User talk:AlxzF

Plantain
You need to discuss your edits to the Plantain article on the talk page first! Although it's not my preference, it has been agreed that the article is about the English word "plantain" in the very broadest sense, i.e. cooking bananas. Please also see the Taxonomy section at Banana and the references there. The modern use of Musa × paradisiaca, as in the World Checklist of Selected Plant Families, is for all hybrids of the two species, not just plantains as per Linnaeus's original use. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:42, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The article is now split into plantain (true) and plantain (cooking). This should clear up everyone's concerns. You may get as technical as you want in describing the cultivar subgroups. You have to read the talk page to understand there is no clear botanical distinction for any banana used in cooking. You're welcome to make these edits in the botanical classifications. Sidelight 12 Talk 23:36, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not really sure splitting up plantain into cooking and true solves anything: plantians are a type of cooking banana (AAB), and I personally don't know of anyone - Musa scientist or general public - who would use the term plantain to refer to all cooking bananas, and I have been working with bananas in Latin America and Africa for over 10 years. From the ProMusa website (http://www.promusa.org/tiki-index.php?page=Plantain+subgroup): "Plantain is the name of a subgroup of cooking bananas that belong to the AAB genome group. Four bunch types are usually distinguished - French, French Horn, False Horn and Horn - some of which are further divided into size categories: giant, medium and small." Certainly no one would call Matooke a plantain, though they definitely are cooking bananas. There may be no formal botanical distinction between bananas and plantains ... but morphologically plantains as a group are distinct from other cooking bananas and distinct from dessert bananas both morphologically and by use. For example, as opposed to East African Highland Bananas (aka Matooke or EAHB-AAA - the fruit of which look much like unripe Cavendish AAA banana), plantains are longer, wider and have pointed ends. There are fewer fingers (fruit) to the hand and less hands to the bunch and in Horn and False Horn plantian cultivars, the male bud either does not develop or degrades before bunch maturity (see http://old.iita.org/cms/details/trn_mat/irg66/fig2.html and "Plantain Cultivation Under West Africa Conditions: A Reference Manual" By Rony Swennen/IITA). Anyone in a country where both plantains and cooking bananas are produced can distinguish them. Plantains are practically unknown in East Africa - though it is the largest cooking banana producing region of the world. I'd suggest a banana page, leading to a cooking and a dessert banana page, and plantains under the cooking banana page, along with other cooking bananas, like Matooke, Saba, etc. AlxzF (talk) 15:36, 6 April 2013 (UTC)Alexandra zum Felde


 * Having an article on "true plantains" solves one of your concerns actually. The other concern is the informal use of the word plantain. I suggested moving that article to "cooking banana." Every botanical cultivar group definitely needs its own page: Cavendish, true plantain, 2 groups that make up the Pacific plantains. Should we move this page to "cooking banana?" Also leave that article alone to include any plantain/banana used in cooking. Just link to the appropriate articles from the banana page. Sidelight 12 Talk 23:24, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * the encyclopedia I have (Britannica) briefly identifies cooking bananas as plantains. Also it says plantain is a staple of E Africa. I think you are referring to 'true plantains,' as opposed to 'informal plantains,' which is a botanical distinction. I think the non-botanical terminology may differ by region, by culture, by date or by source. Sidelight 12 Talk 23:49, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I would suggest reading the following article: http://www.promusa.org/tiki-index.php?page=Nomenclature+of+cultivated+bananas ... plantains = bananas that are eaten cooked, so plantains are cooking bananas ... but not all cooking bananas are plantains. The only logical solution would be to start off with a banana page in general, leading to banana (cooking) and banana (dessert) pages, to which the individual cultivar pages can be linked. If Britannica states that plantains are a staple in East Africa, their editors should do a bit more research, since the bananas eaten cooked on East Africa are East African Highland bananas (Musa AAA-EAHB), and not plantains (Musa AAB). The FAO makes a similar mistake when compiling their statistics - they have in the past occasionally (depending on the year) grouped Uganda's Matooke production under plantains, and under bananas at other times. Since there is no botanical distinction between bananas and plantains, as both are bananas, and it is primarily how they are eaten (ie.e cooked vs. raw) that distinguishes them, every Musa should be under bananas, and plantains as one type of cooking banana (among many).AlxzF (talk) 17:03, 16 April 2013 (UTC)AlxzF


 * The Oxford Dictionary of English (2nd edition) defines plantain as "a banana containing high levels of starch and little sugar, which is harvested green and widely used as a cooked vegetable in the tropics". So by this definition not only genome group AAB bananas are plantains. If we were we could (and I certainly would) refuse to use the word "plantain" in this dictionary sense. But in Wikipedia we are required to adopt a neutral point of view and reflect the variety of uses found in reliable sources (which the Oxford Dictionary of English certainly is). So "plantain" has at least four meanings:
 * Any starchy banana used cooked. Sharrock (2001) notes that in historical accounts the term "plantain" appears "to have been applied to all types of bananas that required cooking before eating, including Fe'i bananas" (ref. at Fe'i banana).
 * Any member of the AAB genome group. I'm not sure that any serious source really intends to use the term this way, but sometimes the way they write suggests this meaning. In particular regions of the world it may be the case that all AAB cultivars found there will be "plantains" in the more specific sense.
 * A member of certain subgroups of the AAB genome group: the "Pacific plantains" (Iholena and Maoli-Pōpō'ulu subgroups) and the "African plantains" (Plantain subgroup).
 * A member of the Plantain subgroup – a "true" plantain.
 * So it is to justify the use of "Plantain" as the title of an article about cooking bananas, using the term in sense 1 above. I've changed my mind several times about whether this is a good idea or not. I think that either "Plantain (cooking)" or "Banana (cooking)" are acceptable titles for an article about all uses of bananas as cooked food. There are arguments both ways!
 * I don't think that we need an article on "bananas as raw food" i.e. "dessert bananas". There's nothing much to say about the food aspects of such bananas, and the botany/horticulture is already dealt with at the general Banana article. The only reason to separate off the material on bananas as cooked food is its length: it would unbalance the Banana article if the current Plantain (cooking) article were merged into Banana. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:12, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The word "plantain" has a different meaning based on culture. I was stating what Britannica had, to show you there was another view on the word, which matches British and American usage of the word (possibly parts of latin American usage too). Your point of view that plantains were a specific type of banana is valid. I wanted to include both definitions under their appropriate articles. (Similar to the page you showed on latin binomials) There is also the Spanish word platano which literally means banana, and plantanio which means plantain varying by culture/location (and these words may get translated to English in different non-English speaking regions). You are free to start a dessert banana page, create a banana disambiguation page, and/or create links under the banana article. I believe you have a lot to contribute in this subject, so I want to learn your point of view for entry into Wikipedia.


 * Is your definition of the word "plantain" all of Musa AAB? If you have a reliable source for that, I won't refute if you want to start a page for that. The definition of true plantain has been covered.
 * Your concern of the word is your usage of the word plantain? There are at least two worldwide views.


 * Have a classification by culinary (dessert/cooking), have another classification by strictly botanical: subgroup and/or group. No matter the cultural view, it can't go wrong labeling it by botanical classification. Sidelight 12 Talk 22:52, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

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