User talk:Amtoastintolerant

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Explaining my revert
Hi, I reverted your changes at Bentley University. I'm not saying that this material is entirely unsuitable, but I was concerned that it was all sourced to Bentley's own website, or to blogs or twitter accounts. There was also an issue with language that might be considered promotional - e.g. the 'highly celebrated' description of the Fed Challenge team. Can I suggest that you read through our policies on verifiability and reliable sourcing, and see if you can find some better sourcing for the stuff about awards and honorable mentions? Also, if you are a student or employee of Bentley, you should read our policy on editing with a conflict of interest and take the appropriate action. Cheers Girth Summit  (blether)  19:54, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

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Your draft article, Draft:Chen Qiushi (Lawyer)


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Sumner's page!
'''Hello, thanks for reaching out. I made some changes to the article, added citations. My general comments are below'''

'In regards to Laos and Thailand, he cites Bloomberg and WSJ, but there is no evidence. Its baseless specualation predicated upon similarities. Neither WSJ nor Bloomberg suggested the virus came from those countries. They were discussing how it may have "evolved" into something that later orginated in China. My question to you is whether the blog is a primary source of information? Is someone else writing on his blog? '''

'''If he is writing and posting, which I presume he is, then the source must be considered as primary. And the criticism comes from the source -- that is, in the comment section. We could remove widely criticized, if you don't feel that the comment section is indicative of a "wider audience", but the problem with doing this is that what constitutes a wide audience is also subjective. The people who read his work, tend to be the one's who comment. And the comments, on these posts, are mostly critical.

In a post titled "Do well behaved countries do better against Covid-19", Sumner laments that America's individualism and lack of obedience towards government are the reasons for its higher rate of infection.[citation needed]

'''I may have cited the wrong article. The correct article here is "The West's Embarrassing response to Covid". He claims that the west was "unwilling to take" the same steps as China. To praise their response is to praise their methods. One cannot logically separate the two. Their methods include locking people in their homes, setting up check points, and prohibiting travel. Supermarkets are considered "privileges".'''

In another post titled "Is China The Real Threat", Sumner downplays the regime's disparities with American democracy,[dubious – discuss] speculating that Russia's political support of Belarus is the greater threat to American liberty.

'''Sumner has written a number of posts that attempt to convince readers that China is not a threat to American democracy. I did cite one, which is titled "Is China The Real Threat", and I added another source "Trump loves Putin". I don't think Sumner would deny this. Indeed, in the post titled "Trump Loves Putin", he makes the claim that China has never violated international law, and speculates that in the next fifty years Russia is more likely to attack the U.S.. His statement about China never violating international law is incorrect. There are a few more posts as well, I'd have to real dig deeper to find them. But he's consistent about downplaying China's threat to American liberty'''

Sumner writes that fears over China's totalitarianism are simply "anti-china hysteria" or "More Trump Lies", and asks readers to disbelieve U.S. intelligence reports in posts titled "Should we believe U.S. intelligence services about China", and "Don't believe what you read about China". Sumner has also been criticized for gloating when China scores economic and political victories over the United States,[citation needed] which can be read in posts titled: "Once Again China to the Rescue", "Good News it looks like a big win for China", "How are those china crash predictions working for you", and "Random Thoughts", in which he tells his readers that TikTok is a "Christmas Gift" to the world, despite many countries banning its services over privacy violations.

The criticism comes from the comment section.

Sumner has also written extensively about former U.S. President Donald J. Trump. In a blog post titled "Trump Kills Americans to look good, no kidding!", Sumner attempts to convince his readers that the former President is "serious about killing Americans".  I think this last one is self explanatory. It's a bit radical to suggest that a conservative president, with over 70M votes, is going to "kill americans". The comment section seems to feel the same way.

'''I'm open to any edits you want to make, but I do believe the criticism is warranted. Sadly, we live in a society that is increasingly divided (with radicals on both sides), and I think wikipedia needs to reflect the moderate viewpoint. Many academics and citizens do not believe that calling political opponents killers - without any evidence whatsoever" -- or suggesting Thailand and Laos are the origin of the virus to deflect crriticism from the CCP, or consistently criticizing american intelligence because you don't like what they have to say, should go unchallenged. For example, Laurence Tribe recently suggested that Tucker Carlson should be "arrested for treason". I'm afraid that these types of radical statements need to be confronted by moderates. Sumner is a public figure, economist, and people ought to know that, at times, he's been criticized for his radical views.'''

Thanks. MR (talk) 09:12, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello User:Micahrob, I appreciate your passion on this topic, and your commitment to contributing to Wikipedia. However, if you want to have a section on Sumner's page titled "Criticism", I think it's only fair you include some criticism. We don't want weasel phrases on the page, and we want to be as concise as possible. When you write that Sumner has been criticized, please provide evidence to support that, like an article condemning his views, and tell us who is doing this. Furthermore, I think the section needs to be done in a more factual style. Currently, the tone is very passionate and opinionated, which is not what we want, as it is unencyclopedic. Phrases like "attempts to convince his readers" contain a lot of connotations, and can simply be replaced with "writes"; the "laments" in "Sumner laments that the press was 'too easy on Trump'" can be replaced with a more accurate word, etc. Also, please keep spelling and grammar in mind: spell check your edits, capitalize proper nouns, etc. Unless you can provide an example of someone criticizing Sumner's views, I think this information would be better reformatted in a section titled "Views", as I have yet to see anyone actually of note criticize or address these views. I'm glad you're taking the time to add to this article, but please be more careful with these edits.

Best, 15:03, 25 February 2022 (UTC)Amtoastintolerant (talk)

I somewhat disagree. I've permitted much of what you've said to stand, but I've changed a few words. I'm more interested in the facts than his reputation. Neither WSJ nor Bloomberg even remotely implied that the virus originated in Thailand or Laos. He misread both articles. You claim "nobody of note" criticizes, Scott Sumner. This is not only an incredibly arrogant statement, but it's factually untrue. A number of economists have criticized his views, including some of the most notable (i.e., Paul Krugman) -- not to mention, their are more than 20,000 scientists who disagree with his Covid opinions (Great Barrington Declaration, along with notable virologist Robert W. Malone, and notable cardiologist Peter McCullough, among countless others). Calling these scientists "anti-science", or "conspiracy theorists" is also quite radical. I may add to this vaccine section in the future to more accurately depict the comments he's made (i.e., calling academics "anti-sciencists", and calling people "anti-vaxx" and "killers", for not wanting to get the vaccine).

I don't believe the word "lament" is unencyclopedic, and I think it summarizes his position quite well. I did not readd the word, but I don't agree with your assessment. I think you are worried about his reputation, which is understandable, but it's clearly not unencyclopedic. And it's not unencyclopedic to quote him directly.

Thanks MR (talk) 21:41, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello MR,

Thank you for taking the time to review and consider my edits to the page, and I'm glad to see we're reaching an agreement on the article, as I think it's in a much better state now than before either of us began editing it. Just to clarify, when I say that you've failed to demonstrate Sumner's ideas have earned him criticism, I mean that you haven't shown me an example of a notable person directly addressing Sumner. I agree that he's made a lot of statements which are controversial, and that many experts disagree with, but so long as I can't find an example of someone of note directly criticizing Sumner for saying this, I think it would be more encyclopedic to simply juxtapose the claim with statements/consensuses from experts, rather than creating a section titled "Criticism" if no one notable is directly criticizing him.

I look forward to your future contributions, although I "lament" you calling my statements "incredibly arrogant" and "factually untrue", when I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying: disagreement with Sumner's statements do not mean that someone is criticizing him, since they're not addressing him at all. I would also caution against some of the material you're trying to put into this page: this is not the place to debate whether the media was fair or unfair to Trump, regardless on whether you have one study which dips its toes into this topic; nor does using the term "anti-vax" (with one "x", please check your spelling before making edits, as you've routinely made relatively simple errors) constitute a controversy, although I have left in the comments on "Trump Derangement Syndrome" since Wikipedia has concluded that it is a pejorative term, whereas "anti-vax" is not. Regardless, I hope we're able to continue adding more relevant content within the scope of Scott Sumner to this page!

Best, --Amtoastintolerant (talk) 04:12, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't believe you are accurately representing what was said in the comment section. Please read the comments over the last two years before editing. I believe my assesment is much more accurate - that is, the comments targeted his support for NATO, his statements about the vaccine, and/or ad hominem attacks: for example, some commenters called him "boomertard" and a "warmongerer". But not all of the comments were deranged, and very few of them mentioned Trump or Putin directly.

The term "right-wing" is also subjective.

And you also deleted the Havard study, which seems to be an effort to hide information relevant to his "trump media coverage" comments. On the other hand, the word "signficant" might not be necessary or justifiable considering there are opposing views over what constitutes a "privacy risk". MR (talk) 20:32, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello again MR,

Please see the most recent comment on your talk page. I have given thorough explanations for my edits, and explained why your contributions need to include more thorough citations, more clear explanations, and need to stick to the scope of this article. If you want to object to the usage and relevance of the term "right-wing", I will be happy to work out a different term with you that summarizes the figures in question. The Harvard (not "Havard", please be more thorough with your spelling) study is simply not relevant to this page, as it is not authoritative, given the significant amounts of discourse on the matter, nor is Sumner's page the place to discuss whether media coverage towards Trump was fair or not, but rather, to discuss what Sumner says.

Best, Amtoastintolerant (talk) 20:38, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Let's go through this line by line, because it's clearly very difficult for you to engage substance.

In a number of posts, going back for more than two years, several commenters have pointed to Lancet articles that show low rates of efficacy, and side effects. To give just one of numerous examples (you clearly didn't read the comments), a commenter named Yohan, cited https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(22)00028-1/fulltext. That commenter is now banned. A commenter named Rinat, often cited the 'great barrington declaration', along with lancet articles, as his rebuttal to comments made around masks, vaccine passports, safety, efficacy, and the like. Despite providing sources, that commenter was widely ridiculed and banned. See https://gbdeclaration.org/ to learn about the more than 20,000 scientists who have now signed this document.

But again, let's go through line by line. Here is the paragraph:

Sumner has deleted past messages, and has banned people he calls "Russian Trolls" from posting on his blog. Some of the deleted messages were links to articles published in the medical journal Lancet. These articles were contrary to the views of the prevailing orthodoxy. Other messages included ad hominem attacks, typically directed at Sumner's support for NATO. Some of these commenters would cite past aggressions, such as NATO's bombing of Somalia, Libya, Syria, Bosnia, and Latin America, whereas others would cite RT documentaries such as "Donbass: The Grey Zone". These commenters argued that western media portrays the Ukranian civil war inaccurately. [40][41]

Has Sumner deleted past messages? Yes. Factually true. A woman named Sarah, in a comment said "I noticed my message on the other post was deleted; I suppose it's not allowed to mention the 100,000 deaths" (apparently referring to Donbas)

Has Sumner banned commenters. Of course! Article has been cited.

Has he called people "Russian Trolls". Of course.

The prevailing orthodoxy means "mainstream thought". Please look up that term and read the definition. When twitter, FB, Sumner and others "cancel people", the impetus for doing so typically revolves around this idea that their views are contrary to the views of the CDC and the medical establishment. That is why Robert Malone uses Telegram, where free speech is permitted. It's why doctors who disagree are afraid to say anything at all. Surely, you can understand the term "prevailing orthodoxy".

Are there ad hominem attacks directed at Sumner's support for NATO. Yes, of course. One doesn't have to look back that far to find them.

Were commenters citing what they perceived as "past aggressions", along with RT's donbas documentary. Yes. Factually true. One only has to look at the comment section in a number of posts, one of which was already cited, to find this comment.

"Right wing" is a pejorative term. It's also used subjectively. It's not clear to those of us who are highly educated, as to precisely what that means. What does it mean to be "right-wing". RFK jr, a democrat, is called "right wing" because he is opposed to many vaccines. Jordan Peterson, a moderate liberal is called "right wing", because he doesn't support curtailing free speech. Joe Rogan, another moderate liberal, is called "right wing" because he dares to listen to the views of others, such as Robert Malone and Peter McCullough. It's not a good choice of words. Many Trump supporters call him "moderate". Ted Cruz, a Harvard Attorney, and senator, who is often called "right wing" and occassionally called "Hitler", is has pretty moderate views, unless you consider the framers "right-wing".

Please attack the substance, and refrain from mentioning "spelling" or "grammar" as your argument, which you've done three times now.

After all, the structure of this sentence....

Sumner, frustrated by people he calls "morons", has attempted to prevent people from associating his views with support of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), has contrasted China, which he calls "a very good country of 1.4 billion people", with the CCP, which he describes as "a very evil government".[19]

...is so awful, that one doesn't even want to spend the time fixing it. Hint: you are missing a grammatical conjuction.

Or this sentence: Sumner has lamented what he sees as "anti-China" sentiment in the United States and Europe.[15][16] According to you, the word "lament" is "unencyclopedic". Or is that only when I use it?

Let's get a grip with reality, and leave the politics out of wikipedia.

I've been published four times in the last month, so I'm not going to argue with you over style and grammar. Let's talk about the substance. MR (talk) 22:05, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello again MR,

Since you want to talk about substance, I'm going to ignore the ramblings of your response, since I'm not here to talk about Joe Rogan or Ted Cruz. I'm going to highlight the numerous typos you made in this response though ("occassionally" and "conjuction"), since spelling and grammar is in fact quite important here on Wikipedia.

First, let's address your edits regarding the Lancet comments. If you want to include that in this article, you should specify the topic of said papers in Lancet. Saying "Some of the deleted messages were links to articles published in the medical journal Lancet." doesn't give the reader an idea of what the actual comments made were, what article(s) in the Lancet they linked to, or why Sumner deleted them. Simply adding "These articles were contrary to the views of the prevailing orthodoxy." doesn't fix anything. Still, you've failed to provide a citation to support any of this. If you're so confident that these exchanges happened, simply provide a citation for it and move on, since we don't publish information here without sources backing them up.

Second, you've ignored the entire point I've made about why including the information about the commenter's documentary is not needed: it is superfluous. This is an article about Scott Sumner, and frankly, what documentary the commenters linked to is completely irrelevant.

Third, regarding my use of the term "right-wing", this is the general consensus reached by Wikipedians found on the respective articles of Donald Trump and Tucker Carlson. This attribute is backed up by numerous sources, and is not up for debate on an article about Scott Sumner. If you take issue with this label, leave a message on the respective Talk pages of the two figures in question.

For someone so concerned by "substance", you spent half of this rambling message talking about politics completely unrelated to Sumner, and the other half trying to point out a grammatically incorrect sentence that has a completely fine syntax. I'm reverting your edits once more, since you refused to engage with the issues I put forth. Given Wikipedia's policy on edit warring, I highly advise you cease these low-effort reversions. Please post your concerns to the Scott Sumner Talk page, where you can receive more input on your potential changes, rather than simply belligerently reverting good-faith edits, or I will move this over to Dispute Resolution.

I wish you the best, Amtoastintolerant (talk) 22:37, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

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Edit Request for Dahua Technology
Hi Amtoastintolerant. I have some suggestions for improvements to the Dahua Technology article. I noticed that you show interest in Chinese-related pages and that you have worked on Binjiang District, which is where Dahua Technology is headquartered. Therefore, I thought you may be interested in reviewing my edit request on Dahua's talk page. I would appreciate if you can implement the two remaining points which have not yet been addressed. If you have any thoughts about the suggestions, I would be happy to discuss them. Thank you, Caitlyn23 (talk) 17:38, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Additional Content for Dahua Technology
Hi Amtoastintolerant, thank you again for your help with implementing some edits on the Dahua Technology article. I have put up a new edit request on the talk page which includes some suggested additions for the article. I was hoping you'd be interested in reviewing it and making the relevant edits, if you agree they should be added. Of course, I am happy to discuss any of the suggestions. Thank you, Caitlyn23 (talk) 21:28, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Discussion on Dahua Technology Talk Page
Hi Amtoastintolerant, I am reaching out about this old discussion at Talk:Dahua_Technology. As you have previously assisted with edits for Dahua Technology, I was hoping you may be able to weigh in. Thanks so much, Caitlyn23 (talk) 16:49, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

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