User talk:Anthalipatcha

Hello Anthalipatcha, thanks for your contribution on Enrico Corte’s Wikipedia page. This is Silloge, editor of Corte’s page; I’d like to open a discussion. About your corrections: Corte was not invited by the Progetto Oreste network to join in their project at the Italian Pavilion of the 1999 Venice Biennale, as Corte was in fact one of the main members of the Progetto Oreste since the previous year: at least since the first group's gathering in 1998 in the Paliano residence, along with the artists Cesare Pietroiusti, Giancarlo Norese and others (cf. the book “Progetto Oreste Uno: un programma di residenza per artisti presso la Foresteria Comunale di Paliano”, Charta, 1999). The invitation to the Biennale as artist-curator came after the group's meetings, first in Rome and then in Venice, with the director of the Biennale Harald Szeemann, when the Venetian exhibition was in its planning stage, as written by the critic Gianluca Marziani in his monograph about Corte "Enrico Corte - Spectrospective” published by Damiani in 2008, on page 56 and page 265. (Marziani also participated in the Progetto Oreste at the Biennale, as appears in the book "Oreste at the Venice Biennale”, Charta, 2000, on page 249: I think he can be considered a reliable witness to those days). After the meetings with Szeemann, the main artists/curators of the Venetian days of the Progetto Oreste actually invited a number of other artistic and cultural operators (musicians, poets, intellectuals, film directors, etc. etc.) to take part in Oreste, but Corte was not one of these artistic or cultural operators: Corte was one of the main organizers/curators of Progetto Oreste, invited, along with the other artists/organizers/curators (Pietroiusti, Norese, etc.), by Szeemann in person.

The complete calendar of events organized by Corte at the 1999 Biennale, and the corresponding list of people invited by him, is visible in the book “Oreste at the Venice Biennale”, pp. 128-137. With ten pages edited by Corte full of reports and interviews to his guests, he was also one of the main editor/contributors of the book (most of the other artists/curators edited three or four pages each). Corte also found one of the main sponsors of Progetto Oreste at the Biennale: J. Walter Thompson (“the biggest of five advertising holding companies that control a significant portion of the world's advertising, marketing and communications firms." Source: Wikipedia), who helped financing the whole project (cf. “Oreste at the Venice Biennale” p. 129). Corte, with the help of his colleague artist Andrea Nurcis, invited about 50 persons, including four actors of Beppe Gaudino’s film “Giro di lune tra terra e mare” from Rome and Naples; four members of the Teatro della Polvere from Bologna; eight members of the music label Setola di Maiale from Udine; three members of Radio B-92 from Belgrade. Thanks to the Oreste network, Corte managed to find free accommodation in Venice for all the guests he selected, but he had to pay for their travel expenses. The travel expenses from Belgrade, still under the Milosevic regime and in a permanent state of war, were particularly relevant; to solve that problem Corte got in touch with the Italian Ambassador in Belgrade Daniele Rampazzo to obtain the necessary visas and with the Soros Foundation for financial support, as written in the book “Oreste at the Venice Biennale” on page 129 and by Gianluca Marziani on “Enrico Corte - Spectrospective” on page 56.

As Marziani wrote on page 56: “Among the many people selected and called by Corte to debate with the public at the Biennale, a great deal of interest was aroused by a group of film and radio directors from the then tormented ex-Yugoslavia, fundamental figures in the historic Radio B-92 which had been outlawed by the Milosevic regime. Corte gets in contact with the directors in Belgrade, under te NATO bombing of Spring ’99. The controversial, and almost impossible, arrival in Venice of these people in such a difficult moment should be considered one of the artist’s masterpieces in diplomacy and shrewdness, which was effected through fanciful, semi-legal bureaucratic stratagems, with the support of the Italian ambassador in Belgrade and the Soros Foundation." Sorry for such a long quote; this is to say that, although any of the Oreste’s participants were important and any contribution was significant, Corte was not merely one of the many people (hundreds) invited by the network to join the Venetian exhibition. What Corte has organized inside the Italian Pavilion during the Oreste’s days is something no one can do without an invitation, authorization and complete support (including the indispensable use of the official Biennale logo for the mail exchanges with the Italian ambassador in Belgrade to obtain the VISAS I mentioned) by the director of the exhibition, that is Harald Szeemann. But a Wikipedia page must necessarily be something synthetic, so I didn't think it was necessary to add all this story in its details on Corte’s page.

Besides, there also is a 2016 interview in which Enrico Corte and Andrea Nurcis remember, among other things of their lives, their meetings with Szeemann. As Corte says in the Chapter V of the long interview: “E questo è ciò che anche io e Andrea abbiamo cercato di mettere in pratica, nel momento in cui la sorte ci ha fornito l’opportunità di essere artisti-curatori. Quando nel 1998 ri-incontriamo Harald Szeemann a Venezia (vi ricordate la mostra Aperto 80 curata da lui e Bonito Oliva ai Magazzini del Sale durante la Biennale del 1980, di cui ho parlato all’inizio? E’ un altro cerchio che si chiude) è lui che vuole affidare a noi e ad altri artisti di un nostro network romano la curatela di una sezione del padiglione Italia della Biennale ’99." (The whole interview is here: https://montecristowritings.tumblr.com/ugougo).

As long-time and active member of Progetto Oreste, he couldn’t invite himself to join Oreste at the Biennale: no one but Szeemann could invite Oreste’s main members, including Corte, to organize their personal projects for the Biennale. All the events organized by Corte, and the list of people invited by him at the Biennale, was of course previously approved by Szeemann and by the other main members of the Oreste network. That’s the reason why I wrote: “On the international level, the Swiss critic Harald Szeemann invited Corte to organize, as artist/curator, a section of the 48th Venice Biennale.” Please let me know what you think about that. Thanks for your time and consideration, Regards, Silloge

I think there's something missing about the last correction
Hello, this is Silloge again, thanks for improving Enrico Corte's page. I notice that the name of Harald Szeemann is still missing. As I tried to explain in my previous message, I think my original sentence was actually correct according to the two notes I added in the reference section of the page, that is: what is written in the book “Oreste at the Venice Biennale”, Milan: Charta, 2000, pp. 128-137 (the content of ten pages edited by Corte as one of the main members of the Oreste project at the 1999 Biennale), and what art critic Gianluca Marziani wrote in the monograph “Enrico Corte - Spectrospective”, Bologna: Damiani, 2008 (Marziani, himself a witness of those Venetian days, tells the whole story underlining the fact that Harald Szeemann invited Corte to present a series of events at the Italian pavilion of the Venice Biennale).

The two references are probably enough, but I’m going to add a further reference to my sentence. As I told in my previous discussion message, there is a 2016 interview in which Corte affirms: “E questo è ciò che anche io e Andrea abbiamo cercato di mettere in pratica, nel momento in cui la sorte ci ha fornito l’opportunità di essere artisti-curatori. Quando nel 1998 ri-incontriamo Harald Szeemann a Venezia (vi ricordate la mostra Aperto 80 curata da lui e Bonito Oliva ai Magazzini del Sale durante la Biennale del 1980, di cui ho parlato all’inizio? E’ un altro cerchio che si chiude) è lui che vuole affidare a noi e ad altri artisti di un nostro network romano la curatela di una sezione del padiglione Italia della Biennale ’99.” The whole 5-chapters long interview is entirely online at the address https://montecristowritings.tumblr.com/ugougo.

Obviously I’m in contact with Enrico Corte as well as with Andrea Nurcis, who helped organizing the events for Oreste at the Biennale. Although three references per sentence are even too many, I could ask the artists for two extra references: two signed declarations by Enrico Corte and Andrea Nurcis in their respective official websites (enricocorte.net and andreanurcis.net) in which they confirm the invitation by Harald Szeemann in person. On request (if needed), the two artists are ready to publish the declarations on their websites, and I’m ready to add them in the reference section of Corte’s Wikipedia page.

Corte’s page has been rated by the Wikipedia’s admins as “B-Class” on the project’s quality scale. That means: “the article is suitably referenced with inline citations, reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenges is cited. The article reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies. It contains a large proportion of the material necessary for an A-Class article, although some sections may need expansion, and some less important topics may be missing.” I’m proud to have done such a good job; thank you for pushing me to further improve my article.

Regards, Silloge

Re: I think there's something missing about the last correction
Hi Silloge, excuse me for late response, due to the tough times...

I have two questions: what do you mean for "un nostro network romano" and "una sezione del padiglione Italia"? Which network? Which section? There were no sections and boundaries in dAPERTutto: this was the challenging innovation in Szeemann's vision, who invited the whole Progetto Oreste and not the single artists to take part to the International exhibition.

Regards, and stay safe! anthalipatcha Anthalipatcha (talk) 10:38, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

My sources are the only things that matter
First of all, I’m not Enrico Corte; it’s him that said “un nostro network romano”, not me. I simply quote Corte’s interview. That’s my job here: collecting reliable sources. I think Corte needed to be synthetic with those words because that 2016 interview was not about Oreste anyway. To get an idea, read the whole interview. Corte has a four-decade-long career, including museum retrospectives, and his participation in Oreste is of minor importance. However, I’m not writing about Oreste here, but about Orestecinema: the contribution/project of Corte and Nurcis for Oreste at the Biennale. As you know, a network is made of personal contributions and projects: not all the members of Oreste actually knew each other or worked together. A network is a sum of separate individualities, but now we are just speaking about one of them: Enrico Corte. If you have a precise idea about the meaning of Oreste, you can easily explain it on Oreste’s Wikipedia page.

2) I rewrote the whole paragraph about the 1999 Biennale, Szeemann, Oreste, Orestecinema etc., putting the whole story in a wider context, still synthetic but more detailed. Please note: all the things, names and events I wrote about are carefully referenced, and that’s the only thing that really counts. If you don’t agree with my writings, please check my references first, or cite precise sources, not your personal opinions. The problem here is not what I wrote, but that you seem not to consider my sources and references.

3) I deleted the word “section” and used “program” and “project” instead. The project was actually Orestecinema, Corte and Nurcis’ contribution to Oreste. From June 10 through November 7, 1999, there were many chronologically organized projects/events inside Oreste’s program: sixty-eight, to be precise (see list on the book “Oreste at the Venice Biennale”, page 35.). Many of those projects and/or events just lasted one, two or three days; Orestecinema was not simply a “one-day event” but an articulated project because it lasted one week and contained a number of events, film and video screenings, press conferences, musical meetings, concerts, lectures, etc. There were so many events in Orestecinema that, in addition to the Room A of the Italian pavilion, they expanded to other spaces: the Chiostro dei Tolentini, and the Aula Magna of the Facoltà di Architettura in Venice (Check “Oreste at the Venice Biennale,” page 128).

4) I rewrote the name of Harald Szeemann, because when speaking about that Biennale we need to mention the name of its director. Besides, as I tried to explain (and Marziani says in the monograph he wrote, and Corte himself says in the above mentioned 2016 interview), Szeemann’s invitation and support was fundamental to permit Corte and Nurcis to realize the whole Orestecinema project, especially for the trip to Venice of the Radio B92’s members, that was organized well in advance. In other words: Corte and Nurcis actually met Szeemann, he invited the two artists to put into practice their project Orestecinema (inside the Oreste project for the Biennale), and their project was obviously approved and fully supported by him. That’s what my sources say. If you disagree, quote your sources, not your personal opinion about Szeemann.

5) I think the Orestecinema paragraph is just fine now. As I said before, its names and events are carefully, almost obsessively referenced; there’s no point in deleting anything. If you delete names, words or whatever, I’m ready to rewrite them again and again, because they’re based on sources, books, articles, interviews, catalogues, that is: credible, verifiable information. If you have access to precise sources of information that say something contrary to my writings, please be sure they’re comparable to my sources. Are you a witness of those Venetian days? Is there a published book you wrote about that Biennale experience? Because, although your anonymous point of view deserves respect as any other, I can’t use it as a “source”, or reference. For instance: Gianluca Marziani is a well-known art critic with more than 25 years of international experience, and also a reliable witness of Oreste at the Biennale (his name is quoted in the book “Orestes at the Venice Biennale,” page 249), so I use what he wrote in the monograph “Enrico Corte - Spectrospective” as a credible source of information. If you don’t believe it, call Marziani and contradict him, not me.

6) As far as I’m concerned, our “talk” is over now. Please note: the page is about Corte and not about Oreste; in Corte’s page there’s no need to explain the whole meaning of the Oreste network, or the newness of Szeemann’s way of thinking. Again, if you have a precise idea about the meaning of Oreste, please feel free to explain it on Oreste’s Wikipedia page. If you insist on arbitrarily modifying or deleting part of my writings I’ll have to defend the work I’ve done. That means: I’ll follow the procedure provided by Wikipedia in these cases and ask the Wikipedia admins to intervene. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Silloge (talk • contribs) 10:30, 5 May 2020 (UTC)