User talk:Allenhjoyner


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Carry Back
Please take a look at the Carry Back article. It's now the second longest article on a 20th century racehorse (after Secretariat). Could do with some images though.  Tigerboy1966  20:47, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Tigerboy 1966. You did a great job in expanding on the story I started about Carry Back on WIKI. CB was the horse who made me a Racing fan for life back when I was a kid. I was lucky enough to be at Belmont and Aqueduct to see CB and Kelso in some of those races as I was raised in Queens, NY. I now live in Saratoga Springs, NY, home to the oldest track in the U.S. I believe you are from "across the pond", correct?

PS: Please forgive my computer illiteracy. It took me an hour to figure out how to respond to your request. :)

Check out these videos of the 1961 Kentucky Derby and 1961 Preakness:.

http://www.kentuckyderby.com/history/year/1961

http://kauaidreamvacation.com/videos/video/TpaKHcAcRFw/Preakness-1960s-Newsreels.html  (1960-67 Preaknesses)


 * Thanks for the videos. I had seen the Derby but not the Preakness.

I am British but I actually prefer writing about American racing because 1) I learn something new and 2) the sources for horses pre-1990 are much richer and easier to find on google. I think the most remarkable thing about Carry Back's Arc bid was that it happened at all. Tom Rolfe had a crack at the race in 1965, but after that top-class American challenges sort of dried up. Not many Jack Prices around these days. Somewhere down the line I'll try an article on Carry Back's grandson Bob Back. He defeated Pebbles at Royal Ascot and sired the St Leger winner Bob's Return. Bob Back and Bob's Return were both dark brown horses, which probably came from Carry Back.

I've now nominated the article for the Did You Know category, so hopefully we should see Carry Back on the front page in a few days time.

Best wishes.  Tigerboy1966  09:04, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks again Tigerboy. I appreciate your compassion for thoroughbred racing. I was shocked to see the job you did on Carry Back's story. It was so comprehensive. Most of what I wrote was from memory, my books and a few websites I found. And 50 years can dull some memory! It was such a "rags to riches" story. The only other horse I made contributions to on WIKI was Kelso. Now there's a great topic for you to expand on. Let's face it, no other horse will ever do what he did...win five HOTY's in a row. I wasn't his biggest fan at first as he was CB's adversary, but I grew to appreciate him after CB retired. I'll never forget being at the 1964 Aqueduct Stakes when he beat Gun Bow, who he was trashed by weeks earlier. Rumor had it Kelso at 7 was through. But he proved the experts wrong. The crowd that day was one of the loudest I ever heard. Right up there with Secretariat's Belmont, which I was also fortunate to see live. Anyway old Kelso closed out that year with the still world record on dirt for 2 miles of 3:19.1 and a 2:23.4 1 1/2 mile Washing DC Int'l on grass, and his final HOTY. And the list of horses he beat over the 6 years. It's safe to say he beat more good horses than any other thoroughbred. And then there's Hall of Fame trainer Allen Jerkens. The Chief. The "Giant Killer". Beat all the greats since Kelso. Buckpasser, Secretariat (twice with two different horses), Skip Away...the list goes on and on. He just won another stakes this past Saturday with a 39-1 shot beating the 1/4 favorite. At 83 years young, still getting to the winners circle.

Best of luck to you, Tigerboy. And "may the horse be with you"!

Allen Joyner

PS: One last thing. You may be interested in a great reference book I use constantly. It's issued by the The Daily Racing Form, titled "CHAMPIONS...The Lives, Times and Past Performances of the 20TH Century's Greatest Thoroughbreds" It covers every champion horse from 1894 to 2010 in it's latest edition. The PP's are especially wonderful, as you can trace the horse's every race. I highly recommend this terrific book. And you can sure win a lot of arguments!

http://store.drf.com/acb/stores/1/CHAMPIONS_The_Lives_The_Time_P20439.cfm?UserID=68412457&ACBSessionID=D6BDDEAAC9761CD34E8C

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/champions-daily-racing-form-press-staff/1007341537


 * The problem with Kelso is that with my editing style it would end up 60-70kb long (which is too long). One fact that I stumbled upon when researching American Horse of the Year was that Kelso came within one vote of a sixth award in 1965. I might have a go at Beau Purple next: I had actually never heard of the horse until I started on Carry Back, but he was obviously exceptional on his day. Roman Brother is another horse of that era that I've had in my sights for a while.


 * Very impressed that you saw so many greats "in the flesh". The best horse I ever saw "live" was Dayjur at my local course, Haydock Park; he was probably the best European sprinter of the last fifty years, although he came up agonisingly short in the Breeders' Cup Sprint.


 * The key to wikipedia is getting the hang of using references; once you master that, you're away. In the meantime you would be very welcome to join up at WikiProject Horse racing.  Tigerboy1966  20:58, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Roman Brother
I've made a start on Roman Brother. It would be helpful if you could keep an eye on it and any of my other American articles and correct any Britticisms like favourite or "course" instead of "track"etc. Articles on American topics should use American English. Do you think "fall" would be better than "autumn"?  Tigerboy1966  21:39, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Tiger....I don't see a problem with either of those terms. We use both here in the States. I prefer autumn, but fall is used more commonly in conversation.

I would however use "National Thoroughbred Hall of Fame" rather than "American Hall of Fame" in your articles.

I looked over what has been written so far for Roman Brother. In the Two Year Old section: "Despite losing his undefeated record when beaten by Sophia's Boy and Hurry to Market at Garden State Park..." This is only partly true. According to my trusty aforementioned "Champions" reference book, RB finished second to Hurry To Market in both Garden State racetrack starts on November 1 and November 9, 1963. Don't know where Sophia's Boy came from.

As I stated earlier, he was a tough little horse, but maybe just shy of being a great one. He has yet to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. He finished his career of 42 starts with 16-10-5 record and $943,473 in earnings. If you need any more info concerning his PP's, etc., do not hesitate to ask.

Thanks: the newspaper sources were in disagreement over who inflicted RB's first defeat. Very surprised when I checked the Hall of Fame website and found RB wasn't there.

To save space our usual practice is to write replies on the other person's talkpage. I often forget. I only found the races I mentioned in the article for RB as a 2-y-o. Were there any more?  Tigerboy1966  16:55, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Dates and locations of RB's first 3 wins would be very welcome. Just working on his 3yo season. You have to admire the toughness of horses back then: the Kentucky Derby was RB's ninth race of the season. The first three in this year's Derby had raced a combined total of seven times between them in 2012.

Wikitip of the day. Always sign your comments. You do this by typing four tildes, like this ~. This will be converted into a signature  Tigerboy1966   21:34, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

I've added your information on RB's early races to the article. I just need to develop the last section on his two races in 1966 and see if I can find some info on his retirement and life after racing. Given the fact that his owner was hardly short of cash, I hope he looked after the old boy. I will probably have lots more questions for you on other articles in future.

The obsession with precocious speed is also a problem over here in Europe, but it's not as bad, probably because our most prestigious races (Epsom Derby, Arc, King George) are over a mile and a half. Some of our smarter breeders with an eye on these races are now importing stamina-rich bloodstock from Germany to balance out the endless Northern Dancer/Mr. Prospector inbreeding.  Tigerboy1966  22:39, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Breaking news: Carry Back is on the Did you know...? section of the Wikipedia Main Page today!  Tigerboy1966  16:07, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Wise Dan
Thanks for your comment. I was just surprised that no-one had created the article before. The Racing Post in the UK has been praising him to the skies all year. Turf horses don't tend to win "Horse of the Year" in the US but I can't see how they can NOT give the award to Wise Dan this year. The fact that he has also won on dirt and synthetic should help. As a gelding there's a good chance that we'll see him for a couple more years- it would be amazing if he could be tempted over for a race in Europe, but that's probably too much to hope for.  Tigerboy1966  00:48, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Kelly Kip
I'll certainly take a look at him. I have just watched the youtube clip and he looked like he had another 2/5 in him, and in a claimer! Interesting pedigree as well- no sign of Northern Dancer or Mr P, but a double dose of Intentionally (that's about as Florida as it gets!). The thing about American sprinters is that they compete in their own bubble, so they don't get much in the way of international recognition unless they win the BC Sprint. I have had arguments with people who claim that the Australians have the best sprinters in the world: I say no, they have the best turf sprinters in the world, there is a difference.  Tigerboy1966  17:29, 29 November 2012 (UTC)


 * A coincidence. I have been writing articles on the early winners of the Epsom Oaks and just finished Medora who won the race back in 1814. I then decided to make a start on Kelly Kip (still a very early draft: in one of my sandboxes) and took a look at his pedigree. It turns out that his tail-female line (mother to mother to mother etc) traces all the way back to... Medora. Sometimes, horse racing is a very small world.  Tigerboy1966   20:54, 5 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Finished! There are a few gaps, but it's a pretty solid article. The thing is that if I am writing about a European sprinter and read that they won the July Cup, Temple Stakes and King George Stakes, I know exactly where and when the races occurred: if I read that an American sprinter won the Vosburgh Stakes, Laurel Dash and Bold Ruler Stakes I have to dig through the sources before I know where I am. Best wishes: I would rather be in Florida than in cold, wet, snowy England right now.  Tigerboy1966  19:18, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Must try to remember that Sarasota is in Florida, Saratoga is in NY. When I write about American horses I always try to think about how they would have gone in Europe. I don't know if Kelly Kip would have liked the soft turf over here, but I think he would have been very well served by the fact that a lot of our top sprints are over FIVE furlongs/ 1000 metres: I can just imagine him storming home in a Nunthorpe Stakes or a Prix de l'Abbaye. As I'm starting to get my head around the American sprint scene I am planning to have a go at some other horses in the same category. Give me a shout if you have any suggestions.  Tigerboy1966  17:16, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Xtra Heat and Mongo
I'd noticed the Xtra Heat article and thought it was a bit odd as she was much more notable as a runner than a breeder. The interesting thing is that she is one of few out-and-out sprinters to win an Eclipse award outside her category. Mongo looks like my kind of horse, and, like Xtra Heat he has a distinctive name which make him easy to search. I've already made a start, adding some details on his breeding and his career-defining win at Laurel.  Tigerboy1966  21:01, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Your recent edits
Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126; ) at the end of your comment. You could also click on the signature button or  located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when they said it. Thank you. --SineBot (talk) 00:20, 20 December 2012 (UTC)