User talk:Ambuj.Saxena/Wikipedia-logo

Support
I completely support this. That character has been a joke for too long. It's going to be very hard to make it change everywhere, but we may as well update the official copy as soon as possible. One of the quiz questions I wrote for Wikimania was related to that backwards character. I was surprised how few people knew about it. Hopefully this petition will change that. Angela. 14:54, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * What an un-wiki way of doing things. Okay, the logo is wrong, you want the logo changed - then speak to the creator or upload fixed versions. Even 100 people signing a petition won't help if nobody modifies the logo and volunteers (the harder part) for creating 250 new logos for all language wikipedias. --Elian Talk 03:26, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The purpose of this petition is to create a positive atmosphere when such changes can be made. Since, it involves an issue directly related to Wikipedia, we need to first make sure that everyone is ready. The purpose of this petition is to convince the Wikimedia Foundation that this logo needs to be changed. When that is achieved, the author of the logo can be contacted to make the changes. Most of the logos I believe are derivatives of the same logo with alternate text embedded at the bottom. So it won't take much time to fix all when one is finished. Also since one person need not do everything, the work can be divided to spped up the process. The only place where wrong logos will be displayed are the screenshots and other forms of archive that archive images also. But I don't think we need to change that. When corporations change their logo, they don't have to wipe out their earlier logos. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 04:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Bah.
Couldn't we simply *do* this? It's a one-time effort to change the logo of all the Wikipedias, and then the logo is flawless... Please? All this voting is getting us nowhere, and slowly, too... &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) 12:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

It fits the theme of the logo
Am I the only one that thinks it fits with the unfinished theme of the logo? The logo is an unfinished puzzle and could represent the beginning of a number of words like वक्रिम, वदि, etc. So why change it? - Taxman Talk 21:55, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Re: Your comment:


 * The others don't make full words of their own that I know of. Certainly W in English doesn't, and neither does [[Image:InCorrect hindi vi.png|25px]]. Both are however correct fragments of full words. I reallize the devanagari is incomplete, but my point is that fits with the logo's theme. But it's also not that big a deal to change it. Go to the logo page and contact the three or four editors named in the history and find someone that can make the fix. Then get a commons admin to make the change. There is no need to involve Jimbo in something of this variety. - Taxman Talk 21:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * "W" is an alphabet whereas "[[Image:InCorrect hindi vi.png|25px]] " is an alphabet with a diacritic stressing an unkown alphabet. For a like to like comparison, the greek omega would appear something like this in the Wikipedia logo: Ω ˆ (omega with a circumflex accenting an unknown alphabet). Surely this would not be acceptable on the logo? The purpose of script is to record speech. While I accept that both, W and [[Image:InCorrect hindi vi.png|25px]], are incomplete fragments that could be used as clues in a puzzle, the fragment must also make sense; more specifically, one should be able to speak it aloud. Even "incomplete fragments" should have rules and not just any fragment will do. For instance, "C" is a fragment of "OWL" but cannot be accepted as a clue for it invites a whole new set of difficulties in deciphering the clue. Regardless of the "puzzle" motif in Wikipedia's logo, each symbol from each of the different languages, should be, in my opinion, complete -- i.e. the symbol should be capable of being spoken aloud. [[Image:InCorrect hindi vi.png|25px]] cannot be spoken aloud. -- mowglee 07:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I've understood what you're saying all along, I simply don't agree that it's a problem. I think as a fragment of several words it fits with the theme, especially since it has to modify another character, it is exactly like an unfinished puzzle. It needs something else in exactly the same way. You agree don't because it's not a complete syllable and consider that a problem. That's fine, we can agree to disagree. But since other's have agreed with you there certainly is support for making a change and that change won't cause the logo to be more problematic, so might as well go ahead. If the people listed on the commons page don't respond, most anyone talented with image manipulation tools should be able to fix it, and there are a lot of those types of people working on commons. - Taxman Talk 16:38, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Your interpretation of the logo would be acceptable if those were random letter chosen from different languages. But I think as the English letter used is W for Wikipedia, and the Hindi letter is also [[Image:Correct hindi vi.png|20px]] for [[Image:Correct hindi vi.png|20px]]kipedia, I am sure it is a mistake which should be corrected if possible. Could someone confirm if all the other letters from other scripts are also the first letters of wikipedia in that script? - Aksi_great (talk) 20:20, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Akash, Since you asked, I looked at the logo again and found the tamil alphabet incorrectly spelled too. But I am not sure whether the intention was to use the tamil alphabet. It looks like 'li' ([[Image:InCorrect tamil vi.png]]) instead of 'wi' ([[Image:Correct tamil vi.png]]). In the tamil, smooth edges on the curve will yield 'li', a sharp one will give you the 'wi'. The line next to the alphabet should extend till the bottom. It is the second alphabet on the top-left. For the correct letter, see the lettering on Tamil wiki. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 22:50, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Heh, funny enough I never thought of that. - Taxman Talk 01:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, I failed to realise all these years that the logo contained a Tamil 'li'. For the record, another guy and I had brought the Hindi 'vi' issue to the notice of the creator of the logo at User talk:Nohat/archive 2005-02-22. He had noted that we were late enough to be inconvenient (as of 23 March 2004, almost 3 years ago!), and also that not all the glyphs were selected to be the starting glyph of Wikipedia in the respective languages. I do feel that [[Image:Proper-vi-in-hindi.png|20px]] would be better, though. [Shamelessly giving publicity to my image] :) -- Paddu 19:52, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Changing this one thing is not simple and is not the solution
It is not just the Devanagari which has caused complaints. There have also been issues with the Japanese. Unfortunately, making a textual change to a complex rendered 3-D image is extremely complicated to do without the original files and process used to create the rendering. Changing the text on the rendered logo is not possible to do in a way that will yield visually acceptable results. The only acceptable solution is to re-create the logo from scratch so that it will look identical to the current logo, except with the text corrected. To do that requires a high degree of graphical skill. We cannot just "fix" the logo by hacking it up in Paintbrush. It will look terrible. Nohat 16:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You created it right? Are you saying you don't have the original files anymore? If there are problems on other languages, commons:Image talk:Wikipedia-logo.png mentions some potential ones, can we have a centralized discussion about making the fixes? - Taxman Talk 16:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not just a question of making fixes. You have to re-render the logo. I have most of the original files used for the rendering, but the process I used on the final rendering from the 3-D renderer to make it look like the current logo has been lost to the mists of the time. I have tried re-creating the logo on several occasions, and it never looks right. Nohat 17:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Based on the number of requested fixes, people may be willing to go with "close enough". After all, close may not mean worse. Or do you think it would be worth sending the files to a few people to see if anyone can get close? - Taxman Talk 01:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * 2008
 * Try taking a look at meta:image:Wikipedia-logo_thue.png where I tried correcting two errors, the Devanagari and the Japanese. I think it turned out well. Thue | talk 13:58, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Thue, Can you please fix the tamil alphabet too per the previous section. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 19:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I already fixed that in the linked picture, I thought that was the Devanagari character. Is my fix wrong? Thue | talk 19:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Your devanagiri fix is perfect. I was referring to a different tamil character, [[Image:InCorrect tamil vi.png]] on the top-left corner. That is incorrect and need to be changed to [[Image:Correct tamil vi.png]]. The correct one has shaper edges and it's stroke extends to the bottom. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 20:09, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ahh, ok, thanks. I will give it a try one of the coming days. Thue | talk 20:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Dear colegues: the symbol you're referring as tamil, is not tamil but khmer ('lô).lô, khmer script: lô'' is third from the left. Regards, --Roblespepe (talk) 02:31, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. We don't need the tamil fix then. Ganeshk  ( talk ) 03:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Confirmed, at Khmer script. -- Quiddity (talk) 05:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it is both a Khmer character and a Tamil character, then. The problem with it was not that the character was drawn wrongly, but that it did not represent the sound "w" like the other characters in the logo. The Khmer character does not represent "w" either. So a fix would still be nice. I haven't gotten around to fixing it (Can anybody recommend a simple to use raytracer?). Thue | talk 08:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

(Unindenting) Well if you're re-creating this, we may as well do it right. Why not create a new page and publicize it so we can make sure all the fixes get made? As for the Hindi, it was sort of wrong before, but if the theme is to have just the characters that represent the W sound, the current Hindi represents "Wi" in your new logo. Might as well drop the vowel matra all together if you're starting over. Then it would be just the व character or 0935 on this unicode chart for anyone that doesn't have a Unicode font installed. Thanks for working on it and sorry I have no idea on a raytracer. - Taxman Talk 13:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * According to Wikipedia logos, they do represent the "letter from that alphabet that most closely resembles the English "W" as in "Wikipedia"."
 * However, according to Nohat at User talk:Nohat/archive 2005-02-22, "only some of the symbols were selected to represent "Wikipedia"— others were chosen at random." and 2 threads at User talk:Nohat/archive 2007-06-06 say the same thing. Angela says the same thing in meta:Talk:Main Page/Archives/2006/01. Zocky repeats it at Talk:Main Page/Archive 86.
 * So, I think unless we're going to overhaul the entire logo (and fill in those empty pieces at the bottom, and formalise what glyphs are on the hidden side) then we're good to go for replacing the currently in-use logo with Thue's version. -- Quiddity (talk) 19:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I created Errors in the Wikipedia logo to summarize wanted improvements to the logo. Thue | talk 21:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

All the related discussion links

 * Village pump (proposals)/Archive 26
 * Wikipedia talk:Village pump (proposals)/Sidebar redesign
 * Talk:Main Page/Archive 86
 * m:Talk:Main_Page/Archives/2006/01
 * (worth reading) User_talk:Nohat/archive_2005-02-22
 * (worth reading) User_talk:Nohat/archive_2005-06-12
 * User_talk:Nohat/archive_2005-11-21
 * User_talk:Nohat/archive_2007-06-06
 * ja:ノート:メインページ#wikiのロゴイメージについて
 * ja:Wikipedia:井戸端の過去ログ/2005年1月
 * ja:Wikipedia‐ノート:ロゴ/投票


 * notes
 * From a glance at commons:Category:Wikipedia logos, about 1/6 of the Wikipedias are using a slightly updated puzzleglobe, with the Ώ and Й accents removed (e.g. commons:Image:Wikipedia-logo-is.png)
 * The listings at these 2 pages, Wikipedia logos and Logo, claim we're using different (fixed) logos, Image:Wikipedia-logo-en-big.png and Image:Wikipedia-logo.png, from the one we actually are using.

Comments

 * Please add anything I missed...
 * and then maybe some courageous soul can read it all and give us a summary of how things stand? :)
 * This fix appears to be stalled, but I'm not sure what we need to help fix things (a photoshop wrangler? a specific language authority? a typographer?). —Quiddity 02:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Nohat has been contacted a number of times concerning this problem, but has returned reluctant replies. (See below) A similar problem exists in the Japanese puzzle piece too. I have included discussions to that also, as the problem seems to be related. --朝彦 (Asahiko) 15:15, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I was looking at the logo and noticed that too! The character looks like "qui" but is probably intended to be "wi." Brutannica 21:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * ... Or a "wa+i," but as mentioned in one of the links below, that combination hardly makes any sense. It looks more like a "ku," I think. Brutannica 21:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I've added a note at m:Talk:Logo and trademark policy. Anywhere else this could be mentioned to get appropriate attention? --Quiddity 20:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I've posted to queries to m:Talk:Logo and the 3 main mailing lists too. We'll figure it out eventually ;) --Quiddity 19:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * There's a NYTimes article about some of the logo problems.
 * The general feedback from the mailing list is that it's too much trouble to change (time/effort/money). See this ongoing logo thread at foundation-l and a single reply at wikipedia-l. I'm just leaving these as notes for the next person who comes along trying to fix things. --Quiddity 18:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The "logo is a disclaimer (‘This Web site is a work in progress.’)", eh? That's one interesting way to look at it... --朝彦 (Asahiko) 18:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Meta:Image:Wikipedia-logo_thue.png may be of interest to you.--Father Goose 18:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The new one's lot better, but I believe that the Tamil alphabet is still improper. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 06:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Contact Thue with your request.--Father Goose 06:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * And see the still ongoing thread at foundation-l too. --Quiddity 08:10, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

This was the last I've heard on the issue. Anyone know what's going on? --Quiddity 19:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Another new discussion at Village pump (proposals)/Archive 26, but not addressing the character problems. -- Quiddity (talk) 22:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

There is currently a thread on the foundation mailing list, discussing both a 3d version of the globe with the hidden pieces filled in, as well as the problems seen in the current logo. Just a heads up. -- Quiddity (talk) 18:35, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Setember 2008
An update. User:Ssolbergj has been updating making minor corrections. But the Hindi and Japanese fixes are still missing. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 14:14, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I have requested the Ssolbergj to check this page for information. Regards, Ganeshk  ( talk ) 14:19, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Renewing discussion
Please participate in the discussion at meta:Talk:Wikipedia/Logo, which has official support, and appears to be moving forward. -- Quiddity (talk) 22:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)