User talk:AeronM/Archive 1

....not sure how to do all that.... I'll try.... new to this... have read the tutorial and understand some of it... how is my 'article dsputed? How do we get it 'neutralized' so it can be un-disputed? PS I keep trying to clean up the "natural horsemanship" article so it can be undisputed... but people keep putting their own stuff or negative stuff in the article.... does it just keep going round and round till someone gives up? Just wondering. thanks! AeronM (talk) 15:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC) <- did that work?


 * Hey there! Please see WP:NPOV for our rules on point of view; generally, try to have the article as fair and unbiased as possible. If you have any more questions, feel free to reach me at my talk page. Cheers, Master of Puppets   Call me MoP! ☺  02:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks. AeronM (talk) 01:00, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Bitless bridle article
I would kindly ask you to return the cited and sourced information you removed to the article. I note that you are a new user, so I'm trying to work WITH you, but you can't just remove sourced information. Ealdgyth | Talk 00:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

While I am thrilled you are "trying" to work WITH me, I have removed some material that was incorrect in factual basis.
 * Ah, but it wasn't added by me. I haven't touched the article since you removed my edits. Ealdgyth | Talk 04:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't say that you had.AeronM (talk) 04:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Meanwhile would like to know if there is a way to eliminate all the white space in the article... I understand the photos are causing it, but is there a way to fix? Also, my photo looks like it is next to "War Bridle" and not where it should be, next to "Riding Halter". Thanks for any advice.AeronM (talk) 04:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I can format the article for you which will remove excess white space. Also I see you are trying to link to a picture on German Wikipedia. Unfortunately that doesn't work. I tried that once myself with a picture also from German Wikipedia. My solution was to save the picture to my hard drive (right click and save pic as) then upload it to Wikipedia but specify a license (check original) and state where you got it from. That way it will pass when the image checks are done. That worked for me anyhow. I'm removing the helpme tag. If still need more answers feel free to use it again or just message me on my talk page. Sting au  Buzz Me...   05:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your help, it is appreciated. I did not put up the picture from german wiki. I only put up one pic, which has been removed by someone else.

Possibly unfree Image:Dr Cook BB Western.JPG
An image that you uploaded or altered, Image:Dr Cook BB Western.JPG, has been listed at Possibly unfree images because its copyright status is disputed. If the image's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the image description page. You are welcome to add comments to its entry at if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Una Smith (talk) 07:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

AeronM, the above from me is boilerplate added by a bot. Anyway, please respond on Possibly unfree images. If Dr. Cook has placed the photo in the public domain or under a Wikipedia-compatible license, that needs to be spelled out. If the photo really is in the public domain, then it needs to be moved to Commons, where other people can find it and use it. Look at some of the photos on Halter to see how that is done; most of them aren't really on Wikipedia, they are on Commons. --Una Smith (talk) 08:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Issue was addressed and fixed. See Copyright tag below. AeronM (talk) 00:32, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Re:
If I am right use this {PD-author|name} (add a {} at the beginning and the end) and place the authors name at the beginning. Hope I helped. If you need anything else let me know. Thanks and Happy Editing, [[User:Dustihowe| D u s t i talk to me 20:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Copyright tag
Can you check to see if I did it correctly? AeronM (talk) 01:02, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you did do it correctly. Happy Editing,  D u s t i talk to me 22:47, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

NPA
Hi AeronM. I notice there is a ongoing dispute on halters and bridles. Please accept this advice in good faith: even if you feel that the issue has become personal, do not make comments on other editors - only their edits. Some of your comments could be interpreted as uncivil, especially speculation on motives. This is considered to be disruptive to the process of improving articles, and to other editors beyond the dispute. Civility is therefore taken very seriously, it is one of the pillars of our community. Thanks, cygnis insignis 22:10, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I believe that it works. Regards, cygnis insignis 23:14, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. I missed your pun on the first reading, very witty :-) cygnis insignis 23:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

A synopsis of WP:NPA
When you make negative characterizations about people you don't know, without any factual evidence to back them up, you have almost always violated WP:NPA.--Curtis Clark (talk) 23:59, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I apologize if I have done so... it's hard not to when you're at the receiving end of comments like: "I'm still not an opponent of bitless bridles, but I'll wrap a rawhide rope around my horse's lower jaw Native American style before I ever buy one of yours."--Curtis Clark (talk) 05:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * And what was the purpose of this statement?: "AeronM, there are no special points for creating a page. Sorry." --Una Smith (talk) 22:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC) Was that constructive? Or sarcastic?


 * or how about: "...people who are zealous advocates of anything are so sadly similar..." (montanabw)


 * and my favorite!: "And dear, no personal vendetta is involved. You are simply not that important." Montanabw

This was also posted on my talk page, and I have answered it there.--Curtis Clark (talk) 15:20, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Riding Halter
An editor has nominated Riding Halter, an article on which you have worked or that you created, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "What Wikipedia is not").

Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes ( ~ ).

You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate. Thank you. BJBot (talk) 00:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Again, what about: Bates, Devoucoux, McClellan, Neatsfoot, Wintec (just to name a few??? All manufacturers of products. How is this different? I don't even mention the name of my product on this page. How is this COI if the others aren't? AeronM (talk) 01:20, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Did the manufacturers write the articles? If so, it is COI. If not, it isn't. That's what COI is about. It is not uncommon to see articles about products or companies gutted or deleted when they are written by representatives of the company. Sometimes a representative of the company will not disclose that fact, and when it is discovered, it casts a pall of suspicion over the entire article.--Curtis Clark (talk) 14:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * So, if someone else writes the page on, say, Riding Halters, you won't have a problem with that? AeronM (talk) 16:17, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

If it is not a commercial product then the article title should be not Riding Halter but Riding halter. Either way, any article on this subject arguably would be a POV fork of Bitless bridle and merits PROD on that basis. --Una Smith (talk) 18:39, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * To use montanabw's argument, the riding halter should not be a POV fork as it pre-dates the Bitless bridle by hundreds of years. See talk page of Riding halter. AeronM (talk) 00:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

For The Record
I am concerned about the negative slant the article seems to be taking. I think it is due to the fact that the majority of the editors working on this article have expressed a strong anti-bitless bridle/natural horsemanship bias. Here are some refences (!) to support what I am saying:

"but many of the new ones (Natural horsemanship trainers) claim it's their new thing and really have quite a scam going..." (from montanabw)

"You assume everyone else is stupid and that you and your cult alone has seen the light and if we just check out your book/magazine/DVD/website we too will eagerly join the cult." (montana)

""Bitless bridles" are a new fad." (montanbw)

"Do not get me started on the NH thing.... If you mix the NH movement with the barefoot movement (Have you seen the "horseshoe nails are poison" argument? =:-O ) and add in the bitless folks, oh lordy. They never actually wind up RIDING! And I thought I was done with twitches and spasms (ala Inspector Clouseau's boss) back in the 80's when some idiot started calling Arabians "living art." Silly me, I thought it couldn't get any worse..." Montanabw

"Do natural horsemanship people multiply like weeds? They keep springing up everywhere...." (Ealdgyth)

"Obviously you are using WP:NPA to hide behind, because you are such an un-American horse-hating piece of bootsole-dreck that you can't understand how hopelessly ignorant you are in comparison to God's selected horsemen. (Conquest, war, pestilence, and death, in case you were wondering.")--Curtis Clark "Just went and threw fat on the fire of the bitless bridle article. (Don't thank me! LOL!)" (montanabw)

"Can you find a source for the proposition that riding in a halter is just a wee bit risky? Seems the bitless crowd disagrees and now the main pusher is vandalizing the hackamore article. " (monatanbw)

"I'm not touching this one with a 10 foot pole..., but heads up that it's your turn to work on this little POV-laden unit: Bitless bridle. (grinning evilly) I got in enough of a fight when I threw the bitless and bridleless stuff out of the dressage articles, not in the mood to take on fanatics (emphasis added) again." ~ Montanabw

So, I will let you folks decide for yourselves..... AeronM (talk) 00:47, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, now I understand. Having a sense of humor is a sign of being anti-bitless. I was never clear on that before. I'd be interested to know whether God's horsemen will ride bitless, or will they have bits? Oh, and did you ever bother to notice that this was directed at Montanabw and not at you? I'm trying not to be insulting when I tell you that it's not all about you.--Curtis Clark (talk) 22:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Once again, you have missed the point. But I appreciate the attempt at sarcasm! AeronM (talk) 23:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, a point is being missed, but not by me. You state, just above, "In addition to attacking me personally, some of the editors have expressed a strong anti-bitless sentiments in their public writings. Here are some refences (!) to support what I am saying:" You included my post. My post wasn't about you; it was a humorous jab at Montanabw. Thus it was not a personal attack on you (whether you want it to be or not). I have never expressed any ant-bitless sentiment, because I have none. I am strongly disinclined toward your product, but, as I've explained, that's because of my opinion of you, not of the product, about which I know nothing. I take your inclusion of the quote from me as a personal attack--it doesn't support your thesis, and its use here is gratuitous. Please do not quote me out of context again.--Curtis Clark (talk) 23:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * or, what? You're going to take my lunch money??!!    It's over. Let it go already!!  AeronM (talk) 00:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You had better supply some diffs for these, use the link to find out how. If you cannot do this, the alleged quotes should be removed. cygnis insignis 01:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, clicked the link but not sure what you mean. Please clarify? AeronM (talk) 01:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Please take the time to read the link. As an example, this is a diff to your last edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:AeronM&curid=15764501&diff=193169124&oldid=193167338. These are available from the history tab at the top of every page. Read the link again and go to the page where you copied these quotes. Or point out the page where you got this example: Obviously you are using WP:NPA to hide behind, ... When you do we can restore your post. cygnis insignis 01:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

SO typical to have my own post hijacked form my own talk page! If you were embarrassed enough by what you said to delete it from my page, maybe you shouldn't have said it in the first place. AeronM (talk) 03:22, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

All quotes were taken from the talk pages of the person quoted. Now will you restore my post, as promised? . AeronM (talk) 02:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, clicked the link but not sure what you mean. Please clarify? AeronM (talk) 01:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC) PS Wiki rules say I should ask for clarification before I take offense... so, when you said "you had better..." that sounded like a threat to me. Hoping I'm wrong. AeronM (talk) 01:22, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry you interpreted it as a threat, not my intention. It is a serious matter, and the community takes a dim view of potentially disruptive comments. More reading and less typing is my suggestion. cygnis insignis 01:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Ha ha! I love apologies like that!  "Sorry YOU misunderstood me..."    Ahh, classic!    Maybe next time, instead of "You had better..." you could try  "You need to" or even (God forbid) "please do this...."...??  Small wonder things get heated so quickly on this site!!  : )  AeronM (talk) 02:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And it is unfortunate that you have adopted this stance. My intent is to reduce disruption in the community, this requires some assistance from yourself. I am incapable of threatening you, I hope you elect to show a willingness to collaborate.  Contributors do not (generally) gain direct advantage from wikipedia, they tend to be resentful of those who might try to do just that.  The next editor may just block you, saving everyone a lot of trouble. I hope another solution can be found. cygnis insignis 04:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * PSS "The spat at bitless bridle is still ongoing, you, me and Ealdgyth versus the creator. I've been taking the heat for 2-3 days and trying to edit the article in an NPOV fashion. Need you back over to help if you can? Am thinking if you know a sympathetic admin, watchlisting may be in order. Thanks. Montanabw"  It's hard not to feel ganged-up-on when I read things like this. AeronM (talk) 01:25, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Please take a moment to try to imagine why we reacted as we did. A new editor adds material to Bridle that is POV. We know that it is POV; all of us are aware of the controversy. We have all heard some of the arguments, and some of us have heard all the arguments.


 * Now there's nothing wrong with POV as long as it is identified as opinion, and contrasted with other opinion, and referenced. It's only contra-Wikipedia when it is presented (intentionally or unintentionally) as fact. We tried to apprise you of the rules (I posted the original welcome on this page, which has links to a lot of the salient articles). We went to Bitless bridle, which you created, and found what we regarded to be "more of the same", and again we cautioned against POV. Come to find out that you are a manufacturer of bitless bridles, we also cautioned you about COI. For our efforts, we got characterized as "bitless bridle opponents", and our edits were removed when you didn't agree with them.


 * I based such characterizations on what you yourselves had written in your talk pages. Which I referenced.  AeronM (talk) 16:26, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It may be difficult to imagine, but all this didn't set well with us. In my case, I found it so unpleasant to deal with you that I took a Wikibreak of several days just to get some perspective. Montanabw asked for help, I gave it, and the admin Hesperian (whom I know from Wikiproject:Plants) did an admirable job of sorting out the options.


 * Imagine a group of people sitting at tables in a room quietly working on projects, occasionally talking with each other, and then someone storms into the room, grabs a project, and starts writing all over it. It would be unfair to characterize your actions this way, but I think it is a fully accurate characterization of our reactions. Please think about all this when you judge us.--Curtis Clark (talk) 15:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you have it backwards. I created the original page.... so it was I who was sitting quietly working on a project when you burst in and started writing all over it.  Which I didn't have a problem with until you started 'biting the newcomer.'  How many times should I aplologize for being new to wikipedia?  I have read all the pillars several times, NPOV about 15 times, as well as all the tutorials, NPA articles, disruptive editing, COI, etc. If you have a point to make on one of the policies, you can just cite the policy, you don't have to insult me and accuse me of being stupid or not having read them/understood them.  And I have not judged you Curtis, all I did was quote you from your own postings.  I let the words speak for themselves.  AeronM (talk) 16:26, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

How to enjoy wikipedia
Howdy, I noticed on the held desk that you had some trouble with editors ganging up on you. It can be difficult to find the right topic to contribute to wikipedia, and I think the choice of topic you made is probably at the root of the negative feelings you are getting. I also think a slight change in topic can fix it all. The negative feelings and discussions are absolutely not your fault, but I think you can leave them behind while still contributing on topics that interest you.

The idea is you want to find something you care about, but not something you feel extremely strongly about. For instance, you may be too invested in natural horse riding to contribute immediately to that topic, but there is an enormous amount of material on horses on wikipedia, and really quite a lot of it needs quite a lot of work! You can learn how wikipedia works (technically, socially, etc.) on articles where you don't have strong personal opinions, but where you do have strong interest and subject knowledge.

You might be interested in WP:WikiProject Equine, or just browsing Category:Horses and its subcategories. You might also be interested in WP:WikiProject Visual arts or WP:WikiProject Virginia. Projects help people with like interests get together and figure out how to make a better encyclopedia. JackSchmidt (talk) 05:05, 22 February 2008 (UTC)