User talk:AlisterMcG/sandbox

Hey! I'm doing a peer review for you, so have some thoughts below. Okay first, what you did so far is pretty awesome I don't see any issue with it. As for the page itself there are definitely more things you could update, but obviously don't feel like you have to touch on everything here. First off, there's a LOT of cultures that have "3rd gender" categories that existed long before white people did their whole colonizing thing and I think it would be cool to mention more of those in the history section. Specifically, I think it would be great to start off that section with third genders from non white cultures that aren't related to cults, because that gives a very negative connotation right off that bat that is not universal in other cultures. Granted, not all of third genders are necessarily androgynous, but since the history section is already discussing third genders I think it is relevant to discuss in more detail. I don't have any wikipedia quality sources for you but here are some third gender identities you could look into which might be worth researching. In Jewish culture there's Tumtum: One who is Jewish and whose gender is hidden or private, and Androgynos: One who is Jewish and intersex or bigender. This link might be a good starting point for you. In Chinese culture there's a few: Genderhu, Yinyang ren, and Fengender. There's not a lot of info I could find on those apart from pride flags someone made on deviant art, but worth a look! The Bugis society, a community in southern Indonesia,recognizes 5 genders and the androgynous one is called Bissu. There's a white people article about it here, which should give some jumping off points to research. In Hawaiian culture there's the Mahu, and there's this really great documentary on youtube that made me cry but also is super interesting. Muxe is a term form nonbinary from MesoAmerica (pre colombus), and there's another white people discovering the gender binary is fake article here. In Italy, there's the femminiello, there's some artwork and a small description here. In India, there's the Hijra, which is briefly mentioned already but could use some expansion. There's lots of good stuff on this easily accessible, and I have a memoir written by a Hijra if you're interested in borrowing it! In Samoan culture there's the Fa’afafine (also referred to by a few other names) and there's a non-profit that does some recognition and activism work around this with a website that may be useful. There's also the two spirit, and many others, in some Native American cultures and I have a few pamphlets from their official preservation society I'll try and find for you.

In the symbols section, it would be super cool to include some modern ones, such as the pride flags for all the gender identities outlined in the introduction, and the gender symbol that combines the male and female ones (the first image in this article ).

Under the BEM section, I would change the phrase "androgynous men and women" to "androgynous people" or "androgynous individuals"

The gender expression section is pretty wild. Not sure where the current definition of genderqueer came from but it is definitely not in line with the current vernacular. I think it would be great to pull down the gender identities included in the intro paragraph and discuss the definitions of each and then distinguish the differences between them and androgyny. Also, I did actually find Androgyne used as a gender identity occasionally, it's mentioned in this video here ( 1:26-2:05) and does actually have a pride flag on tumblr.

I also think that the discussion of sexual orientation needs to be its own section, otherwise you run the risk of conflating gender identity and sexual orientation. Gynephilia and androphilia are super out of the vernacular these days and have pretty overtly transphobic connotations at this point so it's probably worth mentioning some different labels that are used. First off, bisexual is absolutely valid for androgynous folks to use under the current definition. I'd also mention pansexual and queer as "more inclusive" options. Lesbian and gay are still used by many androgynous folks, especially those who are not androgynous in gender identity. Additionally, sapphic, achillean, and pluralian are used by a lot a folks as less gendered sexual alignments.

The alternatives section is very odd, and could definitely use more explanation. I also think the title of that section is just weird and uninformative though I don't have a better idea at the moment.

Ekaufman1998 (talk) 22:28, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Peer Review
- “it is generally supported that androgyny represents a blending of traits associated with both masculinity and femininity.” - what source are you getting this from? - You can link link PAQ to the wiki it has. It is a short wiki but could help some people - The information you have is very well written, has great sources, and fits the article really well. I am not sure how much she wants us to put into the wiki page but some interesting topics you could add on there are intersex vs androgynous or maybe talking about specific individual traits.(just throwing some ideas out their in case u need to add more but other than that, awesome job!) - Also I definitely agree with whoever reviewed this before me. Adding more to history and adding a sexual orientation section would make the page more clear and add necessary information that is not there yet. Lwm1715 (talk) 17:50, 5 November 2019 (UTC)lwm1715