User talk:Antidiskriminator/Archive 11

The Bugle: Issue CIII, October 2014, Redux
NOTE: This replaces the earlier October 2014 Bugle message, which had incorrect links -- please ignore/delete the previous message. Thank uou! The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here. If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. Your editors, Ian Rose (talk) and Nick-D (talk) 01:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Breach of topic ban
G'day Antid. Been a while. I just wanted to point out that your current topic ban "Serbs and Serbia 1900-current" includes this, especially given that this Albanian kingdom included annexed parts of what is now (and had been) Serbia. Not reporting it, just reminding you. Regards, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 10:04, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * For the record: I agree with . Thanks, Drmies (talk) 17:15, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Re: Paškal Jukić
Nice work, I've made a couple of minor fixes.

BTW: there is no article on Il Regio Dalmata – Kraglski Dalmatin, a major topic, so I was thinking if there was a chance to write this article too (I'd volunteer) and then nominate both of them with a double DYK hook? GregorB (talk) 20:23, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Haven't seen your hook, but now I see that it fits perfectly. You don't have to withdraw the nom, just add a note asking the reviewers not to start the review before Oct 26. (Which is a deadline for me to finish, but it is not going to be hard meeting it.) I'm starting the article shortly, and will expand it over the next 3-4 days. There's no risk - if anything goes awry, you'll be able to proceed with your nom as planned. GregorB (talk) 20:39, 21 October 2014 (UTC)


 * By creating an article on Jukić? Of course not, that would be preposterous. GregorB (talk) 16:24, 22 October 2014 (UTC)


 * But the hook merely repeats what is already said in the article. You needn't be worried about this. GregorB (talk) 17:50, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Hello again!

I'm done with Il Regio Dalmata. I've also reviewed Jeff Banister. I suppose everything is clear now for the new double hook.

Unfortunately I'm likely going to be away from wiki for a while, starting tomorrow, so I won't be able to assist you with the nom - sorry about that. I don't expect problems with Il Regio Dalmata. The Jeff Banister review needs to be finalized after the QPQ has been completed. Surely will chip in should the need arise. GregorB (talk) 22:34, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Conduct issues
Hi! I'll be happy to respond. Here is my feedback:
 * 1. I say it's not a POV fork because it's not about presenting an alternate theory or point of view. Unless Mexicans in Houston is to be treated as a "POV fork" of, say Mexicans in Texas. It's about factual content. Content_forking seems to refer to points of view. Skookum never presented any source which explicitly stated: "There is no distinction between Sikhs in Vancouver and Sikhs in the rest of BC, there are the same". It is based off of his own Original research feelings about the subject from personal experience. Therefore it is not reasonable to talk of a POV fork. There is none. There is a quasi-content fork (the specific article came first) but not a POV fork.
 * 2. I will admit I was feeling frustrated at that moment (The bit about the "mistake that I've implied I'm from India" is NOT meant to be sarcasm from me, though - There was a time when he earlier guessed I was of Indian origins and I failed to correct him at that time). Perhaps I should not have adopted the tone. No, it did not come out of nowhere. It came out of this discussion: Wikipedia_talk:Canadian_Wikipedians'_notice_board - The moment Skookum said: "Maybe you should read up on all this before opining about what sources may or may not say; and it's as if you're asking/demanding that such an article be created, without doing so yourself....or even really knowing much about the subject in regional terms to start with." - Follow the discussion after that point and I hope you understand why I felt frustrated. I felt extremely frustrated when I was told I had no right to comment on the issue or edit because I [don't know] about the subject and that I'm not from the area. As a non-Indian Texan I have the same right to comment on and edit the article as an Indo-Canadian from British Columbia and I am just as capable of writing the article. If an editor tries to imply that only he/she may comment on this because of his/her background while not bringing up reliable sources that is going to make me feel that he/she is not regarding the emphasis on published sources.

WhisperToMe (talk) 12:11, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * 3. OTHERSTUFF in fact can be an appropriate argument. From Arguments_to_avoid_in_deletion_discussions:
 * "Yet a small number of debates do receive wide participation and result in a decision that is effectively final, until new evidence comes along. If you reference such a past debate, and it is clearly a very similar case to the current debate, this can be a strong argument that should not be discounted because of a misconception that this section is a blanket ban on ever referencing other articles or deletion debates."
 * Since I was referring to three previous deletion debates about the same thing, I think it is appropriate to say Wikipedia has precedents. I stand by my use of OTHERSTUFF in this debate.
 * 5. Re: "my desire" - It is a suggested solution from me to help resolve the issue and reduce the bad tempers in this discussion. It is not meant to be demeaning towards you.

"that merge discussion"
Man, he calls white black, picks things out of the air he claims endorses his position, and spouts claims like "people want...." as if that weren't specious OR. See here and I'm trying to withdraw; the division from the main national article is now fine, due to his "further reading farm" and obsessive linking and stitching now piecing together a fairly large article; but I CAN'T live with his pretension that Greater Vancouver and British Columbia be treated as separate subjects/contexts. I won't quote his nonsense further but it goes on and on again, relentlessly; from the first diff I noted that indicates the two subjects are intertwined (by way of the comparison made between urban and "smalltown" contexts) he would say that validates his from-afar [personal] judgement. This needs sanction, I don't want to get drawn into an ANI over this, the behavioural problem is HIS and as a "Young Adult" (see his userpage) he needs to be disciplined and dressed down. AND, in my sincere opinion, he should have his adminship withdrawn. His self-authored and rather massive articles (in the Greater Vancouver case) need major weed-whacking, and he's stitching together so many quotes he's only just found that there's no way there's no SYNTH going; he's advancing a thesis on the talkpages, and reinforcing it by writing the article in voluminous bulldozery..... and continues to be a patronizing jackass with no actual logic or common sense, only specious rationalizations as to why he won't yield. This isn't collaborative work, it's one-man thesis-writing and a clear attitude of WP:OWN towards all this creation.

You are the one "merge" vote so far, what should have been merge votes is now walls of texts/cites by him to "bury the opposition"; Canadians are all a but uptaken because of this week's events in Ottawa, not that wikipeople in other provinces ever show much interesting in BC topics....most BC Wikipedians who I've known over the years have withdrawn from Wikipedia long ago because of juvenile nonsense in combination with wiki-bureaucracy being so frustrating....I've left a few times but have been encouraged and pleaded with to come back, due to my years of good work on BC/Canadian and Pacific Northwest history subjects and conscientious maintenance editing; and don't need to be insulted and patronized by someone about my own province and home who's never even been to the place and only discovered this subject in the last two weeks. Lord knows I've been harshly disciplined for far less than this kind of behaviour; his making of the "in BC" article was a deliberate affront to me and my recommendations. He's just a kid in Texas with a snotty attitude about his judgements/interpolations (SYNTH and OR) and now is using weasel-word justifications"..... "some people etc.......Please understand". Oh, I f*******g understand all too well when I"m being treated as a know-nothing by a nobody.Skookum1 (talk) 08:23, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * There's lots of geographical and terminological erros he's make, partly because he's unaware of certain wiki-realities e.g. re Metro Vancouver vs Greater Vancouver, which result from sources not using the right terms; much more could be said about that but I've taken up enough of your time...and he's taken up far too much of mine. I'll try and get some long-needed articles done instead of continuing to listen to his selfish babble any further; before I get too frustrated once again, as before, with Wikipedians who don't listen to reason, or who stonewall to get their way.  His adminship should be pulled - and knowledge and logic tests should become part of the admin-making process; and puerile sillinesss be dealt with accordingly, along with the use of "no original research" to justify rejecting informed/expert local input.  I'll try and focus on something more meaningful than his crap; thte artificial division he's created, and his specious justifications for his own agenda are just too tiring to bother screwing around with any longer.Skookum1 (talk) 08:29, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

October 2014
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DYK for Paškal Jukić
— Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:03, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

1879-1880 in Plav and Gusinje
Should we merge these articles?


 * Battle of Velika (1879)
 * Battle of Novšiće
 * Battle of Velika (1880) ("Battle of Murino")

What about Battles for Plav and Gusinje?--Z oupan 08:09, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

WikiCup 2014: The results
The 2014 WikiCup champion is, who flew the flag of the Smithsonian Institution. This was Godot13's first WikiCup competition and, over the 10 months of the competition, he has produced (among other contributions) two featured lists and an incredible 292 featured pictures, including architectural photographs and scans of historical documents. , 2012 and 2013 WikiCup champion, came in second, having written a large number of biology-related articles. , WikiCup finalist every year since 2010, finished in third.

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November 2014
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 * Орахова (из повеље краља Владислава ко)ом 1242. поклања црмничко село Орахово Врањинском манастиру ; ...}}
 * '' lands. {{cite book|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=RG4jAQAAIAAJ|quote=Владислав (1238) {{red|&#93;}} е имао печат са натписом „Стефан Владислав крал» свих рашких земал {{red|&#62;}} а". Назив „рашка земл {{red|&#62;}} а" био {{red|&#93;}} е у титулатури и за време Уроша I.|title=Атлас старе Србије: европске карте Косова и Метохије|isbn=

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Usourced flag
It appears that the flags of the Kastrioti and the L. of Lezhe (with knives and helmet) is nothing more than original research (in fact its the artistic product of a user in commons). I wonder why such a flag stayed more than a year in the correspodent articles.Alexikoua (talk) 17:56, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that it can be removed from commons, it's just an artistic product, although unrelated with any historical image. On the other hand this is not an excuse do warrant an inclusion in historical articles.Alexikoua (talk) 14:43, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Reversions by socks
Hi AD. I saw you kept being reverted by socks all over the place. Please see Sockpuppet investigations/RcLd-91 for more details. Feel free to revert them back now that they are blocked and tagged. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 23:51, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CIV, November 2014
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Speedy deletion declined: Χουμνικό Σερρών
Hello Antidiskriminator. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Χουμνικό Σερρών, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: A page that contains foreign-language content is not eligible for A3. Thank you. Jackmcbarn (talk) 19:09, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

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DYK for Baiounitai
— Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:14, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

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DA
Hi, If you have time, can you improve the David Albala article... perhaps with other language references? If you're busy with other things, no worries. --Rosiestep (talk) 20:55, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Oh, wow! I didn't know about the ban. I hope everything gets back to normal for you soon. No worries about the DA article. P.S. If you need my help with anything, just ask... --Rosiestep (talk) 05:17, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Nominations for the Military history Wikiproject's Historian and Newcomer of the Year Awards are now open!
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Labs
Interesting topic. I can provide information on that. As for the map you pointed, I don't think it's the best we have (apart from non-rs). Especially about the regions in nw Greece, this one appears more accurate (Lab is limited in some villages near Konitsa and not in the rest of Epirus).Alexikoua (talk) 07:22, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

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getting along :)
Regarding contents at WikiProject Geopolitical entities not recognised as states, all of my actions were made in good faith in response to an earlier title that I considered to be in no way neutral. I don't see that there is benefit in getting into public dispute. Please consider whether your actions fit within WP:wikilawyering and WP:hounding. My User talk page was available and yet you placed contents that I consider to be irrelevant on a public thread. It would be appreciated if we can work through things amicably. GregKaye ✍ ♪  16:16, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

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DYK for Feriz Beg
 Harrias  talk 12:01, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CV, December 2014
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DYK for Derbendcis
 Harrias  talk 00:01, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

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Books and Bytes - Issue 9
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DYK for Mrkšina crkva printing house
Harrias talk 12:02, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

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DYK for Belgrade printing house
The DYK project (nominate) 00:49, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Interview for The Signpost
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Please comment on Talk:Mexicans of European descent
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The Bugle: Issue CVI, January 2015
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August 1914 map
Hello Antidiskriminator. I plan to create a map of Albania in summer 1914, but I can't find desent references, especially about the area of the Islamic/peasants revolt, as well as of the country's northern regions. Thus, I wonder if you can suggest me a number of reliable references. Thanks in advance.Alexikoua (talk) 21:31, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Ana
Hi! Caan you proof the translation hidden in Ana Simonović and improve it?♦ Dr. Blofeld  20:34, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Not happy that you're excluded from editing all topics post 1900. I know Serbia and that region can be a hotbed of dispute at times but through I know you're generally a decent productive editor. I think wikipedia is missing out on a lot of decent neutral content because of this. Whoever banned you I think it would be worth opening a post requesting some modification to it and lifting the ban from at least a few topics which are unlikely to cause many problems. I think it's ridiculous that you can't simply proof a Serbian translation on a standard politician. Not productive for the encyclopedia.♦ Dr. Blofeld  10:44, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

So who banned you and where's the discussion/consensus?♦ Dr. Blofeld  15:33, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Abraham Lincoln
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Hieromonk Mardarije
Hello! Your submission of Hieromonk Mardarije at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! -- Gourami Watcher  (?) 15:28, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Lugnuts' "lifting" of your topic ban
For your own sake, I don't think you should rely on Lugnuts' action as being a bona fide lifting of the ban. BMK (talk) 22:49, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks . I knew that.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:51, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Big Bottom massacre
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DYK for Julije Balović
— Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:57, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Chris Kyle
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Battle of Sisak
Hello This is Ximei Yang here. May I ask if I can translate your edition of the Battle of Sisak in Chinese? Probably I will put the translation on both Wiki and Chinese website with your permission. Thank you very much. Sincerely Ximei Yang — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ximei Yang (talk • contribs) 13:43, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Re: Dečani chronicle
No problem, I'll do it tomorrow hopefully. GregorB (talk) 20:40, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Done, or at least I hope so. Corrected spelling and grammar and also did some style tweaks. GregorB (talk) 18:48, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

An invitation to join the WikiProject Republika Srpska
--Anulmanul (talk) 21:51, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:2 May 2014 Odessa clashes
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The Bugle: Issue CVII, February 2015
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Please comment on Talk:Columbia Township, Lorain County, Ohio
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DYK for Dečani chronicle
&mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  beans  // 12:02, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

WikiCup 2015 March newsletter
That's it, the first round is done, sign-ups are closed and we're into round 2. 64 competitors made it into this round, and are now broken into eight groups of eight. The top two of each group will go through to round 3, and then the top scoring 16 "wildcards" across all groups. Round 1 saw some interesting work on some very important articles, with the round leader owing most of his 622 points scored to a Featured Article on the 2001 film Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within which qualified for a times-two multiplier. This is a higher score than in previous years, as had 500 points in 2014 at the end of round 1, and our very own judge,  led round 1 with 601 points in 2013.

In addition to Freikorp's work, some other important articles and pictures were improved during round one, here's a snapshot of a few of them:
 * took Bumblebee, a level-4 vital article, to Good Article;
 * worked-up the Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 article, also to Good Article status;
 * developed an extremely timely article to Good Article, taking Magna Carta there some 800 years after it was first sealed;
 * And last but not least, worked up a number of Featured Pictures during round 1, including the 1948 one Deutsche Mark (pictured right), receiving the maximum bonus due to the number of Wikis that the related article appears in.

You may also wish to know that The Core Contest is running through the month of March. Head there for further details - they even have actual prizes!

If you are concerned that your nomination—whether it is at good article candidates, a featured process, or anywhere else—will not receive the necessary reviews, please list it on WikiCup/Reviews. Questions are welcome on Wikipedia talk:WikiCup, and the judges are reachable on their talk pages or by email. Good luck! If you wish to start or stop receiving this newsletter, please feel free to add or remove yourself from WikiCup/Newsletter/Send. , and

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WikiCup 2015 March newsletter
That's it, the first round is done, sign-ups are closed and we're into round 2. 64 competitors made it into this round, and are now broken into eight groups of eight. The top two of each group will go through to round 3, and then the top scoring 16 "wildcards" across all groups. Round 1 saw some interesting work on some very important articles, with the round leader owing most of his 622 points scored to a Featured Article on the 2001 film Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within which qualified for a times-two multiplier. This is a higher score than in previous years, as had 500 points in 2014 at the end of round 1, and our very own judge,  led round 1 with 601 points in 2013.

In addition to Freikorp's work, some other important articles and pictures were improved during round one, here's a snapshot of a few of them:
 * took Bumblebee, a level-4 vital article, to Good Article;
 * worked-up the Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 article, also to Good Article status;
 * developed an extremely timely article to Good Article, taking Magna Carta there some 800 years after it was first sealed;
 * And last but not least, worked up a number of Featured Pictures during round 1, including the 1948 one Deutsche Mark (pictured right), receiving the maximum bonus due to the number of Wikis that the related article appears in.

You may also wish to know that The Core Contest is running through the month of March. Head there for further details - they even have actual prizes!

If you are concerned that your nomination—whether it is at good article candidates, a featured process, or anywhere else—will not receive the necessary reviews, please list it on WikiCup/Reviews. Questions are welcome on Wikipedia talk:WikiCup, and the judges are reachable on their talk pages or by email. Good luck! If you wish to start or stop receiving this newsletter, please feel free to add or remove yourself from WikiCup/Newsletter/Send. , and

Thanks for your assistance! Miyagawa (talk) on behalf of Wikipedia:WikiCup.

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DYK for Battle of Kunovica
Harrias talk 21:42, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Pope Joan
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Books and Bytes - Issue 10
 The Wikipedia Library Books & Bytes

Issue 10, January-February 2015 by, ,

<div style = "margin-top: 1.5em; border: 3px solid #ae8c55; border-radius: .5em; padding: 1em 1.5em; font-size: .9em"> Read the full newsletter MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:40, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
 * New donations - ProjectMUSE, Dynamed, Royal Pharmaceutical Society, and Women Writers Online
 * New TWL coordinator, conference news, and a new guide and template for archivists
 * TWL moves into the new Community Engagement department at the WMF, quarterly review

Principality_of_Gjirokastër
It's been a long time and it appears there is a concensus on this. Feel free to make the merge.Alexikoua (talk) 20:29, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks . I will try to do it as soon as I catch some time, which I don't have much these days. I just now noticed that the consensus was not 100% so maybe it would be better that some admin close this discussion? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:04, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

List of wars involving Albania
It appears there is an issue with the use of Albanian flags in the pre-1870s conflicts. Since you are an expert on the subject you might shed some light on this. Thanks in advance.Alexikoua (talk) 20:31, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:António de Oliveira Salazar
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Please comment on Talk:Winnipeg
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Invitation


Hello, Antidiskriminator,

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Thank you, Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:12, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch
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The Bugle: Issue CVIII, March 2015
The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here. If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. Your editors, Ian Rose (talk) and Nick-D (talk) 09:36, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Spanish Civil War
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Sabahudin9 sock puppetry
I believe you'd have interest in commenting this issue... I just noticed that you initiated an earlier investigation against Sabahudin.

--Yerevani Axjik (talk) 20:34, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Palestinian stone-throwing
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A new reference tool
Hello Books & Bytes subscribers. There is a new Visual Editor reference feature in development called Citoid. It is designed to "auto-fill" references using a URL or DOI. We would really appreciate you testing whether TWL partners' references work in Citoid. Sharing your results will help the developers fix bugs and improve the system. If you have a few minutes, please visit the testing page for simple instructions on how to try this new tool. Regards, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:47, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Hieromonk Mardarije
<b style="color:#00cc33">Harrias</b> talk 08:04, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Hegumen Mardarije
<b style="color:#00cc33">Harrias</b> talk 08:04, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Fremantle Prison
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Please comment on Talk:2015 Libya migrant shipwreck
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I was not aware of the guidelines and it was pointed out to me.
I was not aware of the guidelines before and it was pointed out to me.

The comments were made before those guidelines were made known to me. I have ceased and will follow the guidelines, the same way that all should follow the guidelines on wikipedia.

Resnjari (talk) 10:58, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

History of Serbian printing
Just wanted to link --Z oupan 07:26, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much. It is very interesting source.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:24, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:United Synagogue
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The Bugle: Issue CIX, April 2015
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Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Places in Bangladesh)
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WikiCup 2015 May newsletter
The second round one has all wrapped up, and round three has now begun! Congratulations to the 34 contestants who have made it through, but well done and thank you to all contestants who took part in our second round. Leading the way overall was in Group B with a total of 777 points for a variety of contributions including Good Articles on Corona Borealis and Microscopium - both of which received the maximum bonus. Special credit must be given to a number of high importance articles improved during the second round.
 * was one of several users who worked on improving Ulysses S. Grant. Remember, you do not need to work on an article on your own - as long as each person has completed significant work on the article during 2015, multiple competitors can claim the same article.
 * took Dragonfly to Good Article for a 3x bonus - and if that wasn't enough, they also took Damselfly there as well for a 2x bonus.
 * worked up Alexander Hamilton to Good Article for the maximum bonus. Hamilton was one of the founding fathers of the United States and is a level 4 vital article.

The points varied across groups, with the lowest score required to gain automatic qualification was 68 in Group A - meanwhile the second place score in Group H was 404, which would have been high enough to win all but one of the other Groups! As well as the top two of each group automatically going through to the third round, a minimum score of 55 was required for a wildcard competitor to go through. We had a three-way tie at 55 points and all three have qualified for the next round, in the spirit of fairness. The third round ends on June 28, with the top two in each group progressing automatically while the remaining 16 highest scorers across all four groups go through as wildcards. Good luck to all competitors for the third round! , and  16:21, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Books and Bytes - Issue 11
<div style = "color: #936c29; font-size: 4em; font-family: Copperplate, 'Copperplate Gothic Light', serif"> The Wikipedia Library <span style="font-size: 2em; font-family: Copperplate, 'Copperplate Gothic Light', serif">Books & Bytes

Issue 11, March-April 2015 by, , ,

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 * New donations - MIT Press Journals, Sage Stats, Hein Online and more
 * New TWL coordinators, conference news, and new reference projects
 * Spotlight: Two metadata librarians talk about how library professionals can work with Wikipedia

Please comment on Template talk:World War I infobox
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Alil aga
Hi the lede in Alil aga reads ” either ordinary Turkish name or Çandarlı Ali Pasha”. I couldn’t get it. Can you please be a bit more specific ? Thanks. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 19:38, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
 * , the text should explain historical background of the Alil aga. The source says: "Alil aga was, provided that it was not some ordinary (common, random chosen - my understanding of the wording) Turkish name, Turkish vizier at the time of the Battle of Kosovo".--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:21, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Handegg
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Clarifications and additions done in Persecutions of Ottomans article
It was quite time consuming when i wrote most of that part of the article on the Morava/Toplica area and i remember i did it very late at night, so an error of that kind was going to occur. Thanks for correcting it. I also added a few more needed sources about other number estimates and moved a few sentences that you placed on population movements in the area that deals with the larger picture of population movements regarding the area. I also placed Batakovic back. He is a prominent Serbian historian and his book the Kosovo chronicles have been influential in Serbian historiography. See the changes and additions. Suggest more if you think are needed. I got access to the material.

Best

Resnjari (talk) 06:58, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me, What ? "which includes giving undue weight to irrelevant Albanian nationalistic mythology about autochtonous Illyrians does not leave much space for assumption of good faith."

Your comment is very problematic to say the least. I outlined the Albanian position since you felt the need to put the Serbian for such matters. The view written is what Albanian historiography states. I was outlining their position. Note i wrote Albanian historiography in order to state that the position is theirs. And note also i wrote in the first sentence that there are divergent views to outline that. Ask youself why would one write that if they were to use you accusative tone POV pushing? As wikipedia policy states we are not here to interpret or editorialize the sources. Your accusation of POV is very problematic. I could have made the same same argument with Serbian historiography who states that Albanians are "settlers". Jagodic uses Serbian sources to make that claim. That claim has been part and parcel of Serbian nationalist thought which is still alive and kicking today regarding Albanians and has been used to justify all sorts of violence. You wrote the sentence as if it is undisputed fact, instead of outlining other viewpoints and stating that thier are others. The reader must get a sense of all points of view do they not. What privileges your sentence as being fact (unsourced mind you, funny as i had to put Serbian sources for that also which you seem to have deleted.)? I in the previous edits felt it was best to go down that road as the large article in general deals with persecution of Ottoman Muslims and only to deal with that matter, but since you felt that it was important to state that "After Albanians settled Kosovo they began to inhabit wider Toplica and Morava regions in the second half of the 18th century." what was i to make of that. Trust Jagodic and take that one face value when there are other positions about the Albanian presence in Toplica/Morava. It why i then wrote it as i did. Either this sentence is removed also (which mind you you have not referenced) or the rest comes back up. This sentence "After Albanians settled Kosovo they began to inhabit wider Toplica and Morava regions in the second half of the 18th century."

When you made that edit, i could have stated what you said to me, but i took it as good faith. That is the Serbian position. It is not the only historiographical position. It being on its own when there are other positions is POV pushing. I know the policy. Believe me, i have learned a lot from experience. I know how this works now. Either it gets deleted or the other stuff needs to go in. Serbs sources are not the only sources. What privileges them over others? I am very interested as to what your reply about will be ?

Also Jagodic writes:

"The Albanian refugees (Turk. muchageers) were mostly settled in the Lab region and in the north of Kosovo, next to the new Turkey-Serbia border52. The Serbian population from Lab had moved to Serbia during and after the war in 1876 and then the Albanians inhabited their villages"

Your sentence: "Most of Albanian refugees were settled in the region of Lab and other parts of northern Kosovo. Serbs from Lab moved to Serbia during and after the war in 1876 so Albanians populated their vilages.<ref name=Jagodic1998/.>"

Since you refer to about being precise one your sentence omits the important words "next to the new Turkey-Serbia border". I included that in my sentence:

"Sizable numbers of Albanian refugees were settled in the Lab area and other parts of northern Kosovo alongside the new Ottoman-Serbian border. "

Why because the reader may infer that Albanian where resettled all over northern Kosovo. And considering that the recent conflcits were about claims of setting and so on, its best to clarify, is it not?

Also, why did i not write most for the Lab resettlement. Because in Sabit Uka's material, he states and gives a very detialed list, settlement by settlement and family by family in villages where they are today in Kosovo. Most of these refugees are in those 30 villages and in the cities. In the Lab region, they are much smaller in number. Jagodic does not even bother to clarify this he states Most for the Lab area, and then again "Most" for the 30 settlements. Which is it with Jagodic ? The refugees where "mostly" settled in Lab or the 30 villages ? Uka clarifies. Moreover, the inclusion that sentence in the above area. Why? that area only discusses numbers. Population movements is at the last paragraph. Are you POV pushing again? The article is talking about Ottoman Muslims not Serb refugees, and it being there out from the population movement section does not make sense. Clarify so i can be convinced that your not POV pushing.

~ Resnjari

What ? Red handed ? What is this ? Are you now some kind of law enforcement officer. Your Orwellian talk is interesting. I hope this is not because i am of Albanian heritage. There is a long history of this kind of Albanophobic view of catching them "red handed" and so on. I focused on the sources. When i wrote this, it was late at night. It was hard as i condensed Jagodic. Again i am trying to converse with you in good faith, per Wikipedia policy on dispute resolution, yet your dismissive language and "interesting choice of words" seem to put into question your credentials about being about Anti-discrimination. Your may call your self that, but you must also embody its principles and not cherry pick what you want. Wikipedia says to work with the sources. You accused me of promoting Illyrian mythologies. I did not. If i did, one i would have deleted what you wrote about the "settlers" and two, i also would not have sourced it. What i wrote is on history deletion page now. But please, make my day with this accusation of yours. You know how i wrote it, and it gave due attention to all sides. Others too can judge whether your accusations suffice. You may not like me or whatever. Regarding your claim of "Albanian nationalist mythology of victimized autochtonous Illyrians is irrelevant for 1876-1878 events." No i did not and this is what i wrote just in case you missed it:

"As with Kosovo, there are a number of divergent views regarding the historical presence of Albanians within the region. Serbian historiography holds that Albanians settled Kosovo and began to inhabit the wider Toplica and Morava regions in the second half of the 18th century. Albanian historiography maintains that the Albanians of the region are autochthonous and descendants of the ancient Illyrians. Whereas in the field of linguistics, some Western scholars also postulate that in the early medieval period, Romanians and Albanians lived in close proximity at one time in the area of the Morava valley."

Now i ask you to please point out how i am advancing "Albanian nationalist mythology of victimized autochtonous Illyrians is irrelevant for 1876-1878 events". Your accusation is problematic and very importantly i did not conflate the events of the late 1880s with Ilyrians in the sentence. Your unsubstantiated accusations are concerning that your not treating this issue with a seriousness and care that states you are being sincere about these issues. In my edits, I specifically point out that one there are "a number of divergent views". Why, becuase i want to be in line with wikipedia policy on neutrality. Its why i then also wrote, "Serbian historiography holds" followed by "Albanian historiography maintains" followed by "Whereas in the field of linguistics" and the word "postulate" which indicates a hypothesis, an assumption in an academic sense. No position is outlined as fact. Each are treated as they are. Yet for some reason these views according to you are to be deleted and we are only to keep the sentence "After Albanians settled Kosovo they began to inhabit wider Toplica and Morava regions in the second half of the 18th century." because the Serb view always comes out first. Let me quote to you wikipedia policy regarding neutrality Neutral point of view:

"Prefer nonjudgmental language. A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject (or what reliable sources say about the subject), although this must sometimes be balanced against clarity. Present opinions and conflicting findings in a disinterested tone. Do not editorialize."

Which is what i have done.

"Indicate the relative prominence of opposing views. Ensure that the reporting of different views on a subject adequately reflects the relative levels of support for those views, and that it does not give a false impression of parity, or give undue weight to a particular view."

Which is what i have done. After Albanians settled Kosovo they began to inhabit wider Toplica and Morava regions in the second half of the 18th century.

Unless you can tell me why one the way you have written that sentence and why it should stand (when it is but one viewpoint and not being POV) and that it is not POV. If you continue with this i will have no other choice but to take this to the next level and seek outside dispute resolution. We are not about pushing agendas, here.

~

~ Resnjari

Continiued. (previous reply might not have come up.)
What ? Red handed ? What is this ? Are you now some kind of law enforcement officer. Your Orwellian talk is interesting. I hope this is not because i am of Albanian heritage. There is a long history of this kind of Albanophobic view of catching them "red handed" and so on. I focused on the sources. When i wrote this, it was late at night. It was hard as i condensed Jagodic. Again i am trying to converse with you in good faith, per Wikipedia policy on dispute resolution, yet your dismissive language and "interesting choice of words" seem to put into question your credentials about being about Anti-discrimination. Your may call your self that, but you must also embody its principles and not cherry pick what you want. Wikipedia says to work with the sources. You accused me of promoting Illyrian mythologies. I did not. If i did, one i would have deleted what you wrote about the "settlers" and two, i also would not have sourced it. What i wrote is on history deletion page now. But please, make my day with this accusation of yours. You know how i wrote it, and it gave due attention to all sides. Others too can judge whether your accusations suffice. You may not like me or whatever. Regarding your claim of "Albanian nationalist mythology of victimized autochtonous Illyrians is irrelevant for 1876-1878 events." No i did not and this is what i wrote just in case you missed it:

"As with Kosovo, there are a number of divergent views regarding the historical presence of Albanians within the region. Serbian historiography holds that Albanians settled Kosovo and began to inhabit the wider Toplica and Morava regions in the second half of the 18th century. Albanian historiography maintains that the Albanians of the region are autochthonous and descendants of the ancient Illyrians. Whereas in the field of linguistics, some Western scholars also postulate that in the early medieval period, Romanians and Albanians lived in close proximity at one time in the area of the Morava valley."

Now i ask you to please point out how i am advancing "Albanian nationalist mythology of victimized autochtonous Illyrians is irrelevant for 1876-1878 events". Your accusation is problematic and very importantly i did not conflate the events of the late 1880s with Ilyrians in the sentence. Your unsubstantiated accusations are concerning that your not treating this issue with a seriousness and care that states you are being sincere about these issues. In my edits, I specifically point out that one there are "a number of divergent views". Why, becuase i want to be in line with wikipedia policy on neutrality. Its why i then also wrote, "Serbian historiography holds" followed by "Albanian historiography maintains" followed by "Whereas in the field of linguistics" and the word "postulate" which indicates a hypothesis, an assumption in an academic sense. No position is outlined as fact. Each are treated as they are. Yet for some reason these views according to you are to be deleted and we are only to keep the sentence "After Albanians settled Kosovo they began to inhabit wider Toplica and Morava regions in the second half of the 18th century." because the Serb view always comes out first. Let me quote to you wikipedia policy regarding neutrality Neutral point of view:

"Prefer nonjudgmental language. A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject (or what reliable sources say about the subject), although this must sometimes be balanced against clarity. Present opinions and conflicting findings in a disinterested tone. Do not editorialize."

Which is what i have done.

"Indicate the relative prominence of opposing views. Ensure that the reporting of different views on a subject adequately reflects the relative levels of support for those views, and that it does not give a false impression of parity, or give undue weight to a particular view."

Which is what i have done. After Albanians settled Kosovo they began to inhabit wider Toplica and Morava regions in the second half of the 18th century.

Unless you can tell me why one the way you have written that sentence and why it should stand (when it is but one viewpoint and not being POV) and that it is not POV. If you continue with this i will have no other choice but to take this to the next level and seek outside dispute resolution. We are not about pushing agendas, here. ~ Resnjari

Accusations do not suffice
I don't know why my account seems to be having issues all of a sudden, but your accusations do not suffice. I don't care about the Albanian Ilyrian matter, its a theory, not myth. I did infer this when i said that its a point of view, not fact ! Lets avoid POV words, please. Same with the "settlers" claim. I did note there are divergent views and they are contentious and you know that. Also where does it say in wikipedia that i cannot have a thorough discussion? I want to talk it out. Also, Jagodic stated all that and that is fine. He also used those same Serbian sources to state that Albanians are "settlers". Those sources discussed the then situation.. The things about Albanians being "settlers" was a position they took. They were not there when the settling took place now where they? And today there are divergent issues. That is fine, but there needs to be the inclusion of other view points or deletion of your sentance. If you did not like the wording then we could have worked on it. You keep making personal attacks upon my person and i don't know why you keep persisting. As for the 1992 source, Batakovic is a Serbian historian and that is what he states. I use Jagodic as no other Serb author has challenged him about the process of the 1978 events. In Serbian historiography this event is acknowledged that it happened, only numbers are disputed (and we have placed a large array of divergent number have we not?). So i am not cherry picking. However the matter of an Albanian presence and its origins are? Why are those other views not important to be stated? If that sentence stands so should the others, as per the policy of neutrality on Wikipedia. This is how the social sciences and humanites works. It analyses all sources and mentions those viewpoints. Wikipedia stresses the same. If you find the words "authochtonous" a problem then we can remove it (i used it because the author and many others use that in their text. Same with Serbian texts, they use the word "settlers" for the Albanian presence. Hey, take it up with them not me) Again i never said that's my view and i tried to present all views. Albanians say what they say and Serbs theirs. But why is the Serbian view privileged, but others are not? Please i would like to know ?

"That information is unquestioned by scholars"

Prove it, prove that that is thee only uncontested view out there. The settler view is is onne advancced by Serbian national interests in the nineteeth and twentieth centuries. Noal Malcom gives great detials of that. You remeber that scholar and book. Is he someone with an agenda. Agian, i don' care about the Illyrian theory, but when you refer to someone as settlers, and it have been challenged, it need sot be there. SSo you have an issue with the Albanian source, why delete Fine for. He states that some linguistics believe the Morava region was the contact zone for Albanian and Romanian speakers ? Please indulge me on that one ? Is Fine peddling some kind of to use your Personal attack words "Albanian nationalistic Illyrin authochtonous victimisation mythology" ? There are many words one can call the settlers matter. However unlike you i don't do POV. Resnjari

~ Resnjari

I am glad you have reminded me of wikipedia policy and the same counts for you. Your edit warring and your divisiveness shows a disregard for wikipedia and its policies. You only pick and choose what you want. The Serb position is ot the only position or privileged view on the matter. Wikipedia dispute resolution states that a third opinion could be sought. Again i engage with you in good faith and your sentence about Albanians being "settlers" can stand if other scholarly positions are there. If not it is POV. I added John Fine, a reputable academic to the section. He is a credible historian and outlines a position that is held by some in the academic linguistics community regarding an Albanian presence in the area. If it is good enough for the origins of the Albanians article to be there (which you edit and have no issue with it being there), then a section that deals with Albanians and the Morava valley and considering he discusses that in his text should be there. I wonder what your rationale will be again. But please continue with your dismissiveness and personal attacks. I am starting to notice that your claim of being about anti-discrimination is all a farce when you come across someone that irks you (not sure if its because i am of Albanian heritage?). Your delightful commentary is all on my talk page and your spin of it too. There are procedures as you would know about dispute resolution and a third party opinion will be needed if your intransigence continues. I have tried to explain to you that a sentence stating about "settlers" on its own is problematic being on its own, if other positions are not there. If we don't call it a Serb or Albanian position fine i am very ok with that. But John Fine's contribution needs to be there as it relates direct to content. ~

~ Resnjari

May 2015
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The Bugle: Issue CX, May 2015
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I edit in good faith
The sentence of my edit was based upon this section within Fine's book (below is the passage. In bold are parts of the section on which i based the edit upon). I wrote the sentence as "The other is that Romanians and Albanians lived in close proximity at one time during the early medieval period in the area of the Morava valley." which basically condensed this whole section (pages 10-11.) If you can come up with a better sentence, go for it. But we do it in the discussion page of the article. Again i avoid saying Illyrian and i keep it simple. By the way early medieval period refers to it as starting from the time of the collapse of the Roman Empire and the era of invasions. And Fine cites the invasions and that time period. The sentence is in keeping with the sources. I have in no way distorted them. As Fine states, the findings of Georgiev, a Bulgarian linguist(i have not come accross anywhere that says he was pro-Albanian, if anything Albanians have been hostile to him) about the Morava valley and Albanians and other matters are "are serious (nonchauvinistic) arguments and they cannot simply be dismissed." So they should be mentioned there also in a article that talks about Albanians of the Morava valley, in particular the first sentences about their presence there. Again its why i wrote "a scholarly position". Unless Georgiev is not a scholar or there are issues with his scholarship (if there are, please point out a source). As for "your disruptive actions connected with Persecution of Ottoman Muslims and your comments in which you try to imply ethnicity based motives to my editing". Your insistence of the sentence about settlers without wanting to consider at least this source led me to believe that your edit was not in good faith. The use of the "Albanian settler" argument in Serbia was one of the reasons for past actions of mass violence by the Serbian government against Albanians many years ago. You must understand that is has been used as a tool to undertake and justify violence. The sentence i have written encompasses what Fine wrote. If you have a better alternative, lets talk it through. If you still have a issue with that i would gladly have a outside third opinion take a look at it and if i am in the wrong then so be it, but if it said that the Fine sentence is in keeping with the source than why can't it be there. If Romanians is the issue then fine, i will delete that. But i included Romanian because of the symbiosis argument made in Fine. And i am glad you have quoted wikipedia policy and yes i have followed it. Whether or not you want to edit the article is not my concern. I wish you still did. Your added input made it read better. Anyway, i wish you the best. To bad you took things differently. By the way i do speak Serbian, read and can write (to an extent) and i don't have anything against Serbs. I wish Serbs could speak, read and write Albanian also. Cross cultural learning is a good thing. Anyway below is the Fine passage on Georgiev (in bold are bits i have based the sentence on:

"Recently the Albanian-Illyrian identification has come under more Serious challenge from linguists. Before turning to the arguments, it must he pointed out that Dacian, Thracian, and Illyrian are not only dead languages but languages in which no texts have survived. Thus all that is known about these languages comes from personal and place names mentioned in classical texts or surviving place names (toponyms). V. Georgiev argues that Illyrian place names are found in a far smaller area than I have given above for Illyrian settlement. Secondly, he argues that, though the Albanians now live in what was Illyria, they themselves come from part of Moesia, from the Morava region of eastern Serbia. This was ethnically a Dacian region and thus he argues for a Dacian ancestry for the Albanians. These conclusions, he believes, are shown by the following: (1) lllyrian toponyms from antiquity do not follow Albanian phonetic laws. (2) Most ancient Latin loanwords in Albanian have the phonetic form of East Balkan Latin (i.e., proto-Rumanian) and not West Balkan (i.e., Old Dalmatian) Latin, suggesting the Albanians were descended from the Dacians. (3) The marine terminology in Albanian is borrowed from different languages, suggesting that the Albanians were not originally a coastal people. (4) Few ancient Greek loanwords exist in Albanian; if the Albanians had originated in the Albanian-Epirus region there should be more. (5) There is no reference in any source to Albanians in the Albanian region until the ninth century. (6) Roughly one hundred Rumanian words are similar only to Albanian words, and when this fact is combined with the similar treatment of Latin in Albanian and Rumanian. Georgiev concludes that the Albanians came from what is now Rumania (or the region of Yugoslavia close to modern Rumania) and that their language developed during the fourth to sixth centuries when proto-Rumanian was formed. Rumanian he sees as a completely romanized Dacian-Moesian language whereas Albanian is a semiromanized Dacian-Moesian language. '''These are serious (nonchauvinistic) arguments and they cannot simply be dismissed. Furthermore, during the fourth to sixth centuries the Rumanian region was heavily affected by large-scale invasions of Goths and Slavs, and the Morava valley (in Serbia) was a main invasion route and the site of the earliest known Slavic sites. Thus this would have been a region from which an indigenous population would naturally have tied.''' However, very little is known about the Dacian and Illyrian Ianguages—and that little consists chiefly of certain place names and a few historical personal names. The Albanian language could well preserve large numbers of Illyrian features that simply are not known to linguists. The two languages, Dacian and Illyrian, may have been more similar than linguists think. And since the Morava region was near the border between Dacians and Illyrians, through direct contact possibly Illyrian was influenced by the Dacian language.' The lack of early references to the Albanians is not significant. The centuries before the ninth are a period of few sources. And, if the Illyrians were proto-Albanians, the argument does not stand because sources mention IIlyrians there earlier. We should also note that Vlachs are not mentioned anywhere in this period either."

Resnjari (talk) 12:05, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

"Please be so kind not to clog my talkpage with the Greater Albanian nationalistic Illyrian authochtonous victimisation mythology based on blatant source misinterpretations."

Don't worry this is the last reply. I don't do nationalism and my edits point to that. My citing of Fine is not nationalism. The source speaks for itself. That your accusing the (non Albanian and peer reviewed Western) academic source of that says a lot about you regarding the matter. For someone who likes to take out the Wikipedia policy book often, i'll remind you that the comment you left again on my talk page is a personal attack. I never have subscribed to those views, and you pinning that upon my person is a blatant personal attack. One the page in question i outlined the generalized Albanian position and in case you missed it specified as such. I did not state that the Albanian view was the one. I placed it in context with other positions on the matter. You then with your personal attacks of "red handed" and so on have proved very unsettling for me in my edits. However i have tried to engage with you in good faith and attempted to discuss this with you, as per dispute resolution wikipedia policy. Instead all i have gotten is your pejorative accusations. Your "settlers" sentence though without giving at least discussion of even the Fine academic source points to something else. Any third party can have a look and make up their minds on that. I got nothing to hide. It is your view that my edit is source "misinterpretations". In good faith, we can have a third party look at that, if you want. However, you did not even follow Dispute resolution policy but continued with your "Illyrian authochtonous victimisation mythology" personal attack. Again I urge you to stop with such personal attacks as i feel very offended by your behavior. I should also state that you may come across other Albanians on this website, some maybe from Kosovo and they may take great offense to your inappropriate and frankly pejorative language. I do not live in Yugoslavia, and yet your personal attacks of "red handed" and so on reminded me of what i have Albanians heard from Albanian who lived under Tito used to be accused of. You must work with the sources, and examine the sources and if there are issues talk calmly about them on a person's discussion page or the article discussion page, but do not engage in personal attacks as per wikipedia policy and escalate the situation. That's all. Again i wish you the best. Resnjari (talk) 14:50, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

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