User talk:Abraham, B.S./Archive 15

Precious again
  historic military personalities

Thank you for quality articles on people who made military history in the South Pacific region, such as the aviator Thomas Baker, and for your long-term service as project coordinator, - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:55, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Two years ago, you were the 304th recipient of my Pumpkin Sky Prize, repeated in br'erly style, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:05, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Today: James Newland, thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:16, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Four years ago, you were recipient no. 304 of Precious, a prize of QAI! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:58, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

November 2014
You are receiving this as you have recently added an interwiki link to a page!

Wikidata has been deployed to the English Wikipedia. Wikidata manages interwiki links on a separate project on pages such as this. This means that on Wikipedia articles there is now a language bar on the left hand side of your screen where you can edit and add links rather than adding them into the articles themselves.

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Dl2000 (talk) 00:07, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi Dl2000. Thanks for the information. Maybe in the future a slight indication of the above could be provided in the edit summary, rather than just using rollback, so less informed editors like myself and the IP know why the revert was made? Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 13:02, 15 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Yep, will try to remember that in the future. Probably forgot after reverting the earlier IP edit and following up with this note about Wikidata. Dl2000 (talk) 19:16, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks/capitalisation
Thanks for the work on John Verdun Newton.

Re. the non-capitalisation of ranks: I know that it is WP MOS policy to use lower case wherever possible. Overuse of caps is one of my pet hates and the military overuses upper case like an insecure drill sergeant with the volume stuck at "11". I think it does makes sense to decapitalise abbreviations that are not acronyms, e.g. "SQN LDR", "MAJGEN", VADM → Flt Lt, Maj.-Gen., V. Adm. (etc).

I'm far less convinced, though, about official/formal positions like "Commanding Officer", and even less so about ranks like "Lieutenant". Does the MOS specifically cover this? The problem is, partly, ambiguity: lower-case "commander", "captain", "lieutenant" (etc.) are also nouns with different/more general meaning to the ranks of Commander, Captain (naval) (OF-5), Captain (armed forces) (OF-2) and Lieutenant. This issue is perhaps worst with the captains, e.g. whereas naval Captains usually captain (i.e. command) large vessels, an army Captain may also be captain (commander) of an aircraft or a small vessel.

Grant &#124;  Talk  07:09, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CIV, November 2014
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The Bugle: Issue CV, December 2014
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The Bugle: Issue CVI, January 2015
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The Bugle: Issue CVIII, March 2015
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DYK for Joan Beaumont
Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:01, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Next Australian federal election
Sorry for my rude edit summary - as soon as I posted it I started to suspect that it was a technical bug given how out of character your revert was. Regards, Nick-D (talk) 11:51, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * No problem at all! I would have been confused as well. Just my initial attempt at a revert and explanation resulted in an edit conflict...! Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 11:55, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CIX, April 2015
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The Bugle: Issue CX, May 2015
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The Bugle: Issue CXIV, September 2015
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Liberator Commando
Hi Abraham, B.S., I just saw the edits which had been made to my latest article Commando (aircraft), thanks for sorting some of the stuff out. I am confused by a comment you made "no need for postnominals or so much detail on those who have articles" - only 1 of those named had an article already - Air Marshal Drummond, but now virtually all of the names in the article have square      but seem to connect to nothing, one connects to the wrong person/people. I'm a newbie here, 8 or 9 weeks on Wikipedia and I'm learning the ropes, so any advice appreciated. thanks R44 Researcher1944 (talk) 08:17, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi Researcher1944. I'm not sure why, but it seems another editor (User:Petebutt) has essentially reverted my edits for absolutely no reason and, in doing so, reintroduced errors and linked the other individuals. Peter Drummond is not the only individual mentioned in the article that has a page -- Rupert Brabner does as well, which is why I linked to his article (by correcting a typo, which has now been reintroduced) and reduced the amount of detail on him. So far as I can tell, none of the other individuals are notable enough by Wikipedia's standards to have their own article, so there is no need for them to be linked (via the brackets ). I hope this helps. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 08:46, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Very many thanks, I don't know how I missed Brabner........I specifically searched for him....old age catching up with me I guess. Thanks for your help R44Researcher1944 (talk) 08:58, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Not a problem. :) Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 09:32, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXV, October 2015
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The Bugle: Issue CXVI, November 2015
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The Bugle: Issue CXVII, December 2015
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Infobox military person
For your information, I started a discussion at the template talk about the honoric parameters. Please feel free to weigh in. De728631 (talk) 20:21, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

John Hirst (historian) just improved
A historian friend of mine just edited the John Hirst article. My friend is an expert historian but a novice Wikipedian. I note you edited that article last September. Maybe you could check it out and improve, etc. Regards, Ariconte (talk) 23:06, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXVIII, January 2016
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The Bugle: Issue CXIX, February 2016
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Today's featured article/April 3, 2016
Hi. A summary of a Featured Article you nominated will appear on the Main Page soon. The summary mostly follows the lead section; how does it look? - Dank (push to talk) 17:41, 18 March 2016 (UTC) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:35, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXX, March 2016
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Teddy Sheean
Hi Bryce, great to see you checking in here now and then, hope all is well in your world. Just wondering, was there a reason you never took Sheean to FAC? I suppose there might be a few more mentions of him in recent books but the article generally seems detailed enough given his short life, and neatly tied up now that the Valour Inquiry is long finished (for better or worse). If you did get it to FA, be a nice companion piece for Hec Waller... :-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:59, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi Ian. It's great to hear from you! My apologies for the slow reply, but your post completely slipped my mind amid the great struggle of thesis writing and procrastination. :/ As for Sheean, if I recall correctly there was some concerns raised during the ACR that the article was a little unbalanced, being largely focused on the demise of Armidale with limited information on Sheean's life. As Sheean was only young, there was/is limited information available on his early and personal life. I thought the concerns had some merit, though, so shied away from FAC. I'll give it a think over, though! Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:37, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Redmond Watt
Hi - Congratulations on your continuing excellent work to improve articles on military personnel. Just one observation: I noticed that in the article on Redmond Watt you removed the British Army and UK flags whereas with the article on Chris Brown you left them in. I just wondered what your thinking is here so as to maintain consistency. WP:MILMOS gives some guidance on this and says "When dealing with biographical infobox templates, the most common practice is to use flag icons to indicate allegiance or branch of service, but not place of birth or death." I personally think they add a bit of colour and the US articles almost always show them e.g. Joseph Dunford. What do you think? Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 19:53, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi Dormskirk. My apologies for the inconsistency – just an oversight on my part. While I too don't mind flag icons, it seems we are in the minority as policy has moved in another direction. The Milhist guideline you mention is rather outdated, as official policy at WP:INFOBOXFLAG directs that "flag icons should not be used in infoboxes". It is now standard practice not to include flags in the allegiance or branch fields, and to delink the country of allegiance. Hopefully that helps to clarify things. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 23:53, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi - Thanks for that. I am aware of the bit in WP:INFOBOXFLAG which says "Generally, flag icons should not be used in infoboxes...". You could argue that the use of the word "generally" implies there are exceptions and that more detailed guidance can be found elsewhere. I may be over-interpreting things (to reflect my point of view) but you could argue that WP:MILMOS provides that guidance. There are certainly a huge number of US and UK biographical infoboxes with them in. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 11:04, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi, Dormskirk, we can all be guilty of over-interpreting things to reflect personal points of view... ;-) I do think, though, that nationality flag icons are on the way out in biographies and unit histories. In my experience the exceptions tend to be battles and sporting contests, where there are often many nationalities listed and the little flags are considered worthwhile to reflect that (even when the countries are spelt out). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:22, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi all. My apologies for missing your reply, Dormskirk. But I believe Ian is correct. It has been some time, I think, since a military related biographical article has passed through GA or FA with flag icons, and it does seem to be a dying trend (for better or worse! ;-)). Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:30, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * OK. Thanks, both, for the guidance. Best wishes, Dormskirk (talk) 21:53, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * hi guys, stimulating discussion we have here. i guess i would be one of the few who liked the flags in our military heroes' infobox. is it possible we can exercise some discretion and maybe allow the icon to stay for our most prominent figures? they are like fathers to our nation, and seeing the flag icon beneath their portrait evokes a national pride that sports teams could only dream of. pretty please? 174.3.155.181 (talk) 23:36, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
 * See the discussion below. WP:INFOBOXFLAG (the authority on this) states "flag icons should not be used in infoboxes... they are unnecessarily distracting and give undue prominence to one field among many." This policy was developed over an extended period with involvement from a broad spectrum of editors, so reflects community driven consensus. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 23:52, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
 * hey man, i did. sorry i should have posted my comment there, but both this one and the one below seem similar. i did read that link, what stuck out at me was this quote though:
 * "They are useful in articles about international sporting events, to show the representative nationality of players (which may differ from their legal nationality). Example: List of WPA World Nine-ball Champions."
 * don't you think it's strange that it's admissible for athletes, but not soldiers who represent their country? note i am not seeking to really be controversial here, because i don't think your removals are bad. it's not as clear as it should be. i agree that the flags usually add nothing, and that's why i can't emphasise enough that i'm not seeking to undo most of your hard work (seems you're doing it manually), but rather make exceptions for people like Horatio Nelson and Arthur Wellesley because they were more than soldiers (especially the latter, who was prime minister/leader of the lands). as i wrote this, i also did notice this passage here which states:
 * "Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject actually represents that country, government, or nationality – such as military units, government officials, or national sports teams. In lists or tables, flag icons may be relevant when such representation of different subjects is pertinent to the purpose of the list or table itself."
 * thus, is there any way you would re-consider retaining the icons for viscount nelson and sir arthur? surely there are a few who most definitely represented our nation at large, for extended periods of time? 174.3.155.181 (talk) 00:01, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
 * The exceptions refer to specific unit or list articles, such as 2012 Summer Olympics medal table, not biographical articles. The exception in the case of the example provided appears to be for two reasons: a) flags are commonly used to denoted national representatives in international sporting events b) it can allow for quick identification among a lengthy list of nations. Neither of these are relevant to biographical articles. The nation (typically only the one) is clearly indicated and identifiable without flag icons in biographical infoboxes. Therefore, per WP:INFOBOXFLAG, flag icons should not appear in biographical articles. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 00:14, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
 * ahh i see! NUTS! oh well. thanks :) 174.3.155.181 (talk) 00:28, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
 * No problem. :) Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 00:46, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXXI, April 2016
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DYK for Robert Walls (admiral)
Gatoclass (talk) 15:07, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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British Army officers
Hi there, mind me asking why you're removing the 🇬🇧 United Kingdom and from articles such as Philip Gregson-Ellis? Personally I feel it brightens up the page and without it the page looks rather dull.. I'm just curious though
 * Hi Berserker276. As I have noted in edit summaries, WP:INFOBOXFLAG advises against the use/addition of flag icons in infoboxes as "they are unnecessarily distracting and give undue prominence to one field among many." I personally don't mind the flags, but the official stance has been inclined towards non-use of such icons for some time.
 * Speaking of edit summaries, it is a good idea to read them to understand other editors' rationales for changes. For instance, WP:OVERLINKING advises against overlinking in articles. This includes "major geographic features" (such as countries), "everyday words understood by most readers in context" and "common occupations" (i.e. army officer). Please note that you have a tendency to overlink, and on a number of occasions have unjustifiably reverted other editors' correcting edits. It might also be a good idea to have a look at WP:NOPIPE. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:19, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
 * As you might gather from my edit summaries when I've reverted the addition of flag icons (and unnecessary links), I endorse Bryce's comments. I used to include the icons in bios myself when it was the fashion, but it isn't any longer.  While we're at it, a reminder that when it comes to year ranges,  "1939–45" (for example) is the MOS-compliant way, not "1939–1945". Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:15, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi - Sorry to be a pain on this but almost all US and UK military bios have flags. Just look at Mark A. Milley for one. So I don't think it is right to say they are out of fashion: rather they are almost certainly the norm for US and UK officers. Also, while I know WP:MILMOS was written some time ago, it gives some guidance on this and says "When dealing with biographical infobox templates, the most common practice is to use flag icons to indicate allegiance or branch of service, but not place of birth or death." I really do not think they do any harm. Dormskirk (talk) 11:02, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd say that where there's a conflict between WP:MOS and WP:MILMOS then the former should override the latter, and clearly flag icons are not in fashion according to WP:MOS, per WP:INFOBOXFLAG. I hear your opinion that they do no harm, but personally I tend to put flag icons in the same boat as medal ribbons -- pretty pictures that don't particularly belong in an encyclopedia, and are redundant given that they're accompanied by text and links to the relevant articles. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:03, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
 * OK. Fair enough. Thanks. Dormskirk (talk) 23:27, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXXII, May–June 2016
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The Bugle: Issue CXXIII, July 2016
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Register office
Registry office is a common misspelling of register office - they come under the come uner the control of the General Register Office! .86.156.67.119 (talk) 11:43, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Edit requested
Regarding the Edward Sismore page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Sismore

the link to Reginald Reynolds is incorrect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Reynolds

I am a friend of the Reginald Reynolds who was the pilot with Ted Sismore. Reg is still alive, lives in Toronto and is not the Reginald Reynolds for that link. There isn't a wiki page for him but I think there should be. I can provide some links, but if you search on "Reginald Reynolds DFC" you'll get some information for this particular Reg Reynolds. I'm not familiar with how to post for Wikipedia edits. Do I check back to this page for replies? With thanks. 104.247.234.247 (talk) 16:14, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Today's featured article/August 22, 2016
Hi, here's another one of yours at TFA, I'm working on it now. - Dank (push to talk) 00:52, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXXIV, August 2016
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Peter Dennis
Re this change: are you actually contemplating writing a bio of Peter? Hawkeye7 (talk) 04:53, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi Hawkeye. No plans as of yet, no. But Dennis is certainly worthy of one. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 04:59, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXXV, September 2016
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Military history WikiProject coordinator election
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The Bugle: Issue CXXVI, October 2016
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Your GA nomination of Wilbur Dartnell
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Your GA nomination of Alfred Shout
The article Alfred Shout you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Alfred Shout for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Krishna Chaitanya Velaga -- Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk) 03:21, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXXVII, November 2016
The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here. If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. Your editors, Ian Rose (talk) and Nick-D (talk) 11:30, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

New Challenge for Oceania and Australia
Hi, WikiProject Oceania/The 10,000 Challenge and WikiProject Australia/The 5000 Challenge are up and running based on The 10,000 Challenge which has currently produced over 2300 article improvements and creations. The Australia challenge would feed into the wider region one and potentially New Zealand could have a smaller challenge too. The main goal is content improvement, tackling stale old stubs and important content and improving sourcing/making more consistent but new articles are also welcome if sourced. I understand that this is a big goal for regular editors, especially being summertime where you are, but if you'd like to see large scale quality improvements happening for Oceania and Australia like The Africa Destubathon, which has produced over 1700 articles in 5 weeks, sign up on the page. The idea will be an ongoing national editathon/challenge for the region but fuelled by a series of contests to really get articles on every province and subject mass improved. The Africa contest scaled worldwide would naturally provide great benefits to Oceania countries, particularly Australia and attract new editors. I would like some support from existing editors here to get the Challenges off to a start with some articles to make doing a Destubathon worthwhile and potentially bring about hundreds of improvements in a few weeks through a contest! Cheers.♦ --MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:12, 24 November 2016 (UTC)