User talk:ATC/January—August 2012/Archive 10

GOCE 2011 Year-End Report
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Re: Polly Draper
Sorry for the late response I've been somewhat busy outside Wikipedia. If you're still interested in me copy-editing the Polly Draper article let me know and I'll see to it I do it as soon as possible. :) -- ThinkBlue   (Hit   BLUE)  19:20, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanx, I'd appreciate it if you could! ATC. Talk 22:50, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

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Nomination for deletion of Template:American Idol Top 3
Template:American Idol Top 3 has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Aspects (talk) 03:35, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

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American Idol
Would you mind stop putting details in the lead section that has no relevance to paragraph? The paragraph is about how the winners are voted to be so, other contestants are irrelevant. Important contestants like Jennifer Hudson and Daughtry are already mentioned elsewhere in the lead section, they aren't that important to deserved multiple mentions in the lead. You have to justify why others need to be mentioned, and it is entirely arbitrary, you own opinion of why they deserved to be mentioned. Why not for example Mandisa who has curved out a successful career in Christian music, or Bucky Covington in country music, why not Katharine McPhee who is now a successful TV actress? Why would you think that your criteria would be acceptable by all? That fact that you left out Bo Bice who sold more than Elliot Yamin suggests that the list is entirely arbitrary and your own personal opinion. You will find that fans of all the others will want to put their names in the lead section, and you will have a big mess. This place is full of people who want to list every minute details and people who involved in this show. And please stop trying to bring other irrelevant issues into this. What have I been warned about with regard to this issue? Hzh (talk) 19:58, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * First of all, take a look at American Idol alumni album sales. I listed the top-selling artists. For example, Bo Bice has not sold more albums than Elliot Yamin. Also, I see your point and I have a better resolution. Why don't we find a newer source than the one listed as it is old and outdated for where it mentions Jennifer Hudson, Daughtry, Carrie, and Kelly? Adam Lambert, David Archuleta, and Clay Aiken have also become one of the must successful alumni post Idol and are worth mentioning as well.  ATC . Talk 22:23, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you mean by Bo Bice not selling more albums than Elliot because the page clearly shows he does (746,000 for Bo vs 696,000 for Elliott).


 * The old quote is useful because: 1) it says why Idol is significant as a show compared to other shows, 2) it establishes that contestants from this shows actually become bona fide stars (i.e. it substantiates the previous statement that it "become a recognized springboard for launching the career of many artists as bona fide stars.") That is the important part as far as the show is concerned, not the name of any particular contestant.  As far as I can see, no other non-winner has quite achieved the same level of success as Daughtry and Jennifer Hudson.  To me, only Clay Aiken has sold enough, and Adam Lambert has achieved the kind of media attention to be called successful, but that is entirely my opinion, and unfortunately for us, our opinions don't count on this issue.   This last paragraph is the most important paragraph because it tells us the significance of show in popular culture, but at the moment, someone can delete most of the last paragraph because it has not been substantiate by anyone that they are indeed "bona-fide stars", you are relying on your own opinion which may not be accepted by others.  Your or my or opinion don't matter in this issue, other people who aren't fans of the show would feel they can delete that with good reason because the statement is not substantiate by any sourced quote.


 * You can of course find another suitable quote that does the same thing that gives more up-to-date name. I don't remember a quote that would serve the same purpose, but you are welcome to try. The important thing is that it should be the opinion of someone (or of some significant news outlet or website) worth quoting, or it'll just be the opinion of nobody that others won't accept, and people will starting listing their favorites in the lead section and soon we'll have an entirely lead section full of names, and we then lose sight of what the lead section is for.  Hzh (talk) 23:51, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I found a Billboard chart listing and sourced it. Also you are right my bad! I overlooked Bo Bice! I didn't even think he was up there on the top-selling list! Also, I hope that it doesn't become an issue in the lead of listing favorites. I didn't list Kris Allen who is next after Archuleta on the Billboard list because he has not sold that much albums. See what I added so far and I hope the list doesn't increase! ATC . Talk 01:46, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't see that paragraph staying for long. Since the article gives 24 names, the cut-off point is arbitrary, anyone can add more name, and you'll end up with 24 names and perhaps more.  The list doesn't showed what's significant about their airplay or album or single sales and what criteria they use for ranking.  Kris Allen was so high up presumably because he had a big hit song, but the list was just another person's idea how it should be ranked, and really don't make much sense (Kellie Pickler did better than Kris Allen in every respect but they still list her lower, and in its older list they had William Hung in there).


 * I don't know why there is an obsession with putting names in there, the article is about the show, the success of its alumni is only significant as it illustrates the show's impact on the popular culture, that would be only reason why people like Jennifer Hudson and Daughtry are mentioned there. It is NOT a place for fans of particular idol to highlight their favorites.  In the old version of the page, we get people putting extensive list of achievements of their favorite idol in their post-idol career, and they completely swamped other more important stuff about the show.   This listing of names is not really the purpose of this page, the page should give people an overview and understanding of the show, and its place in popular culture. I prefer the previous quote because no one can deny that non-winners like Daughtry and Jennifer Hudson are important alumni, the difficult arise when you talk about other non-winners like David Archuleta, Kellie Picker or Adam Lambert, because different people can use different criteria, and you can get a different list of names. Hzh (talk) 13:06, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Well Adam Lambert did become as successful as Daughtry and Jennifer Hudson post the show and are worth mentioning. Kris Allen never became successful post the show. ATC . Talk 00:13, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * That, however, is entirely your own opinion. Jennifer Hudson won an Oscar, Adam didn't; Daughtry sold over 6 million albums, Adam only a small fraction of that.  Mandisa's last album actually sold more than Adam's, so it can conceivably be argued that Mandisa is more successful now (and will be more successful in the future) if you are only talking about album sales.  I would agree that Adam can be considered a star if you consider media buzz, but that isn't how you chose to define success in what you put in the lead section.  I have my opinion as to who is or will be successful, but wiki isn't a place for personal opinion, everything that goes in there needs substantiation from independent and acceptable sources.  Since the reference given doesn't have a strict criteria for inclusion, 24 names from the reference can in fact go in there, and you have no valid reason to exclude them if someone else (a Kria Allen fan for instance) want to put his Kris' or other people's name in there. You need a better reference than what's currently there. Hzh (talk) 10:03, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, according to American Idol alumni single sales, they list Kelly as #1, Carrie as #2, Daughtry as #3, Jordin Sparks as #4, and Adam Lambert as #5 which means Lambert is credible to list in the lead. ATC . Talk 23:56, 23 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Again, this is your opinion. Based on singles sales Adam is way behind Jordin Sparks who sold over 10 milllion, he is on the next block of artists selling 3-5 million copies which include Kellie Pickler and Kris Allen.  And why singles sale? Why not radio play? Why not career in TV, films and theatre?  Why not streaming media? You can have a different list depending on your criteria.  It is not for us to pick and choose what we want, wiki is not a place for our personal opinion. Hzh (talk) 13:12, 24 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I moving this to the talk page for other people's opinions. ATC . Talk 22:51, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Your comment at Wikipedia talk:Templates for discussion
Hi ATC. Regarding this comment of yours at Wikipedia talk:Templates for discussion, which template were you commenting about? Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 00:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for August 28
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 * I have fixed this. DH85868993 (talk) 14:02, 28 August 2012 (UTC)