User talk:Afghan Historian/Archive 3

Re Pakistan picture
I hadn't really read the history when I replaced the picture. I just thought something relevant was in order and controversy is often anti-productive anyway unless absolutely necessary on wikipedia since anyone can edit whatever they want. Always glad to help when I can. Cheers. Tombseye 06:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Wali Khan
Hey Afghan, there is an article on famous Pakistani politician Wali Khan, will you please have a look on it, which is been there for good article on nominations page: ? Haider 22:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey friend, I had asked you to visit an article on Wali Khan but couldn't found any reply even? That article is GA now with great efforts from usrer Zak. Take care!    Haider 21:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey Afghan, Iss khabara nishta mara (No problem man). Pashtun is a featured article now, as a pushtun you should visit the page properly and it's contents as well and Wali Khan by user zak. Thank you very much!   Haider 20:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes you are right to some extent as far as his father concern but on the other hand he was very authoritavie man amongst Pashtuns, we must discuss on both positive and negative roles, he was against the muslim league, while there were so many pashtun people were pro-pakistan stood with muslim league, you know better it usually a healthy sign for democracy. Anyway both wali khan and Ghaffar Khan were controversial but played very significant roles in the history of pakistan and neighbourig countries. We will have to focus much on some positive great role of Wali Khan as he had played a great role to unite Pashtuns. BTW I love my country Paskistan and it's province Pashtunistan(NWFP). Sorry for my english grammer/spellings etc, you can rectify it if required that way I will be able to improve it much and faster.  Thanks.     Haider 21:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * As I have already told you that no body is perfect around, but as far as their credendials for Pashtuns concerned, were glorious - I know Ghaffar Khan was a controvertial and if that then that should have also been mentioned in the article and his thoughts as well. Thanks!     Haider 20:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Irano-Afghan
That's an old archaic phenotype created by Carleton S. Coon which, in this day of genetic research, has fallen by the way side. We discussed Coon briefly in an anthro class I took years ago and his views are very controversial (although I think he did some good work in a lot of other related fields of anthro) when it comes to physical types. Genetic test are, of course, in their initial phases, but Irano-Afghan is not really valid as people vary greatly within these populations. In short, in current anthropology it's considered archaic, at least with regards to the Irano-Afghan "type". Cheers. Tombseye 23:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Article for deletion
Hi, Afghan Historian. Would you mind offering your input at Articles for deletion/Allahdad Bohyo? Thanks! -Medtopic 05:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the speedy reply. Cheers! -Medtopic 05:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The End of the Affair
What had you in mind, there is a "huge" amount of work required here, I have added the novel to our WikiProject_Novels/Worklist in the General Novels section. One problem is I don't know the novel, but I will do what I can. :: Kevinalewis  :  (Talk Page) / (Desk)  08:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Novels WikiProject Newsletter June 2006
Here is a new initiative for our project. You are recieving this as you have at some point signed up as a "member" of the project. Have a look at the newsletter via the link and see what you think. The June 2006 issue of the Novels WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. :: Kevinalewis  :  (Talk Page) / (Desk)  09:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Done
Ok, I think I fixed everything. Let me know if you like it. :) &mdash; Khoikhoi 05:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem! &mdash; Khoikhoi 03:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

SouthernComfort
Hi AH,

I saw your comment on Zereshk's talk page, SC has left Wikipedia. He was editing less anyways, as he was moving back to "real life". Anyways, you can still email him. &mdash; Khoikhoi 01:53, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it is a shame. He was banned by ArbCom from editing Iran-related articles for being an "edit warrior", although that's an extremely inaccurate description of him. :( &mdash; Khoikhoi 02:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Anti-Persianism
Well, from my understanding the Taliban were predominantly (but not entirely) Pashtun, schooled at the madrasas in western Pakistan and even had allied with Pashtuns from western Pakistan who came to Afghanistan to help them with their version of a jihad against the Northern Alliance. Since these political groups also happened to mirror largely ethnic lines, the fighting was seen by many as ethnic rivalry and so when the Taliban killed the opposition (and civilians which actually both sides did during the long course of the fighting) some people saw that as ethnic warfare. This is not necessarily the case, but that's how people saw it. The Taliban were okay with people, regardless of ethnicity as they weren't discriminatory in the ethnic sense really, as long as they agreed with how they ran things. However, there is a history there as well. For one thing, the Tajiks don't necessarily identify themselves as 'Persians' (although the Farsiwan often do) in Afghanistan itself, but rather as Afghan nationals who happen to speak Dari and are Sunni, which is important to them. A lot of this interpretation of anti-Persianism is also based upon the Shia-Sunni rivalries of the past as the Pashtuns think of Persians (as in Iran) as Shiites and thus think less of them for it (this is important when thinking of the Hazaras. The Tajiks even sometimes think this way as the religious divide is important to a lot of those people, but in modern times many Tajik intellectuals do seem to show more affinity with Iran and Tajikistan due to language. In addition, Persians in Iran haven't always been willing to even view the Tajiks as fellow Persians necessarily, although the Islamic govt. of Iran was very defensive of them and, in particular, the Hazaras and Farsiwans who happen to be Shia. Also, people here in the 'west' misinterpret the people over there. The Pashtuns are somewhat ethno-centric, but not entirely and definitely not racist. SOME of the Durrani are Persianized, but many aren't as well and the Pashtuns simply don't identify with Pan-Iranism usually. Instead they think of themselves (as do the Tajiks) as a type of 'Aryan' people as well as the sporadic beliefs in genealogy regarding Arabs, Jews, Greeks etc. The terminology is a bit misunderstood though by all concerned. Also, the welcome for Afghan refugees who were Pashtun was far different from the welcome (or the lack thereof) for non-Pashtuns from Afghanistan in Peshawar due to language differences. Thus, the Tajiks and Hazaras harbor resentment towards the Taliban and Pashtuns and by extension Pakistan (and Pashtuns from there as well) for helping them. As a result the conspiracy theories are a bit more imaginary and beyond the proven ISI links to the Taliban etc. I wouldn't necessarily break this down to an ethnic thing as the Taliban were more about ideology though. You may want to talk to Tājik about some of that stuff too. All in all the conflict in Afghanistan is not very well understood in the US and is often just conjectural and superficial. Read Graham Greene, good stuff. Cheers. Tombseye 03:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the compliments. No, I don't mind your questions or comments. I'm always glad to answer if I can any question raised. Ciao. Tombseye 05:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Perizaad Zorabian
Hi Afghan Historian, delete this once you read it. Please stop your nationalist edits on the Perizaad page with Zoroastrian and specially IRAN. She is an Indian and I simply do not understand what makes u put her in the Irani Category. You are acting like a kid who is just too stubborn to accept the fact, and probably too nationalist to realise that Perizaad is a proud Indian. She is where she is because of India, and incase she had ever been in Iran, her future wud have not been an mile close to what it is now. So please give up the unwanted edits on Parsi vs Zoroastrian and simply let the page be as it is. When she puts her religion as Parsi, thats all we understand and nothing beyond it. Just because wikipedia is free-to-edit doesn't mean you will edit everything to your nationalist/racial (whatever) ends. Just be friends with me on this :-) and please try to accept the facts. If she uses Parsi, we all use Parsi for her. And once again, SHE IS AN INDIAN, not Irani. One more thing, let's have a professional discussion on this rather than a nationalist one... Bbye and take care! Your Indian brother -User: CaptainRon

I know you are a Pakistani and thats why i signed myself as ur Indian brother. Anyway, for heaven's sake can we just drop the issue and let her be a Parsi? Be it erroneous or factual, just let it down for Perizaad's sake! When she writes herself as a Parsi, where the bloody hell is the discussion? You may be correct with all your historical stuff, but try to realise, its the online page of an "ACTRESS"! not a political or historical figure that we are debating on her religion. SHE IS VERY MUCH ALIVE AND CAN SPEAK FOR HERSELF. SHE CALLS HERSELF A PARSI, AND THATS THE END OF DISCUSSION DUDE! I seriously don't understand why is there so much debate on it as if its a conspiracy!? Hope you understand and co-operate on this...

Thanx Afghan. I guess you are pretty much into history isn't it? anyway that brews up a question in my mind, what is your stance on the Aryan theory? u believe in aryans comming down from the north or they originating in the indian subcontinent?

Indo-Aryans
Your concept and belief is pretty much influenced by the Max Muller theory. However, I would like to bring to your notice a few recent developments. Firstly, its genetically proved that Dravidians are nothing but darkenned North Indian Aryans, who in turn are darkened Caucassians. That means, genetically the above three evolve from the same source, unlike Africans, Asians and Native Americans. Secondly, the extinction of Indus Valley is heavily debated. Let us think very logically... Indus Valley cities had more advanced architecture than modern day Indian and Pakistani cities. Why on earth, would any invading tribe not instead settle in the captured cities, instead of just moving on? Another point is, recent excavations at Harappa and Mohen Jo daro indicate that the death was sudden. Like something unexpected struck all of a sudden. Skeletons have been found holding hands as if shaking them. Certain other skeletons have been found in places of day-to-day work. The findings also reveal a green glass like substance which is not found anywhere on earth except the Nuclear test sites. Somehow it appears as if Indus Valley was exterminated by a Tanguska like natural nuclear explosion. So all in all, I, firstly do not believe in the Dravidian Aryan concept. It was just a divide and rule strategy of the bloody British, like they did with the Hindus and Muslims. Having the genetic proof, the other proof of good interaction among the southern and northern rulers would be Chanakya. He being a South Indian helped Chandra Gupta Maurya to rise to power. Apart from that, look at Shankracharya, another South Indian, who brought Hinduism to what it is now. Also, the Vedas were composed by the Aryans. And, Avesta turns out to be near sister of the Vedas, with a few phonetic changes. Calling Dravidians a derivative of Indus Valley residents, is based just on script similarity. Whereas the Tamil script bears resemblance to Summerian script too. So it is quite possible that they are part of the ancient summerian civilization. Well, and then if u read David Icke, as per him, the Aryans were genetically created species by the aliens, and he does give credible proof for the ridiculous claim. So all in all, the Aryan invasion theory flaws do exist, and lead us to re-write the Aryan history. The last nail in the coffin would be the discovery of the underwater city, Dwarka. Found a little further from the shores of Bet Dwarka, the underwater city dates back to 9500 BC, not only proving the existence of the World's oldest civilization, but also making the west re-write the Indian subcontinent History. What has not triggered the rewrite is the fact that we are yet to prove it being of Vedic/aryan origin. About the religious borrowing from the Dravidians, (although i insist that there was not much of distinction, as both came from same beliefs and culture), most of the modern Hinduism is dictated by the epics. Me being a modern Hindu, hardly ever worship much or goto temples etc. But whatever is practised at home, is based on regional beliefs (e.g. Bengalis have their own traditions and Gods without any Dravidian influence) and on the epics like Geeta etc. So what I believe is that, these people did not come down from somewhere, BUT ALWAYS EXISTED HERE ONLY! Now here is my perspective to the claim. 1) Europe faced Ice Age for the past 20,000 years and the last cold snap was there in 3000 BC. So in that case, Indian subcontinent was the best place to dwell into. Also read about the greeks, they didn't settle there in greece until 3000 BC. We also date the Aryans comming down as 3000 BC. We also date Indus valley to 3000 BC. All in all, world got re-ordered around 3000 BC. But there is no proof of how it got re-arranged. 2) My belief is, it was near Indus, Chenab, Saraswati (not even Ganges) where the initial Aryans lived. The climate was the best down here, so they remained fair in color till the ice age moved out. Some went North, and settled in Greece, some in Rome (Iran, Turkey etc) and some in the city of Arkaim, Russia. 3) The archeologists of the city Arkaim give the punch to the max muller concept. They say that Arkaim city was built with Vedic influence. They go ahead to claim on the basis, that it was India from where Aryans came and settled in Arkaim, not the otherway round. 4) Now the color change was simply based on gradual heat increment as you go down south. There was nothing like that the shudras were original indian residents. People forget that it were the Shudras who were exposed to maximum heat as they were composed of farmers and labourers. For example, take my word, 200 years from now, there will be mixed color caucassians in USA. Those living near Nevada and Mexico will eventually turn dark. And even in them, those who are farmers or are exposed to heat, are deemed to change more in color.

The final conclusion as per me is, its the Indian subcontinent that triggered Indo-European settlement. Also I would say that you may research some sites on the anti-max muller concept. Anyway i just hope i could go down in time and just witness the whole process :-) Whats ur say?

Indo-Aryan views
Just wanted you guys to read this article: http://www.comparative-religion.com/hinduism/origins/ I must say the anti-AIT is gaining popular acceptance in India and mostly amongst the people I know. As for Goddess Kali, I must bring to your notice that the Bengalis are absolute devotees of Goddess Durga. She is said to be an incarnation of Ma Kali, but as I know it was a person named Krsnanda who introduced Ma Kali in Bengal as a popular Goddess. As I can say, AIT was just a way of superiorizing the British themselves... Also I would like to ask you guys one thing, that is, why do you think Aryans would destroy Indus Valley and not settle in it themselves? Also, mind not, but having studied and failed exams several times in Sanskrit, and today being a Computer Engg trying to develop a Natural Language Processor, I do realize that Sanskrit is the only existing language in world that fits sooooo properly into a syntax tree created for recognizing a spoken language. It is the only unambiguous grammar in the world. Westerners studied the language and simply discarded the language being of Indian origin and rather formulated the AIT on the basis of tit bits of facts from Vedas. Human psychology works that way (and we are no exception either). I would like to quote a para from the above link: "However, I would point out that if Arya originally meant the ruling elite alone then contrary to expectations it broadened its scope: the smrits classify the shudras (the conquered dark race in this invasion-scenario) as Aryas. Arthashastra (c 300 B.C) explains a kingdom consists of five types of men: that Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishays and Shudras are Aryas;". Why doesn't the AIT have any explanations for this? Or it seems they just picked up the facts that supported the AIT alone, and discarded rest as myth. Here is another quote: "I would also point out that Vishnu, the Preserver is dark-skinned; the very name of His Avatar Krishna means black; so too Arjuna the great hero, son of Indra is black. The Mother Goddess is pictured as both fair and black. Incidentally, in Bengal the traditional icons of Durga portray her as yellowish, with a Mongolian cast to her features. Yet, Shiva who is supposedly the god of the darker races had always been pictured from the beginning as white skinned. This makes the equation of colour with power problematic." Here is another fantastic quote in parallel to those from Arkaim archeologists, by a Kurdish Professor: "On the other hand, Kurdish professor, Mehrdad Izady at Harvard University, showing the influence of Indic/Sindhi people on Kurdistan (parts of Iraq, Turkey, Iran) states that "The Mittani aristocratic house almost certainly was from the immigrant Sindis, who survive today in the populous Kurdish clan of Sindi in the same area where the Mittani kingdom once existed. These ancient Sindi seem to have been an Indic, and not Iranic group of people, and in fact a branch of the better known Sindis of India-Pakistan, ". Hence here the opinion is that Aryan influence travelled from India to outside". CaptainRon

Well, the views vary, but realistically it's higly doubtful that the Aryans originated in India. First, there is no indication of a mass migration out of India that would explain why related languages of the Indo-European variety are found in Iran, Europe etc. Secondly, the genetic trail seems to indicate that a large-scale language replacement took place as a largely indigenous population in India was slightly modified by West Eurasian invaders (again see genetic studies such as on the Sinhalese people page). Third, the vast majority of academics don't believe that the Aryans originated in India or anywhere close. Forth, it's easy to fudge evidence as the Aryans adapted and assimilated local Indian culture and thus pre-Aryan traits can be linked to them as if they originated from them. See J.P Mallory's In Search of the Indo-Europeans for further details. What's interesting is that there are MANY new theories such as Colin Renfrew's view that they originate in Anatolia to views that they are from the Balkans, Siberia, etc. Given the data and preponderance of academic views, I personally back an area from the Ukraine to north Central Asia. Regardless, a Eurasian homeland is the most likely given the carbon dating and archaeology of finds that show a gradual outward expansion of nomads from this area. Some people may prefer to go with fringe views on the subject, but I generally back the majority views in the academic community myself since they've spent a lot more time researching the field. Hope this helps. Tombseye 21:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, current theory says that Aryan history dates back to 3000 BC. But however the City of Arkaim in Russia, which is proved to be of Aryan origin dates back to 6000BC. As I told you, world re-orders at around 3000 BC-2000BC. Now who where the local Indians??? there is no such thing as "Local Indian culture". All the North Indians are Indo-Aryans. People who say that the dark skinned North Indians are local Indians, simply don't understand the exposure to heat turned them so. Anyhow most researches on Aryans is steeply inclined towards that done by the west, and the western scholars usually bend it to their benefit. About the origination of Aryans in India, do you realise how the originating point was decided to be Russian Steppes? They say it was the mid point from where the aryans could have populated all the areas they populate now (now thats stupid kindergarten theory). Where is the proof that Aryans originated anywhere close to Steppes and Anatolia etc? The reason why people can come up with so many theories is that the whole topic is debatable. There is no convincing proof that Aryans migrated into India. There is equivalent proof that Aryans migrated out of India. Plus, the oldest record of the Aryans is the Vedas. They are the oldest literature in the world. They never speak of migration anywhere at all. They do say of fighting local dark skinned inhabitants and driving them into hiding. But there is sufficient further proof that they were some local 'tribes' not a local 'civilization'. Try to understand the diff b/w the two. Anyhow this whole discussion is debated and has a lot of flaws. There is evidence for so many other different theories that we can never say that this particular theory is correct. It is our tendency to follow the most simple and uncryptic theory. Also a theory, that supports the egoistic ambitions of the majority. Anyhow, there is one event that may change the whole history and that is proving the underwater city at Dwarka to be of Aryan origin. CaptainRon


 * I'll just respond here briefly. The theory of Proto-Indo-Europeans dates back to the 6th millenium and includes archaeological finds in the Pontic-Caspian region. The early Indo-Europeans had no cities per se, but settlements such as Akraim (which actually dates back to 2000 BCE) did constitute towns. The Andronovo and Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex indicate the earliest known Indo-Iranian split from the Indo-Europeans as evidenced by radio-carbon dating. We have a progressive movement towards the southeast with the Gandhara grave culture moving towards the indian subcontinent as the Indo-Aryans and Iranians split from each other. The approximate time of the Indo-Aryans reaching India is between 2000 to 1200 BCE. Old Indic Sanskrit was largely oral and the earliest writings appear in the 6th century BCE so your dating isn't accurate. In addition, early Avestan writings are very close to contemporary as well, and neither is the oldest writing in the world as papyrus specimens in Egypt and tablets in Sumeria are far older than anything in India found thus. Writing is invented by the Sumerians with the Phoenicians developing the first alphabet so again I think you need to study the other world civilzations before making the claim that Indian writings are the earliest. If anything, the oral hymns may be AMONGST the oldest in the world, but there is no way to verify other than going by the Vedas which are written in an archaic form and suggest a recent split with Iranian (thus dating back to 1500 to 1200 BCE in oral form). Also, the earliest Indo-aryan writing do not appear in India but in Syria among the Mitanni, whose language was Hurrian but with Indo-Aryan vocabulary and deities of Indo-Iranian origin which suggests that this branch split off and headed west from Central Asia after the Indo-Iranian split. The Mitanni ruling dynasty is believed to be Indo-Aryans whereas settlement is believed to have been sparse. As for dark skinned Indians or whatever, I wasn't even talking about their phenotype, but rather their genotypes. Genetic studies support the view that only a limited amount of Aryans (or West Eurasians) came to India (and created the caste system to survive and spread their languages etc.) as they merged with the locals. The view that an unmixed Aryan population came and darkened over time is not particularly relevant or even proveable since intermarriage took place as attested by the common genes found in South Asian populations. You're again mistaken if you think that North Indians are completely distinct from Dravidians etc. as they've all intermarried over the centuries and only vary in some circumstances and extreme regions. There isn't any really viable 'proof' that Aryans migrated out of India that has been deemed plausible by the vast majority of Indo-European researchers. If you choose to believe a fringe theory that has little backing, that's your business, but I'd hardly put these theories on equal footing given the preponderance of evidence that backs an Aryan migration from Central Asia. Also the fighting between the Dasas and Aryans is now interpreted to mean religious differences rather than race. Your views on race are very archaic frankly as the academic community has moved on. It's not really that highly debated as only one of these theories is considered plausible by the vast majority of academics and that is the origin theory out of Eurasia. The Indian view sounds like a nationalist perspective that has little support outside of India itself. This isn't only an Indian nationalist phenomenon as the Chinese think the world's first man was Chinese, even though most researchers back an origin in sub-Saharan Africa. Sorry, but I don't agree that this out of India theory is even remotely equal to the out of Eurasia view given the disproportionate academic weight attached. Tombseye 09:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Tombseye, I know about the Summerian tablets and egyptian writings, but Vedas are the oldest LITERATURE and that's what I said. It's absolutely not that I have no idea of other civilizations and I am simply claiming... of course even our Indus Valley writings are older than Vedas, practically, but see once again, I am talking of literature, and if you read around, that is the practically accepted fact. And why do you think I am taking views on the topic from you guys? It's because I am not very well versed into the subject and hence expect to get a view. Thanx guys... I now get a broader perspective of the topic and not just the one dimensional view that I got from pro-anti-Aryan Invasion Theory articles. But if you notice, the Aryan Invasion Theory is heavily debated on Wikipedia too... so I am not completely wrong now am I? There are many more arguing on the subjet, who are probably much more well versed in the subject. Anyhow, it was pretty elightening to get the views from you. If I come across some other good points, I will definitely post it down here. CaptainRon

LGBT Indians
That's an interesting stub. You might consider finding some way to include the following: Salim Kidwai and Gayatri Reddy. I started both of those. If we have perhaps a dozen LGBT Indians, it might be possible to get a category made for this topic and then include that in each page. Inter lingua talk 04:46, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd suggest several things.

First, we've got at least two categories, one for articles that spells out "lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgendered" Category:Lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender people, and the for stubs that uses the abbreviation LGBT LGBT stubs. I guess what we should do is work with these two. We can share ideas about whom to include and then make sure we've tagged them with either/both these categories. Then, we can start working on expanding the stubs.

Second, I'd prefer using a broader category of "South Asian" rather than Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan, Nepali. So many people are going to be at home in English or, if they're part of the diaspora only  in English, that it makes sense to include them in one group. Even those who are going to be active in non-English languages will often find that these cut across national boundaries.

Third, I'd like to include, as I alluded, diaspora South Asians as well. Hanif Kureishi, Shyam Selvadurai, Ghalib Shiraz Dhalla, Harjant Gill, Ruth Vanita, Elizabeth Abraham, Sunil Gupta (London-based photography).

Fourth, perhaps we will also want to include diaspora non-South Asians who have lived in and written about LGBT South Asia: Andrew Harvey (born in Tamil Nadu to missionary parents, author of Burning Houses), Adam Mars-Jones (a story in Granta 75), Barry John (theater person who's been in Delhi for decades), etc. Inter lingua talk 06:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

re: Ethnicity
Hi, Afghan Historian. I'm Indian, and like you, would call myself of Indo-Aryan ancestry. BTW, if you know the Persian script, could you verify that I have done this translation from Amir Khusro correctly:

اَگر فِردؤس بر رُو-ائے زمین اَست، ہمین اَست-او ہمین اَست-او ہمین اَست۔

Regards, deeptrivia (talk) 05:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikibreak
How does that look? &mdash; Khoikhoi 22:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject The Beatles Newsletter, Issue 3, July 2006

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Central Asia
WikiProject Central Asia has finally been created! If you're interested, please consider joining us. Aelfthrytha 21:36, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Novels WikiProject Newsletter July 2006
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Parsis are not indian
Regarding your comments parsis are indian, their language does not change their ethnicity. However their mixture with indians are mild and have not changed their ethnicity either. I put it in your own words: read Parsi for details. And i advice you to refrain from accusing me of having an agenda. -- Spahbod 08:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

In response to your message
Fact Number One = All Parsis are of Persian origin Fact Number Two = Freddie Mercury was a Parsi Simple logic observation = Freddie Mercury was of Persian origin. Second of all, the Parsis left Iran so they can keep their Persian identity after the Islamic conquest. To say they are Indian is contrary to the reasoning for their migration. Thirdly, Bulsara may be Indian but Farrokh is a Persian name. Also VH1's Freddie Mecrcury: Untold Story is not a valid source. They have been known for publishing false information ( Calling the Persian Gulf, Arabic Gulf). Furthermore, I do not disagree that in his birth certificate it says Indian, however that in no way contradicts the fact that Parsis's are of Persian origin. Which is my argument behind the "of Persian Origin" in the article. Another point I want to make is, If you are to use someone elses idea of themselves as an argument User: Sohrab Irani for example. Then why not use Freddie's idea of himself. Whom is perhaps more relevant than User: Sohrab Irani?

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Hi AH
Please visit page and add your personal email (if you don't mind) at the bottom for better collaboration, networking and comunication. Thanks :) Omerlives

India Pakistan History
Hi, Thanks for your comments. As far as your question is concerned, Pakistan and India has no cultural difference and Indian history cannot be understood without the going through the history of the region called Pakistan as the ancient indians I mean Darividian were expelled from this region to south Aryans got entry from this region and the classics of hindu mythology I mean all the Vedas have been written here in the land of Sappat Sindhu(thta region of river INdus and its tributries like Kabul, Jhelum, Chenab, Ravi Satluj, Ghagra) and whole the Indo Aryan civillization was developed in the region now in Pakistan. All the emperrors on the "Dehli Throne" have always been influential on this region. The only difference there exists is the relegion and the other one the influence of Middle East and Central Asia over this region Now comes the qusetion that so called Pakistani historians deny any kind of relation with Indian history ??

So that is the political need to keep alive the "Two Nation Theory".

Hope that would be enough otherwise never mind asking.

By The I am also interrested in the history of "Hazaras" of Bamian.

Parsis
Parsis are Indians of Persian descent. That's a fact, please don't change it. --Mardavich 15:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

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And Quiet Flows the Don
Ok, you did ask! Could you work up a short "spoiler free" ==Plot introduction== section as a taster to the novel. And then perhaps could you have a go at a more comprehensive ==Plot summary== (which may include spoilers). If your memory doesn't run that far, do what you can, thanks. :: Kevinalewis  :  (Talk Page) / (Desk)  17:07, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

History of Pakistan
Please see my comments here on what I feel of just one paragraph of the article. I admit I haven't read the whole thing but the lead is historically flawed.  Noble eagle    (Talk)   07:58, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank-you for those comments. I agree with them all. It's just that if you want to write on the History of Ancient Pakistan (which some would say there is no such thing) then you can write about civilizations that lie in the region now considered Pakistan, but refer to them by the Civilization name (ie. Indus Valley Civilization) after mentioning once or twice that they lie in the Pakistan region. In India's history the entirety of India has been split into ethnic groups, language groups, different monarchies etc. Thus one can say that Pakistan lies over the regions of Sindh, Balochistan, Western Punjab etc. and discuss the history of those groups. As for "India Zindabad", it is still commonly used in Hindi. That is even more proof of the overlap between Indian and Pakistani histories, the fact that Urdu and Hindi are so similar.  Noble eagle    (Talk)   23:31, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually the "Hind" in "Jai Hind" isn't Sanskrit.Hkelkar 04:34, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Palestine
I agree with you on this issue. I have had many arguments with certain Wikipedian that control the Palestine page filled with Zionist point of view. My change have been reverted, They plainly told me to create another page about Palestine. Siddiqui 16:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

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This is an automated delivery by grafikbot -- 20:41, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi!
Hello Khalid/ AH whcih would you prefer being called? Anyway thanks for msging me, yes it is always a pleasure exchanging ideas with people who have experienced similar cultures and picked out different things from them in life.

To answer your question, I've read somewhere that the Mahsud dance for example was in fact used as a warm up for troops as well as a way to test if their guns worked!. It is possible that the Khattak dance had a similar raison d'etre ..I somehow doubt the whole greek link, after all the Khattaks if one traces their route of progression and migration, had little to do with the greeks. The main pakhtun tyribe if any to come in contact with Alexanders Army would have been your tribes people because of the Khyber pass, and perhaps the original swati tribe as well as the yousafzais. Alexanders armies travelled north and east crossing the indus and north till upper swat.

Btw how can you dislike the Ewoks and like jar jar binks?? --Zak 23:33, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well younger kids apparently love the new trilogy..kids eh? I think episode 3 was pretty good personally speaking. I grew up on the original trilogy and the new ones could never really compete..have you seen serenity? now thats a star wars style movie. --Zak 18:27, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yup I'm a fan of the original series as well..great stuff Joss Whedon is a brilliant writer. I was quite a sci fi buff in my times. --Zak 17:22, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * No problems Khalid I'd love to keep chatting with you switch to my e mail address if you want faster responses tho :P zakksez@yahoo.com To answer your question, I subscribe to Ayesha Jalals opinion that Pakistan in its 1947 form was not Jinnahs choice it was an option forced on him by Congress intransigence particularly over the cabinet mission plan. --Zak 00:25, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Proposed merge
Hmmm...interesting idea, I'd suggest bringing it up at WP:INWNB and the Pakistani Wikipedians Noticeboard. We can decide together and conduct the merge to History of the Indian subcontinent which goes up to Partition then splits into three articles. However, all three article should begin with a section that deals with Pre-Partition History briefly. It may also be hard to persuade people that put in so much hard work to merge articles and reduce History of India and History of Pakistan to something which deals with 50 years of history. Many would argue that it's perfectly justifiable for History of India to cover the entire Indian subcontinent (it is the Indian subcontinent). It'll take some persuading.  Noble eagle   [TALK]  [C] 06:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Please vote
Please take a look at Stub types for deletion/Log/2006/October/16. It seems that some people want to remove any reference to Palestine.

Also, this article is nominated for deletion Third_holiest_site_in_Islam, but some people who want to question Al-Quds significance in Islam want the article to stay. Please vote for delete.--Palestine48 06:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

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Photos
Hello, I was writing an entry on Serbian Wikipedia about Urdu language. I am having hard time finding interesting pictures with everyday object that have Urdu script on them. If you would happen to have any magazines or daily newspapers or chocolate wrappers or CDs from Pakistan, with Urdu on them, could you take a photo of them and either post it on Wiki commons or take the photo and release rights into public domain? I would really appreciated it!

this is the link to Serbian Urdu page Urdu. It is in Serbian, so you may not understand it, but you can see photos I have there now.

Thank you again,

Svetlana Miljkovic 20:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Pashtun people
Salaam Afghan Historian! I'd like to thank you for all the great work you have done on Wikipedia. Occasionally I will see your comments and contributions to articles that I also edit. I feel you do a great job, especially in showing the commonality between Pakistanis and Indians. Today, I noticed your comment on the Pashtun talk and saw that it had great merit. The entertainment section seemed cluttered to me as well. As a result, I went ahead and removed the picture of Mirwais Ahmadzai as he was not mentioned in the section. I also wanted to give you some information on Shah Rukh Khan. His parents were Hindko speaking Pashtuns that moved to Delhi, India from Peshawar, India. Here's a source I found regarding his ethnicity: Shah Rukh Khan and Dilip Kumar. Thanks for all help and contributions Afghan Historian! Please let me know how you feel about my changes in the article. Khuda hafiz, AnupamTalk 02:38, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hello. Regarding this issue, the Hindkowans aren't technically Pashtuns, but a closely related overlapping group with a language that is similar to Punjabi and yet have mingled with Pashto speakers and culturally are almost identical to them. They are though as different as Tajiks are from Persians. The article loses all semblance in academic reality when it's expanded to this degree. The Pashtuns we are focused on live primarily in Afghanistan and western Pakistan. The other groups aren't technically included and this is the case in every reference book that I used when I nominated the article. As per Bollywood actors, the section has again ballooned and is written badly and is a pointless addition. Clearly, Dilip Kumar/Yusuf Khan and Feroz Khan are Pashtuns, but the inclusion of the rest doesn't seem logical. The Indian dimension is more remote like that of Iran (where Pashtuns have also played a prominent role at times) whereas our focus should be on the Pashtunistan region. Tombseye 22:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


 * As far as I know there is a small population of Iranian ex-pats in Pakistan who speak Farsi, but I doubt they exceed 100,000. I encountered one during my travels there, but I imagine that was just pure luck. Most are Tajiks, native Wakhi and also the small Dehwaris in Baluchistan. Now again we have Shah Rukh Khan back on the page. I really don't understand why people fail to see that there are distinction between groups even when they overlap and that in nearly every encyclopedia the academic view is that Pashtuns speak Pashto (even if they speak Hindko or Dari also). The article is moving too far outside the Pashtunistan region. The discussion of Siraikis who are of Pathan descent is barely tolerable as they are nearby, but going past that we have a further and further expansion of Pashtuns that simply doesn't jibe with academic perspectives. I can't be a watchdog for the page as I'm a lot more busy than I used to be lately, but I thought I'd check in after getting an email from Khoikhoi. At any rate, I don't know what can be done if people just randomly want to put in whatever they feel like and don't understand the rationale as to why certain things are and aren't included in this article. Tombseye 05:19, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: About pictures of Pakistani memorabilia
sorry for a late response! :) Well, it's not an emergency, so it's perfectly fine to wait until you come back from home. When you do go, could you perhaps take photos (if you have digital camera) of maybe a street sign, or anything that has nastaliq script, and/or latin based script. I was really thrilled when I found a photo for the Urdu article I wrote in Serbian wikipedia with street stand selling bracelet with stuff written in it. Kind of nice to have scene from everyday life. Hope you have fun at home! :)

Svetlana Miljkovic 07:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Northwest Frontier
Actually, the NWFP sits mostly on the Iranian plateau while its eastern edges are peripheral to the subcontinent. See the link provided. The quake took place along the Eurasian and subcontinent region as Kashmir is also largely located in Eurasia, while its extreme southern regions are on the subcontinent. See also the landplate designation. Cheers. Tombseye 17:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Regarding Persians, this is where the number is derived: The Persian Diaspora. It apparently comes from a Persian "Christian" group and also includes 40,000 in Pakistan and 50,000 in the C.I.S. region as well. These are Iranians who left Iran after the Revolution, BUT the problem is that in addition to wondering how these numbers have derived who determines whether they are all Persians as they could just as well be Azeris, Kurds, Baluchis, Arabs, Turkmen etc. Tombseye 23:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

"Zoroastrianism and Hinduism" article
Hello. It is good that you are contributing to the article with lots of hisotry studies. but I wanted to know why you think that the Vedas condemn idol worship. Also, the Magi preists do not descend from the Rajputs. The Magis are from the same Iranian background as the Rajputs but the Magi are their preists.

Thank you

Maleabroad

Thank you for your response. Well there cannot be a Brahmin caste "among" the Rajputs as Rajputs are Kshatriyas, but yes I understand. The Magas were the the preists of the Iranian tribes that migrated to India.

Also, did the Iranians really worship Daevas if Iranians believed that Daevas were demons? In the Rgveda, Shri Varuna and Shri Mitra are called asuras but are still worshipped. Do you believe that the Iranian god Indar and Indra were worshipped as the same god or as different gods? Maleabroad

Battle of Ghazni
Hi There,

I just created this article, Battle of Ghazni. I was wondering whether you could add links to this article on other articles so that it generates traffic and people can come and improve this article. Thank you. Mercenary2k 05:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

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This is an automated delivery by grafikbot 22:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

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Hello dear saw ur message for Famous sindhi ,so i though to help you

here is List of Famous sindhi's(in this article you can find list of Sindhi's)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sindh

Some Sindhi Some Sindhi personalities / dignitaries who born in Sindh / Sindhi families & earned international name / reputation

link (http://www.sindhtoday.net/celebrity.htm)

IF you need more help let me know

Khalidkhoso 12:17, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!
In Him was life, and that life was the Light of men. John 1:4 KJV Dear , Love came to a stable on that very special night to bring us out of darkness into His glorious light. May Jesus touch your life with gladness and warm your heart with love as we celebrate His birth. I hope you have a Blessed Christmas, AnupamTalk 06:14, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Reply
Salaam Khalid. Thanks for the information on Shah Rukh Khan and Hindkowans. I knew about their ethnic situation but was pleased to learn their views towards their ethnic group. Your comments have presented me with a question however: Do most Hindkowans view themseleves as Pathans? Your reply would be much appreciated. As for your views towards India and Pakistan, they are aligned with my own. Thanks for all your help, AnupamTalk 06:47, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, thanks for the insight. It did prove to be helpful. Your kindness in answering my questions is greatly appreciated. With regards, AnupamTalk 06:42, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The Novels WikiProject Newsletter: Issue VII - December 2006
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This is an automated delivery by grafikbot 19:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

"I found this page called Zoroastrianism and Hinduism, comparing and contrasting between the two faiths. The page was very biased, full of what I thought was Hindu nationalist POV. I edited it to conform to NPOV standards."

First of all, you did not find that page, it was me. Second, there is no Hindu nationalist writings in the article. You are not of Zoroastrian or Parsi background. Maleabroad

Geography
I simply think that the Greater Middle East is a viable term, not b/c the Bush admin. popularized it as they borrowed it anyway, and allows Pakistan to be bi-regional or tri-regional (if we go with your view on Central Asian NWFP). I personally think the NWFP is very similar to places in Iran and thus is Middle Eastern simply due to similarity with Iran and not the Arab states that are more remote. Regardless, listing countries as overlapping when they are on cultural fringes seems like a viable way to explain the complexities of geopolitics and cultural affiliations. Otherwise people will falsely believe that Pakistan is simply an Urdu speaking Muslim majority region carved out of India, when that really only applies to Punjab and Sind and not to the west (and even then not entirely but they are South Asian culturally and linguistically). Tombseye 02:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * See because Balochistan and the NWFP are Middle Eastern (Central Asian is geographic rather than cultural) it can be listed in both South Asia and the Middle East (secondarily). I'm okay just a mention of the Greater Middle East, but many academic departments list it as biregional or triregional because of its disparate parts which makes sense. The NWFP was actually very closely linked to the Iranian cultural sphere. The main 2nd language before the British was Persian for example. Its link to Iran is substantial and something writers like Olaf Caroe personally viewed as palpable. Its Central Asianness is simply geographic (and Central Asia itself varies, but is today a region of its own due to the Soviets). Now you see how this works? We can't easily define these regions because there is so much overlap. Thus, the logical thing to do is show that regions can be transitional (terms like South-Central Asia make sense in this regard). I don't think it's a problem for Pakistan to be listed in both South Asia and the Middle East as these are all arbitrary terms that vary in their geographic scope and meaning. It's still South Asian first and Middle Eastern/Central Asian second simply due to population. Tombseye 19:30, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

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Taj Mahal RFC

 * I've filed an RFC relating to the Taj Mahal at Talk:Taj Mahal. Your comments would be welcome. Joopercoopers 17:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Bill Shanahan
A tag has been placed on Bill Shanahan, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done because the article seems to be about a person, group of people, band, club, company, or web content, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable, that is, why an article about that subject should be included in Wikipedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not assert notability may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, and if you can indicate why the subject of this article is notable, you may contest the tagging. To do this, add  on the top of the page (below the existing db tag) and leave a note on the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would confirm its subject's notability under the guidelines.

For guidelines on specific types of articles, you may want to check out our criteria for biographies, for web sites, for bands, or for companies. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Murderbike 07:07, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Your India page edits
Hi there, I understand (now) what you are trying to do, but the India page can probably only allow one sentence on it, if that; and that will need to be discussed on the talk page section I have created. The proper place to add the material would be either the IVC page itself, or the History of India page, or Out of India page. The problem with the India page is that it is already stretched, with various parties clamoring to add more, and other parties like me trying to hold them off. BTW, if you are interested you might want to read the Witzel-Farmer article (as well as Amartya Sen's extended quote) I posted on Unre4L's talk page. See User_talk:Unre4L Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  23:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * PS Hi, I've started a RfC Talk:India. Any comments and feedback will be welcome!   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  03:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * PPS Hi again, one thing you could do (if you want to) is to distill your addition to, say, one or two sentences and then respond in the section Talk:India. I think it would have a better chance of being discussed seriously.  My description of your edit in that section now sounds a little terse, but no ill-will was intended there.  I was just matter-of-factly trying to find some consensus.  Thanks.  06:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Novels newsletter : Issue IX - February 2007
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Delivered by grafikbot 16:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

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delivered by ++Larbot - run by User:Lar - t/c 02:37, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Re: request
Hey. User accounts, once created, cannot be removed. I suppose I could block you, but I don't think that's necessary. I'm sorry to see you leaving, after having seen your many positive contributions to Wikipedia. :-( Take care, Khoikhoi 12:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Hephtalites
You make a good point. If you read Tremblays french paper, he also says Hephtalite language is an Iranian language but not Soghdian but perhaps Pashtun or close to it. Interestingly enough one of the Hephtalite kings in the Shahnameh is called Faghanish. And also another interesting thing is the connection between abdali tribe and evdal (another ancient pronounciation of hephtalite). --alidoostzadeh 01:23, 18 February 2007 (UTC)