User talk:Ancus

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Bugnini
Hello Ancus. Thank you for your edits to User:Stroika/masonism. I like your outline of why Masonism is a problem. I have just tidied it up a bit and would like to import the whole of the draft as it now stands with one exception.

"Many Traditionalist Catholics see in Bugnini's alleged Masonic affiliations an explanation for what they regard as deeply problematic and un-Catholic changes in the liturgy (see Mass of Paul VI), though one does not, perhaps, have to be a Traditionalist Catholic to make a link between Masonic values on Bugnini's part and the course of the liturgical reform."

Can we replace this with the following please?

"Many Catholics - both Traditionalists (who prefer the pre-Vatican II liturgy) as well as more mainstream Catholics - see in Bugnini's alleged Masonic affiliations an explanation for what they regard as deeply problematic and un-Catholic changes in the liturgy (see Mass of Paul VI)."

I see what you mean I just think it is needlessly complex to refer vaguely to Bugnini's "Masonic values" without spelling them out. It is not as though everybody else on Consilum were clones of Klaus Gamber or Alfons Stickler, more's the pity some might say. Apart from anything else Bugnini handpicked them (hence the disproportionate number of Italians). To judge from Alcuin Reid's book on Organic Development the post Conciliar Liturgical books were pretty conservative compared to the sort of thing some academic liturgists were proposing. [Added later: Bugnini was not the only one with progressive ideas.]

Incidentally this article is worth mining at some point. It says ''Now, Fr. Bugnini had been secretary of the Council's Preparatory Commission for the Liturgy. Because his work had not been satisfactory-it had taken place under the direction of Cardinal Gaetano Cicognani-he was not promoted to secretary of the Conciliar Commission...An organized group of liturgists represented this neglect to Paul VI as an injustice against Fr. Bugnini, and they managed to see that the new Pope, who was very sensitive to such procedures, righted that "injustice" by naming Fr. Bugnini as secretary of the new Consilium responsible for the implementation of the reform.'' So much for "pushy" etc etc.

I have ordered a 2nd hand copy of Davies' trilogy. I will be annoyed if there is no more information there than in the article. --Stroika 17:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hello Ancus. Thaank you for all your edits. Your mention of the alleged Masonism in the introduction is perfectly proper I think. It is a pity that apart from his behaviour in the Consilium years it is the onl;y aspect of his life with any detailed information in English. I believe somebody wrote a biography in Italian but I don't think it has ever been translated (I don't read Italian). I have taken the liberty of importing the revised version (including your own latest proposals) into the article. It has been a pleasure editing all this with you. On Davies you are right. Contrary to what he implies, his book does not give much more documentation. In fact the only thing it has that the article is lacking is the Italian text of the letter from this mysterious priest. There is some material on the role of Protestant observers but if anywhere that belongs on the article the about the Missale Romanum 1970.
 * I don't know how long you have been editing Wikipedia but judging by your contribs section not long. I hope you don't mind me passing on a couple of tips from an (ahem) older hand: (1) Leave messages for a user on his/her talk page as this generates an alert that messages have been left. Leaving messages on the User page doesn't do that. (2) A heads up on dates. There is no need to use the format for isolated days, months or years. The only time one must do it is for full dates when the format is " June 6 1960 " as this allows user preferences to kick in, it is not strictly speaking a link it just generates one in passing. See MOS:DATE. I believe there is some plan to change the software so that to allow date prefs a different syntax will have to be used. Best wishes --Stroika 11:56, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * All seems fine by me. From now on let's just make changes as we see fit and if either of us or anyone else doesn't like it we can always revert (subject to all the usual rules of courtesy WP:DR and WP:3RR of course. Nobody owns any article on Wikipedia. Not you not me not anyone. I'm going to be out of here for a few days. Do you read German or French? If you do there might be something worth culling from the French or German articles. (Links on the left). Best wishes --Stroika 17:34, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * NB I have requested the user subpage be deleted. I should have created a general sandbox page (renaming will create a redirect and I want as few pages as possible to check for vandalism).--Stroika 11:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Catholic Social Teaching
Hi,

I really like your edits to the Catholic Social Teaching article, particularly the intro. I wasn't at all happy with it and had planned to get around to fixing it. You did a much better job than I could. --Briancua 12:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)