User talk:Agapetos angel/archive trolling

False Accusation
Please delete your attempt to sign my name to a poll immediately. Your deceitful behaviour is not appreciated. Guettarda 00:33, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I did not, as I explained in talk, commit 'forgery'. It was a summary of opinions, not a signature on a poll. agapetos_angel 00:57, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Names on a list is a forgery unless the owner's added their own names. What is so hard to understand about this? There is a misunderstanding, but it is yours. Remove the names. All of them that you added, except "Agapetos angel". KillerChihuahua?!? 01:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree, but made the suggested revision already so Blind Freddy can see that it was summary, not poll. agapetos_angel 01:10, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * What exactly do you mean by "Blind Freddy"? Looking over your use of Guettarda's username at Talk:Jonathan_Sarfati, it's pretty clear what you were attempting to do. And adding/signing the usernames of others there crossed the line. I've warned you about POV pushing already, and you've chosen to dismiss or discount my warnings. Your actions there are rapidly approaching the point where others will legitimately demand administrative intervention to put right. Again, I suggest you take a wikibreak from this article, find something non-controversial to edit for a while, and use that time to rethink you participation on this topic. When you've got 3 admins telling you to chill out you're likely doing something very wrong. As for this "poll/summary" of yours, its time has long passed, you're merely using it to force the issue for your version of the content, which others have rightly identified as pov. This situation is addressed specifically at Straw polls: "If you try to force an issue with a poll, expect severe opposition, people adding a "polls are evil and stupid" option and your poll not being regarded as binding." FeloniousMonk 16:41, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I have responded to this in the appropriate talk. Blind Freddy is an Australian euphemism, the meaning of which is obvious.  Review of your participation in the discussion, with its false accusations and ad homs, would show that your 'admonishment' comes with conflict-of-interest.  I would kindly suggest that you step back and examine your behaviour, as it does not represent the standards of impartiality necessary for an admin.  There was assumed malice where none was intended.  The summary that was misconstrued came after an attempt at a poll, and therefore, was not signatures on a poll, but rather a listing of names that participated or 'rang in'.  After discussion with KC, I made the changes she requested/required.  Ringing in after the fact only emphasises your attempts to discredit me, as illustrated several times in talk, as an editor, rather than either responding to content, or attempting to assist me and the other editors who are working together with compromise to achieve a well-written article. agapetos_angel 03:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I see that you are still putting words in my mouth over there. I asked you to remove those claims. Why are you attributing opinions to me that I have not expressed? Guettarda 02:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Guettarda, expressing that you disagree with my assessment, that your dissent was implied, after my assessment is appropriate. Editing my post was not. agapetos_angel 04:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You are dishonestly characterising my contribution and you refuse to remove the offending material - in fact, after I struck out your comments you replaced them This behaviour is totally out of line and deply dishonest.  Guettarda 04:36, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I 'characterised' your response to the subject rather than posting all your objections. You did, in fact, edit my comment, and after KC requested/required that I make changed, I removed your edit to MY post.  You have no right to edit my post in any fashion.  Complain after the fact, but leave my postings alone. agapetos_angel 04:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * First you signed my name to a list. When I struck it out you replaced it with a post that stated I did not say what I said.  I am fed up of your intentional mischaracterisation of what I said.  I can edit your post to remove personal attacks, and I can edit your post to remove lies about me.  It isn't like I made it look like you were saying what I had to say - unlike you.  Lay off the dishonesty.  Stop making claims in my name which are outright false.  Is that too much to ask?  There is no reason that I have to tolerate your mischaracterisation.  I asked you to change it, you refused.  I am under no obligation to tolerate your dishonesty.  Guettarda 05:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I, as requested by an admin after you complained, changed the bullet list that was misconstued as a poll (even though it came after the 'poll' and was obviously a summary). Saying that your dissent was implied was not dishonest, and regardless of that fact, did not give you the right to edit my postings in any way.   Your disagreement with my assessment, posted after my assessment, would have been sufficient.  Your continued editing (and now deletion) of my postings is not appropriate.  agapetos_angel


 * It is dishonest to keep insisting that I said something when I said nothing of the sort. You don't have to right to make dishonest claims about what I said.  If you refuse to remove them, then I have no choice but to remove them.  It isn't a matter of "disagreement with my assessment" - you are making outright brazenly false statements, and you insisted on making them despite my insistence that you remove the misleading material.  You have no right to put words in my mouth.  You have no right to insist on your right to lie.  You can't just go around claiming that people said things they did not say.  Why is it too much to ask that you quit attributing statements to me which I did not make and did not imply?  Guettarda 05:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Your post in this section is the latest of your complaints, which only continues to support my point that it was implied that you do not agree with the header revision as proposed. You have NO right to remove or alter my posts in any fashion. Complain if you must, but do not edit my posts. agapetos_angel 05:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Your insistence that you have a right to lie about what other people have said is highly disturbing. Stop making dishonest claims about what people have said and you won't have to worry about people removing those claims.  Simple enough.  Guettarda 05:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I have - (diff - 15:30, 2 February 2006) - shown an example where you dispute the intro as it was proposed (by revision of same), which is sufficient to show that I was not being dishonest. Dissent means to "differ in opinion or feeling; disagree".  If you did not dissent/disagree with the header as it was proposed, then why did you edit away to another version, and why did you post this critique?  This continued accusation of my supposed dishonesty is refuted by evidence to the contrary.  You complained erroneously, and then compounded the complaint with inappropriate editing of my posts. Please stop doing that and we'll stop having this problem.  THAT is simple enough. agapetos_angel 06:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I reverted to a previous version which did not have the nonsense that the anon had inserted. How is that possibly related to the intro?
 * How does that action allow you to claim I have an opinion on your proposed change? Guettarda 12:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * That revert included changing the intro and was accompanied by the comment 'more accurate wording'. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were not edit warring, but that the revert of the intro was genuine disagreement.agapetos_angel 23:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Accusations refuted by evidence
(1) 12:25, 8 February 2006 Guettarda striking out text in my post and adding text to my post

(2) 12:27, 8 February 2006 Guettarda rolls back 12:25, 8 February 2006 Revision

(3) 12:29, 8 February 2006 Guettarda reinstates the strike out of text in my post and adds text to my post, diff between (1) and (3) seems to be the closing strike out tag

(4) 14:38, 8 February 2006 Guettarda removing the postings of several editors and adding commentary/post" Since Agapetos angel refuses to remove his/her mischaracterisation of my opinion and has re-instated the erroneous comment after I struck it through, I am left with no choice but to remove the entire offensive section"

(1) and (2) are only important to show a timeline.

Note that there were no other edits made to that section between the striking out and the claim that I reinstated the text.

Second false accusation, again refuted by the evidence.

agapetos_angel 07:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Comments on "evidence"
What are you talking about here? I hit save instead of preview and rolled back the change. Then I struck out the post and added a comment in small saying why I struck out the post, and posted here asking you to remove the text. It was a temporary measure to allow you to remove the offensive text. When you refused I had no choice but to remove the entire post. If you refuse to refactor your false allegation, I have no choice but to remove the post. It's your refusal to cease your dishonesty that forced my hand. Guettarda 12:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I pointed out that (1) and (2) only were important to show a timeline. You accused me of "re-instated the erroneous comment after [you] struck it through".  I proved that I did no such thing. agapetos_angel 23:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * What nonsense are you talking about?
 * I struck out your lie
 * you reinstated it
 * Why are you denying what is obvious in the page history? Who do you think you are fooling?  Is it your idea of proof to add totally unrelated diffs?  Guettarda 04:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

This is the evidence of False Accustion

 * Guettarda, you have falsely accused me, and I have shown that by the evidence. Posting the two diffs above, and adding commentary to them now in retrospect that does not match the chain of events, does not support this false accusation.
 * originally version and diff is your edit to my text
 * KillerChihuahua became involved
 * I stipulated it was not another poll, but a summary list AFTER the poll
 * KillerChihuahua objected
 * you made the first strike out in my text
 * I replied again that 'poll' was a mistaken assumption
 * I apologized for any misunderstanding caused by my formatting of the summary
 * KillerChihuahua said "Never place names in a list like that, ever ever."
 * I edited the text as KillerChihuahua required, under protest, comment: '(revised as demanded 01:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC))'
 * THAT removed your strikeout. KC required it; I complied under protest.  Your most recent false accusation does not stand up to the context of the evidence.
 * AFTER THAT: Guettarda: strikeout # 2 to my revised post
 * Guettarda: rolls back 12:25, 8 February 2006 Revision
 * Guettarda: reinstates the strike out # 2 after fixing closing strike out tag
 * Guettarda removes postings by several editors
 * You made a second strikeout, Guettarda, after which I had no further edits to that section before you made the delete which removed the context to show I was not lying, and left your false accusation.
 * I would chalk this up to a misunderstanding, had you not kept accusing me falsely, even after I presented the diffs to show you that you were wrong. After posting those diffs, you replied, then later said you didn't see the evidence (i.e., the diffs).agapetos_angel 05:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Guettara's reply
KC told you to remove everyone else's name but your own. She did not tell you to reinstate the assertions regarding me. If you had simply done as she asked, the material would have been removed. Instead, you chose to reinstate the content that I has asked you to remove. After I gave you a few days to comply with my original request, I checked back and foudn that you had reinstated the lie. Please stop pretending to be a victim. You post false assertions about me, repeatedly and then you claim that I am accusing you falsely? Have you no shame? You lie, you lie about lying, and then you accuse me of lying? You posted diffs that could in no way be considered evidence since they are totally unrelated to either of your sets of falsehoods. You have yet to provide a shred of evidence in support of your false assertions. You are still lying despite the fact that I have posted evidence that your second set of claims (the assertion that you have posted evidence to support your initial assertion) is patently false. I am totally baffled at why you keep asserting things that are patently and demostrably false. Guettarda 05:55, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Guettarda, for the last time, stop trolling my talk page. You falsely accused me, and I provided evidence that it is false. Enough is enough. Any further postings from you on here will be considered vandalism. agapetos_angel 06:00, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Further Comments on evidence
AA, your evidence shows only that you persisted in stating "what Guettarda thought" after being asked, then told not to do so. Guettarda was well within guidelines to strike-through and then remove, with an appropriate comment, your doing so.

A summary reads like this: "Well, it looks like we're fairly evenly split on Bumpkis was a farmer, and Bumpkis was an agriculturalist, with one lone holdout for Bumpkis was a gardener."

Please note the lack of editors' names involved in that summary. KillerChihuahua?!? 10:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Your version of a summary reads without editor's names, that's true. Mine does not.   However, this does not mean that mine against any written policy, as far as I am aware.  You warned me based on your assumption of malice that I was inserting names in a poll.  I showed how the listing of names was not a poll, but came afterwards to summarize.  Under protest and with explanation, I even complied with your requirement by making an edit so it did not look like a poll.  It is not required, however, that I edit my opinion that Guettarda implied dissent to the revision, especially as the evidence has born out that my opinion is correct by the revision and the critique.  I did not state "what Guettarda thought".  I stated what I thought, that the dissent was implied.  I'm sorry that you disagree, but until it can be shown that policy prevents saying that an editor implied something, especially when evidence shows that to be true, the point stands that the deletion of my (and the other editor's) postings was not appropriate.  All that served to do was to leave the complaint, without the evidence that the complaint was invalid.  I am trying to be reasonable.  I made the edit so that it was extremely clear that it was my opinion in a summary of events.  I have even asked Guettarda in Talk why he thinks my assessment based on the evidence is incorrect.  This is active listening.  X relates what they think Y said.  I was attempting to come to a consensus in each dispute by asking if my assessments of the points made so far was accurate.  If you note, I did this in several sections,not just that one.  Why Guettarda got angry, and remains angry, I am trying to ascertain in a 'step back and see the other point of view', but I still fail to see how I misrepresented him in any way, shape, or form.
 * Secondly, I don't appreciate that FM falsely accused me, and posted my old IP on the Talk page, as well as revealing where I am located, and his other subsequent personal comments that are unrelated to content. This is, to my viewpoint, a very harsh breach of admin responsibility to good behaviour and a serious offence.  After your strong admonishments to me on the above issue, I would ask if you please would apply equally impartial (and proportionate) admonishment to FM's actions in Talk.  Thank you agapetos_angel 12:11, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Seriously - first you falsely attribute opinions to me, then you claim that there is "evidence" to support your false claim, then you present to be confused about why I am upset with your lies, and then you have the gall to complain about "false accusations"? And you claim to be "listening"? Why are you making all this up? Guettarda 16:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I stated what I thought, that the dissent was implied - so you feel that you have the right to make up falsehoods?
 * but until it can be shown that policy prevents saying that an editor implied something, especially when evidence shows that to be true, the point stands that the deletion of my (and the other editor's) postings was not appropriate - You don't have the right to attribute an opinion to me which I have not expressed, and your protestations to the contrary, there is no evidence to support your allegation. Your allegation false.
 * All that served to do was to leave the complaint, without the evidence that the complaint was invalid - The complaint was valid. There was never any evidence to support your false statement.
 * I am trying to be reasonable - how is it reasonable to insist on your right to post false statements?
 * I have even asked Guettarda in Talk why he thinks my assessment based on the evidence is incorrect - for one, this is a loaded question; please point me to the posting, I don't recall noticing it; what evidence?
 * This is active listening - active listening? You post a false statement about me.  I ask you to remove it.  You refuse.  I remove it.  You complain.  If this is your idea of listening (disregarding what other people say and pretending to be the wronged party rather than the aggressor) I'd hate to think what your idea of "not listening" is.
 * Why Guettarda got angry, and remains angry, I am trying to ascertain in a 'step back and see the other point of view', but I still fail to see how I misrepresented him in any way, shape, or form. - what a crock. It's very simple why I am upset.  You attributed opinions to me which were false.  When you make stuff up that's false, it misrepresents people.  How could you possibly find that hard to understand?
 * I don't appreciate that FM falsely accused me - if he actually were falsely accusing you, it would mean that he was doing what you were doing. If you don't appreciate being falsely accused, you should make certain that you don't falsely accuse others.


 * Repeating a false accusation does not give it validity. Again, as I have responded above, the accusation of "re-instated the erroneous comment after I struck it through" is false as shown in the evidence.The accusation of dishonesty is false, as I gave you the benefit of the doubt that your (15:30, 2 February 2006) revision of the intro was not edit warring, but an honest disagreement with the content.  Therefore, it was not dishonest to say that disagreement was implied.  I am asking you now to show how I am 'making all this up'.  Thank you. agapetos_angel 23:26, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * You say above, 'please point me to the posting, I don't recall noticing it; what evidence?' after you responded in the areas above that includes links to and explanation of the evidence. I have repeated these links in the paragraph immediately above. agapetos_angel 23:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * What are you talking about? I have asked you to withdraw your lies - you have not made any attempt to support your dishonest assertion.  Are you going to apologise for your lies?  How can you say that your assertion was not false?  What "evidence" are you talking about?  What does my reversion of the anon's pov-pushing have to do with your proposed changes?  As for your second point - the material I commented on is not evidence.  You have still not provided any evidence for your assertion.  You compound your lies about me with lies about providing evidence to support your lies?  Why do you persist in your dishonesty?  Guettarda 04:43, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I am asking you now, Guettarda, to please stop trolling my talk page. I hate to put it that strongly, but as this most recent response is merely a near duplication of your false accusations with no refutation of the evidence I provided.  Therefore, I am asking you to cease these accusations which I have proven to be false. agapetos_angel 04:50, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Apologise for your lies, and I will stop asking you to withdraw them. You have yet to provide a shred of evidence in support of your allegations.  You have provided some totally unrelated diffs and claimed that there is some relevance there.  Strike your comments, apologise for your dishonesty and I will let the matter drop.  I have no intention of allowing you to continue making these dishonest allegations about me.  I have given you several days to act, and you have just heaped on fresh lies.  I see no reason why I should tolerate your libel.  Guettarda 05:00, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * AA, you really need to just offer a sincere apology to Guettarda, I've been watching this for some time now and he's in the right here and you're on very shaky ground. FeloniousMonk 05:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * FYI - Calling something vandalism that is not vandalism does not exempt you from the 3rr. Guettarda 06:08, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

-

Trolling
I used this word, recognising that it is a strong accusation, but supported by above, I don't think it was an inappropriate one. [Internet troll] is defined on Wikipedia as:
 * In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who posts rude or offensive messages on the Internet, such as on online discussion forums, to disrupt discussion or to upset its participants. "Troll" can also mean the message itself or be a verb meaning to post such messages. "Trolling" is also commonly used to describe the activity.

The use of false accusations as character assignation is a common ploy in debate, usually found on the political arena. This is usually the result of a lack of ability to respond to debate points and come to agreements through compromise. As the discussion in the article's talk has been disrupted several times, and as the messages which include continued assertions of lying and other false accustions that fly in the face of the evidence were being continued, the attempt to upset this participant was obvious. Ergo, the use of trolling. This was not intended to be commentary about the contributor, but of the actions. agapetos_angel 06:34, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Furthermore, regarding complaints that I personally attacked Guettarda by requesting that he stop trolling: Guettarda removed the one comment I left on his talk page with the same sort of comment regarding 'trolling' as well as having a statement at the top of his talk page about how trolling would be removed.  That evidence was used to point out that the complaint was contrived, at which time he archived and removed that phrase from his talk page. agapetos_angel 10:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)