User talk:ANaughty

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If you have any questions, feel free to ask me on my talk page. Thanks and happy editing, Alphax &tau;&epsilon;&chi; 09:21, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for edit on Historiography and nationalism
Thanks for the edit. I didn't want to change it myself, since I find myself engaged in all sorts of conflicts with the Iranian/Persian nationalist community on Wikipedia, and any edit I make with any reference to Iran is interpreted as an attack on Iranian sovereignty. Which is why the article you edited exists, because in the course of the controversy I turned up material that didn't fit anywhere else. Zora 2 July 2005 19:24 (UTC)

Egyptian standards of measure
Ancient Egyptian standards of measure evolved over a period of several thousand years as a combination of two systems. One system was essentially decimal and used by surveyors to reestablish the metes and bounds of fields after the innundation or 3ht and to measure long distances such as roads and canals, and the other essentially septenary system was a cannon of proportions developed from body measures used in inscription grids and in the measure of commodities such as rations of grain and beer. Both systems were designed to be accounted for with unit fractions.

You recently removed this phrase from the article saying that it applies to the Sumerian, Greek and Roman standards but not to the Egyptian. Egyptian rope stretchers developed geo desy, geo graphy, and surveying independently due to the need to restablish the metes and bounds of land which was given in return for service. The Greeks and Romans are the ones who tell us it was from the Egyptians that the Greeks and Romans developed their systems so I'm hard pressed to see where you would have any argument with that.

If what you really want to do is add on something more besides to point out that it was the Sumerians who taught surveying to the Egyptians, and that they also passed some ideas on to the Greeks by way of the Persians and Hittites and that this is the more likely source of the Greek Orders of architecture that the Greeks passed on to the Romans and Europeans through their architecture that might be worthy of some discussion of Hatshepset and proto-Doric. Rktect 13:10, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

From: ANaughty There are many indications of a possible link between the sumerian system and all the rest that appeared later in recorded history (persian, greek, roman, hebrew). In fact the egyptian system is the last one that was affected.


 * I agree there are many indications. It would be good to get more specific as to when and where.

Egyptian standards of measure date back to the Old Kingdom. Sumerian standards date back to the Letter of Nanse which would be contemporary with Gudea. Rktect 01:32, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

And there is no mention in greek or latin texts about getting their system by the egyptians. In contrast, most of the units that you have inlcuded as "egyptian" appear in the hellenistic and roman times, i.e. there are imported to egypt.


 * I would respectfully disagree with you there. Herodotus tells us that the schoenus is an Egyptian measure. The aroura is an Egyptian measure. Systemized body measures come to the Greeks from the Sumerians by way of the Akkadians and Hittites. They come to the Romans through the Egyptians Rktect 01:32, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Herodotus tells us, that the egyptian "schoinos" is used in ... Egypt, not in Greece. You have turned it to a greek unit. Read and the previous line in the same paragraph were he tells about the podes of Greece, the parasangs of Persia, and the "schoinos" of Egypt. You know were to find Herodotus I guess. Actually the relation between parasangs and "schoinos" he provides is wrong. We may forgive him since he was refering to a foreign unit. "Schoinos" is half a parasang, not two parasangs. As for aroura, it's found in Homer. Use an ancient greek dictionary. At least 350 years before Herodotus. In fact it means "land", and its first reference in Egypt is in the 5th cent. again. Almost two centruries after the greek mercenaries were given "land" for their services. Do you suspect any link maybe? :) And there is no doubt that the word itself is Indo-european, i.e. imported in Egypt. "Aroura" in Greek, "Area" in English/spanish etc. Dyen's collection probably has it. ANaughty 06:53, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The Schoenus is a Greek word meaning 'measure with a reed' (ie; 60 stadions of orguia). The Egyptian unit it is equivalent to is an itrw. The passage below uses it in Greece. The schoenus is sixty stadia, the parasang 30 stadia (dunatai de ho parasangês triêkonta stadia, ho de schoinos, metron eon Aiguption, hexêkonta stadia.) If you have a cite which says differently it would be interesting to see it. "Aroura means thousands of land" in Egyptian h3 t3


 * Sorry, read it again. You may find all occurances of a word with Perseus (if you don't know that this book of Herodotus refers to egypt). And he is still wrong. A parasang was two schonoi ANaughty 23:47, 30 September 2005 (UTC)


 * for military service. Until the Late Period soldiers were remunerated in kind. At times landless mercenaries received also land grants for the upkeep of their families, in the case of the Libyans this may have been the legal recognition of a fait accompli. This land was often rent free. Successful soldiers received endowments which reflected their rise in the hierarchy. Ahmose, son of Ebana, did well under the first 18th dynasty pharaohs: I have grown old; I have reached old age. Favoured as before, and loved [by my lord], I [rest] in the tomb that I myself made....in Behy. Again I am given by the King of Upper and Lower Egypt ... 60 arura in Hadjaa. In sum ... arura. From the autobiography of Ahmose, son of Ebana James Henry Breasted Ancient Records of Egypt Part Two § 82


 * You can find a rather exhaustive analysis of it in Khaty's "Land Tenure in the Time of the Ramesides" which looks at the h3 t3 and the mh t3 accounts in the Wilbur papyrus which is 19th dynasty. If you want to learn more about it try Gardiners "Egyptian Grammar" or Faulkner's "Middle Egyptian" Greek mercenaries first arrive in Egypt and leave graffiti c 700 BC.

As to the the word's etymology try unclassified Sumerian iku (John Halloran's Sumerian.doc) c 2600 BC, a measured field of side 100 cubits, borrowed into Semitic Akkadian grr (Bartelby's semitic roots) (to plow)c 2100 BC, borrowed into Afro Asiatic Egyptian Akre (pronounced 3kr)the land itself c 1750 BC, (Gardiner and Faulkner) borrowed into PIE *agros  the root of agriculture, (Silvia Luraghe "Old Hittite Sentence Structure" p 32 and note 77, Hittite akir c 1650 BC to plant in the ground, to bury, to be killed or dead), Greek aroura (Gardiner and Gillings) c 700 BC, Latin are and area c 300 BC, Germanic and OE acer, field, (Funk & Wagnall's Standard college dictionary) c 850 AD English acre c 900 AD.

Your source has added "egypt, 1750" which is at least laughable. (I hope it is not your theory.) I'll wait though for some primary source if you have. If you don't present it I will replace it. As for the claim that the Greek word appeared in ... 700BC is apparently a fraud. You may find the word in one of Ventris letter decoding linear B. Most historians know it, since it was one of the first words that were decoded. Which makes your sources (if there are really such sources) questionable. Ventris Letters I noticed you have a special interest in greek topics. ANaughty 00:07, 1 October 2005 (UTC)


 * “Arkadiên m' aiteis: mega m' aiteis: ou toi dôsô.
 * polloi en Arkadiêi balanêphagoi andres easin,
 * hoi s' apokôlusousin. egô de toi outi megairô:
 * dôsô toi Tegeên possikroton orchêsasthai
 * kai kalon pedion schoinôi* diametrêsasthai.”

You ask me for Arcadia? You ask too much; I grant it not. There are many men in Arcadia, eaters of acorns, Who will hinder you. But I grudge you not. I will give you Tegea to beat with your feet in dancing, And its fair plain to measure with a rope.

Herodotus, The Histories book 1, chapter 66, section 2 Other versions: ed. A. D. Godley, in English
 * dôsô toi Tegeên possikroton orchêsasthai
 * kai kalon pedion schoinôi diametrêsasthai. (1.57)


 * So I guess you also agree that "schoinos" is a greek word. ANaughty 23:47, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

"Hatshepset"? You refer to the temple of hatshepsUt? A bit irrelevant don't you think?


 * Not at all. Hatshepsets second mortuary temple is interesting to me as an architect because it is clearly [proto-doric]Rktect 01:32, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I'll check em later ANaughty 06:53, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

The temples in Egypt have similarities with greek and roman structures indeed if that's what you mean. And although they hardly prove anything about measures, I guess you wanted to prove some link between egypt and greece which is after all well documented. But in the opposite direction of what you would apparently like. You better check their dates again. They are either constructed or reconstructed by the Ptolemies.


 * No, Hatshepset was a queen of the 18th Dynasty. Rktect 01:32, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Still irrelevant, but if you insist, "doric" columns do not appear in the classic or archaic age of Greece. Columns appear with the minoan civilization. And doric column, is adopted by the Myceneans, which were apparently influenced by the much more advance Minoan one. You don't need to search. The emblem on the gate of the so-called "Mycenae", which every person of the 20th cent. has seen at least once in some book, has a doric column in its middle. A perfected doric column in fact. Since it seems you have missed all the archaeological findings of the last 2 decades (not bad if you are really an architect) try searching the net about "Minoans" + "Hyksos". I suspect that you will find your possible origin of the egyptian columns. If you really believe that there is a link between egyptian civilization and greece, the direction of the inlfuence is obvious. ANaughty 06:53, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Columns go back to the neolithic, but the Greek orders of architecture (Greek) Doric and Ionian, (Roman) Corinthian and (renaissance) Tuscan are a different story. The column in the Lion Gate is not a doric column but it is a fairly good match for the columns at Knossos being wider at the top than the bottom.


 * [Lion Gate]


 * Egyptian proto-Doric, comes along about the same time as the Minoan columns in Knossos second palace (16th-14th centuries B.C.).


 * [Minoan Columns]

Hmm... you accept the egyptian column as a proto-doric samlple but not the original Mycenaean one. That's a biased approach. Apparently Egyptians copied Minoans (and maybe Myceneans too). ANaughty 00:07, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Both are in the round and free standing and have stylobates, capitals,and entablatures but the columns of the Minoans lack fluting and entasis and so are not Doric. Biblicaly the columns described as supporting the roof in the Forest of Lebanon, fit in better. I don't have to prove the connection between Egypt and Greece, others have done that for us long since, but the fact that you are unaware of some fairly well known facts about the relationship makes me wonder what you have been reading.Rktect 03:08, 25 September 2005 (UTC) Biblicaly? ANaughty 00:07, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Btw I have seen this manipulations of history only in racial superiority theories (e.g. traditional nazism and lately afrocentrism).


 * If you want to you can think of it as an architect superiority theory. Hatshepset's architect

was apparently quite an interesting guy Rktect 01:32, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Anyway, your approach to the subject of ancient metrics is superficial, even if you are not politically motivated. You lack the basic historic knowledge required.


 * As you get to know me better I think you will find I'm neither politically motivated nor lacking in knowledge. As I'm comfortable presenting you with references written in most of the languages involved and have been collecting source material for forty years I doubt you will find me superficial. [babar][mountain fortress] (You can always show me the slides of your field trips in rebuttal)Rktect 01:32, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the place to introduce a knew controversial theory that you can't judje. Either stay away for the edit button or post what is widely accepted. If you can't respect the science of history at least respect us. This place aims to be called as "encyclopaedia" some day, and most users perceive it like this already. ANaughty 19:37, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
 * If you want me to respect you try doing your homework. Cite your sources, I'll cite mine, maybe you can tell me a few things I don't know, ...we'll see. Feel free to cite original sources in their original languages and I'll do the same. Rktect 01:32, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks a million
for taking action in Ancient Egyptian weights and measures. Nice to see a pro among all amateurs; it is sorely needed, I can tell you.

The section on Egyptian measures looked like this in May of this year:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_weights_and_measures&oldid=15857656#Egyptian_system

Do you think this is usable as a starting point?

There are of course other areas where also action is needed. Your comments to this and this would be highly appreciated. -- Egil 15:30, 2 October 2005 (UTC)