User talk:AcadiaMagic

I am new to this and have been trying to figure out the correct procedure. My name is Greg Hartford. I live in Maine and have devoted the last several years to photographing and compiling information about the Acadia National Park area in Maine along with many of the surrounding communities. This has been compiled online at AcadiaMagic.com and, because of its broad and comprehensive scope, it has lots of content that is relevant to many different areas. It is used by people all over the world to plan their vacations, to relive their experiences, and to share with others. I just happen to often use the user name of AcadiaMagic because I am the one associated with the work. My entries were not meant as spam but provide very useful content, at the very least as relevant as those external link sources that I have seen. Is there someone that I may ask some questions of? AcadiaMagic 03:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I may have violated one of Wikipedia's core guiding principles, WP:BITE. If so, I apologize. Let me try to get things off on a better foot here...

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 * That said, though, posting similar links to that many different articles is questionable. I'd suggest going over to the Village pump and getting a second opinion.--Sar e kOfVulcan 07:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

AcadiaMagic - New Contributor
Thank you SarekOfVulcan for responding. It is a big ocean out there when one feels like they are on a small raft. I see that you are in the Orono area? I am in Bangor but lived on MDI and close by for a few years. I noticed that you play music. My instrument is guitar and I've enjoyed writing and recording.

I admit that AcadiaMagic.com does not fit into the usual mold. Perhaps I have been a bit crazy in the scope of coverage. Please allow me to make a few comments about it.

From early on in my youth when my family visited Bar Harbor and Acadia National Park, I developed a passion for the area. As an adult living away in Florida, this passion grew. Once I returned to Maine in 1999, I began photographing Acadia National Park, Bar Harbor, and many of the surrounding villages and points of interest. I was a web consultant (sales) for a local ISP at the time and came to know the particular needs of the local bed and breakfasts and other businesses that relied on tourism. This combined with my own innate curiosity about the subject.

Most web sites available on the area were narrow in scope. Even the local chambers focused on their sphere of concern. None really saw or presented it from the perspective of what the visitor might be interested in. For me, this was the beginning of a vision of how it could be, if I was willing to take on the task. Because I have a background in visuals, the presentation evolved largely around this aspect, which turned out to be a good thing because it created ambiance in the developing visual medium of the Internet.

Like Wikipedia, AcadiaMagic.com is fired by a passionate vision. It is also a growing thing (though on a much smaller scale than Wikipedia). Through spring and summer of this year, I have been covering the Schoodic region of Maine. As I'm sure you know, it has the only part of Acadia National Park that is on the mainland. Little villages are intertwined with national park land in a symbiotic way. This is part of the concept of AcadiaMagic.com - to try and show this aspect and allow for individual discovery as one explores online. I believe that this is in line with the concept and vision of Wikipedia. Yet, one leans toward the written word while the other leans toward the visual aspect.

For many of the little villages I have covered, what I've created and compiled far surpasses what is currently available. The communities cannot afford such a thing. In many ways, AcadiaMagic.com is a private version of what a chamber or the state office of tourism would provide. The big difference has been that with AcadiaMagic.com, it has been one person doing everything with the occasional input of a few select and knowledgeable people.

In looking through Wikipedia, I found that, if information about a town or village has been entered, there was not an entry for an external link or information source. I was able to provide one that would benefit the visitor as well as the community. This should be a good thing. Visitors often contact me to express gratitude for the scope and depth of content and the manner in which it has been presented. Through visitor's comments, I also learn of something that I should try and add. There are several of these on my agenda for next spring when I will begin photographing again.

So, yes... There really are many relevant content pages at AcadiaMagic.com that I believe would benefit visitors to Wikipedia. By being inovative and having a larger vision of what content should and can be, and doing the work to make it available, should not be penalized. I am confident that, if you or anyone else takes a few minutes to surf through the content (there are over 1,200 pages), you will see its value and understand that it is not spam and was not contributed in a covert or malicious way. I hope that you will. Please offer me feedback, suggestions, and guidance at anytime. I want to do the right thing. AcadiaMagic 17:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Got your note, Greg. You make a good case for your links here, but I'm still uncomfortable with them. I don't think we need to go into the dispute resolution process, but I would like another opinion or two before proceeding. There are a couple of links up above that point to places such as the New Contributor's Help Page and the Village Pump, where people might be able to get better answers.
 * Another possibility would be for you go to Dispute resolution instead, and ask for a third opinion or request for comment, but I'd suggest the other places first.--Sar e kOfVulcan 02:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * PS -- I'm not in Orono, I'm actually near Seattle, but will be moving back to Maine soon.

Pictures
It would be much more useful to the project if you released some pictures under CC by sa (attribution required, our most restrictive liscence, you retain copyright) rather than filling up articles with links that promote your own website. In fact, posting links to your own website is not acceptable here unless you get consensus from the other editors on those articles. Because you are also offering services on your site, it qualifies as advertising and advertising here is strictly prohibited. Please consider uploading select pictures, it is a far more useful contribution to the project. pschemp | talk 02:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I second that -- I've uploaded a few myself. Granted, you're a much better photographer than I am, but... :-) --Sar e kOfVulcan 02:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * A little note. Good pictures get famous here. I've even had requests to include mine in textbooks. You can't beat that publicity. pschemp | talk 02:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the suggestions. Many publishers have contacted me through AcadiaMagic.com as well. Perhaps I have begun the process incorrectly. In trying to figure the guidelines, I have also been trying to discover the logic as well. The comment by pschemp that a web site that offers services qualifies it as an advertiser (and is prohibited) should be enforced equally if true. For instance, I looked at the external links on the main Wikipedia page for Acadia National Park and discovered that, of the 10 listed, 2 are National Park Service links, 7 are definitely commercial web sites selling products and or providing links (for a fee) to other companies that provide products or services, and 1 external link is to a web site that is likely in the pre-commercial phase, trying to build traffic. It is not clear to me how the 7 are more acceptable than AcadiaMagic.com, which has very few ads, no Google ads, no banner ads across the top, etc. It does provide links to bed and breakfasts, hotels, etc. that are relevant to the area. One of the external links is even to a web site that is based in the same market and has actually copied the concept and approach that AcadiaMagic.com uses to compete with it. If, like SarekOfVulcan suggests in the post below, the issue is that I have signed up as a contributor, and this creates a conflict, then I understand what I need to do as it places AcadiaMagic.com at a disadvantage. Suggestions or comments are welcomed. AcadiaMagic 04:44, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Links get added all the time. Many of them may not be appropriate, but this is a wiki and until someone goes by and checks them, they may stay in an article for a while. That doesn't mean they should be there or meet our policy. Both the fact that this is your own website, (and Sarek is right, that's a direct quote from policy, not a suggestion), and the fact that it is a buisness are considerations in whether the links are appropriate, but the decision is ultimately left to the editors of the pages. Your unwillingness to release select photos under a free license also shows that you are more interested in commercial profit than helping to build a free encyclopedia, another strike against you in my opinion. WP:EL is the policy and the simple answer for you is, the editors of the pages get to decide, not you since it is your website. pschemp | talk 04:59, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Hello, pschemp. Where in what I wrote did you read that I said I was unwilling to release any select photos? The additional comment about me being more interested in commercial profit is a bit judgmental and unwarranted don't you think? Are we separating human kind into the haves and have-nots here - those who are independently wealthy and do not need to work or support themselves as opposed to those common laborer types? How many people can afford to create a large web site with relevant content, hundreds of photographic images, pay all associated costs, and spend 70 plus hours each week just to be able to say they gave it away for free? Even a chamber of commerce is paid by area businesses to advertise their products and services. I've known lots of teenagers who felt that everything should be free. 205.209.93.143 06:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * You ignored that part of the question, and said you already had lots of publishers contacting you. To me that implied you weren't interested. You obviously care about your business more than this project. The purpose of wikipedia is not however to help your business. Certainly you are allowed to do whatever you want to support yourself but we are also allowed to not accept advertising. All the editors here work for free so that's not such a strange concept. It is after all, the free encyclopedia, not the encyclopedia for use for people to promote their businesses. I wasn't asking you to donate your entire life's work either. Free information is what's valued the most here, and if that goes against your values I'm sorry. Additionally, I'm not a teenager, but you can believe that if it makes you feel better. And Jimmy Wales, who founded this project on the concept that everything should be free isn't a teenager either. pschemp | talk 06:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Hello, pschemp, It seems to me that my written words are being interpreted differently than I intended. Your take on it is different than what I said: "Thanks for the suggestions. Many publishers have contacted me through AcadiaMagic.com as well." It is beginning to feel like I stepped into a hornet's nest. I now understand what some lawyer was speaking of in his comments in a Wikipedia discussion area. Thanks for setting things straight. AcadiaMagic 06:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Well I'm sorry you are so offended by us, but the fact is, this is a project about free information. The insertion of outside links to unfree information is not a terribly valuable addition to the project. You say I've misinterpreted your words and intentions, but you have yet to try explain what they actually are, instead calling me judgemental, and a teenager. Communication goes both ways. I've explained why I said what I said, but all you've done is acted hurt without trying to explain your position. No one here can read your mind so unless you make an attempt to clarify we can't know. This community take spamming and advertising very very seriously and anyone who comes in and starts activities that resemble this is not going to be treated with kid gloves. If you want to play the "obviously it was a mistake trying to discuss here" game, that's fine, but you really didn't try to communicate. pschemp | talk 13:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia guidelines
Greg, I checked with some other people, and one of them pointed out that your links seem to violate the external links policy. Gheck out item 3 under "Links normally to be avoided": Does this help explain why I felt the links should be removed?--Sar e kOfVulcan 02:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * A page that you own or maintain, even if the guidelines above imply that it should be linked. This is because of neutrality and point-of-view concerns; neutrality is an important and difficult objective at Wikipedia. If your page is relevant and informative, mention it on the talk page and let unbiased Wikipedia editors decide whether to add the link.
 * Thanks, SarekOfVulcan for the additional information. I actually made the error of trying to combine dialogue in the discussion about Pictures above but ended up stirring something up. It appears that I made a mistake by contacting Wikipedia in the first place. AcadiaMagic 07:01, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * If your intention was to just insert 15 links to your website, then yes, it was a mistake coming here. Though since you won't state what your intentions are, we just have to guess. Without an explanation, wrong assumptions can be made, but there's nothing we can do about that without more information. pschemp | talk 13:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * For me, the succession of events began in mid-October when I came upon a Wikipedia page about Schoodic Peninsula. I noticed that not much information was there. I then searched for Acadia National Park and discovered much more information including an external link section where a variety of web sites were listed, many of which were normal commercial web sites. I was a bit surprised at this so began to read more to try and learn the procedure for being listed here. I was surprised to learn that anyone can add information to a discussion page.

On October 25, I registered as I thought I needed to do and then added a paragraph to the discussion area of the Schoodic Peninsula page asking if a volunteer would review AcadiaMagic.com and consider it for inclusion in an external links list of outside information resources (which did not have any links at that time). The next day, October 26, I checked back to see if there was a response and there was not. So, on that day, I entered the same request on the Acadia National Park page. AcadiaMagic.com has a lot of information on both areas in Maine. I also attempted to answer a question asked by a visitor named Keenan Pepper about the Pink Cliffs at that time, and wondered whether I could be useful in this regard for the Acadia National Park region.

I checked back many times over a two-week period to see if there was a response and there was not. I wasn't sure why but felt volunteers must be very busy. I then read some more, and was surprised again to learn that anyone can add information to the content pages. My incorrect assumption was that, perhaps the external links had been added by the businesses themselves and this was the way I was supposed to do it. I have absolutely no doubts as to the value to the reader if my links were added because I do have relevant and useful information, both written and visual. This information is also available for free, without charge to the viewer.

Once I figured out how to add external links on November 7, I searched for a few other pages that were relevant to some of the content I have. Again, I was surprised to see how little information was on some of the pages, and most did not have any external link lists as some of the more developed pages. I figured that it would be a useful addition to add an external link where there was none. I also began wondering about the photos and other images I was seeing but had not learned about that process yet.

By the next day, I checked back and saw that all had been removed. I began looking through the Wikipedia interface to try and find something about what had happened, if I had done something incorrectly, and if there was some dialogue or questions directed at me about the additions. Eventually, I came upon some dialogue saying that my entries were considered spam. This concerned me because I am not a spammer, AcadiaMagic.com has legitimate and useful content, and several other business web sites that had less relevant content and were outwardly selling services or products, were listed. The main thing that AcadiaMagic.om provides is free information, images of many areas, and ambiance. It also happens to provide lodging information for the visitor. Most of these businesses pay a minimal fee to be listed and this allows me to be able to continue the work. Occasionally, someone contacts me asking to purchase a particular photograph or use one in a publication. To be truthful, this part is actually a time drain and I do not push to promote it. My main drive has been, and continues to be, to add legitimate and useful content.

Once dialogue began with you, it seemed that the situation was starting to turn around, at least someone was communicating with me, and you even went so far as to apologize and consider that a rush to judgment might have been made regarding someone that was new to Wikipedia. I appreciated this. I still wanted to arrive at a clear understanding of what procedures to follow, what was considered a legitimate and useful contribution, and of course, receive a fair and unbiased evaluation on AcadiaMagic.com's usefulness as an outside information resource. Having observed some current Wikipedia pages, I had no reason to believe that it would be considered inappropriate.

Your mention that Wikipedia policy tries to protect against a potential conflict of interest led me to believe that, by registering as a contributor, I created a conflict with having AcadiaMagic.com content listed or noted as an external informational resource. This made more sense to me as to a reason than the one about advertising presented by pschemp, because I've seen many commercial web sites listed as external resources on Wikipedia pages. I had to point this discrepancy out. In so doing, the tone of the responses became more aggressive and a bit highbrow. Personally, I have a difficult time reconciling how this tone falls in line with Wikipedia ideology. It seems a bit over-zealous compared to what normally should be expected of an administrator.

So, if becoming a Wikipedia contributor means that any content pages of AcadiaMagic.om are to be considered inappropriate because of conflict of interest, then I understand your position. It should just come down to me deciding which is more important, my livelihood or the privilege of giving content, images and time away for free. However, if and when I am told that AcadiaMagic.com content is inappropriate because the web site has revenue sources in it, while other like web sites are currently listed on Wikipedia, then I am bound to question this selective judgment and enforcement of the rules for whatever the reason. This perspective and stance gives listed businesses an unfair market advantage and penalizes AcadiaMagic.com. I do have a concern about this and Wikipedia may as well. AcadiaMagic 18:58, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * As a Wikipedia contributor, you can delete information as easily as you can add it. If you feel that the existing links are inappropriate and violate the rules as we've explained them to you, yank them. If they get re-added, the Dispute Resolution process can help decide if they should be kept out permanently. Read WP:POINT thoroughly before you start down this road, though.--Sar e kOfVulcan 21:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

"it places AcadiaMagic.com at a disadvantage"
This is an encyclopedia. It is not a forum for you to try to get advantages for your website. If you don't understand that, please don't contribute.

If, on the other hand, you love the Acadia region and want to show other people how beautiful it is, please do.

Either way, good luck.--Sar e kOfVulcan 21:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry... But, this was not the point that I was making. It is more in line to say that, whatever the rule, it needs to be implemented evenly. I did not say or imply that I was seeking an advantage either. My point was that, to allow the link to one web site and not another, is to give a market advantage to the one whose link is there as opposed to the one whose link is not. The advantage has to do with not only increasing direct referrals and exposure from Wikipedia to the linked web site, but also to improving the linked web site's ranking with certain search engines such as Google. It should also be noted that with certain search engines, Wikipedia gets an improved ranking when it links to web sites that are relevant to the content on the page the link is found. Good linking "rubs off" and benefits both as well as ultimately the visitor. AcadiaMagic 01:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)