User talk:Aivazovsky/Archive 1

Name-changing
Hi Clevelander, Thanks for being honest about the name-changing bit. I'm just a bit paranoid lately about making sure everything's perfect for the featured article review, so don't mind me. :) One thing, though -- make sure you log in when you edit a page; this does two things: (1) it gives you personally credit for the editing you've done, and (2) the chances of me calling you out on a talk page are much less. :)  Thanks again for all your work; it's much appreciated. Take care -- Pack n Canes  |   say something!   23:22, 15 October 2005 (UTC)


 * No problem, PacknCanes! -- Clevelander 01:43, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Cleveland photo copyright debate
Hi. I had a peek at some of the photos you've uploaded. They all seem to be scanned images from copyrighted materials, yet you've tagged them as being in the public domain. What's the story? - EurekaLott 00:49, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Which ones are you referring to specifically? The ones from the League of Women Voters' "Seven Making History" book are PD, that I'm almost certain. - Clevelander 01:13, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
 * While I'm not familiar with that book, it looks like it covers recent history and is copyright 1990. I don't know why it would be in the public domain. For starters, it looks like all the images in the History of Cleveland, Ohio and Terminal Tower articles are problematic. You know what you've uploaded better than I do. - EurekaLott 01:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay, sorry. I'll change them.  I'm new and I apologize if I'm causing any problems. - Clevelander
 * I'm afraid that changing the tags to fair use isn't going to cut it. If the images are copyrighted and are being used without permission, they need to be deleted, not reclassified. - EurekaLott 02:26, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've gone back and started looking over all of my sources for my uploaded images, instead of just blindly changing tags. So far, most of them are okay to include on Wikipedia (and would be classified as PD).  These have been taken from library collections and from defunct newspapers (such as The Cleveland Press).  However, I still need to research a few of the mayoral portrait photographs (on such figures as Johnson, Farley, Hopkins, Baehr, and Baker).  I'll let you know about these in a few days. - Best Regards, Clevelander

Thanks for the information, but alas, "available to the general public" and "The Cleveland State University Library allows reproductions of materials from Special Collections for the purposes of research, scholarship, teaching, news reporting, criticism, or comment" do not mean that these materials were in the public domain. CSU explicitly states that it "makes no representation of copyright ownership for the non-digital materials in Special Collections. For example, copyright ownership of Newspaper Enterprise Association (NEA), Acme, or United Press International (UPI) photographs may still remain with those organizations. Organizations and individuals seeking to use materials for publication must obtain permission directly from the appropriate copyright holder." (emphasis mine). In fact, at, the CSU even writes that "you are responsible for how you intend to use these materials. We assume you are using them for purposes covered under Fair Use regulations." (link added). I don't know about the WRHS (their web site gives me an internal server error), but they certainly won't claim copyright on most of their holdings, either. Lupo 07:48, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Asking CSU for permission is probably futile, because they won't be in a position to grant you whatever permission on items to which they don't hold the copyright. But you're welcome to try. However, please note that they must grant permission to license the works under a free license (GFDL, some Creative Commons Licenses, public domain, etc.). Saying "yes, you may use them on Wikipedia" is not good enough; that'd be a "by permission only" license, and those are no longer tolerated as per Jimbo's decree. A free license must allow anyone to use the work for any purpose, subject only to proper attribution. That includes commercial uses, republishing, redistributing derivative works etc. Lupo 12:05, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * So they wrote: "Yes, our low-resolution images on the Cleveland Memory Project are available for use in educational projects like this, with a proper photo credit and link back to CMP. We request that the original photographer's name (if given) and the collection name be included in the credit." I've highlighted the problems. A free license must also allow the use in non-educational projects, and not require a backlink. We on Wikipedia would probably even voluntarily put such a backlink on the image description page to give the source of the image, but we cannot require all our downstream users to do so, too. And "educational use only" is not free, either.


 * Let's take Image:Terminal-tower-construction.jpg as an example. It appears that this is the same image as this one from CMP, although the scratched-in date is missing in our version. CMP claims copyright. On what grounds they do so is unclear; they seem to have acquired these images from a donation; that process typically does not involve a transfer of copyrights, and it would be unclear anyway whether the donor held the copyright (normally, the photographer is the copyright holder). The image was taken on August 29, 1927 by one Robert E. Hawkins. Our version apparently was scanned from the book by Thea Gallo Becker. Where did she get the image from? When and where was the image first published, if at all? If it was, was the copyright renewed? (If published before 1964 and copyright was not renewed, or if published before 1989 without copyright notice, it'd actually be in the public domain). If it wasn't, when did Mr. Hawkins die, and when was the image eventually published? (If unpublished and if Mr. Hawkins died before 1935 and if the eventual publication did not occur between 1978 and 2002, it'd also be in the public domain.) All this might be very hard to research. Probably you're better off by just making a fair use claim: historic photograph, only small part of a whole series, mediocre scan of a quality sufficient for web publication, but unfit for serious print republication. Also give the photographer's name and the date on the image description page; and you also might want to include the link to the image description at the CMP.


 * I'm really sorry that this licensing business is such a hassle; I think these images are great, and we should use them, if we can. We surely can do so under the fair use doctrine, but I don't think that we will be able to show with reasonable certainty that these images were in the public domain.


 * When I ask for permission, I usually send them a letter (well, an e-mail) asking explicitly for a release under the GNU Free Documentation License, pointing out that this license
 * is the default license of Wikipedia,
 * requires proper attribution,
 * allows anyone to re-use the image for any purpose, even commercial ones, as long as the author(s) is/are credited and a copy of the text of GFDL is distributed with the image,
 * and to do so with derived works from that image (different crop or edited otherwise), again, with crediting all authors and distributing the GFDL text;
 * and that in my experience, the requirement to distribute the text of the GFDL with any redistributed image in practice is enough to prevent or at least discourage most serious commercial exploitations of the image.
 * Many, especially academic types, are quite happy to go along with this, and if they do, we're in the clear and just tag the image as GFDL, mention the explicit permission, and forward the permission e-mail, together with the inquiry e-mail, to permissions AT wikimedia.org.


 * Hope that helps, Lupo 08:58, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Yeah, nearly there. I have added a "fair use" rationale plus a few links, and re-added Becker's book (since it is published there, and apparently is where you got it from (it is a scan, right?), I believe that's important). Check that I didn't introduce any errors... Lupo 12:31, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I have seen you use that image's rationale (carefully adapted) for all the other images you mentioned. Looks very good! A pity the images from the Press Collection are not on-line at the CMP... Lupo 08:38, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Image:Frank-jackson.jpg and Image:Clevelandcityhall.jpg are mis-tagged. I cannot find either one on the given source web sites; could you please give more precise sources? I think the first might qualify as a Promophoto (i.e. "fair use"). The second one is most probably not a work of the federal government, and thus PD-USGov does not apply. Please also go through all the images you've uploaded and make sure they are not mis-tagged as being in the public domain. (This also includes all the WRHS images!) Lupo 08:23, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Linndale, Ohio
Nice rewrite. I think it should be included that African Americans ended up in Linndale because of racist housing covenants and discrimination in West Side neighborhoods. That's the story I was told growing up, although I don't have any good proof. DirectorStratton 05:22, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find any references on it, but no worries, I re-added it anyway. Glad you enjoyed my write-up on Linndale! -- Clevelander 12:23, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Changing Images
Why did you change the established images on Ukrainians and Poles? Antidote 02:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Re:Ukrainians and Poles
You can readd the Pope if you wish (I don't think anyone should have a problem with that), but I prefer to keep the Ukrainians image as it is only because the Yushenko bit might shake some people the wrong way. Also, there was no need to apologize, and I'm sorry if I came off accusatory. Antidote 20:40, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Nakhichevan
Hi, I would like to comment with regard to you recent edit to the article about Nakhichevan. In fact, this area is not a conflict zone, and your edit belongs to the article about Nagorno-Karabakh. If you noticed, Nakhichevan was never mentioned in the links you provided. I hope you won’t mind if I remove your addition, if you do, please let me know. Also please consider to add your very valuable information to the article about Nagorno-Karabakh. Regards, Grandmaster 14:05, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Great Work on Cold War
Hi Clevelander, just a quick note to thank you for all your work on Cold War and its subpages... Great to have a "comrade in arms". The work you did converting the maps to png was just great! Paul James Cowie 06:47, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Re:E-mail me
Hi Clevelander. You can e-mail me any time. You probably know that all you have to do is just click E-mail this user link on the left hand side of my talk page. Regards, Grandmaster 16:00, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Please try again now. It should be OK. I forgot to enable it, sorry. Grandmaster 18:37, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Cold War Maps
Hello. Under the terms of the copyright tag attached to your excellent Cold War maps, I am going to use two of them at one of my websites. Would it be possible for you to email me with your real name, so I can properly credit you for the artwork? If not, I will credit it simply to "wikipedia." Michael Dorosh 15:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Cilicia map
Hey the map you made for NK is quite impressive I was wondering if you could use your talents and create a map for Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia and perhaps the surrounding Crusader Kingdoms? The current map in the article isn't very good neither is the map in Crusader states.--Eupator 15:02, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey Celevelander, thank you for the map. It looks great and modern :) Is it possible to include the Crusader states as well? With Principality of Antiouch and the County of Edessa in particular, perhaps even Cyprus? The map then could be used for Crusader states and the various Crusades articles. None of the articles have modern maps. Btw, it would also be good to chnage Cilicia to somehtign else. The official name was Kingdom of Armenia but historians always called it Kingdom of Lesser Armenia much like Eastern Roman Empire is is Byzantium so if you oculd fit Kingdom of Lesser Armenia that would be great. Examples: 1, 2.--Eupator 00:06, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually I just relaized it's from the 1265 map. So you can jsut add 1265 on the map and just rename Cilicia to Kingdom of Armenia or Kingdom of Lesser Armenia.--Eupator 00:18, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

1959
Hi Clevelander, I was just wondering why Congo and Uganda are shown as part of Belgian Congo in your 1959 cold war map? I think that rep of Congo was French and Uganda was British then. --Astrokey 44 05:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Nakhichevan
Hi Clevelander. Yes, I have sources for all my edits. This is from the book by Thomas de Waal called Black Garden. See an excerpt from the chapter 5 - Yerevan: Mysteries of the East.

''Yet by the twentieth century the Azerbaijanis people, who had lived in Eastern Armenia for centuries, had become its silent guests, marginalized and discriminated against. The Armenians asserted their right to their homeland at the expense of these people. In 1918 – 1920, tens of thousands Azerbaijanis were expelled from Zangezur. In 1940s, tens of thousands more were deported to Azerbaijan to make way for incoming Armenian immigrants from Diaspora. The last cleansing, in 1988 – 1989, got rid of the rest''.

I can provide you with the full text of Stalin's decree on deportation of Azeris from Armenia to make space for Armenian immigrants. Regards, Grandmaster 11:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don’t take the disputes to the personal level. We may have disagreements, but still respect each other. Take care. Grandmaster 11:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you
Thank you Cleveland, I'm honored.--MarshallBagramyan 02:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Hamshenis
Hello. The favourite instrument for the W. group is the bagpipe, for the E. group is the flute. What do the people from the N. group prefer? Behemoth 01:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * So, you mean duduk, for example? BTW, why did you erase the italics for "Hemşince"? Behemoth 01:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It's because of the ambguity of the name "Hemşince". For example, if you ask the people of the W. group if they speak Hemşince, they will say that they don't, the people of Hopa are the ones who speak Hemşince. "Hemşince" is usually used for Homshetsi in Turkish. But, when a speaker of standard Turkish has difficulty in understanding their dialect and asks them why, they will answer "Because we speak Hemşince". Behemoth 01:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Ciao! Behemoth 01:31, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

"What do the people from the N. group prefer?" Can it be zurna? What do you think? Ciao! Behemoth 04:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Evolution of the Soviet Republics from 1922 to 1958
I accidentally noticed your map Image:Evolution of Soviet Republics.png doesn't show territorial changes in Europe (only the annexation of Japanese Karafuto). Also the Soviet expansion after WWII should mention Polish territories (much larger then the parts of Czechoslovakia and Romania)

Map
Hey Cleve, I think the map should give a good picture of where the fighting took place. I'm thinking that perhaps we should include two maps: one showing the location of Armenia, Azerbaijan, perhaps Turkey and Russia, and of course Karabakh and the other showing the locations of key cities in Karabakh. The cities and towns in Karabakh should be mainly those that major firefights took place: Stepanakert, Shusha, Hadrut, Fizuli, Kelbajar, Agdam, Khojaly, Lachin, etc. If you need a reference, here's good place. Try not to write the names of countries horizontally, I don't most maps list the name of countries or cities like that. Thanks for putting in the effort.--MarshallBagramyan 17:41, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm, this one is better but I don't like all those microrayon borders since they cluster up the map and that the names of the cities are all denoted by starts (might confuse readers into thinking which capital is which, use a round black dot instead). If you use something close to the map on the left part of the page here and simply zoom in slightly to focus on Karabakh and its cities (keep the old map key), I think it would be much better. If you can include some key roads include the Lachin corridor's that would be good too.


 * Edit:By the way, I'm thinking of creating at least two more detailed articles related to Nagorno-Karabakh's history: one that entails from the Sovietization phase from 1915-1923 and one that talks about the movement sparked from 1988-1991 or to present day; the latter which could be continously updated along with the war article.


 * Keep up the good work. Regards--MarshallBagramyan 03:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, that one's better but do you think we can bring it any closer to something like this ? I know I might be asking you for too much but its worth a try isn't it? ;) If not, then we can just zoom out a little so readers can get a bigger picture of the area. I'll e-mail you on my opinion of the conflict. Regards.--MarshallBagramyan 18:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the late response Cleve, I had finals this week and was studying so I didn't have time to respond back. I think using your old map will do. If not, I'll try to make one and show you it.--MarshallBagramyan 21:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Azerbaijan map
I don't have a larger one of that, but I can whip one up. I have a blank version at Image:Azerbaijan districts blank.png if you want to do something with that; it is much bigger. --Golbez 18:06, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I just took a closer look at your locator map for N-K, and noticed you kept my dashed lines for the northeast and northwest. Those were there because the Azeri rayons there are split between Azerbaijan and N-K; you may want to solidify the line, as a dashed line like that implies an uncertain border. The border of N-K is very certain. --Golbez 18:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Question
Hello. The term "Tajik" is only a loose expression applied to sedentary, Persian-speaking people in Central-Asia ... it'S not really the name of an "ethnic group". "Tajik" is a synonym for "Persian" is given to heterogenious group of Persian-speakers.

I've never been to Tajikistan, but I do know Tajikistanis. There are differences between the Tajiks of Tajikistan and the Persian-speakers of Afghanistan ... but all in one, Persian-speakers in the region (including Persians of Iran) are not really different: same history, same culture, same language (with minor differences in dialects and accents), etc.

A good comparison is Germany. Germans, German-speaking Austrians, German-speaking Swiss people, etc are not really "different" from each other .... the same goes to Americans, English, Australians, and so on.

Tājik 15:00, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Looks good
Hey Cleve, looks good, almost makes me jealous that I am unable to claim credit for it =). I'd like to add more info but I'm already editing 3-4 articles at the same time. Take a look at the Karabakh war page and the recent information I just added. Ignore the last two edits since they involve grammar errors and tell me what you think. Take care.--MarshallBagramyan 04:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, I was thinking, is it possible to create an infobox on the bottom of Nagorno-Karabakh related articles in much the same way there is on the bottoms of the Cold War and World War II articles? I think we have enough articles, and enough ones to be created. WHat do you think? Also, for the Sumgait, article, I was thinking of having 2-3 pictures including drawings of the neighborhoods and perhaps having the one you upload be shown near the "Pogroms" section rather than right up on the top. --MarshallBagramyan 18:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That's great!. I think we can change the order of the items a bit but its a good start and excellent reference point to go back on Karabakh related articles. Thanks.--MarshallBagramyan 19:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Assyrian Church of the East (ACOE)
Hi there Clevlander. First, I want to thank you for your work on improving Assyrian related pages. Second, the ACOE is neither part of Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodoxy. The main difference is that EA accepts 7 Ecumenical councils and OO accepts 3...ACOE falls in neither, because it accepts only 2 ecumenical councils (Council of Nicaea and the First Council of Constantinople.) In the Oriental Orthodoxy, it talks more about the difference between it and ACOE. If you have any other questions, please let me know :) Chaldean 22:20, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, and one thing you should check out is the page Nestorianism. This explains ACOE very well. The Assyrian church is sometimes reffered to as "Nestorian church." Chaldean 22:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Clevander, when you click on the source of that statistic (4), it actually says 10,000. I corrected this before in the Armenians page, but it was changed again. Chaldean 22:55, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you might find this interesting; Armenoid. Very silly IMO :D Chaldean 23:33, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I am so happy when I heared about (Nagorno-Karabakh referundum) this! :D I'm praying to God it goes through. Chaldean 13:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Hemşin
Barev,

You might want to have a look a this and this. I agree with the anon about the deletion of the last sentence, as it's unecessary, but I believe their Armenian origins should be mentioned. Ciao. &mdash; Khoikhoi 05:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, you might try adding a citation that says the Hamshenis are of Armenian origin, I think that would help. BTW, is "Hamshenis" the most common name? Without quotes, it only gets 1,620 Google hits. Kenats't! &mdash; Khoikhoi 20:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The Turkish name, Hemşinli, only gets 900-something hits. Is this term used widely? &mdash; Khoikhoi 21:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Maps
If you can wait, give me until tomorrow where I can check up on Richard Hovanessian's four volume work on the Republic of Armenia. I'll scan a page of the map if I find a suitable one. Is there any specific time period? 1918? 1920? Before or after the Turkish invasions?--MarshallBagramyan 23:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, check out this page here and keep clicking on the arrows on the right till you get to it. Its Armenia in 1920. I don't know if Hewsen is Armenian or not, but I highly doubt it. I'll try to find the 1918 map if its any different than the one above.--MarshallBagramyan 00:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

My position
Hey Cleve, I told you I'd email you but apparently you haven't specified your email on Wikipedia yet. But a while back you asked about my position on the issue of Karabakh. I think that the Karabakh Armenians have a right to secede. However that position compromises the premise - if 99% of Ohioans want to withdraw from the US, do they have the right? I think the fact that the land was partitioned and annexed to Azerbaijan in 1923 is the entire reason why many of us feel so passionately about it. Its about correcting a historical wrong, of aligning a misalignment caused by that smug looking, mustachioed thug from Georgia. Its delicate but, 94% of the region was Armenian in 1923 and after being Azerified, was nearly 75% Armenian. It has historical churches and forts which are of Armenian origin. Too many things to list. How did it go with the map?--MarshallBagramyan 05:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Re
I e-mailed him with the link to the talk page and told him that azeris are using parts of the article out of context to whitewash the destruction of Armenian khachkars. Eupator


 * Barev XXXXX,


 * Azeris are always doing such things, but you know I am not going to

disclaim in blogs. If it'll be the serious site, may be. I don't need to wage war by blogs. You read my article, so you can write yourself in that blog, that Azeri editors used quotes from Armenian articles out of context.

Thank you for your attention and respond. Regards Edik

Edik Baghdasaryan Head of Investigative journalists of Armenia Editor "Hetq" on-line

8th Floor,1/3 Buzand Street Yerevan, Armenia. Tel: (374 10) 563363 Mob: (374 91) 404624 Fax: (374 10) 581102 URL: www.hetq.am --Eupator 23:56, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

New War?
Hey Cleve, this is just a message I posted at Eupator's talk page. The topic is on a new war with Karabakh so give it a read, and if you're interested we can discuss more about it.

I just realized your "busy" label on the top of this article but if you can, maybe we can talk about this together with Tigran, Cleve, and perhaps Moosh. I just finished reading this and it seems it maybe the final nail for the coffin of the peace process so to speak. I'm not sure how familiar you are with military doctrine and stuff like that, I'm quite new to it, but it would be an interesting issue to discuss. The film looks great, I just hope the next ones will all be about the 1992-1994 and I just hope that I'll never have to turn to writing a "Nagorno-Karabakh War Pt. II" article.--MarshallBagramyan 15:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Heh, looks like you're very picky on spelling and grammar issues on Wikipedia - I like that, I'm like that too ;). I, frankly don't favor Armenians living under Azeri control, no matter how much autonomy there is on paper. Its somewhat closer to overall distrust for the Azeris: their destruction of cultural artifacts, their belligerent finger waving and bellicose language, their equating of us to the Nazis, the treatment of Armenians not only in Sumgait, but in Baku, in Kirovobad (Ganje), in Hadrut, at Maragha, of Gurgen Markarian. The list goes on and it only proves that Armenians will not remain safe under their control. It will become much like the Israeli-Arab conflict in Gaza or East Jerusalem or the West Bank. Thousands of Armenians died to free the country from its oppressors twelve years ago and we are going to allow them to retain back the territory? I'm willing for some compromise such as allowing most, if not all the Azeri refugees back but ceding the territory is tantamount to the American colonists giving back South Carolina to the British during the Revolutionary War after forcing them to the sea.


 * I understand the regions of Kelbajar and Fizuli belong to the Azeris more or less, but I surely don't want Nagorno-Karabakh to be an island surrounded by fire. Just think of what will happen if we do cede the territory, revenge killings, pogroms this time in Shusha and Stepanakert, repeats of Sumgait at much greater magnitudes. Its general mistrust against others that is so prevalant amongst us Armenians. Surely a war could be much more devastating for Azerbaijan if it decides to invade, the buffer zone is covered with so many land mines that'll it give the Korean DMZ a run for its money. You can't liberate a region that doesn't even want you to liberate it. France was liberated, Belgium was liberated, Poland was liberated more or less, but Nagorno-Karabakh is like you compared, like Hungary. There's a reason why the people chose to declare their independence. I'd like Nagorno-Karabakh to be state of its own but would prefer it even more if it united with Armenia. I think we all know what the Azeri editors on this encylopedia want: "Of course we don't want war and want to resolve this diplomatically, but if it need be, we'll take it by force." That's a prevailing sentiment. If they do invade, and we do beat them back, then understand we won't have any better choice than to make a drive straight to Baku. As Andrei Sakharov once said before he passed away, "For the Azeris, Nagorno-Karabakh is a matter of ambition, for Armenians, its a matter of life and death."--MarshallBagramyan 17:43, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That's exactly what was going to happen had Russia not forced Armenians to stop the advance, the first aim being Getashen.--Eupator 23:28, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Listen to this analysis on the right side of the page. Pretty interesting, Aliev might afterall not be the one who calls the shots on Nagorno-Karabakh.--MarshallBagramyan 22:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey Cleve, sorry for the late response. In reply to your last message, I'd favor indpendence but would believe it would be all the best if there is one Armenian country and not two, where Karabakh would become an autonomous republic in Armenia. I liked the analysis made by the the Armenian on RFE but I felt his comments on that the Soviet military doctrine was a practical failure and things such as hazing continue in the Armenian army, were out of place and inaccurate. But I'm glad he was impartial about it and didn't choose to take any sides during the Q&A session. Also, in regards to Azerbaijan's outlandish military spending, I think we can all learn from the conditions of the people living in North Korea where their GDP is spen so much money on defense and so little for the people themselves, that this will do Azerbaijan little good. I think the key issue here is that Armenians have the will to fight because they are fighting for their survival, the Azeris, for a piece of land they think is theirs but never was.--MarshallBagramyan 16:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Seems too simplistic a solution. Is Azerbaijan going to be surprised when 100% of the enclave, or if the displaced Azeris are included, 75% of Armenians vote for seccession? No, something seems out of place, I suspect some sort of nefarious going on here. Especially the new US mediator's comments which, the US position has always been pro-Azeri:


 * "Bryza confirmed that it calls for the holding of a referendum in Karabakh after the liberation of Armenian-occupied territories in Azerbaijan surrounding the disputed enclave."


 * More like thanks but no thanks.--MarshallBagramyan 22:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks
Howdy Clevelander. I've actually considered creating the project, but I'm afraid there are not many Georgians active on wiki. Anyway, it would be really great if you could help me in starting it. What about starting an Armenia portal? We already have a Georgian counterpart. I'd like also to thank you very much for supporting Georgia's unity. Best regards,--Kober 05:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I joined the Armenia project as I've been long interested in Armenian history and culture.

Jabrayil
Not that I know of. This map is one of my sources, and note it has no alternate name for that town, like it does for Lachin, Zangilan, etc. --Golbez 22:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The Karabakh government officially calls Jebrail Ջրակն (Jrakn) now. --RaffiKojian 05:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I should add it is in the Hadrut district according to that map, btw. --RaffiKojian 05:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Genocide Timeline
Hey Cleves, sorry for my late responses. The article looks good and I might contribute a little also in adding sources including the Hitler quote which many Turks think was never uttered by Hitler. Keep up the good work, what do you think of the section on Kelbajar in the war article?--MarshallBagramyan 15:50, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * According to most sources, none. I also specify that in the footnote on Monte Melkonian who was the commander of the fighting forces to take Kelbajar.--MarshallBagramyan 16:00, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Edit: well, none, militarily that is. Fighters like Melkonian had came from Lebanon (he was imprisoned in France before coming to Armenia) and Syria but that's not tantamount to saying their governments sent weapons and aid. Greece sent a great deal of economic aid also but none militarily. It was basically Russia and and weapons being smuggled in by Diaspora groups.--MarshallBagramyan 16:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you
Thank you for helping to input the Asian national anthems template on the various individual Asian anthems pages. It's greatly appreciated. Badagnani 21:50, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

The Railway
Yup, seems illogical to place the railroad through there and seems completely logical through Turkish-Azeri mindsets, just take the Baku-Tiflis-Jeyhan pipeline for example. Its simply to anger Armenia because of Karabakh, but I guess as a plus side, they lose millions doing it so its not so bad. Turkey, which obviously has the beef and "4-conditional rules" with Armenia; Azerbaijan which is simply still trying to anger Armenia because it holds 14% of "its" land; and Georgia simply plays along with whomever can benefit it the most, I don't consider them allies at all, and don't like their people either. By the way take a look at this, its obvious the guy making these articles, OttomanReference, is trying to create the image that the volunteer units were so vast that they even warrant articles. Can you give him a warning that if he does include them, then he must explicitly cite the Armenian Genocide in the context? The guy is Turkish so we both can expect the same thign on his perception of 1915. If he refuses, I'll nominate that article, the Armenian "revolution at Van" and other such nonsense for immediate deletion. Circulate that among the other users too so they can be aware of the stuff that's being allowed to be used as educational material through Wikipedia. Thanks.--MarshallBagramyan 21:29, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Armenicum is from Nagorno Karabakh Republic
To answer your question I am from NKR -- Armenicum 09:40, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

First Republic in 1915 ? Waaat? ==  ==

Insert non-formatted text here -   -    -    - See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Armenian_Republic_%281915%29 -   -    - and this -   - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_volunteer_units

Cretanforever == == I just research on this author (Cretanforever) and find out he is spreading misinformation all around Wikipedia on articles which they are related Turkish/Ottoman related crimes. He seems to me working for Turkish government.--CalUserWiki 19:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Image:RussianLanguageMap.png
Please see Image_talk:RussianLanguageMap.png and comment as you see appropriate. Thanks. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 19:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Armenian volunteer units
Ya, I think Ottoman Reference has created to many of the articles and I'm sure we can either purge or merge them. Take a look at the NK War page with the new quotes I added, tell me what you think of them.--MarshallBagramyan 20:07, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your comments, as always their always much appreciated. This is just one small stepping stone among many and I have already nominated it for GA status. The Van Uprising I wanted to change to the "Van Defence" since uprising is an inaccurate term in regards to the evidence.--MarshallBagramyan 21:26, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds much better. My learning of English in Armenia was the English form from England so I'm still correcting my mistakes and adapting to American English.--MarshallBagramyan 00:23, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Taking a break
Hey Cleve, I'm going to be taking a break from Wikipedia for the next few days so if you have any concerns, just add them to talk page. I won't be doing any editing but will occasionally be check. Take care.--MarshallBagramyan 05:44, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks
...for resolving those issues. I'm currently going through Category:Timelines, and will be moving the Post-Armenian genocide timeline to a sub-category soon. &mdash;Viriditas | Talk 04:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Clevelander. Thanks for your voting and support on the Georgia talk page. All the best, --Kober 11:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Images
Dear Clevelander, Please use this images for armenian articles. They are nice photos and will be useful for armenia related articles.

Done
I'm happy to announce that the war section of the Nagorno-Karabakh War article is officially done.--MarshallBagramyan 03:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Women
Hey Cleve, thanks for the congratulations, We're almost done with the article and we might even finish it before its read up for GA status. In reference to the picture of the women, I scanned it from one of the very books cited on the NK War page, called "Ethnic Cleansing in Nagorno-Karabakh" by Caroline Cox's CSI group. I doubt its part of Wegner's photographs however. Then again, its source is from the German National Archives so you never know.--MarshallBagramyan 02:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Armenians picture
Hey, I'm not very pleased with the current header picture. Just letting you know that I want to chnage it in the near future. No matter what Tigran has to be one of them.--Eupator 22:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I like it, I only disagree with Minas Avetisyan. There are two much more famous ones. Martiros Saryan and Ivan Aivazovsky. Gotta think about the more recent one and the female one ...--Eupator 02:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds good about Aivazovsky. It's going to be tough regarding a female, given that Armenians essentially always had a patriarchal society and still do.--Eupator 00:21, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well done.--Eupator 01:48, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Renaming an image
Hey a guy I know recently uploaded a bunch of photos he took in Armenia to Commons, I modified the license tags for him etc. but the image names have the generic camera generated designation. Are you aware of how they can be changed? You can see them here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=Gegman --Eupator 14:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

AM Portal
Started Portal:Armenia --Eupator 00:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks
Much appreciated, even though I hate commies :) --Eupator 23:27, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Translating the Azeri SSR anthem
If you want some help on translating it, I can do it.--MarshallBagramyan 18:32, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Is the Tajik SSR anthem written in Farsi? I can translate some of that but I originally asked to help out on the Azeri SSR anthem which I understand much better. And still checking on Nakhichevan.--MarshallBagramyan 21:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Why yes I am.--MarshallBagramyan 02:01, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I forget where Walker studied but I know he holds a degree(s) in history at a high level British University (Oxford maybe). Cornell seems more like a political scientest rather than a historical scholar. His entire biography is littered in oil politics and the Middle East. I don't know how far a degree in "Peace and Conflict" and "International" studies. The languages he speaks fluently are, in particular, Turkish and Azeri. Now what has precluded him from learning Armenian out of curiosity? The guy's education has come quite alot from Turkey. The guy is drenched in enough oil to supply the United States' demands for a month. There's no question which side he has pledged allegiance to. --MarshallBagramyan 17:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Check our Richard H.'s four volume history on Armenia from 1918-1920. Wouldn't know which volume to exactly direct you to but the fourth (Sovietization) and the first (inception) seem like good places to start.--MarshallBagramyan 00:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If you check out Richard H's Works Cited, much of it comes from unbiased sources or straight from the Soviet Armenian, German, Turkish, United States, and British archives. Its not so much the author you should be worried about but who he cites to prove his argument. --MarshallBagramyan 01:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I doubt it, I'll back you up if you need it as I have complete access to all four volumes.--MarshallBagramyan 01:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

ASALA
No problem, I'll be watching it. &mdash; Khoikhoi 20:23, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Iran official language
The reason that there were two closing parens )) at the end of official languages was that there were two imbedded parentheticals, the first gave the name of the laguage in Arabic, and the second gave the transliteration of that name. So, either the second closing ) needs to be restored, or the two parentheticals need to be reduced to a single one such as (فارسی translitered as Fārsi). I prefer the first solution. Bejnar 00:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Nakhichevan
Hi. Please don't remove my additions, I cited an authoritative source, which is as good as yours. If you have problems, let's discuss them, otherwise the article will get protected and locked for editing. Grandmaster 11:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * What's the point of your current rv? Looks like you are trying to supress information. Grandmaster 11:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Nakhijevan in GA
See: http://www.armenianway.com/Great_Armenia/Hayk_Index_eng.html I'll give you sources tomorrow.--Eupator 00:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Re:Nakhichevan
Hi Clevelander. Nakhichevan was taken, in 1211/2, by the Armeno-Georgian prince Zachary who ruled many Armenian lands under the authority of the Georgian queen Tamar. It remained in the possession of the Zacharid house and was plundered by the Mongols in 1220 and Khwarezmians in 1225. The Zacharids lost it to the Mongol lords in 1236 when the Caucasus was invaded by Chormaqan. The History of Christian Caucasus by Cyril Toumanoff probably covers the events in greater details, but, unfortunately, I don’t have that book at hand. I’ll give you more sources if I find them in English. Regards, --Kober 04:32, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Just a small addition. Zacharyan Armenia (i.e. the lands ruled by Zacharid/zacharyan princes), were ruled as an independent principality. Zacharid princes were chief commanders (amirspasalar) in Georgian queen Tamar's court, so formally they were subject to the Georgian crown. But their lands outside Georgia proper (i.e. Zacharyan Armenia) were an independent principality. I am not sure what Toumanoff said, but being half Georgian (and half-Armenian), one would expect him to be at least slightly biased.

Before Zacharyans, Nakhichevan was in the very middle of the various Armenian kingdoms (Artashesyan, Arshakuni, Bagratuni). This is textbook stuff.--TigranTheGreat 08:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * With all due respect, Tigran, I have to disagree with you. Zacharid Armenia was indeed a dependency of Georgia and was within its borders but for a short time. It's clearly stated in all major works about the medieval Caucasian history. The Zacharids emerged from a petty nobility to a major feudal house when the kings of Georgia liberated northern Armenia from the Seljuk grasp and granted these lands (plus some territories in southeastern Georgia) to Prince Sarkis and his sons, Zachary and Ivane, in hereditary possession. The Zacharid princes did not pay taxes, but they were oblidged to support the Georgian crown with their armies. As for "Armeno-Georgian", this is a scholarly term used not only by Toumanoff, but also by Kazdhan, Minorsky, Sunny, etc. This term is usually applied to a number of noble fmailies active in the Armeno-Georgian marchlands like Tayk/Tao, Lori, etc. The fact that the Zacharids (actually, most medieval Armenian and Georgian sources knew them as Mkhrargrdzelis) were bicultural is testified by their bilingual inscriptions found in Lori, Ani and elswhere in the historic Armenian and Georgian lands. Subsequently, Ivane converted to Georgian Orthodox Christianity, while Zachary remained Armenian in his faith. Both lines went extinct when their sons died in the 1230s-40s. Their minor branches continued as a purely Georgian noble families of Gagels, Torels, etc.


 * Armenia and Georgia share much history together, and there was a constant flow of ideas and cultural dialogue between both nations. Kind regards, --Kober 09:10, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Kober, Mkhargrdzeli is a title not a name. Not all Zakardis had this title. The title began used starting from 1185, yet Zakarids served Georgia from 1100. It means dolgoruki (longhanded). The Zakarids were an offshot of the greater house of Artsrunis. --Eupator 21:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Please stop. You guys can argue, but not on my talk page.  -- Clevelander 22:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * არაფერს=You're welcome. You spelled Georgian გმადლობთ perfectly right :). Cheers, --Kober 09:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Walker
What's wrong with using Chris Walker's book on the Armenian SSR? I already used him on the Armenian WWII articles. In regards to Nakhichevan, what time period are we referring to? the 1920s or 1990s?--MarshallBagramyan 18:26, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you're thinking about Grigor Suny who supports the unification of Azerbaijan and calls the Genocide something that was not planned in its stead. Otherwise, Walker has been very forthcoming on Armenians in the books but I haven't heard much from him in the past few years.


 * I'm already checking news sources and have found some stuff from articles. I'm surprised that I didn't encounter the battles about it earlier.--MarshallBagramyan 18:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I guess it depends on what context Walker was using it in....you know his book can be found electronically online right? So far so good Nakhichevan but like I said, I'm not too knowledgable on the exclave's history.--MarshallBagramyan 19:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Nakichevan
Clev, I only have these two available. Ldingley 14:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Extra images
Clev, some extra images for you.

P.S. Give me your email, I have very interesting armenian photos for you. Ldingley 19:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

PD images
Hi Clevelander. I'm not sure if you have seen this website before, but it contains several amazing old pics of Armenian people. They are all in public domain. Regards, --Kober 17:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Nakhichevan statistics
According to Russian statistics at the time, Nakhichevan, in 1917, had the following demographics:


 * Muslims.......81,000
 * Armenians.....54,000

Or as Fadix said, about 40% of the region's population. I found the statistics in Richard G's "Republic of Armenia: Volume 1" on pages 90-91, citing the United States archives file RG 256, 867 B.000/10 and the Republic of Armenia's Archives, File 11/17, Patvirakutin, as his sources.--MarshallBagramyan 18:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The statistics that dispute it come from the time period of 1914, where Muslims represented a majority and had a superiority over Armenians in numbers. Nevertheless, Armenians comprised a sizeable community in Nakhichevan and it was throughout the Soviet period depopulated, not physically, but investments into the region like Karabakh was extremely limited including in newspapers, television programs, etc etc. --MarshallBagramyan 20:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I never said that they were supposed to be revealing something new, just a reconfirmation of what Fadix had said.--MarshallBagramyan 20:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe it does confirm something new--that the population remained at 40% in 1917. Considering that alot happened between 1914 and 1917--it is significant.--TigranTheGreat 02:20, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Syunik
Cleve, is there a reason to mention the NK control of the Azeri rayons in the article about Syunik? It's about Syunik, not NK--what's the relevance? It also borders on Iran--should way ad "which is under Islamic Revolutionary rule?"--TigranTheGreat 02:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Have a good vacation. Where are you going--Hungary or Armenia? ;)--TigranTheGreat 02:54, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

tajikistan
Do I look like get-images.com? hehehe i'm joking my dear Clev :) Let me ask some lunatics who went there, example: Mike McCormick (another idiot Scotsman, who thinks he is English). :) Ldingley 15:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Clev, how did you finish the Nagorno-Karabakh war? We have huge problems at Georgian-Abkhaz conflict. Russian users attacked it and started to change stuff, even references ones. Ldingley 15:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Clev, I emailed you the photos. Please mention his name when uploading. Im not good in tagging the images. Somebody should help me to understand this wiki system :). Laves! Ldingley 15:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Civil war + Dushambe riots. Ldingley 16:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

March
Wow! Thanks a lot for the link, man! Is this the same thing that appears in the Caucasian Sketches by Mikhail Ippolitov-Ivanov? He was a great fan of Georgian folk music and frequently used Georgian melodies in his compositions. Cheers, --Kober 16:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the kudos
I was real hesitant about replacing your Cleveland skyline picture, since it has been there as long as I can recall, and it is a lovely shot from the lake. I just wanted folks to see that the Forest City has a bit of green in it. Good work, yourself, by the bye. We've got a helluva city page, with much thanks going in your direction. --Avogadro 00:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Re:
I have more issues with Nakhichevan on your page. My biggest problem is that Josephus mentioning Nakhijevan is earlier than Ptolemy, thus making the Josephus quote the first attestation. The second major thing that I noticed for now is regarding Vaspurakan. Nakhichevan was never part of Vaspurakan. For a brief period the Artsrunis who ruled from Vaspurakan gained possesions in Syunik of which Nakhijevan was part of. I suggest you look at the maps at Armenica here  to get a visual idea.--Eupator 23:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, yes a portion of todays Nakhichevan was part of Vaspurakan province but most of it was under Syunik.--Eupator 23:43, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, it doesn't have to be perfect.--Eupator 00:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Clevelander, just letting you know that I will oppose the articles inclusion as a good article. Even though i'm satisfied with the Early History section, and the etymology section is sort of ok but far from good I find the rest of the article unbalanced. There are unresolved issues which we debated on this page for almost a year. Shah Abbas's targetting of Armenians for example is missing...the Russian and Soviet sections are full of Azeri pov.--Eupator 15:50, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Fine, I shall do that. We would both save time if you read the archives though. --Eupator 18:54, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm looks good, I'd take up on Eup's suggestions and I'll do some editing in fixing the sources to proper Wiki format. Keep up the good work.--MarshallBagramyan 19:01, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Several Catholicoi, the most prominent of them was Catholicos Hagop Jughaetsi who organized the meliks. I'll get you a list tomorrow afternoon.--Eupator 03:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Other than Hakob Jughatetsi (Jacob IV of Jugha (1655-1680)) there is also another Ejmiatsin Catholicos Alexander Jughatesi (Alexander I of Jugha (1706-1714)) and Catholicos Azaria I Jughayetsi (1584-1601) of the Holy See of Cilicia. There is philosopher Simeon Jughayetsi (died in 1675). Christopher Mikaelian/Kristapor Mikayelyan one of the founders of ARF. Also composer and director Aram Merangulyan. Nakhichevan ancestry but not born in:Komitas – his grandparents emigrated from Tsghna (Ցղնա) to Anatolia, and Aram Khachaturian, whose parents moved from Nakhijevan to Tiflis.--Eupator 23:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Syunik
Clevelander, "trading" compromises between two articles (i.e. "I will do this on Nakhichevan if you do this on Syunik") rewards attempts to make a point, which is forbidden in Wikipedia (see WP:POINT). GM tried to make a point by arguing "well, Nakhichevan page says this, so if we are going to adopt such a policy, then I will do the same on Syunik article." This is not the way Wikipedia works, so it is not wise to go along with such cross-article "negotiation." Each article has its own reasons and should be discussed on its own merits. Plus, it is not wise for you to "promise" something on the Nakhichevan page that you cannot stick to. You can't control what other users (including me) will edit on Nakhichevan and Syunik pages--and as far as I am concerned, there is no reason to include multinational spellings on Shunik page, while there is plenty of reason to include them on the Nakhichevan page (due to the Kars treaty etc).--TigranTheGreat 04:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Zaparojdik
I see that you have also encountered this user. He is vandalizing several articles, putting in his POV, not citing sources, and making crazy claims. What can we do? Please answer on my Talk.Khosrow II 16:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think thats a good idea. Are you going to do? If you do, tell me and I will support your. Khosrow II 16:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * See the talk page here: go under the section "Suggestion".  See how unreasonable and full of POV this user is. Read through the section real quick.Khosrow II 16:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Also see here: under section "map". He insists that Iran is half Turkic.Khosrow II 16:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Your changes to the map are ok, but he reverted it again. Can you please help me in watching the article and changing his edits? Thanks.Khosrow II 16:43, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * when will he be back?Khosrow II 17:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Re
No problem! :) &mdash; Khoikhoi 22:59, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Autonomous Oblasts of the Soviet Union
Hi, Clevelander! I hate to break it to you, after you've done a good chunk of work already, but Soviet autonomous oblasts actually have their own stubs. For example, you put the autonomous oblasts template to Tuva, while in fact it should have gone to Tuvan Autonomous Oblast. I'd appreciate if you could fix it; let me know if you need help. Nice template, by the way. Thanks!&mdash;Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think that the template now provides the majority of these articles' contents. Time to expand them, don't you think? ;) Anyway, thanks for taking care of that.&mdash;Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Infobox SSR
Thanks for the pointer, but that would take a lot of work to implement, since I'd have to convert it to straight HTML if I want optional fields like that. But I'll do that anyway (maybe tomorrow, though), because I guess it's important that all SSRs use the same infobox for further changes. Could you help me put the SSR infobox on all the different SSRs? It's a lot of work, and I could use some help. LittleDan talk 23:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I finished making those changes you suggested, thanks again. Do you think I should make the Established field optional? The Karelo-Finnish SSR lacks it, but Established is written anyway, so I'm not sure what I should do about it. LittleDan talk 12:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Genocide Infobox
Hey Cleves, nice work but I think most if not all Armenians recognize the Genocide. Perhaps you should refer it to some of the non-Armenians at Wikipedia. --MarshallBagramyan 02:17, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Did you see Andersens maps? Also maps by Andras Bereznay? Ldingley 20:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Andersens maps are very accurate (he is one of the best specialists of Caucasus in N America).

Here take a look: http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/Armenia/turkarwar.htm

and

http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/Armenia/collapse.htm

Credentials? he is a professor of History in Calgary. Published numerous books, articles in many journals. If he is not reliable source then what is? Ldingley 20:53, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Here:

Dr. Andrew Andersen - anders@allstream.net Andrew Andersen was born in the USSR and grew up in Siberia and Latvia. He received his Master's degree from Moscow State University in 1980 where he later taught. His Master's thesis covered the influence of the World Wars on 20th Century American literature. In 1984 he obtained his Ph.D. from Moscow State University. Andersen's Ph.D. thesis analyzed the evolution and transformation of American public opinion and mass-media coverage regarding the US role in the Vietnam War (1962-75). At the beginning of Perestroyka, Andersen left the USSR and settled in Germany where he coordinated a number of Eastern European seminars, courses and projects organized by Wirtschaftsakatdemie in Kiel (Schleswig-Holstein). In 1994 Andrew Andersen immigrated to Canada. Upon landing in Toronto (Ontario) he worked as a TV reporter and show co-host at Mix-TV Broadcasting Company. In 1996 he moved with his family to British Columbia. Between 1996 and 2003 Andrew Andersen taught various Political Science courses at the University of Victoria. In 2003 he was granted a position of research fellowship with the Centre of Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary. Andrew Andersen has written a number of books and articles for national and international professional magazines on ethnic, territorial and ideological conflicts, as well as on other international security-related issues

Nagorno-Karabakh
Hi, I am Georgian and I was just wondering that if the name "Nagorno"-Karabakh should be changed to "mountainous"-Karabakh, because 'nagorno" is just a Russian word as you know and Russian is not an official language of Armenia. For example in Georgian we say "Mtiani-Karabakhi" "mtiani" meaning mounatinous. Regards, Sosomk 09:12, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, I see. Calling it Mountainous Karabakh would be original research. I hope everything will be good soon in the region. Thanks Sosomk 18:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Suny
Eupator mentioned it a while ago, you should ask him.--MarshallBagramyan 19:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)