User talk:Alatari/Archive 1

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Personal Computer Market Share: 1975-2004
Please do not create articles which simply link to external sites. If the information there is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia then please create an article here. Your article is being persistently deleted under WP:CSD. The Rambling Man 12:55, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks for your message, let me know if I can be of any help to you now or in the future. The Rambling Man 13:05, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Personal computer
Too many lists, and a cleanup tag. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:48, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Possibly. I'd be willing to collaborate to find the best way to make the article good. - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:54, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Verifying some of the items in the article is proving time consuming. Like the one about the girl entering random numbers at the 1st Computer Faire in San Francisco. The lists are long. I'm considering moving them to the timeline of computing (which needs some work) or creating a category of computers and an individual article for each machine with the category"computer tag. Then the entire list would be viewable from the category page.  This seem's like a lot of work... Alatari 23:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Referencing
Hi. Just wanted to tell you that it is better to use the tags when giving url references in articles. Even better, you can use this tool for quickly getting reference formatting: http://tools.wikimedia.de/~magnus/makeref.php

 Ǣ0 ƞS  07:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Here: Intel Corporation.


 * I have already formatted it correctly. Just told you in case you did not know about the ref tags.


 * Cheers.  Ǣ0 ƞS  05:30, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

EVE-Wiki & External Links
Hello and thanks for your comment on my talk page. I do want to state that the following is not meant to belittle your excellent work editing and improving EVE Wiki, I know that both players and developers alike have noticed and appreciate your efforts, as do I.

The reason that I removed the EVE-Wiki link from the EVE Online article was as cited: I believe that it is covered under links normally to be avoided with the following line: "Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors." You stated on my talk page that EVE Wiki had been going for two years, EVE itself has been live for over 4 years, thus EVE Wiki has only existed for half of the time, I don't believe that this can be considered to be a "substantial history of stability", particuarly for a topic that evolves and changes as EVE does.
 * None of the sites listed in the Open Directory or the EveO Fan Site list are older than 4 years. You have to compare stability with the other websites available.   2 years of continuous up time is very significant... Alatari 19:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That is the very reason why sites other than the Open Directory Project (which is standard practice for articles on wikipedia with External Links sections, see WP:EL for reasons) Richard Slater (Talk) 21:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

You also stated that EVE Wiki has 5 editors, I can not understand how this can be considered substantial, based upon the player base of EVE (over 200,000 accounts - given that many have multiple accounts we could call that 100,000 active players) 5 editors represents 0.005% of EVE players contribute to EVE Wiki.


 * There are 10 people who have system administrator status who can delete and move articles and block users. There are 2100 contributors.  You are invited to create an account and become and editor and contributor Alatari 19:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Discrepancy between the above figures and the figures you provided on my talk page. Richard Slater (Talk) 21:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The discrepancy is from my lack of knowledge. My first numbers were a low estimate.  I used my admin status to since view total membership numbers and discussed this matter with PreTender the main sysop.  Alatari 14:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

There is a huge amount of discussion about including other wikis in External Links sections, for example a suggested policy was turned down and the current WP:EL talk page contains a discussion on the topic.

The primary concern is the lack of control over External Wikis, predominantly the often POV view that appears in Wikis with very few editors.
 * There is no control over any of the other fan sites. Some of those sites have unknown contributors and an unknown life expectancy.  Many have commercial interests as there major purpose yet they are listed in the Open Directory and the Eve Onlone fan site lists.  There is a great abundance of inaccuracies and old patch data on many of those sites yet people can get to them through Wikipedia Eve Online article...Alatari 19:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree there are many issues with fan sites, that is the nature of fan sites (and for that matter official sites) they are often not kept current, however that does not justify EVE-Wiki's "special treatment" to be included over other sites, for example BattleClinic, Grismar, EVE-Central and EVE-Links not all of them are included in DMOZ or the fansite listings however by allowing one site on this list it implicitly gives permission for everyone to be included.
 * Eve-Wiki.net is already given external links in several other Wikipedia articles and has been linked since 2006. See Caldari State (EVE Online) Alatari 14:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I was not aware of that, I am wary of using other pages of justification for a particular convention or application of guidelines particuarly for pages that are accessed less frequently, and subsequently have fiewer editors. If I was aware of EVE-Wiki being used in other External Links I would have removed them for the same reasons I removed the link from EVE Online. Richard Slater (Talk) 19:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The reason Wikipedia prefers third party directories such as fan site listings or DMOZ is they impose their own requirements on the content and nature of the site, Wikipedia does not and can not provide this kind of approval process, I would ask you to please continue use the process for DMOZ and CCPs fan site listing rather than attempting to short circuit it through Wikipedia. Richard Slater (Talk) 21:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

In addition to these concerns if editors lose interest in a project they can become vulnerable to spam and "vandalisation".
 * That is a good point. I worry about some of the single or few contributor sites like Battle Clinic or Grismar.net going belly up, but if you worry about these things little will get accomplished.  And even though Grismar could have a heart attack and his site disappear tomorrow it is still listed. Alatari 19:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * BattleClinic and Grismar are not included as external links in the article. I myself am a contributor to EVEMon and BattleClinic, however I am also a contributor to Wikipedia as such I must follow the polices and recommendations for my conduct as I have a conflict of interest. Richard Slater (Talk) 21:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * EVEMon and Battleclinic are for-profit websites. We should have a third and fourth opinion represented on this dispute.  I've contacted the editor User:Piotrus who originally linked Eve-Wiki.net to several articles on Wikipedia without anyone raising a concern. Alatari 14:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * EVEMon is an open source product hosted by BattleClinic, not a website in itself, as far as I am aware neither EVEMon nor BattleClinic generate revenue other than from donations and from affiliate links (one of which I see is included on every EVE Wiki page), I am unsure as to why you feel that EVE Wiki deserves mention over BattleClinic or EVEMon for this reason? BattleClinic was removed from EL here . Richard Slater (Talk) 19:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I also note that many pages on EVE Wiki do not reference their sources, whilst I understand that much of the information there is accurate to the best of the abilities of the authors, however there is no way for players to verify this information by their own means, the ability to do so is part a key policy of Wikipedia.


 * That is also a good point. Almost all the ship and other NPC information is taken straight from the Eve Online website and from show info within the game itself and any player CAN verify the information by opening their client and using the resources provided. The only real referencing that is problematic is the ones about player corps and alliances. Alatari 19:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * this is true, however a new player or an outsider may be able to do this, due to not having an account, not knowing where the information comes from, I would strongly suggest that you implement some mechanism for adding references, even if this is only in the form of a template at the bottom of the page that explains how to verify this information, as it stands the information on much of EVE Wiki is unverifiable as it is neither referenced directly nor is the reader given instructions or mechanisms for researching itself. Richard Slater (Talk) 21:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Very good suggestion. You have good ideas. Create an account and help us better our site. Your contributions would be greatly appreciated. I will look into creating the template. Alatari 14:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I am starting to use EVE-Wiki more often, I need to take a proper look at it and see where I could help, I am already involved in several EVE Related projects and I am reluctant to add another, I am tempted though. Richard Slater (Talk) 19:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

As I see it there are several paths available to us from here:
 * we can continue this conversation here (I will be watching your talk page)
 * we can continue this conversation on the EVE Online Talk Page
 * you may revert your own revert
 * another editor (or myself) will remove the link at some date in the future Richard Slater (Talk) 16:36, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * We are in the process of getting our site listed on the Open Directory and on the Eve Online Fan site lists. Once that is accomplished then adding our link separately will be a mute point. Alatari 19:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Again I would ask you to remove the link from the EVE Online article and continue to use the process provided by CCP and DMOZ, both of which I would support your application in any way I can. However from what you have said above may be construed as spam, something neither of us want.


 * What support are you offering? By getting our site listed on CCP's fansite list and the Open Directory Listing I was hoping to settle this dispute quickly but using the term Spam.. spammer has some very negative connotations. Eve-Wiki.net gets no income from clickthroughs to the website so having it linked to the Wikipedia article serves no financial benefit and hence 'spam' doesn't come into play. Alatari 14:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Every EVE Wiki page has a banner on it, this banner links through to eve-online.com with an affiliate ID once a user has clicked through and subsequently creates an EVE account, the owner of the affiliate account gets paid $7, I have been using the affiliate scheme to help finance my own projects for several years. LinkSpam is a term used on Wikipedia to denote links that are added not to improve the article but to direct traffic towards the linked site, I do not consider EVE Wiki spam as I believe you have added it in good faith, however other editors particuarly those who do not use EVE Wiki or play EVE may misinterpret what you said. Richard Slater (Talk) 19:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know how much revenue the banner at the top of Eve-Wiki provides. It is my opinion the best way to build up information about Eve Online is through the Wikimedia and this is why I want Eve-Wiki to be externally linked.  It has been 6 days now and no answers from the DMOZ or CCP submissions people.  Alatari 05:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Be patient, perhaps they are monitoring EVE Wiki and assessing it by their own criteria, you may know that EVE Wiki meets the criteria that DMOZ and CCP hold to the websites, or being August and all maybe lots of people are on holiday. -- Richard Slater  (About) / (Talk) 17:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Eve-Wiki.net has been linked in many other Wikipedia articles since 2006 and I have done nothing new.  Eve-Wiki.net has many hundreds of pages about Eve Online which we all contributed without any financial gain.  None of that information can be found on Wikipedia and it was something I considered and rejected for Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia not to be burdened with thousands of new pages about a fictional environment. I went through the Open Directory links and found sites that haven't even been updated since 2006.  The Open Directory mechanism isn't the defunct external link mechanism for Wikipedia.  This is the first article of the hundreds I've peered over using the method.  Almost all link directly to other websites.  Alatari 14:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * DMOZ has its own criteria for inclusion and Wikipedia recognises this by encouraging its use through templates and policies, this is a relatively new thing as such other articles have not been changed and adapted to conform to the new guidelines. Richard Slater (Talk) 19:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Is it intended to have Wookiepedia go through this same process? Alatari 17:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * From looking at Wookiepedia and the talk pages on Star Wars it appears it has never been discussed in depth, however looking at the recent changes on Wookiepedia it appears to have over 2000 edits a day; of the first two pages of Google the only wikis linked are Wookiepedia, Wikipedia and "Star Wars Fanon" (whatever that is) this would suggest Wookiepedia is the predominant Wiki on Star Wars; Wookiepedia uses citations and references well, it appears that most of what can be sourced is sourced. Richard Slater (Talk) 18:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It doesn't seem any Eve O fansite could achieve that level of edit and involvement unless CCP goes hollywood and produces 6 box office smash movies. Below you support my point in showing that we are the first to be hit when Google searched as is Wookieepedia above.   Here is our usage statistics  it would be nice to compare those to Battleclininc and Grismar's site Alatari 05:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * As I also mentioned below, because it is the first hit in Google does not mean that it is better than those below it, all it means is it is linked and links to high ranked pages, for example sites that use Wikipedia content could be affecting the page rank of EVE-Wiki so the location with the results is not a trustworthy metric. -- Richard Slater  (About) / (Talk) 17:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your considered and polite replies Richard Slater (Talk) 21:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Slater asked me to come and comment on this. To create a valid opinion, I first looked to Star Wars, and sure enough, Wookiepedia is an External Link. Of course, one might say, this is an exception; Wookiepedia is so notable it has its own article! But on the other hand, is this any different? EVE Online is a big universe, and like Star Wars, the official site doesn't cover all of the information. My main worries about including an EVE Wiki as an external link are:
 * Does the wiki have enough participation? Or is it a ghost town?
 * There are 10 to 40 changes or submissions made a day currently. Alatari 17:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I did some research on this matter and from recent changes on EVE Wiki here are the contributors (most with multiple contributions in one day) for the last week:
 * 22 August 2007: Pirokobo, Runia, Zxc-vbn
 * 21 August 2007: Zxc-vbn, Pirokobo, Kadven, Jellygoop, Uni Zueto
 * 20 August 2007: Uni Zueto, Runia, Pesi, ReiXor
 * 19 August 2007: Uni Zueto, ReiXor, Runia, Malice, Theo Samaritan, Dee Junkey
 * 18 August 2007: Pesi, Uni Zueto, Anubis, JobieThickBurger, OD
 * 17 August 2007: Runia, ReiXor
 * 16 August 2007: Runia, Yokan
 * Richard Slater (Talk) 18:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes about 10 to 40 edits a day. None of the wiki's you found below even match that level of submissions. If Grismar would lax his contributor restrictions it's possible his site would dominate. Although the Wikka style of hypertext link DB is unpopular compared to Wikimedia's style Alatari 05:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Are there other EVE wikis that are competing with it? Is it the best one to link?
 * Only other Wiki I know of is a Japanese version.  Alatari 17:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Google Search returns the following EVE Online Wikis for "eve wiki":
 * 
 * ours which has dedicated server. Alatari 05:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 
 * very trusted site recommended in the help channels. Should be listed. Alatari 05:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 
 * low edits think it's Eve-Wiki.net's old home. Will ask PreTender about this. Alatari 05:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 
 * last_edited: 24 Aug 2006, 16:03 -0-500 (363 days ago)
 * 
 * focused on history or politics in Eve. Overlaps with us. Contacted about merger? Listing likely. Alatari 05:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 
 * Eve dictionary. 1 contributer in 30 days. Overlaps with Eve-Wiki. Alatari 05:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 
 * The EVE Development Network was founded by AndrewGunn to create a place for all Developers of 3rd party EVE applications to gather, discuss problems and share knowledge. Alatari 05:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Japanese Eve Wiki excellent site. Should be linked.  Alatari 05:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This is not a competition between the different Wikis, I listed them purely to point out that EVE Wiki is not the only Wiki, rate of contributions does not signify a good Wiki, a low rate may indicate a Wiki that needs little improvement, or that it is a ghost town. -- Richard Slater  (About) / (Talk) 17:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * EVE Wiki is the first on google, however the URL may have a lot to do with this so the order of the results should not be misinterpreted. Why should any the above links be included in the article? Richard Slater (Talk) 18:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Is the content there of sufficient detail that it cannot be included on Wikipedia without being dubbed Fancruft?
 * That is a matter of opinion. If we included all the missions, corporation and NPC information from Eve-Wiki on Wikipedia we would be adding 900+ new pages.  But many of the mission pages especially the COSMOS information gets used by players to help them complete the missions.  Alatari 17:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I do believe linking a wiki is reasonable, as demonstrated on Star Wars, but conditions must be met before a wiki can be linked. —Dark•S hik ari [T] 19:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What conditions? We are perfectly willing to improve our site and accept criticism. Alatari 17:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * My main concern as I mentioned above is Verifiability very little of the content on EVE Wiki cites it sources, whilst a large proportion of the material is freely available and can be verified by experienced players either from the Client, E-O.com or 3rd Party websites (with references) to a non-player or new player this information may be inaccessible or not obvious enough for a user to verify themselves. The terms of verifiability need not be a strict as Wikipedia as some original content is expected and probably encouraged. Richard Slater (Talk) 18:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Per WP:RS (or its pre-gutted version), wikis an on average not reliable (as they can be changed by anybody, just as Wikipedia articles). That said, unless the information is controversial, I wouldn't pay much attention to that, and wouldn't remove an eve-wiki.net reference. PS. Richard makes good point about eve wiki not citing sources.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Piotrus, in this instance EVE-Wiki is being linked in the External Links section of the EVE Online article, as it stands this is the only direct link to a EVE Fan site, the other two links link to DMOZ and CCP's Fan Site listing. It is my belief that it is only being linked on Wikipedia because it is not linked on either of the above two sites, I do not see why EVE-Wiki should be linked in External Links over Grismar's Wiki, EVE-Info, EVE-Agents or BattleClinic - I don't think any of these sites should be linked directly but through DMOZ as per WP:EL:


 * Links normally to be avoided
 * "12. Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors."


 * Advertising and conflicts of interest
 * "You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked. If the link is to a relevant and informative site that should otherwise be included, please consider mentioning it on the talk page and let neutral and independent Wikipedia editors decide whether to add it. This is in line with the conflict of interest guidelines."


 * '''Links to be considered
 * "Long lists of links are not appropriate: Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links. If you find a long list of links in an article, you can tag the 'External links' section with the linkfarm template. Where editors have not reached consensus on an appropriate list of links, a link to a well chosen web directory category could be used until such consensus can be reached. The Open Directory Project is often a neutral candidate, and may be added using the dmoz template." -- Richard Slater  (About) / (Talk) 17:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree we need to improve referencing but it is confounding us. Today I entered mission details by doing the mission and dragging all the logs, copying the standings boosts from the character sheet and copying the details from the journal.  How to reference this?  Refer the page to the Eve O client download at CCP? Refer it to the character entry on the Wiki?  Linking to other websites is circular linking when the original source is the game client and many times we have found inaccuracies in other websites information.  Especially after each patch.  Citing CCP's own website has been problematic; we have even been finding CCP's site full of inaccuracies because the patches change the ingame database while the CCP chronicles don't keep pace. The only thing I can think of is to create a detailed article on how to write up a mission article and reference that article. Alatari 05:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)