User talk:Akhilleus/archive2

English Passive Voice
Hail, son of Peleus of Thetis born! This is a heads-up to let you know I'm going to slash and burn the English Passive Voice article. Just wondering if you want to play, too? RJCraig 09:52, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

(PS. I've always liked the G(r)eeky spelling with kh for chi.)

Hi again; thanks for adding the boldface to the ditransitive egs! I added a bit to your explanation; maybe I'm being too picky?

Re will and has in the other egs: I didn't originally include them as part of the passive structure per se because I was thinking of them as indicators of tense & aspect. (Not objecting to your change, just clarifying.) RJCraig 00:12, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Howdy, again. I like what you've done re agency on the article.

Wondering a bit, though, on the syntax/morphology distinction you made at the beginning. The rule of thumb I used was "involves two words = syntax". (With selection of a particular morphological form (past participle) for the second word, of course.) RJCraig 03:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Re Minoan civilization mis-fix
Hmm, that was rather silly of me. Thanks for catching the mistake. CmdrObot 21:39, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Sappho translation suggestions?
Hello Akhilleus,

I saw your comment regarding a public domain translation I dropped onto the Sappho page and must say that I agree with you. These public domain alternatives are pretty lousy, to say the least. If you've got something better, please post it. The flavor of the original just doesn't carry through when the verses are fitted out with some sort of rhyme or when the stanzas are arranged in the styles of 19th century British doggerel. It's been years since I struggled with any of the poems in their original language but looking at the ancient poets' pages makes me want to take another try at it.

Thanks for the link to "Edges of the Earth."

Ande B. 02:43, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification about Wikipedia & original translations. I do some work in the field of intellectual property law, so I'm probably hypersensitive to fair use limitations and potentials for abuse. I don't want my on-line life to come back to haunt me at work! If you decide to try your hand at a new translation, I'd be happy to see it and suspect others would, too. Sometimes I find that the simplest translations give a better idea of the original than those that strive to be too artistic. Ande B. 06:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

random comment
A ship without a rudder will drift, from gibralta to the bahamas, on the gulf stream even today. The trip will take 60 - 90 days. —This unsigned comment was added by 68.166.199.128 (talk • contribs).

Oh, duh!
Sorry about the date revert on Minoan civilization. I guess I'm preprogrammed to see a single character change by an IP as vandalism. --Curtis Clark 18:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

minoan crete
Just wanted to say that I highly admire your work on that mess of an article. The darn thing was driving me nuts. And I don't even like the subject of minoan crete all that much (Or anything that's vaguely out of the realm of good solid history :-P).Truth be told, the whole subject drives me nuts. Anyway, good luck! Novium 09:52, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I have indeed been to crete. The problem is that I have an inherent distrust of civilizations without history, if that makes any sense. Or perhaps crete has made me that way. Like 90 percent of what is said about crete seems completely made up (and yes, I know, i made that up). I guess what it is is that people can and do take the vague remains of minoan crete and then use it to fit whatever agenda or wild fancies cross their minds. Which is done somewhat in more historical eras, but not to such a great extent. There at least you can point to the literary record as something that can at least provide a little context. it's something that eliminates the more out there theories. Anyway, rant over. Also, Knossos just grated on me. Arthur Evans and his archaeological technique. Gah. REBUILDING things, for god's sake! :-P Novium 19:47, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Joan of Arc
A quick update. I popped into a bookshop to search for up a recent book and decided on Jeanne d'Arc (Perrin, 2004) by Colette Beaune. I'm skimming through it &mdash; 320 pages to go &mdash; nothing much on visions so far but fascinating anyway. It contains some faint praise for Regine Pernoud in the intro, followed by a list of the reasons why Pernoud's work needed updating. Plenty of interesting material, some of which I will try and work in. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Pythia and Delphi
I have tried to take your comments on board. Unfortunately, in sleuthing the internet and other classical sources (many online) for Oracular pronouncements I haven't saved all sources. There are compilations of these I haven't consulted. Perhaps, should you want them I can give them to you.

Thanks for the vote of confidence

Warm regards

John D. Croft 22:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


 * See my comments to your changes to the Pythia article


 * Regards John D. Croft 23:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Akhilleus, I have added sources to the parts described. and provided additional notes to the points of contention. Hope this helps.  Regards John D. Croft 13:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Re: crackpot theory
Homer and western europe a.d. 2006

Denmark: graea, now graerup; hyle, now hyllebjerg; thisbe, now thisted; arne, now arna; scandeia, now skanderborg; nisa, now nissum;

France: orneia, now orne; corinthe, now courances (corintia in middle-ages!); cleonae, now cleon; gonoëssa, now gonesse; helice, now elyseé; thronium, now trugny (trun in 1059); tiryns, now thury-harcourt (tirins in middle-ages!); hermione, now hermanville; river aurus, now aure; hyampolis, now Janville (hiemivilla in 1130); aetole, now etaules; pleuron, now ploëron; nile, now -nil (for example: mesnil);

Alsace: cyllene, now selé(stat); rhipa, ribeauville; stratia, now strasbourg; parrhasia, now barr;

Spain: pylos, now pilas; gerenia, now gerena; sparta, now esparteros; sidon, now medina sidonia; ortygia, now ortigueira;

Low countries: thessalia, now tessel; alos, now alost; boudeion, now boudinkerke; phulake, now flakkee; pyrasos, now braassem; iton, now etten; antron (near the sea), now antwerp; calydne, now calland; sume, now sumar;

Great Britain: adrasteia, now ardrossan; percote, now perth; practius, now pratis; axius, now axe; cromna, now cromarty; aegialus, now aigas; erythini, now ericht; halizones, now halezy; halube, now halabezack; maeones, now meon; hyde, now hyden hill; temese, now thames (temes in middle-ages); kaystrios, now caister; rhesos, now rhee; karesos, now car dike; grenikos, now granta; skamandros, now cam; simoeis, now great ouse; satnioeis, now little ouse; tenedos, isle of thanet (tanatus in ancient latin); lecton, now lexden; chryse, now grays, cray and crayford; cilla, now chilham; "silver bow", now the bow and silvertown; ilion, now ely.

Question: Before qualifying something as crackpot, did you read Mr Wilkens book and if not: do you consider disqualifying any idea without examining it thoroughly scientific?

RB —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.123.163.102 (talk • contribs).

As to the substance of your comment, if Wilkens argues those etymologies prove that Troy was in England, there's no reason to read his book. The etymologies are absurd. In return, let me ask you if you've read Latacz's Troy and Homer, or any other work by a classicst or archaeologist discussing the excavations at Troy? --Akhilleus (talk) 06:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Re: absurd

Thank you for helping me out in Wikipedia ethics for I really wasn't aware. As for your comment, Are the etymologies really absurd? Tiryns doesn't resemble Tirins? Corinthe Corintia? Gonoëssa Gonesse? Orneia Orne, Cleonae Cleon? It,s not just these etymologies although their believability strongly improve by the fact that the locations are grouped. So Schotland for instance does not only have adrasteia (ardrossan), apaesus (paisly) or percote (perth) but also practius(pratis), abydus (abbots deuglie), and arisbe (arbroath) whilst the other cities and or rivers that I mentioned earlier can be found in France (Catalogue of ships). I can go on but to really see the whole picture, and this is what it's all about, you have to read Wilkens. His theory may look absurd but is it really? We are not talking about moving around complete countries or areas but only the travelling of one or two stories and the emigration of place-names as for instance so many names from Europe and Britain to America .Do you lack imagination? Are you stubborn? Elitarian? Excuse me if I'm rude but are these etymologies really so absurd? I will read the works you recommended, to find out about (w)il(i)us(a) and turns made to the north but will you read Wilkens?

Regards, RB 212.123.163.102 18:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Other arguments for Troy not being in the Mediterranean
Coming back to your first comment, Wilkens gives a lot of arguments other than etymologies, for instance why Hissarlik should be disqualified as being the location of Troy. Hissarlik and the adjacent plain do not fit the descriptions in the 'Iliad' as Hissarlik was a village the size of a stadium while Homer called it a 'big city' with a garrison of 50,000 warriors (Iliad, VII, 562). Schliemann thought that there could not have been more than 5000 inhabitants. It is hard to believe that the siege of such a small place by a big army would last ten years even with the existance of a lower town. Also the plain to the north of Hissarlik is far too small for such warfare. The distance from the hill to the coast is now six kilometres, and it was even less in Homer's time as most of the bay has silted up since then. In other words: there was a bay where the battlefield is supposed to have been! There was no room for the quarters of some 100.000 warriors which was approximately the size of the Achaean army according to the 'Catalogue of ships' in book II of the Iliad. Homer often speaks of the 'Wide camp of the Achaeans', and a military camp for so many people must be huge, covering many square miles. Another thing that doesn't fit is the mentioning of eight rivers which flooded the Achaean camp after the war. Near Hissarlik there are but two: Kara Menderes and Dümrek Su. The bay of Hissarlik is also way too small to hold a fleet of 1186 ships.

And than there are lots of arguments why the Iliad and Odysseia most probably did not take place in the Mediterranean; Many things don't fit the geography of the Mediterranean.

1 Geograpy in Homer: Egypt is not on the way from Troy in Turkey to Sparta in Greece, the narrow straits of the dardanelles don't fit the description 'vast and boundless', Ithaca is not situated on the way from Crete to Sidon in the Lebanon, Agamemnon wouldn't fit the description 'wide-ruling' monarch if he were only the king of the north-eastern corner of the Peloponnese etc. etc. (Wilkens gives many more examples of anomalies).

2 The word 'Okeanos': The Greeks never used their word for ocean, 'okeanos' to designate the Mediterranean, but only the words pontos, pelagos and thalassa. For the ancient greeks ocean meant exclusively 'the river that surrounds the world' outside the mediterranean basin and the known world. The ocean 'comes back on itself' (XVII,399 and 20,65) implying that it is subject to tides. There can be no doubt, because the word used, 'apsorro-os' means 'flowing back'or 'ebbing', the movement after high tide. This word, which is also used for someone going back to Ilium (VII,413) as well as other indications led the Greek geographer Strabo to note that 'Homer was not ignorant about the ebb and flow of Okeanos' and he concluded that several events described by the poet must therefore have taken place in the Atlantic Ocean.

3 Syria, Egypt, Cyprus, Lesbos, Crete, Rhodos and Hellas, all names appearing in Homer, were not! known by those names in his time as they were called respectively Aram, Kemi, Alashia, Issa, Kaphtor, Ophiusa and Pelasgia. And how could Homer mention the Dorians and Phrygians as they arrived in Greece and Turkey long after his time?

212.123.163.102 19:13, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Dorians and Phrygians
The Iliad describes part of the Trojan War which took place in the late Bronze Age, around 1200 BC. There were no Dorians or Phrygians at that time. There are more major inconsistencies than just the Phrygians and Dorians:

The land that we now call Egypt was never named so by the Pharaohs but Misr, Al-Khem or Kemi. The biblical name is Mitsrayim. The first historian who called the land of the Pharaohs by the name Egypt was Herodotus, who visited the pyramids in the 5th century BC. When Alexander the Great turned the country into a Greek colony in 332 BC, its official name became Egypt.

Greeks versus Hittites? How to explain than that the Trojans and Achaeans (often translated "Greeks" but never called so by Homer) shared the same language and religion even to the extend that the Gods had taken sides between the warrying parties? In north- west Turkey the language was Luvian and the religion that of the Hittites. Are you now going to explain that Homer was a liar or did not know what he was talking about?

As to the word Okeanos; you're right that this doesn't apply to Iliad as much as to Odysseia. About exaggeration; Why, if it's all or mostly fantasy and myth would Homer so abundantly describe every region, city and so many people so lively and with all characteristics? To compare with Tolkien would be a mistake because Homer mentions actual cities and regions whilst Tolkien most certainly does not. 212.123.163.102 11:39, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Another realm
Thank you for your comment. This is all very well but to call most of Homer's lines poetry, mystification and to state that in some or many cases he didn't know what he was talking about because he was writing about things that happened hundreds of years ago seems somewhat defensive and brought up to explain all the anomalies in especially geography and logic. (Did Homer really not know that it takes 24 hours to sail from Argos to Ithaca in stead of a month? This fact doesn't change in 450 years). Why then is there still such an industrious search and struggle to make Hissarlik fit the story? What's the point claiming there was a large lower town with room for 50,000 if on the other hand the whole story is said to be exaggerated? The vast amount of scholarship that you mention might be based on and made to fit the Hissarlik story.

There is one point I still want to make. All the geographic inconsistencies in Homer, and there are many, (which you claim can be explained, by stating that Iliad is Poetry and not History) suddenly do seem to wonderfully fit another realm: The Atlantic! Really!

My experience is that if you read the work of Wilkens with an open mind, as if all factual ,a complete reality starts to unfold in which all inconsistencies of Homer in the Mediterranean suddenly appear to fit in the Atlantic setting. It's really majestic! Poetry in motion towards History? Maybe some conclusions have been jumped to too quickly, but this doesn't diminish the overall plausability (and beauty) which is omni-important!; Don't throw away the child with the bathing-water! Maybe to you a good laugh or else you can call it Poetry. Or maybe it's time for another view.

If you want to examine Wilkens' ideas: http://www.troy-in-england.co.uk —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.123.163.102 (talk • contribs).

From Argos to Ithaca Agamennon somewhere recounts that it took him a full month to sail from his kingdom Argos to Ithaca. (This trip was made before the war to talk to Odysseus to encourage him to join the war). A full month from the northern Peloponnesos to Ithaca. This would fit the Atlantic setting much better, Argos being the northern part of France and Ithaca being Cadiz. (Ithaca described as "Amphialos" i.e. between two seas: the Mediterranean and the Atlantic) 212.123.163.102 05:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds
Consistency might be the hobgoblin of little minds in everyday life but certainly not in science. Though Homer's works are definitely works of art we're also dealing here with the science of History.

As a comment on an earlier discussion I read in the Troy discussion section about the Hittite script, mentioning the people of "Ahhijawa" that probably designates "Achaeans" and the mentioning of Wilusa and Taruisa that seem to stand for (W)Ilion and Troy: This is certainly not in conflict with Wilkens's theory, on the contrary; he writes that the Sea Peoples were present in the Mediterranean during most of the second millennium BC trading Cornish! tin shortly after 2000 BC in Crete for the production of bronze and probably in Egypt as early as 2600 BC. "Alaksandus" was king of "Wilusa" around 1280 BC but this cannot be Prince Paris (who was also called Alexander), because he lived a century later and never was king. 212.123.163.102 16:18, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

?
Why did you remove the images from the library of alexandrea page?--Deglr6328 01:09, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Edits to Greek articles by RandyS0725
Hi Akhilleus. New (8 July 2006) contributor User:RandyS0725 made a lot of changes to Greek classical Wikipedia articles: Special:Contributions/RandyS0725 The article on the Moirae especially doesn't seem to hang togther quite after the changes. I, myself, put the original quote by H.J. Rose from his work, Handbook of Greek Mythology into the article, book in hand, and know that what I put is what Rose wrote. "H.J. Rose writes that Nyx ("Night") was also the mother of the Moirae as she was of the Erinyes, in the Orphic tradition." RandyS0725 reworded it and it no longer, I feel, represents what H.J. Rose wrote. There are also other questions in what RandyS0725 wrote in that article. I will change at least that back to what it was. But RandyS0725 has modified lots of Greek mythology articles and I don't have enough internet access to check them. Could you check them when you have time? Bests as ever. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 20:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Akhilleus. Thanks for your kind reply. I am not sure what to do. Reverts are somewhat in order, but I feel the same way as you do. But I unfortunately don't have much time to do it or internet access, more importantly. I reverted out the changes, which were off-base, in the Moirae article because I knew for sure they were off-target, especially about the Rose quotation. Unsure how to proceed. Bests and many thanks. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 12:43, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've been reverting the ones I don't believe; most of the ones I've left look like either genuine minor corrections or Hesiod. But he seems to be gone; I don't think I bit that hard. Septentrionalis 14:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Akhilleus and Paul. Thanks for your kind help and comments. I was a bit unearthed by User:RandyS0725's comments on his page. I would have been better disposed also, if there was a rhyme and reason to it all in the larger sense or commentary. I just know re-wording the H.J. Rose quote was very off-kilter, and removing images and highly developed article text semingly willy-nilly --- that was very untoward. We all want to encourage new Wikipedians. But I hope he learned from this --- just a bit. We all learn. Bests to all. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 15:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC)