User talk:Acad Ronin/Copyright

Example 1 - Scorpion
Acad, I'd like to establish how bad the problem is, and for that I need your help. What I could do is just tag the articles for rapid deletion on the grounds of copyright infringement, but I don't think that would be right, for at least half a dozen reasons. I'm sure you'll agree. I'd like to look at one example, and ask you to show why there isn't a copyright infringement.

Here are three quotes:

From HMS Saracen (1804):

On the night of 11 January 1810, Captain Vollant Ballard directed Stanfell to attempt to cut out a French national brig from her anchorage off Basse-Terre. When he stood close in, a square-rigged vessel was seen clearing the north point of the bay so he went off in pursuit. During the chase the wind fell to a near calm and Scorpion's crew had to use the sweeps for four hours before she could close within pistol-shot of the French quarry. The action lasted for two to two-and-a-half hours before the enemy, which had been dismasted, struck her colours.

From Age of Sail (written by Michael Phillips c.1995 - 2007):

On the night of 11 January 1810 Capt. STANFELL was directed by Capt. BALLARD of BLONDE to attempt to cut out a French national brig from her anchorage off Basse-Terre. When he stood close in a square-rigged vessel was seen clearing the north point of the bay so he went off in pursuit. During the chase the wind fell to a near calm and SCORPION had to be swept for four hours but eventually she closed within pistol-shot and brought the French brig to an action which lasted for two hours before the enemy was completely dismasted.

The text I find in James is similar, and may well be a source for Phillips:

On the 11th of January Captain Volant Vashon Ballard, of the 38-gun frigate Blonde, commanding a British squadron, consisting, besides that frigate, of the sloops Scorpion, Cygnet, and Pultusk, Captains Francis Stanfell, Edward Dix, and John M'George, and gun-brig Attentive, Lieutenant Robert Carr, stationed off Basse-terre bay, island of Guadaloupe, directed the Scorpion to bring out a French brig-corvette at anchor near the shore. At 9 p.m., while standing in to execute this service, the Scorpion discovered the object of her attack, which was the French 16-gun brig-corvette Oreste, Lieutenant Jean-Baptiste-Anselme Mousnier, just clearing the north point of the bay. The British brig immediately made all sail in chase, but had very soon to use her sweeps on account of the fall of the wind.

What I need you to tell me is: do you have any other source from which the text from Age of Sail was copied, and which is public domain?

Shem (talk) 22:06, 23 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Shem, As far as I can tell, everything in Phillips is from other sources. I just did some revisions to three Cruizer-class brig sloops and found that much of the information came from Marshall, some from the Naval Chronicle, and some from other places, or at least were mentioned in other places. Often, an incident may be mentioned in the Naval Chronicle, The Gentleman's magazine, and the The Edinburgh (something or other), to name just some of the sources. All of these sources are pre-1850, with Marshall, for instance, having been published in 1823-35. I don't know if that makes it public source, but I don't see any point to blanking info when Phillips was himself copying text verbatim. The problem is now one of finding Phillip's sources and bypassing him. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 23:10, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

And that's the key point; if the text was copied by Phillips verbatim, from a source published by an author who's been dead for 70 years, then we can use it freely. If Phillips paraphrased his sources, then his text is copyright, and we have a big problem with the articles you've created or amended using his text. I'd appreciate it if you'd investigate this particular example, find the verbatim words from a public domain source, and satisfy my conscience that we're not looking at a copyright infringement. Please bear with me. Shem (talk) 23:18, 23 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Shem, I am stuck. I can find lots of sources for the facts, but not verbatim ones. So, what do we do now? Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:03, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Size of the problem
OK - so the answer is that the problem is quite bad, because it represents a copyright violation. The next question for you is "how big is the problem"? I note that you've created 280-odd pages, and edited about 2,000. How many of these are ship articles that include cut-and-paste text, and how many non-ship articles include similar issues? Oh, and best have a read of Copyright violations. Shem (talk) 06:31, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Shem, First, the damage is mostly in Age of Nelson ship articles because that's the only place there was Phillip's database as a source. Even there, there are articles I created that are clean. For instance, all of the Ballahoo and Cuckoo-class schooners articles are OK; I checked. Phillips had little or nothing to say about them. Second, any material post-1820 is OK, again because Phillips didn't cover that period. The Cruizer-class brig-sloops are a mixed bag. I have started going through them and while pretty much all of the shorter ones are OK, again because Phillips didn't have much to say about them, the longer ones are more of an issue. In some cases I copied him almost verbatim, but cited him as the source. In others, there are paragraphs where I did not cite him. I am going through them to find where I can go through him to the original source (and am finding some places where copied verbatim), but generally am rewording the stuff. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 11:15, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Way ahead
Well, I see four options: I can see that you're already working on the Cruizer class to remove violations, and I acknowledge the point about the Ballahoo and Cuckoo-class schooners, and the out-of-period ships. Please let me know which of the above options you favour, and if you want to go for option 3, how long you think it will take. Yours, Shem (talk) 18:43, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Do nothing - not really an acceptable approach
 * 2) Amend all the articles involved to remove the copyright violations - a long, drawn out business, and one which continues to present copyright violations to the public while the work is in progress.  Most, probably all, of the work will fall to you.
 * 3) Blank the offending sections - again, a lot of work, although not quite as bad.  This will not, however, go un-noticed, which will mean it rapidly becomes option 4.
 * 4) Notify the community at Wikipedia talk:Copyright problems and let them deal with it, which may include a fair amount of blanking, and will draw your name through the mud.

Shem, I favor the second option. My screw up - my duty. It is not as long a process as it might look because so many articles (the non-Nelson era ship articles and the ones where Phillips had little or nothing to say, like the schooners) are unaffected. In the meantime, while copywright violations will persist until cured, as I specialize in the lower end of the size distribution of vessels, most are of no interest to any one. And I working on it, as you noticed.Acad Ronin (talk) 21:30, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Acad, I understand entirely, although my conscience still bothers me that this should be reported. I'm away, on & off, for a while, but I'll pop back in from time-to-time. If I spot any other of your articles where this remains an unresolved problem, I'll jot them down here merely as a convenient to-do list, if that suits you. Yours, Shem (talk) 08:14, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Shem, First, thanks for extending the toleration. As you can see, I am working my way through the Cruizer-class articles. The reason I didn't cite Phillips was that because he didn't cite his sources, doing so did not create verifiability. What I am trying to do, and it is taking time, is to find his sources and cite to them, resorting to him only when I can't find them. Phillips clearly must have had access to copies of the Naval Gazette that are not online. Please do let me know when you find problems and I will deal with them. I am hoping to find most first, but a second pair of eyes wont hurt. Second, blanket blanking would be a nuclear option that would destroy a lot of good info that is clean. Much of my editing is purely stylistic, gerammatical, or proofreading. Furthermore, there are places where I have added substantive info that I have paraphrased and sourced. Blanking paragraphs selectively is as almost as laborious as rewording them and citing to Phillips. Third, in going to Phillips's sources, I am finding the occasional case where I think his reading of the text is a little misleading or wrong. Lastly, nice work on HMS Cruizer. When I get done cleaning up my mess I will revert to it and start trying to find where Phillips got his info there too. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 15:01, 26 September 2010 (UTC)