User talk:Adam Carr/Saddam Hussein

Adam, I think this is excellent, clear, well written and as balanced as possible. But will it last 10 minutes once it goes live? I smell the smell of Mother Teresa all over, I fear. Bmills 15:50, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

One must persist :) Adam 16:12, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

In reply to Jerzy, I wrote this as a Word file and some of the italics marks have become "italics" instead. The whole thing doubtless still contains many small errors like that. Adam 16:15, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * Tnx, Adam; that was my guess, didn't mean to seem sarcastic, but figured it was worth the smaller possible change in case, to give you the chance to explicitly clarify. --Jerzy 18:04, 2003 Dec 16 (UTC)

In sec'n Rise to Power:
 * ... involved in the attempted assassination of Prime Minister Qassim. Saddam was shot in the leg, but managed to flee to Syria, from where he later moved to Egypt. He was sentenced to death, in absentia.

Do we know when he was sentenced? --Jerzy 18:04, 2003 Dec 16 (UTC) In sec'n Saddam in power:
 * If while in Egypt, add "While there, ".
 * If not, move it: "assassination of Prime Minister Qassim (for which he was eventually sentenced ...


 * These members were labelled "disloyal"

and
 * After the list was read

Sounds like "read without interruption". Is it know whether he made a speech labelling them disloyal, or the group took their cue to do so (either tacitly or bcz some had been given in advance roles to play)? Were individuals simply listed, and described as a group having disloyalty as their common failing, or individually accused of specific disloyalties, or described as a conspiracy, with or without individual roles in the conspiracy being attributed?

At the risk of being ghoulish (Arabic ghul, also the source of the star "al Gol" or Algol), did some on the list denounce those who came earlier on it? (Great TV-movie-of-the-week fare, if so, which IMO goes with the Stalinesque sense of drama. IIRC, Beria was shot in the first Central Committee meeting following Stalin's death, a choice i assume was not entirely based on considerations of physical tactics.) --Jerzy 18:04, 2003 Dec 16 (UTC)


 * called the &#8220;Tikrit mafia.&#8221;

Do Iraqis use a transliteration of "Mafia"? An Arabic term that originated to describe a Mafia-like Arab organization, that is best rendered in English as "mafia"? IMO, keep "Tikrit mafia", but make clear which of these is the case, e.g. "called even in Arabic ..." or "called by a term that amounts to ...".

Re
 * Until the collapse of the Soviet Union

and
 * In the later years of his rule

This stops just short of suggesting (or denying) that his change of ideological direction followed Soviet collapse. IMO we need more research if we don't know, and once clear should chronologize the acct where feasible and where not, make that clear (e.g., "these two sets of changes overlapped, and their causal relationship is a matter of disputed opinion"). --Jerzy 18:04, 2003 Dec 16 (UTC) (In new sec'n, but formerly in sec'n Saddam in Power)
 * brandishing a rifle over his head

Were his rifles identifiable as AK-47s, i.e., suggesting the Soviet-propaganda model of USSR as inherantly the best friend of Third-World "revolutionary" movements like Saddam's, and justifying his alliance with them? If so, was this in both periods? --Jerzy 18:04, 2003 Dec 16 (UTC)

Jerzy, I can't answer most of those questions, because I did this version of the article as an editor, not as a researcher in primary sources. I kept those parts of the old article which seemed to me to be relevant to a biographical article, but I cannot vouch for the accuracy of every point. On the point relating to the Soviet Union, I do think that Iraq changed its political colour following the fall of the SU, as did many others. This was both for ideological reasons (Stalinism had failed as a role model) and practical ones (there was no more Soviet aid). Saddam then began to turn towards Islamism as the only other possible ideological cover for his authoritarian rule, and also so that he could suck up to the Saudis and other fundies in the hope they would protect him against the Americans. Adam 23:52, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * Tnx, Adam; in light of that, i certainly don't think my questions should hold up yr project; perhaps someone will enhance the article with that info in the longer run. --Jerzy 02:40, 2003 Dec 17 (UTC)

I propose that this page be moved to Saddam Hussein/temp. I believe that to be the usual procedure for projects such as this. -Smack 23:32, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The present situation seems to be suiting everyone at the moment. Note that most of the debate on this draft is actually taking place at Talk:Saddam Hussein. Adam 03:20, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)