User talk:Almavivatmm

Speedy deletion nomination of Opera Lively


A tag has been placed on Opera Lively, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page seems to be unambiguous advertising which only promotes a company, product, group, service or person and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become an encyclopedia article. Please read the guidelines on spam and FAQ/Business for more information.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 22:50, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Conflict of interest
Hello Almavivatmm. We welcome your contributions to Wikipedia, but if you are affiliated with some of the people, places or things you have written about in the article Opera Lively, you may have a conflict of interest or close connection to the subject.

All editors are required to comply with Wikipedia's neutral point of view content policy. People who are very close to a subject often have a distorted view of it, which may cause them to inadvertently edit in ways that make the article either too flattering or too disparaging. People with a close connection to a subject are not absolutely prohibited from editing about that subject, but they need to be especially careful about following the reliable sources and writing with as little bias as possible.

If you are very close to a subject, here are some ways you can reduce the risk of problems:


 * Avoid or exercise great caution when editing or creating articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors, as well as projects and products they are involved with.
 * Be cautious about deletion discussions. Everyone is welcome to provide information about independent sources in deletion discussions, but avoid advocating for deletion of articles about your competitors.
 * Avoid linking to the Wikipedia article or website of your organization in other articles (see Spam).
 * Exercise great caution so that you do not accidentally breach Wikipedia's content policies.

Please familiarize yourself with relevant content policies and guidelines, especially those pertaining to neutral point of view, verifiability of information, and autobiographies.

For information on how to contribute to Wikipedia when you have a conflict of interest, please see our frequently asked questions for organizations. Thank you. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 22:54, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Speed Deletion of Opera Lively
This organization is not-for-profit and includes very useful content. It is like an online magazine. If other existing magazines on the topic have pages, why can't this organization have a page? I don't think my entry was biased, it just said what the mission is, what the features are. Please help.
 * As may be, but not every organization or online magazine merits a Wikipedia page. Evidence that this outlet plays a significant role in the opera community, or that the opera community has taken note of this organization, would bolster its notability.  Evidence of coverage in other independent media, or evidence of contributions from major, notable opera journalists, would be required.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:05, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Opera Lively's notability
Evidence that the opera community has taken note of Opera Lively:


 * Maestro James Meena, director and principal conductor of Opera Carolina, a premier professional opera company, has officially designated Opera Lively as media partners for Opera Carolina.
 * As James Meena does not appear in himself to be notable, this credential may not be your best lead.
 * Major opera stars like Anna Netrebko, Juan Diego Flórez, and others (including Natalie Dessay upcoming in April 2012) have granted exclusive interviews to Opera Lively.
 * That seems notable. Citations (links to those interviews) might help.
 * The Metropolitan Opera organization in New York City through its Press Department (Press Director Peter Clark and Press Manager Sam Neuman) has opened its doors to Opera Lively to conduct interviews with its artists at the Met premises (Scheduled: Natalie Dessay, Piotr Beczala, Matthew Polenzani).
 * Companies grant access to journalists, bloggers, etc, of all stripes all the time. Its called free publicity.  That doesn't mean that the journalists so granted, or their organizations, are notable.
 * Ms. Ann Richards, press director at the Royal Opera House / Covent Garden in London is arranging for an interview with maestro Antonio Pappano, principal conductor at the Royal Opera House.
 * Again, free publicity is always welcome.
 * North Carolina Opera (another professional opera company) has published a free ad for Opera Lively in its playbill as a mean of thanking Opera Lively for the support provided to their latest production of Glass' opera Les Enfants Terribles (announcements, interview with the cast, interview with General Director Mr. Eric Mitchko, review of the performance).
 * NCO does not appear in itself to be a major opera company. Such cooperation among local small companies is frequent but not notable.

I have correspondence supporting all the above claims and can forward them to you.
 * Opera educators and chair persons of opera programs in universities like Dr. Marilyn Taylor from the A.J.Fletcher Opera Institute and Dr. Terry Rhodes from the University of North Carolina College of Arts and Sciences Music Department / UNC Opera have expressed gratitude for Opera Lively's coverage of their activities (and the latter organization has also designated Opera Lively as media partners).
 * Gratitude is not necessarily notability.
 * Three organized groups of opera fans with hundreds of members - Triangle Opera Appreciation, Eyes on Opera, and Bravo! have acknowledged Opera Lively in various ways including with links from their websites and list-emailing to their members about Opera Lively.
 * Appreciation is not "independent coverage"
 * Web site Operafocus also has such a link.
 * See above.

Evidence that major opera journalists have contributed to Opera Lively: Terri Knudsen, professional journalist in Oslo, Norway with 12 years of experience covering the theatrical arts, publishes routinely with Opera Lively, as exemplified by her exclusive interviews with major opera stars like Jonas Kaufmann, Iain Paterson, Ferruccio Furlanetto, and Sir Thomas Allen that are currently featured on Opera Lively's Read section.
 * Based on your own description of the Jonas Kaufmann interview (here), Knudsen's interview with Kaufmann appears to have been her own effort as a freelance journalist, which she published on her own website, and granted you permission to publish as well. The "plans to diffuse it in other ways" indicates that Knudsen is shopping the article around to anyone who will publish it.  This hardly comprises "exclusive content".  The same can be said of her interview with Paterson.  Other "exlcusive" interviews consist of as few as four questions -- an interview that could not have occupied more than 10 minutes of the artists' time.

Look around the Internet, you won't find too many venues that have this kind of access to major opera stars (no blogs whatsoever get this kind of treatment, only the major magazines like Opera News, Opera, and Opera Now can get this kind of exclusive interview, and now, Opera Lively as well). Just the fact that these world-famous, first rate stars have been granting exclusive interviews to Opera Lively proves that the opera community has acknowledged Opera Lively as a noteworthy partner.
 * I can't speak to that, as I have not done an exhaustive search of opera websites. However, your point may well be valid.  However, as the editor of the website, your own opinions of it may well be skewed.  You may have every right to be proud of the site's accomplishments, but because of the conflict of interest, you should not be the one to create the article about the site.  If you truly believe Wikipedia needs an article about your site, place a request at Requested articles.

Oh, and by the way, you guys have already deleted Opera Lively's page, I surely hope that you didn't do it "as spam" because this would be outrageous, Opera Lively is a not-for-profit, non-commercial organization, its effort to diffuse the art form can't be seen as spam - at worst, we didn't know exactly what Wikipedia would accept but this is *very* far from being spammers.

Almavivatmm (talk) 13:51, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I have responded to each of your comments above with embedded replies. Good luck.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 14:49, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Response to your points
I respectfully think that you have some incomplete notions of what the "opera community" is. By dismissing maestro Meena, Opera Carolina, and NC Opera as not notable, you may be indicating that you only consider notable the major international repertoire houses like the Met, Covent Garden, La Scala, etc. However, opera happens everywhere. There are 4 million people in the United States who frequent regional opera houses (look it up in Opera America, the umbrella professional organization for US opera companies). Opera Carolina has just finished a run of Madama Butterfly that sold about 10,500 tickets in five shows. This *is* part of the opera community, my friend. It may not be the New York City community, but it is definitely part of the opera community over a reach that spams two states (North and South Carolina). You asked me if the "opera community" had taken notice of Opera Lively. I provided you with evidence that it has, although you may have a different definition in mind for the term "opera community."

Is it really the case that Wikipedia won't think that regional notability is enough for inclusion? There are literally *thousands* of pages on Wikipedia that address regional concerns (such as various pages about local soccer clubs, etc.). If a local minor league soccer team in some small city in South America or England can have a page on Wikipedia, why can't Opera Lively as well, a web site that supports regional opera companies that sell over 10,000 tickets for one of their productions? The opera community is scattered around the world, and regional opera does matter.

On the other hand, being given access to the Metropolitan Opera House to interview a star of the stature of *Natalie Dessay* is definitely not given to any blogger for the sake of "free publicity" as you say. Ms. Dessay hardly needs the publicity that some blogger would give her. She is one of the top five singers in the world. It's not easy to get Covent Garden to agree with an interview with maestro Sir Antonio Pappano either; Covent Garden is notoriously selective with their access. You said you didn't look around for what kind of access other venues have - please do, then. You won't find it, for the simple fact that such requests are often ignored by the Press Departments of the major houses. They have not ignored Opera Lively (I suspect, given the high quality of our content - look at our /learn pages, for instance). What you see in all those blogs and smaller web sites is some sort of personal account of opera experiences and gossip, you won't see interviews with major stars and articles with our level of quality - produced by a staff of 9 people and with some 50 free-lance contributors.

Your point about gratitude and appreciation being different from notability: well taken, but we're working on it. We actually have scheduled meetings with the heads of these academic and professional organizations and are working on obtaining official status as media partners with them as well (in addition to the two that have already granted us this status, namely the UNC-Chapel Hill Department of Music, and Opera Carolina - we have meetings with Piedmont Opera, NC Opera, and the A.J.Fletcher Opera Institute directors/chairpersons scheduled) - so soon I'll hopefully have more for you on the matter of their acknowledgment of us going beyond simple gratitude (and hey, they are also part of the "opera community").

Your point about Ms. Knudsen's Jonas Kaufmann interview is well taken, that's why we did not call it exclusive on the web site (see the difference on the /read pages). There are other interviews that *are* either exclusive or only shared with Operafocus. Iain Paterson's for instance, the one that is on our site (and hers). He spoke for over one hour with Terri, face to face. She is preparing an article for other venues that uses a different set of questions, related to Mr. Paterson's role in the Met's Gotterdammerung. But this part of the interview that is on our site has only been published at Operafocus and Opera Lively, and won't go anywhere else. Ask her, if you doubt me. Some of the other interviews on the site are not shared with Operafocus and are entirely exclusive for Opera Lively (upcoming in a week or so, another one with Rene Barbera, the 2011 winner of Placido Domingo's Operalia in Moscow - some 15 questions, entirely exclusive, for Opera Lively only, not shared with Operafocus or any other venue. Netrebko, Florez, Jessica Cates, Fernanto Portari, Yunah Lee, Timothy McDevitt, Phillipe Pierce, Nicole Rodin, Richard Ollarsaba, all granted entirely exclusive interviews to Opera Lively.

You say that some of these artists replied to four questions. Yes, some are busy and give us little, some are more forthcoming and give us more. Natalie Dessay, Piotr Beczala, and Matthew Polenzani have all agreed to face-to-face, long interviews (coming in April). Many of the other interviews in our site were also face-to-face and long. Juan Diego Florez and Anna Netrebko gave us short interviews, sure. Go try to get them to reply directly to other internet venues and you'll see that most venues will be ignored. By the way, we got a preliminary "yes" from Eva-Maria Westbroek as well, another first rate star.

Maybe once Opera Lively publishes in April the long, exclusive, and face-to-face interviews that are scheduled with first rate Met stars Dessay, Beczala, and Polenzani, you'll take us more seriously. I hope so.

You didn't reply to my question about the modality of deletion. Did you consider us as spammers? Again, there is a world of difference between people who flood the Net with advertising for pills and purses, and a not-for-profit, non-commercial organization bent on promoting an art form and supporting regional cultural organizations, whose only sin was having been poorly informed about your conflict of interest rules. If you flagged us as spammers at Akismet or similar, please undo. We're definitely not spammers. Thank you. Almavivatmm (talk) 18:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Some advice
Hello there. I'm a member of WikiProject Opera and thought I's give you a few pointers. James Meena, probably does qualify for an article, as he has coverage in multiple cities, plus a review in Gramophone Magazine of his Duvernoy/Devienne recording. Note, however, this is a biography of a living person (BLP) and requires inline citations to verify the claims in the article, not simply a list of URLs pasted at the end. You can read more about these policies at WP:BLP. You also have to make sure that you avoid any kind of puffery or unencyclopedic language in the article no "Maestro Meena" or "Mr. Meena", no evaluative adjectives like "premiere", "prominent" etc., and no cherry-picked quotes from reviews. Manual of Style/Words to watch and Manual of Style/Biographies have furthetr guidance on this.

As for Opera Lively, I have five years experience of participating in Articles for deletion discussions here and have rescued quite a few articles that at first glance appeared non-notable. I'm going to be frank with you. This one hasn't got a hope in hell of currently passing the notability requirements, i.e. multiple, significant coverage by entirely independent reliable sources. If you are associated with that site, you really should not be creating an article about it all. If anything, it could be mentioned briefly in the Opera Carolina article and added as an external link there, but not by you. To comply with the Wikipedia's guidelines on conflict of interest, you should suggest it on Talk:Opera Carolina and wait for uninvolved editors to make the decision as to its suitability.

"Spamming" (in the Wikipedia sense) is not dependent on whether or not an organization is non-profit, useful, or worthy. Creating articles to publicize an otherwise non-notable organization or website is still considered spamming here. Incidentally, the article was originally listed for speedy deletion as unambiguous advertising, G11, (It may well have been written like that, I can't see it as it's now deleted). However, it was ultimately deleted for A7 "No explanation of the subject's significance (real person, animal, organization, or web content)". I'll go over to User:Almavivatmm/James Meena later today and see if I can improve it enough for it to be moved into article space. If you need any help or have further questions, just give me a shout on my talkpage. Voceditenore (talk) 08:59, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

To VocediTenore

Hi, I appreciate your help. About James Meena and citations - I did read the part of your guidance files saying that BLPs require citations, but also, in the tutorial for page creation, there was mention that less experienced contributors [i.e., me] could start a page with the basics and just *list* several references (some of them hopefully orgs and independent news sources, which I did) and then more experienced contributors [such as you] might be able to read it and improve it with direct quotes - I confess I don't know very well how to insert quotes - everything that I said about James Meena can be found in the references that I provided. Yes, I think that James Meena has notability. In terms of conflict of interest, I barely know him, I spoke once with him for ten minutes. I'm happy that he seems to think highly of my organization and has designated us as media partners, giving us access to his artists, sure, but that's where it ends in terms of conflict of interest, his organization is totally independent from mine. His opera house is category II in Opera America, therefore a true regional force, and the main reason I'm doing this is that I totally disagree with the initial reviewer of my initial contribution who seems to think that if you're not the Met or La Scala you're not notable. The main point of my organization is to promote regional opera (it's our mission) so I consider quite unfortunate that some people seem to think that the so called "opera community" only exists in places like New York or Milan or London. Yes, I'll continue to try to promote regional opera, and do expect from me other attempts at discovering notable regional houses, conductors, and artists, who haven't deserved a mention in Wikipedia yet. I started with James Meena because he's a close example. I could think of others. Because, see, after this whole episode I was browsing Wikipedia looking for regional and local organizations that do have a page. I found even local small restaurants, for Pete's sake!!! I don't see why a small local restaurant with no prominence whatsoever in any gourmet circles deserves a Wikipedia page, and James Meena who has lead two category II opera companies and was assistant conductor in a category I opera company doesn't deserve a page. Like I said, small soccer clubs and small restaurants have pages!!!

As for Opera Lively, I totally agree with you and by now I regret the fact that naively and without understanding the Wikipedia policies, I started that page about us. Definitely there is conflict of interest. While we do have local (and budding regional) notability, it is true that at this point we don't deserve a Wikipedia page - I do believe that soon enough we will, since we're growing at an amazingly rapid pace. I'd just hope that the same criterion be applied to a local restaurant and a local third division soccer club. I do think that Opera Lively is more deserving than these. Anyway, my approach to this will be to continue to grow and at one point I hope to achieve notability and deserve a page - but definitely, I won't be the one creating it or making the request, I've learned by now that I shouldn't have done it. Still, I resent the label spammer... But so be it, it was my mistake to start the page, and it's OK that I need to face the consequences.

By the way, since you are an opera lover, do join us if you will, it's been exciting over there at Opera Lively - membership is entirely free (which again, makes me wonder how in the hell we're spammers, but OK, I get your point). Please, if you can help me getting James Meena's article in shape for going live, it's appreciated. Thanks a lot for your input. Oh, and I'd be interested in knowing more about the Wikipedia opera project - I hope you all won't be seeing me with enormous suspicion just because of my initial naive mistake. I do have a lot to contribute in the field of opera, really (no need to be modest here, just read my contributions at Opera Lively and you'll see that I do know this stuff). Take care.

James Meena
 James Meena, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created. You are more than welcome to continue making quality contributions to Wikipedia. Note that because you are a logged-in user, you can create articles yourself, and don't have to post a request. However, you are more than welcome to continue submitting work to Articles for Creation. Thank you for helping improve Wikipedia!
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Hi, Almavivatmm. Sorry it took a while to get back to you. I expanded your draft, referenced it and have moved it to article space. One thing you have to watch out for... I found some instances where material had been copy-pasted from other copyright websites into the draft, that's a real no-no on Wikipedia. But don't worry, it's all been copyedited out. Do check out WikiProject Opera. Our talk page is a place where all editors working the area (not just members) can ask questions, discuss articles they're working on etc. I'm going to be "away from my desk" until Monday, but after that if you have any questions or need help, just give me a shout on my talk page. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 14:18, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Meena's page, much improved, thanks to Voceditenore.
Thanks, Voceditenore for your input, the page is much better now and I'm happy that it was approved. I have a lot to learn from you! The Margaret Garner thing was finally clarified by James Meena, I just talked to him to get it right: yes, it was broadcast on NPR, just, he wasn't the conductor of that particular performance, so, I removed that part. On the other hand, he has been performing opera for NPR twice a year (different operas).

I may know you...
Hello, I am guessing, based on the topics you have written about, that I may know you, or be not more than one degree of spearation from you, "in real life." Am I correct? Eric Cable |  Talk  13:45, 4 December 2012 (UTC)