User talk:Acps110/Archives/2010/December

&larr; November 2010 | December 2010 | January 2011 &rarr;

Local vs. Express
"There were many errors in your duplication of the services table."
 * I agree that is duplicative, but it does provide unique information useful to Wikipedia users. It adds information (sorting by express and local lines) that is not featured elsewhere on the site. If I made errors, I welcome you to make the changes or suggest that I make the changes instead of deleting the information entirely. Please be constructive instead of destructive.

"The most irritating one was your confusion about the difference between a service and a line. Services are numbered or lettered, lines have names. Please see New York City Subway nomenclature for more information."
 * On paper/technicality, I am sure that you are right. I don't really fully understand what you are saying. In slang terms (and real life), people don't say I am going to ride the "Broadway- 7 Local SERVICE." In practice, you would use the words "train" and "line" interchangeably saying the "1 line" or "Broadway- 7 Local line".  In reality, a route of a NYC Subway has BOTH a number/letter and line name assigned to it.  Ex. The "1" train is also known as "Broadway- 7 Avenue Local."  Please clarify, if I am missing something and you disagree specifically with something I've said.


 * The Wikipedia page that you refer to is in fact wrong according to MTA's own website. Ex. The Wikipedia page calls "B" a service, when in fact, http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/index.html, lists "B" as a line (ie- 'subway LINE information').


 * If I understand correctly, according to the Wikipedia page that you referenced, line names are sections, services are train routes along several different lines. Again, I don't dispute that you are officially right, but on-the-street and even on the official website, this language is not used.

"Also, many services can't be classified as local or express due to the fact that they do both, just on different portions of the route.
 * I also don't understand the point you are making about express/local. As I noted in the chart that I created, with 2 exceptions that are both, every line is classified as either being express or local. Ex. The "4" line is classified as "Express." http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/fourline.htm


 * Assuming you are right about local/express complexity, then please suggest a better way to capture the complexity of this.

"The NYCTA removed double letters from all the local services in the 1980s because of that confusion. Acps110 (talk • contribs) 20:02, 1 December 2010 (UTC)"
 * I am not sure what you mean by "double letters." I think you mean that 1 line can be both a local/express route. Again, according to MTA's own website, 2 lines, including both the "B" line and "6" have both local and express components. http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/bline.htm http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/6d.htm
 * Taylorluker (talk) 17:56, 6 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Double Letter's existed in the past for local services. I pretty much agree with Acps when it comes to the rest.-- iGeM  iN  ix  12:32, 8 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Now you're starting to get it. The line is the physical railroad that a service travels. Please don't use the slang 1 line on Wikipedia because it just muddies the waters unnecessarily. The words service, route and train can be used interchangeably.
 * Correct, each service has a letter/number, trunk line name, and trunk line color assigned to it.
 * Now to the heart of classifying trains as local or express. With the exception of the 1, 6 local, 7 local, C, G, L, M and R, all other trains have some portions of local service, and portions of express service. (Even then, the C runs on the Eighth Ave express tracks between Manhattan and Brooklyn, and the M runs on the Queens Blvd express tracks between Queens and Manhattan.) A better way to capture this is the Service pattern section in each individual service page. For example, this section of the N train. That listing includes what tracks are used and more importantly when.
 * The double letters are a historical curiosity now, but also serve this example as to what's local and what's express. When the IND was built, the services included both single and double letters; A, AA, B, C, CC, D, E, EE, F, GG, HH. A double letter indicated a local service. However, that pattern broke down when the CC and others began running express. BMT services also had double letters from 1967 to 1985; JJ, KK, LL, QB, QT, QJ, RR, RJ, TT. In most cases the second letter was dropped to create the services we have now. Others (AA, KK, QJ, RJ, TT, etc.) no longer operate. It is much less confusing now that the second letter has been dropped!
 * Unfortunately, if you want to sort by express and local trains, you can't because of the complexity of routes in the NYC Subway. Acps110 (talk • contribs) 12:45, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * One final aside, the J and Z are named incorrectly because there are no express tracks on the Nassau Street line. I can't rename them because Wikipedia exists to document things as they are; not as what I want them to be. Acps110 (talk • contribs) 12:45, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

VCP/242 platform length
Re this: You certainly have the expertise, so I defer to you. I was just repeating what the NRHP nom says, but those things can and have been wrong about other things.

However, it seems from Van Cortlandt Park – 242nd Street (IRT Broadway – Seventh Avenue Line) the satellite photo Google uses that there's room for a bit more than five cars on the side platforms ... after all, the photo shows about six. And I'm not sure there's that great a length difference between the center and side platforms ... they both end roughly around the same point at the crew quarters building (It does, however, look like the space for the center platform goes on to about twice the side platforms' length, but south of the crew quarters there is no platform. Daniel Case (talk) 05:05, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The reason I caught it was that 466 feet is less than a full length train. Each car of a standard 10-car train is 51' 4" long, so a full length train is about 513 feet long. This is also part of the reason that the side platforms are closed. In this video you can see that the last car of the train protrudes slightly from under the crew quarters, right at the end of the island platform. Thanks for expanding some of the NYC Subway station articles! I've certainly enjoyed reading your expansions. Acps110 (talk • contribs) 10:23, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, didn't know that. It seems like the writer of the NRHP nom might have been working from some original engineering documents ... perhaps they had shorter trains back then. As for the appreciation, you're welcome! Daniel Case (talk) 16:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The IRT locals were originally 5-cars and the expresses have always been 10-cars. All local stops south of Grand Central on the Lexington Ave line and local stops north of Times Square on the Bway-7th Ave line were originally constructed as 5-car length. What is now the 1, originally came out of the Lenox Yard and switched to the local north of 96th Street. Some expresses switched to the local to continue up Broadway and others went up the White Plains Rd line. In the 1940s and 1950s, they lengthened the local platforms to allow all IRT trains to become 10-cars long. They also switched the Bway-7th Ave Express trains with the Lenox local to remove the delays caused by half the trains having to switch tracks at 96th Street. This is also why South Ferry and City Hall loops have been closed; both were only 5-cars long and couldn't easily be lengthened. Acps110 (talk • contribs) 23:06, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Bullets on bus route pages
The reason I created and used NYCS box was because the bullet method is not accessible. It would be nice if you could implement the box into the line-by-line templates, though. Please reconsider your use of bullets. &mdash; Train2104 (talk • contribs • count) 18:57, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * How do we make the bullets accessible? My main reason for converting to the templates was to correct the errors that existed, and to future-proof against service changes. We don't necessarily have to use the bullets, but I would like to keep from having to manually update so many places when service changes happen. Acps110 (talk • contribs) 23:04, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The reason the bullets aren't accessible is because they're images. That's why we use the box everywhere. It would be nice if we could implement the box option into NYCS time 2, I will try it now. &mdash; Train2104 (talk • contribs • count) 00:53, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅. Just use the option time=box in the line-base template (ex. produces .) You'll have to update the bus pages again, though. While you do that, can you please switch to using cite NYC bus? See that template's documentation (writing right now) for details. &mdash; Train2104 (talk • contribs • count) 01:36, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I attempted to change one section on List of bus routes in Queens to the boxes, but it's not showing the diamond 7. So I didn't save my changes. Can you implement the diamond using &lt;7&gt;? Acps110 (talk • contribs) 05:26, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't implement diamonds, only squares. The original bus route pages (before either of us edited them) didn't even mention the diamond. Just use NYCS Flushing local, I guess. Or, we can designate the express in a different way. Which do you want to use? &mdash; Train2104 (talk • contribs • count) 12:46, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Using local is not acceptable, because that doesn't show all the available services. The same problem is going to appear in the Bronx for the 6 diamond. However, a square purple box would work, with the linked text being &amp;lt;7&amp;gt; – &lt;7&gt;. Acps110 (talk • contribs) 14:56, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Looks like this: . OK? &mdash; Train2104 (talk • contribs • count) 17:17, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Very nice! Can you link the &lt;7&gt; to 7d (New York City Subway service)? Acps110 (talk • contribs) 18:18, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Why? 7d (New York City Subway service) redirects to 7 (New York City Subway service), anyway. &mdash; Train2104 (talk • contribs • count) 18:21, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If the diamond service is separated into its own section, the redirect can be changed to link to that specific section. Acps110 (talk • contribs) 18:25, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Changed for boxes and everywhere else, too. &mdash; Train2104 (talk • contribs • count) 18:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks GREAT! Acps110 (talk • contribs) 19:02, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Unused service labels
The reason I wouldn't say the R replaced the W is that there were no changes to the R at all; it already stopped at the stations below Canal before the changes. This contrasts with the N, which became a local in Manhattan, and the Q, which was extended to Astoria, thereby picking up the stops from the W. From the standpoint of the passengers at those stations, Astoria line passengers now take the Q instead of the W, and local stations in Manhattan get the N instead of the W. That's not true for the stations below Canal; they didn't get anything instead of the W, they just got the R that they already had. There was no replacement. In fact, it is exactly the cut in service that the changes were meant to cover. In short, those stations gained no other service in place of the W, they just lost the W. oknazevad (talk) 17:59, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You are using a different definition of replace. You're thinking of adding service, but that's not what that sentence says. The press release that I linked to specifically says to use the N, Q and R trains as a replacement. That's what I'm trying to convey. Yes the R didn't change, but it still replaces the W on a portion of the W's former route. When looking for a replacement train instead of the W, depending on where you are (and where you're going) dictates what train you take in its place; Astoria - N or Q; Broadway - N or R; Bway south of Canal - R. Don't forget that for people riding short distances, it often doesn't matter which service they take. Also, some Astoria line riders moved from the W to the N, because they need a local stop in Manhattan. Acps110 (talk • contribs) 18:16, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

&larr; November 2010 | December 2010 | January 2011 &rarr;