User talk:Admiral Norton/Archive 2

Re:Zagreb task force
My support is there - in fact, I'd like to try my hand at writing more Zagreb-related articles; some of them are already on my to-do list.

Speaking of Zagreb-related stuff, congratulations on Svetozar Delić, I've read it this afternoon. Interesting and well written. GregorB (talk) 21:35, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey
I have a question, Norton. Why did you remove the box style on the Zagreb article under the section sister cities I've added few hours ago? Doesn't it look prettier that way? 78.1.57.238 (talk) 19:02, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes it does, but Wikipedia has a rule about the list of sister cities. See WikiProject Cities/Guideline for more information. Admiral Norton (talk) 20:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Email
I've replied to yours. Please give it a good look over, and reply to me about your thoughts.  bibliomaniac 1  5  23:20, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Highways
I totally admire your many valuable contributions. I have read many of them and have learned from them, including the current 'semi-highway' article. Your translation work and skills are impressive, to say the least. Anyone can edit Wikipedia regardless of their native language, right? even me :) Your contributions are prolific, and their prose is often far better than most native English speakers.

That said, there is a hierarchy of terms in English relating to public roads (no race tracks, privately owned driveways, roads on ranches, ad nauseum) that is as universal as are roads, and English speakers who use them. Thus these tiered distinctions are cultivated but seem natural to native English speakers. It is already well documented in Wikipedia and everywhere else. But here it is:

Somehighways are expressways, but not all highways are expressways. Some expressways are freeways, but not all expressways are freeways.

These are types of roads and not types of routes. Motorway is both, Autobahn is both, Autocesta is both. As road types they are the full equivalent of freeways. Interstate is a type of route that happens to be almost entirely composed of freeway. All these articles, despite their overlap, certainly have a place on Wikipedia.

Authorities often formalize these distinctions in a manner befitting their needs. And because most people who use roads generally do so in a specific range, there is little shared communion and great variation of terms, a very interesting linguistics topic. Europe is the only area with a strong and established preference for 'Motorway' in place of freeway, in English. Some areas don't distinguish expressways because they don't have very many or any of the intermediate road type. Some jurisdictions don't have higher classes of road types at all, making 'highway' the only usefel term.

All roads open to travel by the public are highways, some highways are built to higher standards than others. They are so obviously different from other roads that the term highway is not specific enough when talking about roads. When the context of use is not 'roads', the term highway is much more likely to be acceptably used than a specific term.Synchronism (talk) 21:02, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the heads up, but I have found more than enough time over the recent years to familiarize myself with the terms. I know very well what is the distinction between a California expressway and an European expressway (the latter is grade-separated) and what is the difference between the meaning of "highway" used in English-speaking countries and "highway" used by governments of some other countries (Europe doesn't exclusively use "motorway"). I'm sure you'll agree that only terms specific to a country or a region, like autobahn or autocesta have well-understood definitions that don't change between countries. Admiral Norton (talk) 21:49, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * No, I disagree. In English the geographic variation of lexical items is dynamic and evolving. It is a separate topic as it is not limited to road terminology.  If one writes about roads in an encyclopedia, terms that don't apply to any specific region (highway,expressway,freeway) are quite handy because they offer the best chance for a macroscopic/global view of a subject.  At a more microscopic/local view the reader should encounter more geographically specific information.  All freeways and motorways are highways, the reverse is not true.  In a reference work there is too much lost when a word like autobahn is translated as highway.Synchronism (talk) 03:59, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * ps: East coast(US) expressways are grade separated as are some in California. An expressway does not have to have at-grade intersections, like most European expressways.  Grade seperation is only one aspect of an expressway. Perhaps the most important aspect of all expressways is that they are not intended for pedestrians.((expressway(freeway))highway).Synchronism (talk) 05:11, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Sveta Gera
Sveta Gera/Trdinov vrh is new name of that article according to the international court consisting of the judges: User:Eleassar, User:Prevalis and User:Yerpo. Zenanarh (talk) 09:56, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

See "False renaming" section. Zenanarh (talk) 12:44, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

ZTF
Cool. Samo bi bilo dobro da staviš plavu boju, umjesto zelene :) Stavio sam se na listu sudionika. --Suradnik13 (talk) 11:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Account creator permission
I've cancelled your accountcreator flag as you don't seem to be using it. (See WP:RPE for details of when this flag may be withdrawn.) If you need it again and are going to use it, let me know. Stifle (talk) 15:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Informal mediation
I have adopted Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-10-01 Sveta Gera. There are some questions to help get things underway. If you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact me. Vassyana (talk) 15:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll join that discussion in a few days, now I'm in conflict with my free time. It would be nice if you can wait that long with further comments, except maybe 3rd question where you already have a little chat with Yerpo. Zenanarh (talk) 10:47, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikisquad
I understand your queries but the reason we have set this up is for persistant vandals who need o be talked to, not just left messages on their talk pages. Also, if the vandal is an IP then surely they cannot recieve the warnings? Wikisaver62 (talk) 16:02, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Rons1~1.jpg
Good catch on the picture; when I first put the FUR on there, I was basing that guess on the fact that it's the same size, and KPFW has so damn many screengrabs from each episode. Looks like I was wrong. Thanks! Rdfox 76 (talk) 00:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Boy racer article
While I appreciate your concern regarding the article in question, I do not however agree with your wish to use American English. The article refers to a term used in British English speaking nations - it is not an American term, neither is it used in US (they prefer the term ricer)

While your revert removed some of my edits, you failed to notice that the article is full of British English, and you left it in a state of limbo, having an undesired mix of British and American English.

I don't mean to be rude, but instead of just making instant reverts, sometimes it is much better to take a longer look at the article, and try to understand the reason behind the initial edit.

thanks

Sennen goroshi (talk) 04:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

thanks for the reply. I replied on my talk page. Sennen goroshi (talk) 15:42, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Martin Taylor edit summary
Hi, regarding this edit to Martin Taylor (footballer born 1979), I was wondering why you added an edit summary saying "Croatian journalists didn't try to beat up Taylor" – as if your edit were removing an incorrect allegation – when there was no such statement in the article and your edit merely shuffled the words of one sentence and added a date? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:10, 23 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You're right that the cited source makes no mention of "believed to be"; if that wording gave you a misleading impression, then I apologise. Oddly, it doesn't mention "death" threats either; I'll add one of the many sources that do. Though it does appear from all sources, including that cited, that the journalists were trying to get into, rather than just to, Taylor's car, so I'll restore "into". See e.g. The Times Online "tried to get to the player in his car", CNN "attempted to force their way into Taylor's car", Daily Telegraph "tried to get into Taylor's car". cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:17, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Great job!
Good job on October 2008 Zagreb bombing! Impressive expansion and contributions. Keep it up! Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :)  22:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Bistro Naci
Thanks for looking at this article, and tagging it. Jll (talk) 14:14, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

talk please
Hello Admiral Norton,

I saw you added to the Double Bind entry the box saying "the tone or style of this article or section may not be appropriate for Wikipedia", but you didn't explain why. I've been familiar with Bateson's concept of double bind since the 1970's and had experience with the problem long before then. Started editing the article in June 2008. With very little input from other editors I've continued writing the first paragraphs based on rereading the relevant sections in Steps to an Ecology of Mind (see the discussion page). No one has done anything about deleting or altering the first paragraphs of the original article and I have not yet done so (re the article contradicts itself). Your specific comments please. (see you on the discussion page of DB or User talk Margaret9mary.--Margaret9mary (talk) 23:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

double bind response
See Margaret9mary talk for beginning of a response to your concerns. --Margaret9mary (talk) 00:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Re:Diacritics
Diacritics is indeed a complicated matter on wikipedia, and perhaps especially at the Tennis Project, where there have been endless discussions about whether or not we should use diacritics. The problem comes from a WP rule that says we should use the names under which persons are most well known in the english world. Many users claim that tennis players are most well known under no-diacritics versions of their names (english language articles will use Djokovic and not Đoković), others claim the opposite. That discussion has never really been solved on the Tennis Project, which accounts for the discrepancy you pointed to, between, for example, Djokovic's article, and Ivanišević's.

But the fact and the matter is all tennis editors have adopted the practice of avoiding diacritic versions of players names in tennis events articles, for a few months already. You say no pattern corroborates this, but you just have to look at any of dozens of 2008 ATP Tour articles to see no diacritics are used. Some tennis events articles are created now and then by users who don't edit regularly in current tennis events, and I believe this is the case with pre-2007 Zagreb articles, which explains why diacritics can be found in those articles, and not in the most recent one, on which there has been more traffic.

The issue is large and complex, and I won't engage into a lenghty discussion about that, but I just wanted to point out (and that's the reason why I reverted your edit in the first place) that there is an accepted pratice in tennis events articles (and a widely accepted pratice makes consensus), which is to avoid diacritics, and follow the spellings given by the english language source. I hope that helped. Cheers, --Oxford St. (talk) 20:54, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't deny that different widely accepted and conlicting practices exist, and I'm well aware that diacrtics are used in many tennis articles other than the ones about the tournaments. But since it's a unsolved problem (and given the heat generated by the last lenghty discussion about that at the Tennis Project, it's not going to be settled soon), I can only refer to the current practice of WP:TENNIS for these articles. Cheers, --Oxford St. (talk) 21:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Double Bind again
Please check the entry; I have done further editing. And The discussion page and let me know what you think. What needs to be done to get the 3 boxes at the beginning removed and get other DB editors involved again?--Margaret9mary (talk) 23:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

The Sega Task Force Newsletter (Issue 5)

 * Newsletter delivery by xenobot  16:01, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Zagreb - transportation
Hi, it seems that now as we have "Transportation in Zagreb" article, it would be convenient to move huge "Transportation" section there. Separate Museums or Culture in Zagreb article would also be appropriate. What do you think? Also, nice sourcing for newer (2004) economy data. Don't waste time with that anon guy, he's just annoying and frustrated. Sorry for not having time to contribute by myself at this moment, I'll catch some time during holidays. BR, Plantago (talk) 13:38, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Municipalities of Croatia
Adressed for wider audience at Talk:Municipalities of Croatia LocodeMaster (talk) 21:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * replied. LocodeMaster (talk) 22:24, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't want to write at Editor review/Admiral Norton, but I would say to simply revert my moves Orle, Bistra, Gradec is, mmmh, not sooo good. Also to ask me, to revert all the stuff while you did not yet analyze the facts in the sub categories of Category:Municipalities of Croatia I posted is not so good. Anyway, I wish you good luck in your way to become an admin! Please see my words about the editing only as an idea. You probably were not soooo happy that I reverted you. Lets look forward how to best deal with the articles. Best regards. LocodeMaster (talk) 22:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I had no good move summaries. Now I have more summary (not allways - sorry) directing to Talk:Municipalities of Croatia. I will look to improve this on my side. Hvala for pointing me to this. LocodeMaster (talk) 23:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I prefer we reach consensus. Don't know when I have time, maybe I am off for the next days. LocodeMaster (talk) 23:32, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Kuloy
Hi from WP:PNT! Is there any possible you could continue working on this article's translation so that we can delete it from the translation section? Thanks! -Yupik (talk) 23:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Mass deletion
Done, sir. --Efe (talk) 10:47, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Again, thanks. Admiral Norton (talk) 10:53, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

DYK hooks
I altered the first of your DYK hooks. dense also means stupid or unintelligent. So the densest town might be offensive. I've changed it to most densely populated town, which is the meaning I assume you wanted to convey. - Mgm|(talk) 12:14, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Zaprešić
--Dravecky (talk) 11:25, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Naselja
Mjesni odbori, gradske četvrti, gradski kotari i slično su oblici mjesne samouprave koje jedinica lokalne samouprave (općina ili grad) može osnovati.

Općina i grad se sastoji od više naselja. Tako se nekoliko naselja može odvojiti, nakon što prijedlog prođe i Zakon bude donesen mogu formirati novu jedinicu lokalne samouprave (primjer je recimo općina Lopar koja se odvojila iz Grada Raba).

Naselje je osnovna teritorijalna jedinica koja gradi općinu ili grad. Naselje nije administrativna jedinica, ali na području jednog naselja može se osnovati oblik mjesne samouprave - mjesni odbor.

Osnovni propisi koji uređuju ovo područje je Zakon o područjima županija, gradova i oopćina u Republici Hrvatskoj te Zakon o lokalnoj i područnoj (re­gionalnoj) samoupravi (članak 4. i 5.).

A inače točnu definiciju naselja možeš pronaći ovdje: "Naselje je prostorna antropogeografska jedinica koja se sastoji od građevinskog područja i područja za druge namjene, a ima ime i vlastiti sustav obilježavanja zgrada unutar naselja ili unutar uličnog sustava u naselju. Naselje može pripadati samo jednoj općini odnosno gradu. Na području jedne općine odnosno grada, dva ili više naselja ne mogu imati isto ime."--Suradnik13 (talk) 18:41, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * e da ne zaboravim. 17. siječnja (drugu subotu) imat ćemo wikisusret na Jarunu u Aquariusu, pa bilo bi nam drago da dođeš (za sada računamo da će doći 20-30 ljudi). Ne grizemo, pa navrati :)--Suradnik13 (talk) 18:44, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ako nisi vidio na hr:Wikipedija:Susreti Wikipedista/Potvrda3 :)--Suradnik13 (talk) 17:27, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Flagged Revs
Hi,

I noticed you voted oppose in the flag revs straw pole and would like to ask if you would mind adding User:Promethean/No to your user or talk page to make your position clear to people who visit your page :) - Thanks to Neurolysis for the template  « l | Ψrometheăn ™ | l »   (talk) 07:08, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll be glad to. However, it seems it's at MfD. Admiral Norton (talk) 11:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Stjepan Filipović
Možeš li mi pomoći oko ovog članka. Tu je neki paranoik koji ne veruje da je ona slika sa vešanja istinita. --  Bojan  10:53, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, našao sam ja, ali ne znam šta ću da radim ako i dalje bude dosađivao. --  Bojan  17:01, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Translation
I saw you're translating the article on Croatian latinistic literature. I was wondering if you'd also be interested in translating an article I wrote a couple of months ago and got featured on did you know. Helga Vlahović. Please let me know! :) Mike H. Fierce! 01:46, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I meant to Croatian. Thank you. :) Mike H. Fierce! 21:56, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Checking back in. Did you get a chance to translate it yet? Mike H. Fierce! 09:37, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Category:Untagged WikiProject Croatia articles
"Fixing old WP Europe banners" is on the WP Croatia todo list, but it isn't exactly clear what is one supposed to do - the category description only says "Temporary category". I presume that fixing means removing the "Croatia=yes" from the WP Europe template, but it would be useful if the temp category description would spell it out. GregorB (talk) 23:27, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks! GregorB (talk) 23:35, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Eastern Europe
It's great you like it :) Sorry for any mistakes as I'm not a specialist on SEE. Hope we can reach a consensus. Regards, Montessquieu (talk) 19:34, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Ex13
Bok. Od sad ću raditi kao Ex13. Zbrljao sam password i uništio račun, a crveni sam dao sam sebi, blokao se i skinuo prava. Neda mi se više raditi na hr:wiki.

Malo sam se uhvatio dodavati predložaka na općine. Btw. kako bi ti preveo Načelnik općine. Ja sam stavio chief, iako mi to zvuči katastrofa (rukovodio sam da je načelnik glavnog stožera chief of staff)--Ex13 (talk) 20:26, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Architects
"I've been expecting you" Admiral. here, Croatian wiki. The list will probably need filtering for notability given that some similar wikis offhand I remember Slovenian wiki tends to overdo the national thing and add people who aren't rreally nationally famous only at a municipal/regional level. There are many blue links on Croatian wiki so something might come out of it. RegardsBlofeld of SPECTRE (talk) 18:09, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

If you speak Croatian if you like I can help stub some of the ones that have articles on Croatian wikipedia for you to expand if you are interested. That goes for any other missing Croatian biographies or articles from Croatian wiki. Just give me a bell any time you want a bunch started. Like this for exampleBlofeld of SPECTRE (talk) 20:13, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You are from Croatia? Wow, I love that part of the world some of the towns in Croatia and Slovenia are absolutely stunning. Good looking (and tall) people too. What city are you from? I am a member of WP:Slovenia but I had intended getting around to increasing Croatian content too and even joining Wp:Croatia but I'm pretty tied. I know I created a bunch of Castles in Croatia stubs a while back which well were pretty sub stubbish. P.S. I can stub around 10 articles which are relatively short for you to expand and kind of leave a message at the top this article requires translation from Croatian wikipedia Something like that so it leaves the intention to translate it over a few days.Blofeld of SPECTRE (talk) 20:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Cool, yes I just noticed the task force, we need this sort of thing all over the world to even wikipedia up. Is 5'9 really average height in Croatia? Well thats, ..average! I must have seen somewhere about Dalmatia and average being 6 ft 1 and just assumed it was average in Croatia. Most of the sports people I come across from Croatia seem to be 6 ft 4 or 6ft 5, virtually all over 5'11 anyway. Blofeld of SPECTRE (talk) 20:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

OK heres the first batch:


 * Vladoje Aksmanović
 * Ivan Albertal
 * Alfred Albini
 * Emilio Ambrosini
 * Vicko Andrić

OK? Blofeld of SPECTRE (talk) 22:02, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Mmm I see you're too busy to expand these what with the recent bombing in Zagreb. Blofeld of SPECTRE (talk) 22:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I wasted my time starting these? Dr. Blofeld      White cat 16:47, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Lučke kapetanije & Obalna straža
Ciao! I would like to understand if Lučke kapetanije & Obalna straža in Croatia are two different things or at the present day they merged together in a single corps like the italian Corps of the Port Captaincies - Coast Guard. Hvala! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicola Romani (talk • contribs) 08:39, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Croatian architects
Hi! Oh great to hear from you, I did wonder as I know the bombing happened soon afterwards, bad timing, well just bad anyway. Glad you are safe. Great work on translating those. If you are still interested I will still create a few every now and again in manageable chunks as we all have committments don't we. Let me know if you would still like we to transwiki a few artcles from Croatian wiki. Dr. Blofeld      White cat 18:49, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Re: Headline not in ToC
I had nothing better to do, so I just went and changed it myself. Feel free to revert if that's not what you wanted! - Jarry1250 (t, c) 09:49, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

StarTrek WikiProject Image
Good job on finding a free image to use for WikiProject Star Trek talk page banner! I didn't know where to find one... — OranL (talk) 11:12, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

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Croatia Hungary
What's POV to you? That Croatia was part of Hungary for 1097-1918, and it had wide autonomy? Is this POV for you? Man, you better start getting your things right! Wikipedia is not some kind of blog or fantasy literature?! I can't understand you.--Bizso (talk) 18:09, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * During Hapsburg rule, Croatia-Slavonia was part of Royal Hungary, which was part of the Habsburg Monarchy. The Hungarian kings were kings of Crotia until 1918. And where do you get the fact that after 1526 the personal union which was more than personal union btw, ended? Where are your references??--Bizso (talk) 18:39, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Bizso (talk • contribs) 18:46, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * What I'm referring to is that Croatia was in real union with Hungary. The map uses different color code for dominion acquired at different times, BUT you can clearly see the borders of each dominion which is denoted by a red line. According to this, Royal Hungary was one dominion and not two different Hungary and Croatia. Higher resolution map--Bizso (talk) 19:27, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you maybe interested to write article about constitution of Kingdom of Croatia and Kingdom of Hungary personal union ? We are having full text of constitution--Rjecina (talk) 21:12, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for help about that user, but it has not been needed. Last 3 months I am under attack of harass accounts and this night I will ask for checkuser. Maybe you have not noticed that text is not writen by User:Indexheavy000, but by 72.75.14.202 (if you look history of Jasenovac talk page)?
 * This is constitution .--Rjecina (talk) 22:15, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Edge city
Thank you again for contacting me. Bankbryan (talk) 00:41, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Alternative counter
I noticed on User talk:Interiot that you were experiencing the same problems with the edit counter as I was. I've located another edit counter that you may want to try. Best regards --Eustress (talk) 03:47, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Pukanić-Đinđić
Hi. I can see your reasoning behind the Đinđić addition to the "see also", but I really believe the two events are more different than similar. About the only thing they share in common is the Balkan connection. Zoran Đinđić was a politician, and Pukanić was a journalist. Đinđić was assassinated during a very politically turbulent time in Serbia, while Pukanić was killed in a rather calm time (for a post-Yugo country). If you find it so important to keep on, I won't argue about it. I just thought it wasn't close enough to be relevant, and still don't.--Jesuislafete (talk) 07:39, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Antônio Carlos Jobim
Hi, just so you know I've added a comment for you over at Talk:Antônio Carlos Jobim. Thanks! Jafeluv (talk) 14:43, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

RFA
I've created it at Requests for adminship/Admiral Norton. Please answer the questions and transclude it when you feel you're ready. Also, tell me if you'd like me to fix anything on my nominating statement.  bibliomaniac 1  5  03:20, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Just saw the question answers. Haven't made a decision yet, but good luck in any case! Spinach Monster (talk) 17:02, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. When I come to a decision, i'll be sure to put in my two cents. Spinach Monster (talk) 17:22, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you provide diffs? Spinach Monster (talk) 18:01, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You just kind of stopped there rather than reach consensus. Ok, but not great. I was worried about this edit summary too, but this incident happened months ago, so none of it is too concerning. I'm leaning towards support. Not quite there yet. I'll let you know any more questions if I think of them. Spinach Monster (talk) 18:19, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I said it wasn't a big deal above due to the time elapsed. Your response to me on my talk page is making me wonder if maybe it was. You're a good editor to be sure, but I am growing worried towards your defensiveness on this issue.
 * Not your first voter anymore, take a look -- it seems like you're doing good! Relax, if you can relax now, then won't be worried that you can be relaxed in tough situations where you have the tools. Excuse my reticence, I want to say something, but i'm not quite there yet and I can't get a bead on it just yet. Spinach Monster (talk) 18:40, 28 February 2009 (UTC)