User talk:AndrewBean2008

September 2021
Hello AndrewBean2008. The nature of your edits gives the impression you have an undisclosed financial stake in promoting a topic, but you have not complied with Wikipedia's mandatory paid editing disclosure requirements. Paid advocacy is a category of conflict of interest (COI) editing that involves being compensated by a person, group, company or organization to use Wikipedia to promote their interests. Undisclosed paid advocacy is prohibited by our policies on neutral point of view and what Wikipedia is not, and is an especially serious type of COI; the Wikimedia Foundation regards it as a "black hat" practice akin to black-hat search-engine optimization.

Paid advocates are very strongly discouraged from direct article editing, and should instead propose changes on the talk page of the article in question if an article exists. If the article does not exist, paid advocates are extremely strongly discouraged from attempting to write an article at all. At best, any proposed article creation should be submitted through the articles for creation process, rather than directly.

Regardless, if you are receiving or expect to receive compensation for your edits, broadly construed, you are  required by the Wikimedia Terms of Use to disclose your employer, client and affiliation. You can post such a mandatory disclosure to your user page at User:AndrewBean2008. The template Paid can be used for this purpose – e.g. in the form:. If I am mistaken – you are not being directly or indirectly compensated for your edits – please state that in response to this message. Otherwise, please provide the required disclosure. In either case, do not edit further until you answer this message. MrOllie (talk) 12:01, 17 September 2021 (UTC) AndrewBean2008 (talk) 15:22, 17 September 2021 (UTC) Hi Ollie, I would like to say that I am not receiving any compensation for my posts. I believe I received this in error, I have a narrow scope of knowledge on this subject and have used only non-objective sources for my materials I have uploadedAndrewBean2008 (talk) 15:22, 17 September 2021 (UTC).


 * 'not receiving any compensation for my posts' is cutting it more narrowly that what the policy lays out. If you are employed by, hold any ownership in, or are otherwise associated with this company the paid disclosure requirements will apply. - MrOllie (talk) 15:25, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

AndrewBean2008 (talk) 15:36, 17 September 2021 (UTC) I am neither of those. I am very new to Wiki as I just graduated so sorry if I have sent duplicate messages. I have actually been researching this company since I was in school, mainly using google scholar to find sources. I even wrote a paper on it as well. Since I only edit related content I could see how this was construed, however, I do believe all my edits are fair and neutral. Once again, since I am new I am not sure how this all works quite yet, but I do like to clean up pages that I see when something is wrong.AndrewBean2008 (talk) 15:36, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

AndrewBean2008 (talk) 16:32, 17 September 2021 (UTC) I can continue to edit?


 * Yes, but take care to edit more neutrally from now on. H.J. Cave & Sons looks like an advertisement rather than a neutral article. - MrOllie (talk) 16:56, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

AndrewBean2008 (talk) 17:16, 17 September 2021 (UTC)Ok thanks, I will make the proper adjustments and fix the page to reflect a neutral tone. I did take Moynat's page as a reference as the two founders have similar histories, but it would seem that page is not neutral. It may take a day or so for me to tweak it, keep an eye on it & let me know if it looks good.AndrewBean2008 (talk) 17:16, 17 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I removed a lot of poorly sourced stuff. Generally speaking you should stick to reputable secondary sources and avoid primary sources such as patents and design registrations and/or self published books, especially when invention is disputed. See WP:RS for details. - MrOllie (talk) 17:20, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

AndrewBean2008 (talk) 18:46, 17 September 2021 (UTC) This is noted, there does seem to be sufficient evidence for invention of the handbag and there's seemingly no disputes of the invention of the handbag. I will add additional secondary sources to the claim of invention so there is multiple to solidify it ranging from 1983 to 2018. For the other items like luggage innovations, there is only primary patent sources so for those so I will not include them.
 * Most historians date the handbag to significantly before Harriet Cave was born. - MrOllie (talk) 18:51, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

AndrewBean2008 (talk) 19:04, 17 September 2021 (UTC) This would be the "leather" handbag that was invented by H.J. Cave, not the first handbag as a concept. In fashion school we learned that handbags were indeed invented much earlier. The first leather handbag, however, does seem to be invented by H.J. Cave. This is seen with advertisements and via. the living handbag made for Samuel Parkinson that was in the former TassenmuseumAndrewBean2008 (talk) 19:04, 17 September 2021 (UTC)


 * No. People have been making leather bags in that size for a long, long time. There are mentions in medieval writings, and IIRC the met has a few in their collection that date to the 1400s. Perhaps what you mean to say is they produced the first bags with 'modern' styling, which I could agree with. - MrOllie (talk) 19:07, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

AndrewBean2008 (talk) 19:30, 17 September 2021 (UTC)Yes I would agree with that. i will use the phrasing "modern leather handbag" so theres no confusion about that. You are correct, the concept of leather pouches and reticules are seen earlier, similar to Iceman Otzi's leather pouch and others, but these would be a far cry from the "modern handbag," and more like flimsy reticules. Especially considering that handbags are typically made for women and the word itself originates in the late 1800s. I will edit accordingly so it is less confusing. For the intro is there any good Wiki pages I can look at that are similar. Most similar brands like Givenchy, Loewe, Moynat seem to have intros that are commercialized AndrewBean2008 (talk) 19:30, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

AndrewBean2008 (talk) 21:11, 17 September 2021 (UTC)I cannot edit the page with updated content, can you review my changes. I removed the sub categories and instead opted for one page format. I removed a lot of content to make it more readable and neutral. Added a source which shows structural HJ Cave changes and removed the fluff. No more suggestive elements, should be much cleaner nowAndrewBean2008 (talk) 21:11, 17 September 2021 (UTC) AndrewBean2008 (talk) 22:56, 17 September 2021 (UTC) not sure why it didnt upload, but I redid it. Should be fine now take a look.AndrewBean2008 (talk) 22:56, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

As always this edit is fact only, no implied language. Thanks for your help in making it objective, that's been something I have had to learn & adapt from my essay. As a student immigrant to the UK speaking Kannada and having English as a second language, I am glad to see that I can have an effect too and bring knowledge to the public domain. I thought I would rewrite the second paragraph of the summary after looking at the edits. My first edit did not summarize the article in an abstract form like other Wiki pages (i am still learning). I also think that the world fair is rather important to understanding why Cave got the English Warrant, especially since the Queen sponsored it. It's also consistently mentioned in most of the sources as a defining moment and was the basis of my climax in my essay. In fashion school my Prof. said it was considered a "heritage element." That being said, I chose not to mention the wins at the world fairs as it is unconstructive to the narrative. I made sure to include your edits to make it correct. I used a source from the Dept. of Commerce I thought was super helpful too as it basically compiles the corporate history into 4 paragraphs, including references to heirs. Change Paragraph 2 to "The company was established in 1839 by sole-proprietor Harriet Jane Cave creating railway baskets and leather trunks.[5] In 1856 Harriet began expanding the company to create a range of products including travel-bags, wickerworks, and portmanteaus[13]. After the Queen of England sponsored participation at the World Fairs, H.J. Cave was awarded the English Royal Warrant of Appointment to Queen Alexandra, and later Princess Victoria.[11][19] Following the death of Harriet, H.J. Cave would be conferred to her son, William, and his wife Sarah who would release the “Osilite” trunk as the demand for lightweight trunks increased following the adoption of automobile and flight travel.[21][10] Following a decline in production after WW2, the company fell into a period of dormancy. Over the years, the company would change hands several times, and was formally reintroduced in the early 2000s and subsequently sold to foreign owners."[7] AndrewBean2008 (talk) 21:06, 20 September 2021 (UTC)