User talk:Ararat arev/Archive1

Armenian history Ararat arev

Mitanni
This is all amazing, I mean look at Hayasa-Azzi right? You look there it says there is no clear history about them if they were Hurrian speaking? Right? Well, hmm??? Can you not consider this powerful point? Specially at the same time as Mitanni-Hurri?? Also like i said its based on this whole Ancient Egypt connection that you seem to not grasp what im saying here. Forgot my tilds Ararat arev 19:41, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

We still use "Hur" Fire and "Jur" Water. Let me give you an example when we say waterfall its "Jr"vej and when we say volcano its "Hr"apogh again that Hur and Hr and Jur is Jr. There is many example man. Look you also didnt respond about the Mitanni names that are clearly Armenian. Look at the other names "Good Sun" Bartarna? or Partarna which is the Lebana-Hye's way is with P Pari looys. Bari looys meaning good (Bari) And the other one Shutarna translated on the Mitanni page as "Great Sun". Mitanni kings like Artatama says "most righteous" which is the Armenian word for righteous is Arta or Artar, third is Tusratta says it means "ten chariots" Tus is Ten in Armenian again. The "Ar" part is even there again meaning Sun or Light or Fire. Like Arev, Ararat, "Ar"menia, Arpi, Areg, etc etc. Ararat arev 19:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

All the evidence is there that "Hurri"-Mitanni is an Armenian kingdom at that time and yes we also went to Egypt. Like i said the movie "The Egyptian" go rent it to see for yourself they speak Armenian in the movie some of the people there showing that at that time Mitanni was there. The Phaorah's time is of those that Mitanni went and married with. Also as I said before if you look at Mitanni's page you see there about Mitra was already there. As you know dont tell me you dont know Garni's temple of Mitra ??? I mean Mitra was that old since Mitanni which is even sounded like Mitra which is obviously from that name. Another thing which is amazing is that that historian mentioning Mitanni coming from Armenia in the 17th century invading Syria Indo-European descent or Indo-Aryan is just the most powerful point on the Mitanni page. You have to either be ignorant or you just dont want our nationality as Armenians to clear our true rich history. Ararat arev 19:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * So the word Hur which isn't even used anymore other than in the female name Huri could be derived from Hurrian. So what? Vartan is an Iranian/Indo-Aryan name that only survives in Armenian. So what? Half of modern Armenian names are of Iranian origin including Tigran, Artashes, Karen, Suren, Mher, Vahan etc.--Eupator 19:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Another thing I forgot is the word "Hurri" or "Hur" means Fire in Armenian did you know this? Do you speak Armenian or only English?? Also "Jur" is Water just as "Hur" is Fire. Bro let me show yuou something else onthe Mitanni page you see where at the bottom they transalated the names of the Mitanni king? Be amazed bro first of all "vartana" is there which the name Vartan is from, second, the names of the Mitanni kings like Artatama says "most righteous" which is the Armenian word for righteous is Arta or Artar, third is Tusratta says it means "ten chariots" Tus is Ten in Armenian again, I'll put more in the next message.Ararat arev 19:31, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

One of the main things I see in this whole ignorance is that you dont like Egypt and it seems you dont want to realize that Armenian's at some point in our history we were there and we actually influenced them on a lot of things such as architecture, writings, astronomy, etc etc. Ararat arev 19:35, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

. Serouj 22:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

That's not where to start figuring out about Mitanni being Armenian's first of all because its about our culture, faith, and language which they were clearly related to the (Hurrian Indo-European)=Aryan or Hurian however you wnat to say it its the same word "Hur" "Ar" as I said for light, sun, fire. Its based on the other bedootoon's of Armenia's history the other kingdoms and states which was Hurrian/Aryan like Hayasa and the later Urartu kingdom. Nairi if you notice again I said earlier the Akkadian or Assyrian the same Semitic speaking people referred to us by Nairi or Naharina same thing land of rivers which Armenian Highland is Tigris and Euphrates the land of rivers. Also I know you have to know about the root word "Ar" like Aratta, Ararat, Arev, Arpi, Areg, Armenia, Armeni, Armens, etc etc. Ararat arev 22:36, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

No, Ararat Arev, that's plain garden variety Hurrian out of a genuine hurrian document, no less, and most certainly is not Armenian. But since you claim that Hurrian is Armenian, you ought to be able to read that. If you'd like it in the cuneaform syllabery, it's "un-du-u-un Ma-ni-e-na-an še-e-ni-iw-wu-ú-e pa-aš-ši-i-it-hi" Thanatosimii 05:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Not to mention you forgetting to read the armenianhighland.com Monarchy section ?? Also I told you the kings of Mitanni's names are Armenian words just as Egyptians used there names for their words. Like Artatama "most righteous" Artar and Tusratta means "ten chariots" Tus is Ten in Armenian. Look at the Mitanni page Im not making these words up. The word vartana is there too. And no they were not Indo-Aryan they were Indo-European and if you know these terms were used later it was the original "Ar"yan word which is coming from Armenian Highland Ararat or Aratta. "AR"Ararat arev 22:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

You didnt read armenianhighland.com and its not just Gevork its almost every Hye budmabun asoom eh vor "Hurri"Mit[r]anni'n Hye bedootoon er. Yev shat yev shat bajarner zooyts en dalees ays. Mitra temple at Garni bro is straigh out a good way to start explaining about this. And you keep forgetting to answer me on the Urartu and Hayasa kndeers (issue on this Hurrian issue) And you still dont grasp the "Hurri" or "Hur" word which I told you is Fire like volcano is "Hr"apogh and "Jur" is water like waterfall is "Jr"vej you noticed the harmony of the words??Ararat arev 22:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

And no they were not Indo-Aryan they were Indo-European and if you know these terms were used later it was the original "Ar"yan Ar-men (children or sons of AR) word which is coming from Armenian Highland Ararat or Aratta. "AR"Ararat arev 23:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Its about you mentioning we later became "Armenian" like around end of Urartu?? We are the cradle of civilization dont you see this? This recent 150 years has been lies about our history and vochichaznel.Ararat arev 23:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ararat_arev didnt you read my page ?? and armenianhighland.com and look at arevordi.blogspot.com meeteh do hye chess? Do mer budmootoon siroom es teh meenak Tigran the Great and on from there only?? What im saying is do you really want to know about our long history or just a short history?? Ararat arev 23:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC) You need to look and study about the time of Haik and the Armenian tribe "Ar-men"s and you will see and its in our ethnogenesis with Aratta which is Armenic Sumerians at that time. Todays Armenian words like kaitz, garoon, ap, etc etc are Armenic Sumerian words of that time still usedArarat arev 23:17, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at this: Mitanni is thought to have been a feudal state led by a warrior nobility of Indo-European or Indo-Aryan descent, invading the region at some point during the 17th century BC right??? Now look at this Historiography

Eusebius, writing in the early 4th century, quoted fragments of Eupolemus, a now-lost Jewish historian of the 2nd century BC, as saying that "around the time of Abraham, the Armenians invaded the Syrians". This may correspond approximately to the arrival of the Mitanni, since Abraham is traditionally assumed at around the 17th century BC. The Mitanni presumably entered northern Mesopotamia from Armenia. Now compare those 2 and also you see the "See also" of Mitanni has Hayasa at the first link Ararat arev 23:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC

Yup, I am one of those people that erase our history. You wanna talk on this page? It's easier.

The Armenian position is a minority position. We can't state a minority position as a majority. And we can't state any position as fact (unless all agree).

I have made a welcome edit at the top of the page--usually some regular user welcomes a new one. Read the 1st 2 links there (the 5 pillars, and the one after it). The five pillars is very important. Also, read the links that are on the 5 pillar page. Just take your time, spend a few hours, and you will understand the rules better. That's what I did when I joined.

Now, when you add to this or my talk page something, don't add it as a new discussion--it makes it very long. Just add your statements by editting one of the small discussions themselves. So every time you write something, don't click on the + sign. --TigranTheGreat 10:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

And it will be better if you don't put pictures in your edits. They make pages load slowly.--TigranTheGreat 10:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Copyrights
No, Arev, you cannot use images by just saying "Gevork Nazaryan armenianhighland.com copyright © 1997-2006". Wikipedia doesn't want to host copyrighted images. Every time you edit, you see this warning in big bold letters: '''Do not copy text from other websites without permission. It will be deleted.'''. Every time you upload an image, you see this warning in big letters and a red box: '''Do not upload images found on websites or on an image search engine. They will be deleted.''' (For exceptions, see Fair use and Free image resources.) We are serious about this. I don't understand why you need me to point this out to you personally, just read the instructions please. dab (𒁳) 11:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you dab I told Jkelly about it. Ararat arev 18:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

A copyright notice is necessary, but not sufficient, for proper image sourcing. If you want me to take a look at some individual image, let me know. Jkelly 17:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't understand what you are asking me. Are you looking for images to illustrate a particular article?  If so, it would probably be easiest to point me to the article.  Jkelly 18:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok that part you put Copy right image should i Put my ? image there? Ararat arev 18:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I take it that we are discussing this image. What is it?  A crest?  We need to know the image's creator (the artist who drew that design), and what its licensing terms are.  You indicated, apparantly, that it was used "by permission", but you did not indicate who owns the copyright to it and what the licensing terms are, so the image is in danger of being deleted from our servers.  You need to give significantly more information about images you upload in order to use them.  You should read (not add any images to, but read) Image use policy, Copyright, and the other pages linked to above.  Jkelly 19:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

this one is also an artifact from Urartu times. And this one Ararat arev 19:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I forgot to say yes, they are drawn also from the artifacts. Ararat arev 19:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Same with all those other ones I'll let you know of them some are the same drawn from Historic Armenian sites like the fortress picture. Ararat arev 19:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * That's a good start... but I'm unclear on something. Is the line drawing a modern drawing, or is it a reproduction of something from the fifteenth century?  If the design is from the fifteenth century, we should just make our own copy of the design, and then we would not have to worry about copyright at all.  Jkelly 20:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

It is drawing of that symbol which is a cylinder impression of Mitanni King. It has been drawn and outlined and used in G. Contenau's book which is a 19th century book so no problem there in terms of copyright. Below you see the original royal seal as the winged sun disk with King Saussatar holding two lions.

KING SAUŠŠATAR [c. 1440-1410 BC] WITH THE SACRED ENCIRCLED 8-SPOKE WINGED SUN DISK ON THE OFFICIAL MIT[R]ANNI ROYAL CYLINDER SEAL. THE SUPREME MITANNIAN DEITY OF LIGHT, REASON, TRUTH AND ULTIMATELY REDEMPTION WAS MITHRAS THE HEALER AND SAVIOR. THE SOLAR EAGLE/PHOENIX [PHOENICIA COMES FROM PHOENIX AND SYRIA'S ANCIENT MITANNI NAME IS HUR[R]IA [HUR LIT. FIRE] SYRIA CONNOTES SIRIUS...CARRIED OVER FROM ARMENIAN HIGHLAND-MITANNI-DILMUN-ETIN-EDEN TO EGYPT BY THE NETJERU OR THE ELDER GODS OF ZEP [SEP] TEPI/FIRST TIME/GOLDEN AGE...] AND LION WAS INCORPORATED INTO THE COAT OF ARMS OF RA. Ararat arev 20:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Email permissions
Email permissions need to be sent to permissions@wikimedia.org -- sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Jkelly 22:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok I emailed to permissions of her approval. What about the other artist pictures from Gevork he approved also so can they stay since some I noticed you allowed which is also from Gevork. So some from him like the lion drawing or Haldi on the lion you dont seem to approve? Ararat arev 23:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for uploading Image:Armenian-Alphabet1.jpg. However, the image may soon be deleted unless we can determine the copyright holder and copyright status. The Wikimedia Foundation is very careful about the images included in Wikipedia because of copyright law (see Wikipedia's Copyright policy).

The copyright holder is usually the creator, the creator's employer, or the last person who was transferred ownership rights. Copyright information on images is signified using copyright templates. The three basic license types on Wikipedia are open content, public domain, and fair use. Find the appropriate template in Image copyright tags and place it on the image page like this:. If you have not already done so, please also include the source of the image. In many cases this will be the website where you found it.

Images
We got mail from the photographer, but the mail said only "You can use them", and did not specify a license. We have asked for clarification and are awaiting a response. There's nothing more I can tell you at this point. When we get a response we can add the correct license template to the image. Jkelly 02:06, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Valid Images
Please specify the copyright information and source on any other images you have uploaded or will upload. Remember that images without this important information can be deleted by an administrator. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me, or ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. cohesion 09:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I got your message regarding valid images and description. Im working on getting all the images to be valid on your site. Please give me time I just created my account also few days ago. As you see a few other ones I worked on and found the valid info. Thanks. Ararat arev 10:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem, the images are done by a large group of people, so some of them may be deleted, once you find the correct info though you can always reupload them :D - cohesion 05:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok thanks. Ararat arev 05:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Armenian-Alphabet1.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Armenian-Alphabet1.jpg. The image has been identified as not specifying the copyright status of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the copyright status of the image on the image's description page, using an appropriate copyright tag, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided copyright information for them as well.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:
 * Image use policy
 * Image copyright tags

This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. 06:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Copyright problems with Image:Mitanniseal.jpg
An image that you uploaded, Image:Mitanniseal.jpg, has been listed at Copyright problems because it is a suspected copyright violation. Please look there if you know that the image is legally usable on Wikipedia (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), and then provide the necessary information there and on its page, if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Interiot 17:10, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Image:Armenian-Dance4.jpg
I'd just like to confirm that the owner or creator of the image did release all rights to the image rather than simply giving you permission to use it- the two events aren't the same, as releasing rights would also give people permission to take the image from Wikipedia and use it elsewhere without the owner's permission. Just wanted to double-check. Please respond on my talk page. --Moralis 22:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Assuming you meant "no rights reserved" ;) Thanks for the quick answer. --Moralis 22:37, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, I never had any intention of removing them. I just wanted to be sure that they were in fact given to you with "no rights reserved" rather than simply permission for use. Having confirmed that, your images are safe =P thanks for your time. --Moralis 22:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Archiving.
Archives are subpages to your talk pages. To create one, first create a link to one. For instance, User talk:Thanatosimii/Archive 1 is my archive. if I wanted another, I would do User talk:Thanatosimii/Archive 2. Then I would click the red link, which would take me to a page to create a new page. I'd then insert my old discussions into the archive and delete them from my main page, leaving only the link to the mainpage, which I would write as Archive 2, which would appear as Archive 2. Your link would be somthing like Archive 1. However, your current topics are a little too fresh to archive, and your page is still a little short. Wikipedians don't always work as fast as you do, and you may well get return comments over the next few days. You shouldn't need to archive until at least a week of inactivity. I've had some that were months old still on my talk pages. Don't worry until you pass 100 or 150 kilobytes or so, and at least a few weeks pass by. Thanatosimii 02:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Please do not add inappropriate external links to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a mere directory of links nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Inappropriate links include (but are not limited to) links to personal web sites, links to web sites with which you are affiliated, and links that exist to attract visitors to a web site or promote a product. See the external links guideline and spam policies for further explanations of links that are considered appropriate. If you feel the link should be added to the article, then please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. See the welcome page to learn more about Wikipedia. Thank you. CRCulver 23:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok Thanks, I'll read this. Ararat arev 02:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Dacy's edit
I don't really know enough about Armenian history to say if he/she was right or not. Quite frankly, I don't really care. Try working it out with him/her. Khoikhoi 04:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok but does that mean you let her edit and have it stay? Ararat arev 04:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * What's wrong with letting it stay? Khoikhoi 04:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

You just said you dont know about Armenian history so you wont understand. She/he is trying to remove more than half of our history. Ararat arev 04:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, you asked me why, so I answered you. Like I said, just try resolving the problem with the user. Khoikhoi 04:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Reply
Ararat, I'm going to ask you to assume good faith. The policy contemplates the extension of courtesy and good will to other editors on the assumption that they, like you, are here to build an information resource with a neutral point of view based on reliable, verifiable sources. Calling other people "enemy", "ignorant", and their edits vandalism violates WP:CIVIL. I cannot semi-protect the page because what you are Dacy are in is called a "content dispute".

Try leaving some comments at Talk:Armenia. This time try to be more respectful. Thank you, Khoikhoi 04:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I understand Khoi did you read my message on your Talk page? I said TigranTheGreat the Wiki Armenia Project member knows these events. These are not the first time you've seen this happen havent you seen ? If you havent ask Tigran he has for sure seen this happen before. We are talking about 1000's of years of our history. Ararat arev 05:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I know Tig. I'm also going to ask you to stop spamming Dacy's talk page. It's very annoying to see the "you have new messages" sign pop-up every two seconds. Make comments at Talk:Armenia instead. Thanks, Khoikhoi 05:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Im not talking to that person anymore. I also let Narek know as well. Do you know Narek also? I let him know also about this. Ararat arev 05:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I know most of the Armenian editors. However, instead of trying to stop other users from editing, what's so hard about compromising? Khoikhoi 05:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Compromising what? You mean to show the person that he/she is false? You think the person will agree? Of course not. Tigran and Narek are quote aware of this. Dont you see its one of thoes cases again that is not valid and its false. Ararat arev 05:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, I think you should try to assume good faith. It's not our job as Wikipedians to try to present what we see as the truth, but present all different views on a certain subject. I have to ask you, do most scholars say that the Urartu and its people were identical to Armenians? If so just, cite reliable sources. Maybe we can rephrase things so all involved parties are satisfied.


 * And yes, I know about the genocide. But I don't think however that you should use it as a precedent to not negociate with other users. BTW, all new comments should go at the bottom of the talk page. Khoikhoi 05:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

You personally want to know also? :) Good. There is a lot to learn about it first you need to know that Hurro-Urartu connection and the scholar hear specificlly explains that Hurrian-Aryan is the same.

Look at my page here is just one of them:

The great Indo-European and ancient Near East scholar Vyacheslav Ivanov.

Look in Hurrians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrians

Now look down there in External links it has

http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/pies/pdfs/IESV/1/VVI_Horse.pdf

Once you get there search Hurrian-Aryan and you will see it stands for Mitanni and the scholar explains it all in detail. And Aryan is the same as Indo-European. He explains all this there. Ararat arev 05:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I'll check it out. Khoikhoi 05:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's just not the way most users do it. It's more confusing when you move people's comments around like that. Khoikhoi 05:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I was trying to eat. Anyways, are you talking about this? Regardless, Semi-protection policy states that "Semi-protection should not be used as a response to regular content disputes, since it may restrict some editors and not others". That's Wikipedia policy and I have to follow it. Khoikhoi 06:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Re:Vahan Kurkjian and other Historians
I have no idea exactly what you're trying to argue. Nonetheless, you under no circumstances can say somthing as matter-of-factly as calling the kings of Mitanni "Armenian Kings." It's misleading at best and false at worst. What you do not seem to understand is that the last known stop of a nomadic people before settling down does not necesarrily indicate the racial and ethnic affiliations of a people group. It has long been held that the Hurrians moved out of Armenia, but in the same breath it has been stated that they probably came from somewhere north of the Caspian sea, where the rest of the nomads seem to have come from. "The Peoples of the Hills" by Burney and Lang says they passed through the caucuses, and Roux's "Ancient Iraq" says their culture obviously passed from out of the caucuses in the area called armenia, but Burney and Lang, and even that book you sent me, "A History of Armenia" by Vahan M. Kurkjian, differentiates between Armenians and members of Urartu (Hurrians), and won't say armenia existed until the fall of Urartu. You're misinterpreting clear data in your own sources. What you think helps you in fact outrightly debunks you. Thanatosimii 20:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Armenia didnt exist "after" the fall of Urartu. Thats what we were known as "Armeni"a". Actually Persians still refer to us as Armeni which is from the "AR" word again the root word which you dont grasp. So these discussions still need to go on until its clear. Look at the Armenia history and Haik section the "Armens" and the Akkadian references to us as "Armeni". Like I said this discussions will go on until its clear. I will also have more historian references coming soon not that I need to know that but for you. You seem to just want historian references only. Ararat arev 20:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

You know about the Turks right? They say the same thing you said just now about Armenia didnt exist before fall of Urartu. Are you seeing what they are seeing or ?? Are you agreeing with the Turks understanding? Also, if you look at the site here "History of Armenia" its not from 500 BC or 600 BC but 2492 BC of Haik and on from there and it its before but like I said we will discuss those. There was no gap from Haik to Mitanni and Hayasa those 1000 and so years?? This is what its about we will clear this up about our history and mention about Hyksos (Haykazuni's). I will get references and show you this is not a one day thing. It takes time Ararat arev 20:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I have to say this again cause you dont seem to grasp it still. The "wording" "Armenia" didnt exist before 600 BC ok?? The Armenian ethnogenesis (We were 'Armens' the tribe during Haik and if you read carefully in Vahan's writing you see even 2nd century we were Armens) or people or nationality or tribe whatever you want to refer to it by?? Did exist all those 1000's of years. I mean its the Armenian Highland the place of the Mountain Ararat and Aratta. You site even mentions the oldest place of civilization and yes rebirth of nations after the Ice Age (flood) Ararat arev 20:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Haik In the epic, Haik is a chieftain of the Armens, an Armenian tribe, and leads them against the invading forces of Bel of Babylon. On August 11, 2492 BC I need your response bro. I need to know what you think of your own site here. Also look at History of Armenia Whats this 600 or 500 BC you are saying man of our nationality? Of our culture ? Of our heritage?? Ararat arev 20:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

One, the fact that turks argue for what all my (and guess what, all of your) reliable sources argue on this issue is totally irrelevant because that's an ad-hominem. You can't dismiss the arguement for any reason having to do with the arguers. Two, as to your point, "You seem to just want historian references only," You finally seem to get it. Wikipedia's rules state that we should only use peer reviewed expert published sources when avalable, and in this case, they most definitly are avalable. Those are all that are allowed to be used as per the rules. Three, the fact that several words have used the two letters "Ar" is meaningless to the historian. All you've got there is one consonant. I still haven't got a clue what you're trying to do with this word, but it really doesn't matter because a single consonent whose morphological value is lost in the deep recesses of the ancient past is totally irrelevant to the philologist. Four, the existance of the Armenian race is not the object of dispute. They obviously existed, but there is no evidence that they ever created a pre-urartu political system, so you can't call Mitanni "Armenian." Finally, although I hate to pull this card, I have been formally given some training in Egyptology, and although I'm still a student, when I look to the right, I see four books which would say that the Hyksos were semitic caananites. If I look behind me, I will see two more, and if I look on my bookshelf to my left, I see three more. I know of the theory that the Hyksos were Hurrians, but the overwhelming evidence for the last century has been that they were caananites. Trust me, you need better sources. Thanatosimii 20:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Wish I had your patience Thanatosimii...--Eupator 21:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes see thats all you want and we will do that it doesnt work overnight it will take time. It will happen just wait. Our long history will be cleared. This recent tragedy of Armenian's is part of the cause of this not being clear of our history.

Unsolved problems in Egyptology: What was the origin of the Hyksos? Who were their first leaders? Hyksos section and also this will be with references also Ararat arev 21:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It isn't "my" site, and I can only vouch for articles I have written or edited. However, I have sources which will vouch for the statement that Armenia the political entity did not exist before the fall of urartu, and that urartu was not an ethnically armenian kingdom. One of them is the one |which you gave me. As for the Hyksos, other wikipedia pages are not legitimate sources. Books are. That isn't an unsolved problem. Thanatosimii 21:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course there are sites that would say Armenia didnt exist before Urartu. Who said that wouldnt be. There are sites or information for all people's History that are like this. Even your people's History which I dont know your nationality but Im sure you know there are people that change your own History to to suit there own needs. I will get the references and we will discuss more on this History of Armenia issue. It takes time I told you dont think its overnight. Ararat arev 21:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

But like I said its done with references and I'll find out which references you seem to grasp and agree with. But, like i said all our historians, our Armenian historians and this is true, they all know of our long history from the time of civilization and the flood Mount Ararat etc etc. Aratta is part of our ethnogenesis and its in the Armenian Highland. Do you have friends that are Armenian? You know the name Armen right? Its a common Armenian name and like I said the tribe of Haik is Armens which is the same as Armen. Now if you have to go technical like this its useless to even talk so I just need to give you references. Ararat arev 21:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanatosimii it helps to have Armenian friends when Im explaining about our History. Ararat arev 21:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, there are precious few Armenians in minnesota. Regardless, I have solid collegiate books behind my position that Armenia did not exist as a political entity before the fall of Urartu. That means nothing for the ethnic armenian tribes running around, it simply means the hurrians and the armenians are different. As for your ancient legends, those are unsubstantiatable in preliterate societies. Thanatosimii 21:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

You don't know that for a fact or truth. You base it on what you've read and certain historians which I told you everyone doesnt explain the truth. There is something called lies and they tend to do as well. I mean like I said earlier everyone nations history has been one way or other also changed to be turned false. Ararat arev 21:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * You haven't got the authority to go around deciding who tells truth and falsehood. The historical extablishment has that authority, both concerning what is a reliable source for wikipeida purposes, and for life in general. If there are these things called lies, I am more inclined to believe that the ethnic polemicists are the ones doing it. In the real world, mainstream = the truth. Now, I have read your article, and indeed I found it teriffically facinating, just like the book you showed me. However, once again, it does not say what you think it says. Aryan in terms of mitanni refers to the indoeuropean ruling class which had technical indo-aryan roots, as proven by their worship of several indian deities: indra, mitra, nasatya, varuna, etc. (Personally, in my study of Hurrian authority, I might just add Shiva onto that list. Shiva may have been the original pronunciation of Shawushka, the hurrian name for Ishtar. But that's a whole other can of worms.) It does not refer to the Armenian Indo Europeans. The words it studies also do not prove relation; it clearly discusses words disseminating from caucasian languages into Hurrian over time, not actual relation. The English "desert" comes from the egyptian dSrt, but that doesn't make english related to Egyptian. Thanatosimii 01:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes I knew of those examples of words that are from ancient times used now by other that sounds a like. Its not just based on the words but actually culture plays a huge role in the heritage of a nationality. The Armenian dance heritage has been one of the oldest, richest and most varied in the Near East. From the fifth to the third millennia B.C., in the higher regions of Armenia there are rock paintings of scenes of country dancing. These dances were probably accompanied by certain kinds of songs or musical instruments. In the fifth century Moses of Khoren (Movsés Khorenats'i) himself had heard of how "the old descendants of Aram (that is Armenians) make mention of these things (epic tales) in the ballads for the lyre and their songs and dances. Ararat arev 01:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

As far as our history with references besides our culture to base we have a lot if you notice down at the bottom I put a list of them and there is more that will be added soon. As I said earlier its based on archelogical finds and inscriptions also. Ararat arev 01:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Egyptologists
I've quite honestly never heard of all three of those characters. Have they written anything besides anciliary, very specific works? What are their periods of expertise. I'm an 18th dynasty man myself, so I can't speak to them if they're not in my field. Oh, as to the other people you've quoted, I can't just go out and read what they write, so you'll have to quote things from them which support your argument, however it would be nice if you would at least try to reference one mainstream western scholar's claims for support. There is no mitannian archaeology to speak of, so all we can go off is the language and a bit of religion mentioned in hittite sources, and the three big experts in Hurrian are Speiser, Gelb, and Busch. There's a German man too. They would seem to say no to the armenian ethnic identification. Remember, we're not arguing against connection or intermingling, but we do not agree with the belief that Mitannians are the same breed of cat as Armenians, nor that the people in Mitanni ever ended up back in Armenia again. That's totally different from what you seem to be trying to argue against. Thanatosimii 01:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

No they did go back and thats why Hurro-Urartian is what is used for Urartu's people and kingdom which is ethnogenesis of our people. Did you also read about "culture" playing a huge role in finding about a nations heritage? Also Im suprised you havent heard of John Anthony West?? Go to google.com search for "Magical Egypt" he has tons of videos you know Google Video right? Also search for Graham Hancock in the Google Video section "In search for the Lost of Civilization Part 1-3" Do you want there links or you know how to find in google.com video section link? Ararat arev 01:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Just search for "Graham Hancock" and they will show up in google.com video. Listen man its even in Wikipedia search for Graham Hancock are you kidding me that you dont know them or heard of them? I think you're joking man.

I thought you're into Egypt. Also, John Anthony West mentions a lot of the 18th dynasty. Ararat arev 01:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)



I thought you might've missed this part since I made a new topic: The Armenian dance heritage has been one of the oldest, richest and most varied in the Near East. From the fifth to the third millennia B.C., in the higher regions of Armenia there are rock paintings of scenes of country dancing. These dances were probably accompanied by certain kinds of songs or musical instruments. Ararat arev 01:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Sir, I am formally trained in Egyptian history and hieroglyphics. Those three fellows I have never heard of before. This makes me suspicious that they're probably not formally trained. I'll look them up... Thanatosimii 03:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

grahamhancock.com and search in google for John Anthony West these men have been in the History channel and all those channels that have to do with Ancient History. Ararat arev 03:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I've read their bio's quickly. The first thing you need to realize is that the History Channel is almost invariably unscholarly. West and Hancock aren't mainstream and don't have peer revewed stuff. You need harder literature. Hancock has no training. West also holds crackpot views. Lehner seems to be a good scholar though, but what does he say? Thanatosimii 03:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I dont know sorry I'm thinking of something more important now. It appears that the user TigrantheGreat removed Mitanni from ethnogenesis. Do you speak with him? Ararat arev 03:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Historian Links
Դու աչքիս Պարսկահայ էս :)--Eupator 00:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm amazed at how you see our history. I mean you dont even speak like you read Armenia's section on this very site. How much do you know about Haik ? The Armen tribes of Armenia? "AR"men "AR"arat, "AR"atta 3rd millenium ethnogenesis yes course of Armenians. We didnt take anything from anyone they took from us from our land is where the rebirth and birth of nations came from. The garden of Eden the land of the 4 rivers the Mountain of "AR"arat "AR"arich elnoom ah Asdvatz menk eenk vor Asdvatzeen janachoom ayeenk. Menk eenk emanoom ays banner. Parseekner mezaneetz ayeen bajanvan. Thats why they have all this confusion with the term Indo-European which was later used the term was "AR"yan again coming fromthe root words AR. And I saaid before its not just from armenianhighland.com which he took 10 years to do and you havent read one sentence from his site. Its all our historians from Armenia even Persian Armenian Hovick Neressian which studied the Avesdan Ararat arev 00:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh gap oonee ?? Does it matter? Gevork from armenianhighland.com is from Hayasdan also Vacheek my cousin is from Hayasdan and he studied all the Armenain HistoryArarat arev 00:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Go meet Hovick Nersessian he studied all about the Persians and Avesdan and Zradashd he knows all about thisArarat arev 00:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * That's all great and funny, i'm just not interested in delusions of grandeur and absurd cultural appropriation. Try to separate fact from fiction and mythology from history.--Eupator 00:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Who says those that you believe are true? This is none sense we don't need to talk if you dont even know your own history bro? Ararat arev 00:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * My beliefs are irrelevant and I don't share them in public. As for history, I recommend you read a few objective studies of Armenian history instead of pseudo-scientific garbage like Armenian Highland. Start with Vahan Kurkjian's History of Armenia: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Asia/Armenia/_Texts/KURARM/home.html --Eupator 00:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Most of todays Armenian youth doesnt even know about Tigran the Great I mean forget the earlier history. They dont even know half of it. This is what points were trying to get across here man. Garevor ehArarat arev 01:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Hurri-Mitanni? Hayasa is Hurrian as well and Urartu Hurrian is the word "Hur" I told you this already and Mitanni is no different in faith, culture, language of later Urartu. Assyrian referred to Mitanni as the Naharina or Nairi which was later the Nairi tribe and yes I read that Armenian historian's site. It has a lot of information that is useful also for this encyclopedia. Do you watch Vardanank I guessing now and Im guessing Serouj doesnt either. Watch Vardanank if you're in Glendale or if he's in Glendale its channel 31 Vardanank Monday nights at 11pm. Every Hye Historian budmaban is on there they talk about our History from the time of the Garden of Eden till TigranArarat arev 01:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Listen you realize that the Turks and even Assyrians of today try to change our history and erase our history to correctly put it. If you fully realize what im saying you will realize to look into our more rich history and it does include Mitanni and Hyksos (Haykazuni dynasty) I just recently found this out bro few months ago I didnt know this either. I only knew of Haik from 2400BC and all the way to Tigran hahArarat arev 01:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

My References


Tigran I've made a list of references to Armenian History in my page. Please take time to read them. Thank you. Ararat arev 19:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Linking
Stop adding the same links in undue proportion across many articles. If you continue, you will be banned. And don't remove warnings on your Talk page, that will most certainly get you banned. Also, your User Talk page is meant to be a way for people to contact you, it is not meant to portray your own theories to the world. Move all of what's here now to your User page. CRCulver 13:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Im moving them. I told you Im new here. Ararat arev 18:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Reverts
I misread the "edit differences" page, and I was under the impression you were deleting the references. Looking again, I see now that I was mistaken. Sorry! -- Ritchy 20:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you bro :) Here is more references and please tell is Eupator your friend? He is acting foolish. He just removes my edits for not reason. Can you tell him to stop that ? E. A. Speiser, "Introduction to Hurrians," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.A._Speiser

"All indications point toward the general region of Armenia as a main area of Hurrian concentration." Ararat arev


 * I'm sorry, but I can't help you there. I do not know Eupator, I never heard of him until now. -- Ritchy 20:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

That's ok. Ararat arev 20:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Links
You are spamming with irrelevant external links and wiki links.--Eupator 20:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok you jsut added Mittani now. Well I think you're just now confusing Hurrians with the Mittani. The Mittani were in Syria. Hurrians were a general linguitic group spread across Anatolia and Mesopotamia. The Mittani were in Syria, being in Syria they have nothing to do with Armenia.--Eupator 20:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Why don't you add something like "Hurrian tribes lived in Armenia etc." and add your references. Forget about the Mittani.--Eupator 20:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

You are wrong read this -> Mitanni is thought to have been a feudal state led by a warrior nobility of Indo-European or Indo-Aryan descent, invading the region at some point during the 17th century BC and read the bottom of the page about coming from what is now Armenia Ararat arev 20:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

the Armenians invaded the Syrians". This may correspond approximately to the arrival of the Mitanni, since Abraham is traditionally assumed at around the 17th century BC. The Mitanni presumably entered northern Mesopotamia from Armenia. They came from Armenia read carefully the "Hurri-"Mitanni" came from Armenia Ararat arev 20:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I give up...do what you want...--Eupator 20:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

No bro, Listen I want you to understand. Is it clear now? I mean look at my page please bro? I found a lot of refences and historians explaining all this. Ararat arev 20:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Your historians are, sir, either misunderstood by you or total bunk! I have tried to be patient with you, but I am becoming exasperated.

"Yet the Hurrians did not disappear from history. Away to the North in their Armenian homeland, they entrenched themselves and build up the kingdom of Urartu" Of course Urartu is hurrian. Urartu is not, however, Mitanni. Mitanni faced mass deportations to Assyria. They did not retreat to Urartu to become a second kingdom; urartu is composed of their cousins. Even if Urartu gave partial birth to Armenia, that doesn't mean Mitanni contributed anything to Armenia, just like my father's cousin contributed nothing to my own genes. "The new kingdom of Urartu, which proved to be the stronghold of the Hurrian race" Same deal. Urartu=Hurrian. Mitanni=Hurrian. If Hurrian=Armenian, Mitanni does not necesarrily = Armenian. "The Hurri-Mitanni kingdom of Armenia kept close contact with its western neighbor, Hittite or Hatti land. Masses of population were often transplanted from one country to the other" This is quite simply out of date and wrong. He gives no justification for his identification of Mitanni as Armenian, and all mitanni scholars give ample, overwhelming reasons for an identification of Hurrian with a non-indo-european language. "Search Hurrian-Aryan and you will see it stands for Mitanni and the scholar explains it all in detail. And Aryan is the same as Indo-European. You do not understand your own sources. Hurrian-Aryan stands for the Aryan ruling class, which are overwhelmingly evidenced to be related to the indian group that replaced the Indus Valley civilization, not any generic indo-europeans. Specific, non-armenian indoeuropeans. I'm sorry, but I'm well read on this topic. You need to start reading some non armenian-pov-pushing books. Thanatosimii 22:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not the one who accused you of spamming. Eupator and I are not the same person. Please understand, early historians don't count. Greek histories are all invariably wrong for matters pre 700 BCish. You need to find a history of Mitanni or a Mitannian historian if you're going to go about trying to convince anyone that this is more than Armenian POV pushing. Thanatosimii 22:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Did you read the top of Mitanni ?

"Mitanni is thought to have been a feudal state led by a warrior nobility of Indo-European or Indo-Aryan descent, invading the region at some point during the 17th century BC.."

The name Mitanni was also referred as "Naharina" or "Nairi" did you know that ? Egyptians didnt call us "Mitanni" they called us "Naharina" or "Nhr" meaning the Armenian Highlands the land of rivers thats what it means actually. You see how many different names? We currently say "Armenia" and "Hayasdan" one and the same differnet names. Ararat arev 22:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

You need to consider thos points I just made also Mitra I told you is currently standing in Armenia's temple at Garni. The Mitra temple which you see Mitanni had the Mitra at that time. Ararat arev 22:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * You cannot direct me to other wikipedia pages for citations of your claims. Wikipedia is not a source unto itself. Sir, I read Egyptian, quite well in fact. Nhr is clearly in reference to Mitanni and not armenia, because nhr is places in the annals of Thutmose III as the land on the other side of the Euphrates. Nhr doesn't mean "land of rivers," it's "land between the rivers." i.e. the tigris and euphrates. Above all, Nhr cannot be renderd Nairi. As I have said before, these things you are quoting do not mean what you think they mean: "Mitanni is thought to have been a feudal state led by a warrior nobility of Indo-European or Indo-Aryan descent, invading the region at some point during the 17th century BC.." This does not make them Armenians. As for mitra, Mithras was a cult deity all over the roman empire for centuries. This no more makes Mitanni armenian as it makes them French. Now please: wait and post everything you think of at the same time. When I type my responses to you, it's impossible to save them if you keep changing the underlying page. Thanatosimii 22:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok you didnt "fully" understand what I said but ok, I know what we need to discuss now which is "Nhr" Naharina (Nairi). First of all you might not know much about Assyro-Akkadians referring to us as Nairi same thing as land of rivers which is the Armenian Highlands if you look at our History during Tigran the Great also he had all that region of Tigris and Euphrates from Syria to modern Armenia. I mean thats the Armenian "High"land you see? Its Nairi by Akkadian and Assyrian inscriptions which is the same language they spoke. They are the same Semitic people referred to us by Nairi or Naharin. Whats intersting is all the 'Semitic' people say that also Egyptians are Semitic also in a way so thats why they had that similar word "Nhr" its Nairi and its the "same meaning" ?? Whats the confusion you have here? Its referring to the Armenain Highlands I told you read about Tigranes the Great and how he took all that land into it was a Great Armenia time. Read also I said we today refer to our land as Armenia and Hayasdan to different names one and the same though Ararat arev 22:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

No, sir, Naharin is not Nairi. There is a logical problem which you seem to keep stumbling across. If all A are B and all C are B, all A are not necesarrily C. A) Nairi and C) Naharin may be cognate words, both derived from B)Nhr, but that doesn't make Nairi the same as Naharin, especially because Naharin is directly and immediatly across the euphrates river when traveling up from egypt. Thanatosimii 22:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

About posting. Don't do it all piece by piece. You frequently post long strings of edits one after another in quick sucession. Instead, do all your changes and typing in one shot. Thanatosimii 22:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

But I cant believe you ddont understand this Naharin (Nairi later way of saying it) are Nhr its the same thing man? Come on whats the confusion, bro Im going to find more about this and you will realize its the same. Playing around with this is none sense the truth will be shown soon I know Ararat arev 22:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Words evolve and change overtime its referring to the same place man. I told you "Armenia" and "Hayasdan" is the same place. These words changed a lot more also. Ararat arev 23:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Did you read about the Nairi? Our tribe after the Hurri-Mitanni and later Nairi formned the kingdom of Urartu. So Nairi was referring to the Armenian Highland which his the rivers Tigris and Euphrates. Nairi is currently used in Armenian as a female name. Nairi (Nhr Egyptians used for us) is the land of the rivers the land of the garden of Eden which is the Armenian Highlands. Ararat arev 23:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Sir, please try to listen again. I protest that Naharin and Nairi are the same thing, not their relation to Nhr. Naharin is clearly geographically placed by Egptian records as directly beyond the euphrates river. The book of Judges also indicates that Aram-Naharin is a moderatly close relative to Israel. Regardless of time of composition, this means that Urartu or beyond is too far away. If as you say nairi refers to the Armenian Highlands (and I am not in a postion to dispute that), that by necessity means that Nairi is not Naharin. Thanatosimii 23:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Sir, the garden of eden was placed at the place where the tigris and euphrates split in the far south of Iraq. And no, unless you plan on moving the kingdom of mitanni into the Aramean highlands, Naharin doesn't refer to armenia. Thanatosimii 23:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Garden of Eden is in the Armenian Highlands and so is the Flood on Mount Aratta (Ararat) which you cant disagree with this also?? We have in our cuneiform writings during Armenic Sumerian times before the Hebrews wrote in there books about the flood story. And I told you Urartu reached until Aram-Naharin whcih is the same Nairi word changed overtime slightly. Again you are not answering my statement of "Armenia" and "Hayasdan" is the same place different names we use. You see its also during Tigran the Great you need to read about which was around 60 BC we had even up to Lebanon as Armenian lands. So this is clearly beyond the Euphrates towards near Israel. Oh I just remembered even until Haifa which actually that name is from Armenians put that name there during that time of Tigran the Great around 60 BC the greatest Armenian power and most lands we had reaching in Israel also. Ararat arev 23:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Even before Mitanni the our Hurrian tribes were there earlier around end of 3rd millennium that region of Syria east of HIttites. Hitittes that were all the way towards west and south in Lebanon were also mixed with Armenian tribes. Ararat arev 23:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Your whole "Armenia" and "Hayasdan" is pretty irrelevant. Of course names change, but that doesn't mean that these names changed. You can't prove that hurrians were anywhere before 1700 and the mari letters. It cannot be done. Second, Aram Naharin does not reach into Urartu. Those are both Assyrian references for two neighboring regions. Third, absolutly I deny that the garden of Eden was in Armenia. The story explicitly says it was at the place where the four rivers split apart, i.e. in southern iraq. It's either there or nowhere. Thanatosimii 23:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Armenia Discussion
Ok I figured this out. Look at the map of Mitanni-Hurri's kingdom and you see they were in the Armenian Highlands. That is the Armenain Highlands ok? Nhr by Egyptians is Nairi I dont know how else to explain this the word evolved overtime. Hurri-Mitanni was not just in that region it was stretching near Lake Van deep in the Armenian lands. And as you know now look how small Armenia is ?? Armenia was not that small this is from the tragic ww1 events. Ararat arev 23:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't know how to explain this except that whatever source told you that Nhr went into mountains of any sort is sadly mistaken. Thanatosimii 23:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Mountains?? When did I "just" say moutains only?? I said Armenian Highlands yes, but that includes as I said you are ignoring my key points the rivers in our Armenian Highlands. I told you we had those rivers in our lands now Armenia is so small and its not even near there. Thats cause of ww1 I told you. Ararat arev 23:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Hurri-Mitanni was not just in that region it was stretching near Lake Van deep in the Armenian lands Ararat arev 23:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, rivers are in the highlands. However, Mitanni is restricted to the lowlands, to the mesopotamian plain. Sometimes they moved into the Antetaurus or Assyria, but they never really moved north. Mitanni did not reach lake van. They were destroyed because they never controlled the north, and that's how Supiluliumas snuck in. As for ignoring your arguments, that's because you're not making any. Just becuase things change does not mean that this changed. 23:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It was the same lands of later Armenian kingdoms Thana Ararat arev 23:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

This is not the only points ok? Of Nairi (Nhr) the land of "rivers" which is amazing you dont see this ? The Egyptians were referring to that land with rivers what dont you see about this? I told you almost all our kingdoms reached these rivers this is the "Armenian" Highlands not other "Other Nations name" Highlands. Ararat arev 23:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Naharin is clearly geographically directly and immediatly after the euphrates. It doesn't mean land of rivers, it means land between the rivers. Between the tigris and euphrates, south of Urartu. That is not historical armenia, that is not geographic armenia. I know that for a short period of time Armenia had political control to the medeterranian, but Armenia geographically does not pass the tigris. I read Egyptian. I know what it means. You clearly don't. Thanatosimii 23:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Look at the Armenia the second map there showing how huge the lands are reachig in Lebanon and Israel even with Syria (Assyria) etc. Ararat arev 23:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you consider this? And this takes more searching its not just based on you knowing Egyptian language. Ararat arev 23:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

My problem is not that I'm not open minded enough, it's that you're wrong and obstinate, without legitimate historical sources to back you up. I'm with eupator: my patience is exhausted; I give up on you. However, I will still maintain the historical accuracy of the pages on my watchlist, so if we meet paths again, remember to cite with better stuff. Thanatosimii 23:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I know you have to consider all the evidences and all the facts. You have to consider that Armenian ethnogenesis was there in Hurri-Mitanni kingdom. The Armenian tribes that are direct descendents of Armenians. The Hurro-Urartu are the same Hurrians which were from Armenia and we went to the western part of our lands which this is what you are not understanding the Egyptians "Nhr" Naharain (Nairi) etc etc. So the Hurrians were there and later Hurri-Mitanni kingdom started cause of this Armenian tribes there. So Hurrians went back to Armenia and kingdom of Urartu began. Ararat arev 23:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Your. Facts. Are. Wrong. Thanatosimii 23:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I dont remember telling you or not, search in google.com for Mitanni you get 'Naharina' next to almost all of them. I dont understand you, I mean 'Hurri'-Mitanni is the kingdom or tribes name. Hurrians were there you mean you dont see that ? Hurrians are clearly from Armenian tribes. So why dont you see Armenian tribes there in Hurri-Mitanni? Whats the confusion?

Jacquetta Hawkes, "The First Great Civilizations"

"Yet the Hurrians did not disappear from history. Away to the North in their Armenian homeland, they entrenched themselves and build up the kingdom of Urartu."

M.Chahin, "The Kingdom of Armenia,"

"The new kingdom of Urartu, which proved to be the stronghold of the Hurrian race." Ararat arev 01:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Map showing "Nairi" near Lake Van part of Hurri-Mitanni and (K)Hayasa is there also http://satrapa1.com/articulos/antiguedad/oriente/IIIperiodo/mitanni.jpg

This is clearly showing at the time of King Bartarna 1450 BC the beginnings of Hurri-Mitanni it already had the area around Lake Van. I mean that was there to begin with and then they stretched further west. Ararat arev 05:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Your images
Stop uploading untagged copyrighted images please. Tag all images you upload, in any case. If you upload copyrighted images, add a detailed fair use rationale. We will not host copyrighted images used by permission, per copyrighted, unless the copyright owner released them under the GFDL. I am tired of cleaning up after you (you removed my first warning without comment, too), it is time you learned to edit according to Wikipedia policy like everyone else. dab (𒁳) 09:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I dont understand what you're saying. Jkelly gave me the email "permissions@wikipedia.org" and I emailed to them the approval from Maral of the Armenian dance photos. Ararat arev 16:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Ararat, I'm going to go looking for the permission email in the OTRS queue when I have a chance. I'm sure we'll get everything sorted out, but, in the meantime, take it easy with uploading images.  Jkelly 17:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok thank you. This guy dab is making it sound like its totally not approved? Ararat arev 17:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Dab didnt put anything under some of the other photos. But this one is the most important and I emailed the approval to permissions@wikipedia.org and he puts some warning on it?? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Armenian-Dance4.jpg I need this one for our Culture page. Let's make sure we dont remove this. Thank you.

Can you please remove that Copyright warning on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Armenian-Dance4.jpg ? Thank you. Ararat arev 17:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Ararat, please email me the email address that you used to send the email to permissions, or any response that you might have gotten. I don't see anything in the permissions queue.  Jkelly 17:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok let me find it. And like I said its important http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Armenian-Dance4.jpg can you remove the warning. Thank you. Ararat arev 17:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It doesn't make sense to remove the warning until we know what license the image is released under, and what you pasted on my talk page does not tell us that. Please email me and include the photographer's email address -- I will contact them directly to work out what license that they are releasing the image.  Please, please do not put their email address on my talkpage.  Jkelly 17:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Did you get the email though? And your email is the permissions@wikipedia.org ? Ararat arev 18:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, thank you, I have now gotten the email address. I will follow up on this later today.  Jkelly 18:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Make sure you check the other email I had a typo. Ararat arev 18:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * heavens, arev, take it easy. Even if your image is deleted, and we later find it is GFDL, you can still re-upload it, no harm done. You'll just have to upload the same image twice, it's not the end of the world. dab (𒁳) 23:48, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok cause I dont know the wording was very like serious the way you said it. Ok. Thanks. Ararat arev 23:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Answers before I leave.
''I dont remember telling you or not, search in google.com for Mitanni you get 'Naharina' next to almost all of them. I dont understand you, I mean 'Hurri'-Mitanni is the kingdom or tribes name. Hurrians were there you mean you dont see that ? Hurrians are clearly from Armenian tribes. So why dont you see Armenian tribes there in Hurri-Mitanni? Whats the confusion? Ararat arev 01:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)''
 * Mitanni is in Naharina. Naharina extends from the Euphrates to the Tigris and stops right there. The kingdom's name is not 'hurri'-mitanni, it's just Mitanni. It was composed of ethnic Hurrians and ethnic Indo-Aryans. Of course hurrians are there. However, Hurrians are very clearly not in any way Armenian tribes. They are tribes that once passed out of armenia, but have no known ethnic relation to the group of people known as Armenian. For one, Hurrians are not indo-european, but some other unknown ethnicity. We don't know where the Indo-Aryans came from, but Armenia seems unlikely. The confusion is that you believe things that are false.

"Yet the Hurrians did not disappear from history. Away to the North in their Armenian homeland, they entrenched themselves and build up the kingdom of Urartu."
 * You are confused. You cannot concieve of anything but one monolithic indivisible people group. Hurrians were Mitannian. Hurrians were also Urartian. This doesn't make Mitannians Urartians. This statement does not mean that the Hurrians in mitanni went and became the hurrians in Urartu. They were different groups of Hurrians.

"The new kingdom of Urartu, which proved to be the stronghold of the Hurrian race."
 * Once again, this does not mean that Urartu was composed of the same particular hurrians.

''Map showing "Nairi" near Lake Van part of Hurri-Mitanni and (K)Hayasa is there also http://satrapa1.com/articulos/antiguedad/oriente/IIIperiodo/mitanni.jpg Ararat arev 05:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC) This is clearly showing at the time of King Baratarna 1450 BC the beginnings of Hurri-Mitanni it already had the area around Lake Van. I mean that was there to begin with and then they stretched further west.''
 * That map was blocked by filtering software on my network, so I'll have to take your word that it shows what it says it shows. That makes the map, not me, wrong. I am not some dolt who does history for kicks and giggles, I've heard all this stuff in classes and have read it over and over again in assigned books. Mitanni never posessed the area around lake van. The Khurri lands were up there (different hurrians), but mitanni was not. Not all Hurrians are Mitanni. Mitanni was well established in east syria between the rivers for centuries before 1450 BC. Hurrians were literate as early as 2200 BC, and settled en masse in Hanigalbat/aram naharin/south of the tigris by the 1800-1700 period. Stop throwing wrong information you've garnered off the internet at me. It's all false. Stop throwing books by comparative nobodies at me. They're false. Pay more attention when you get your hands on the real stuff as well, becuase it does not say what you think it says. My patience with you is exhausted. Thanatosimii 18:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Interesting you cant see the image? Hmm like I said the Hurrians came from Armenia and thats mainly near Ararat which is the east of Lake Van. North east since you get very technical. Another reference you probably didnt even look since its a "pdf" The great Indo-European and ancient Near East scholar Vyacheslav Ivanov.

Look in Hurrians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrians

Now look down there in External links it has

http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/pies/pdfs/IESV/1/VVI_Horse.pdf

Once you get there search Hurrian-Aryan and you will see it stands for Mitanni and the scholar explains it all in detail. And Aryan is the same as Indo-European. He explains all this there. Make sure you read this to understand that Hurrian is Aryan aka Indo-Europeans. Ararat arev 18:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Stop repeating things I have disproven three times over. That paper does not say that the hurrians are aryans, it says that the Mitannain ruling class is Aryan: Indoeuropeans native to more or less west of the Caspian.

And I explained to you that Hurrians were there earlier yesterday. You make it seem like I no nothing. You were the one saying that Hurrians that you dont know for sure after the Mari letters. Ararat arev 18:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

If you're lying you're only fooling yourself. I will get another map and show you. Ararat arev 18:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * That's totally uncalled for. I've actually given you legitimate sources. Wikipedia has no room for people who look at works printed by Oxford and Cambridge and refuse to call them reliable sources.

The Nairi (Naharin) issue will be clear soon. I told you Egyptians and Assyrian (Akkadian) these "Semitic" people or any Semitic people look it up do I have to show you the links on the internet? If I have to I will show you the links here. They refer to our lands as Nairi (Naharin) or Nhr. Arabs say Nahor. etc etc. Egyptians are a form of Semitic also which you see that refers to our lands of rivers. There is nothing else but that I dont understand this none sense you bring to get all technical. If you have to get technical in everything you wont even understand. I mean if you have to get technical on Egypt also you will change the entire history in one week. Ararat arev 18:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * If by technical you mean refusing to let you equivocate two cognates to be the same thing, then technicality is truth. Internet links don't count. The reason you exasperate us is because you enlessly repeat things we've already said aren't true or aren't allowed. Here's Shaw's encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt: "Mitanni... developed in the area of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers ... The country was probably known to the Egyptians as Nahrin." What you are doing is called a Etymological Fallicy. The root of a word has very little to do with the meaning of the word. The word Naharin is used entierly and only ever to refer to the immeditate transeuphrates lands, and never to urartu. Its root, nhr, means river. Two words developed from that word, Naharin, which refers to the land between the rivers, and your Nairi, the "land of rivers." Minnesota and Finland are both called the "Land of 10000 lakes." This does not make minnesota finland.

You had said earlier that " You can't prove that hurrians were anywhere before 1700 and the mari letters. It cannot be done." But yet now you say " Hurrians were literate as early as 2200 BC, and settled en masse in Hanigalbat/aram naharin/south of the tigris by the 1800-1700 period " ??? Im the one throwing wrong information?
 * Yes, you still are. The literacy of Hurrians is proven by the kind of cuneaform orthology which they wrote with, which comes from the Late Akkadian to Ur III period. Their actual history prior to the 1700's cannot be proven. 100 years is a standard margin of error for a shadowy people group's movements.

You know there is a lot of people even on this site this encyclopedia that agree with what Im saying. And no they are not "all" Armenians to say that oh they're your nationality thats why. And those that dont know are just ignorant and are finding out just recently. I mean I just got into our history just recently. But I have learned so much these past few months my cousin thought I went to school and studied on our history. That cousin of mine actually has degrees on history he took school like you're doing on Armenian history though. He was amazed to see how much in such a short time I had found about our history. So I mean like I said there are people who will know later on if they are ignorant now. But its about the truth and I went to bring up an example that you are distorting which is a key to all this. First off I know the Persian language cause my cousins are from there. They are Persian Armenian they live there so I asked them how they say these words "Tus" or "Das"ratta which is one of the Mitanni kings names and its not the same word its "Da" for ten. Tusratta the Mitanni name means "ten chariots" this is translated and shown in the Mitanni page. Its the translation of the name just like Egyptian names. In Armenian "Das" or "Tus" is ten which is the exact way rather the Persian or Kurds say "Da". Thats just one King of Mitanni's example. The next is Ardatama which they said it translates to "most righteous". In Armenian "Arda" mean righteous. The Persian word is not even close to "Arda" so you can just forget that one. As Im explaining this Im thinking of what I showed you earlier the "pdf" file I hope you looked into it to see Hurrian-Aryan is one and the same people. Let me give an example why the name changed slightly from "Ar" to "Hur" cause in Persian Armenian compared to Lebanese Armenian we call them "Arevmdahye" and that means western Armenians and we are eastern Armenians "Arevelahye". So there are different Armenians and our "words" are different just like "Hurrian" and "Ar"yan. Im talking about mainly the root word "Ar" and "Hur" is the same meaning in Armenian today means Fire, Sun, and or Light. Those 2 words mean that "Ar" and "Hur" mean Fire, Sun and or Light. So it was the same in the past the western Armenian tribes the Hurrians were like todays "Arevmdahye" Armenians which faced the tragic ww1 events the most. As you see the similar thing with the past with Hurri-Mitanni with the Assyrians taking over and ending the kingdom. So they scattered back to the east and built the stronghold Urartu. The same happened in ww1 we had brave soldiers that built a stronghold and didnt allow the Turks to move in deeper in Armenia, or what was left of Armenia. So I hope this was enough info If not we will discuss further on this I have many more to reveal. Ararat arev 20:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't care about opinions, I don't care about false etymologies, I don't care about your misinterpretation of papers. We cannot prove where they came from and we cannot prove where they went. It's that simple. Now feel free to edit armenian history, but if you do not use strict histories of Mitanni to support anything you write about mitanni and I come across it, I'm going to fix it. Cambridge. Oxford. The University of Chicago. These are the experts and if you don't use them, don't expect to get your views put forward as the majority view. You are a clear-cut pov pusher. Now, sir, please. If you can't do anything except repeat things which I have already wasted altogether too much of my time disproving, don't respond. Thanatosimii 21:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I doubt you read all my writing carefully. This proves there is some other reason you seem to ignore what Im saying. This is very important to me and my nationality about the 18th dynasty time of Egypt and why it was so great compared to the other more silent times. I will get more references and tell me what you are looking for to prove this to you. I will be sure to find them for you. Dont call me "sir" Patrick is fine. I feel Im very old when you call me sir Im not that old. Ararat arev 21:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I usually skim your long shpiels becasue it's always the same thing you've written before, time and time again. And I use the word "sir," because when one is being exasperated, intentional nicities tend to help with Civility. Thanatosimii 21:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

You are making me upset slightly, cause you are ignoring key points Im bringing up here and for some reason you are trying to get your way out of it. Read what I wrote in that long message more carefully. Ararat arev 21:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Its not the same things I wrote before please read the message carefully. Im telling you its not the same. It seems you are never going to except this even if its the truth. Ararat Ararat arev 21:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

If you dont read to understand something there that is very "key" to all this you will not find out. And you cant get your way out of it if you simply ignore it. You are missing some key points how could you prove yourself if you are ignoring?? Thats a classic example of false teachings or falsehood. Ararat arev 21:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

False etymology? Do you even know Armenian? What do you opinion? This is the truth that you are against. I know Armenian language and dont tell me Im making something false here? I said those words "Hurri" or "Ari" are the same meaning. What is false here? Should I suggest you learn Armenian or what? What else do you need to prove?? You just base on those 3 universitys or what? Ararat arev 21:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I will tell you now why its not false. Ask all the other Armenians here like TigranTheGreat he even mentioned if you notice that he realized the Hurrian words are todays modern Armenian words. And this was what I was explaining in the long message. And also about different kinds of Armenians even today as it was in the past. We have slightly different wording but same meaning. Just like the "kh" and "h" which is Khayasa or Hayasa. Or the words Hurri and Ari its the same meaning and in Lebanese Armenian there are words like that slightly said different but same meanings. Ararat arev 22:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Thats not the entire message though go read the entire message you seem to one me to cut the messages shorter. The Mitanni king "Tus"ratta or Dasratta means ten chariots. Tus is ten in Armenian. In Persian or Kurdish its Da not Das. Das or Tus is more near Armenian proving again those ancient tribes are more Armenian Aryan-Hurrian than Persian or Kurdish Aryans. As I said there are diffefent Armenians even today. Ararat arev 22:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

So I hope you realize from those scholars and Historians saying that Hurrians later went and built Urartu kingdom. This means the same tribes and people went there. They mightve been comparing to todays Armenian example, Persian Armenian and not Arevmdahye Armenian which is Lebanese Armenian. In either case they were Armenian now earlier you said they were our cousins its brothers. Ararat arev 22:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Im telling you I just started giving you key points. I have a lot more to explain, its not like this is it. I mean if you ignore key points like the ones I mentioned and not look further into it you are going to regret it later. When the truth comes out later and I hope it becomes a bigger truth that most people will finally realize. Its that type of thing it has to do with treasure of gold for example like Tutankhamen. Once the treasure or truth is found it will be all clear. There wont be this none sense talk of Nairi is not Naihri or Hurrians is not Aryans. This will be clear overtime. Just need to be patient. Ararat arev 22:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Another thing is you need to know about Armenian history and our culture. Every Armenian knows about our forefather Haik from the tribe of Armens at 2500 BC. Persians today call us by the ancient way of 'Armeni' which was from the Akkadian inscriptions. Which was during that time of Haik and even until the Hurri-Mitanni. So if you study our history you know than where those historians mention Hurrians were in Armenia who else was there. It was Armens or Armeni(Armenian tribes). Ararat arev 22:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Look here on what I just said:

Hurri n.

( pl. same or Hurris) a member of a people, originally from Armenia, who settled in northern Mesopotamia and Syria during the 3rd-2nd millennium bc and were later aborbed by the Hittites and Assyrians. (See also Mitanni.) Hittite & Assyrian Harri, Hurri The Oxford English Reference Dictionary, © Oxford University Press 1996

E. A. Speiser, "Introduction to Hurrians,"

"All indications point toward the general region of Armenia as a main area of Hurrian concentration."

Dr. Johannes Lehman, "The Hittites,"

"The Hurrians had a history of their own. Assyrian and Sumerian sources dating from the end of the third millenium B.C. supply our first information about this nation, people, and the land of Hurri, South of Caucasus. We also know that they come from the region of Lake Van in Eastern Anatolia, and are referred to as Horrittes by the Bible. Still, later in the ninth-seventh centuries N.C. the highland of Armenia were inhabited by a people who were related to the Hurrians and whose country bore the name Urartu, the Biblical Ararat" Ararat arev 22:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

That is what I said earlier when I showed you the map but you said the map didnt work. They came from Lake Van and Nairi is right there also mentioning part of Hurri-Mitanni. Ararat arev 22:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

If you remember when I said about the etymology the root word "AR" there are 5 or 6 pages of "AR" words in our dictionary. In Persian there is not even 2 words with "AR" and the one they use is the word Aryan which is from "AR"arat or at that ancient time written "AR"atta. These are facts they are not made up by me as if Im just making these things up. These are facts that you need to look into the Armenian heritage and culture more deeper if you really want to get to the truth on key issues like Hurri-Mitanni and Hyksos. Ararat arev 22:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * You have proven time and time again that you don't get it. Geographic residence does not equate to ethnic origin! Your perceptions of race and the uniformity thereof are wrong, and they pollute every argument you've given me. Except for the Naharin argument, that is, which derives from a misunderstanding of proper linguistics. I will try to explain this one last time:

I. The hurrians are of uncertain geographic origin. A. Even though you believe that all humanity spread out from mount Ararat after the flood, and I believe it too as a point of personal conviction, it is a minority view in the scholarly world and cannot be assumed in historical arguments. B. You must also admit, however, that the division of humanity according to the same source where you get the flood from says they diverged from Babel in Shinar, which is Sumer. The majority view is, of course, that man evolved in southeast africa and moved north. Thus, either way, the hurrians did not literally originate in Armenia. II. Hurrian language is obviously not Indo-european. A. Hurrian picked up loanwords from their immediate neighbors, but loanwords and cognate words are not evidence of cognate languages itself. B. Hurrian is an ergative-agglunative language. In this respect, its closest reletive might be related to Etruscan. Possibly. Beyond that, it has no known relatives. III. Some Hurrians moved out of Armenia, we believe, in the third millenium BC. A. Hurrian orthography shows similarities to old Akkadian or Ur III cuneaform at latest. This puts their beginnings of literacy at about the 2200's. B. At no single place on earth can we prove hurrians lived until Mari in the 18th century BC. C. By the 14th century, Hurrians come together in Aram Naharaim under and Indo-european ruling class. IV. The indo-europeans' origin is unknown. A. The Reshe people who settled in India in the 1200's BC worshipped the same deities as the Mitannians. B. Egyptian and Old testemental sources mention people called rS or rSt in Hanigalbat. C. The indo-europeans might then be directly related to far Indo-aryans. It's a possibility. D. If not, the Caucuses were regularly crossed by Indo-europeans who were not Armenian. The hittites and the guti, for instance. Thus, the Indo-europeans could have potentially come from anywhere. 1. Their names were composed in the same agglunative fashion as the Hurrian names, thus although we do not necesarrily know what they mean, they are clearly hurrian and not from their native ethnic culture. 2. Thus, etymologies to discover what their names mean cannot be done with Indo-european languages, but from other ergative-agglunative languages. V. Naharin was south of the Tigris A. North of the tigris sat the Khurri lands. These were also inhabited by ethnic Hurrians, but these were not settled in cities and not ruled by Mitanni. B. Naharin was considered by Egypt to be a political and not geographic region, that being the area ruled by mitanni. C. The later term Aram Naharin restricts Naharin to the area inhabited by Arameans. D. Nairi and Naharin derive from the same root word, Nhr. This does not make Nairi and Naharin the same word. 1. Nhr is not a geographic term in and of itself, it is the word for river. 2. Nhr would thus be component of all names of lands being derived from their rivers. 3. More than one land can have rivers in it. 4. Thus, as contextual evidence indicates that Naharin and Nairi refer solely to places on opposing sides of the tigris, it is more likely that Nairi and Naharin are different places both with the root Nhr. VI. After the destruction of Mitanni, different hurrians founded Urartu. A. Hurrians are attested outside of Mittanian boarders. Thus: 1. Mitanni was a kingdom composed of hurrians, not all hurrians everywhere. 2. Urartu was a kingdom composed of hurrians, not all hurrians everywhere. B. Accordingly, the kingdom of Urartu is a second kingdom composed of Mitanni's cousins, not some sort of government in exile. VII. Mitannians then vanished from history. A. The aformentioned similarity to the Etruscan language may indicate that some hurrians became sea peoples, assuming that the sea people group, "trS" refers to the Etruscans. B. Deportations to the Hittite empire and especially to the Assyrian empire are so large that it quite easily could have dissolved the Mitannian hurrians forever.

Besides the few speculative theories I included (which I gave not because I think they're necesarrily right, but only to show you that there are other options out there) everything in there is from the Majority thesis, put together by the world experts at Mitannian history. If a source says somthing contrary to anything written above and explains why they disagree, it can be considered a minority theory and cited as such along side the majority theory in relavant articles. If it directly contradicts the majority theory without even admitting as much, it's not real scholarship. Do not further waste my time. Thank you. Thanatosimii 01:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Hurri-Urartu-Armenia link
The Subarean (Asianic-Hurri-Japhetic) language is the basic stratum of the various above-mentioned tongues; it was topped and strongly affected by the Aryan-Mitanni language, from which mixture the Urartean sprang up, it being related in turn to the old Hatti-Asianic, the new Caucasian and through Indo-European elements, to the Aryan languages. On this Indo-European-Armenian foundation was superimposed the Urartean speech, which was forced upon the conquered natives, from whose dialects also an additional stock of words was assimilated in the course of time. Traces of anthropological types of culture, religion and social customs are being discovered from time to time under the Armen stratum. The same may be said of the linguistic heritage of the past.

In his analysis of the known Iso-Urartean root-words, Professor Ghapantsian of Erevan University identifies one-fourth as of Hittite character. Many other root words and grammatical forms of non-Indo-European types have been found, but belonging to an Asia Minor group. All non-Indo-European elements, the Urartean and others, descend from the Subarean common origin. The same applies to the anthropological strata of the population of Armenia, whose chronology is stated by Professor A. Hatch as follows: Subarean basic stratum dating from 3000 B.C. Harri-Mitanni-Aryan stratum dating from 2000 B.C. Mosch-Muski-Aryan-Phryge stratum dating from 1176 B.C. Hatti major infiltration into Armenia 1200 B.C. Khald-Urartean rule in Armenia 9th century B.C. Phryge-Armen rule in Armenia beginning 650 B.C.

Under Persian rule, the Urartaean language was replaced by the Armenian language. Probably, this was not caused by ethnic, but by "social changes". Although are sources are scarce, it is certain that the before 500 BCE, the elite spoke Hurrian (a language that does not belong to any known linguistic family) and the common people spoke Armenian. When the Persians had conquered the country, they favored the latter language, which is related to Greek and (at a distance) Persian. Ararat arev 00:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Do some study on Armenology
This is starting to be foolish with all your fancy explainations and Im clearly telling you the very word "Hurri" is in our Armenian language. So what does that tell you? Hurri"an" Hurrian is Hurri. If you dont get this??? I told you Hurri is an Armenian word. These words are still in our language today the examples I gave of Hurri-Mitanni kings names Armenian words and the different Armenians that speak slightly with different words like I said from Persian Armenian which thats me, compared to Lebanese Armenian which are Arevmdahye and I am Arevelahye. I told you you need to know about Armenian history and heritage more than you think you do. Ararat arev 01:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

You said earlier that words like dsert from Egyptian to English meaning the same thing right remember? Well Im not referring to those rare situations and Im talking specific things here. Im talking about which most people also have confusion with all these sub-divisions of the Indo-European(Aryan) peoples. Im saying the Mitanni kings names are more Armenian than Persian/Kurdish/Indian. The examples I gave like few times but you still havent understand what im trying to bring across. Im saying Persians say "Da" for ten, while Armenians say Das or Tus for ten. Tusratta or Dasratta which translates to "ten chariots" is more near the Armenian language than the others like the Persian/Kurdish/Indian. Another is Ardatama or Artatama which translated to "most righteous" again the D and T switch in this too. Arda is "righteous" in Armenian. The Persian/Kurd/Indian is not even close to it. There is no other nationality on this earth right now that is more near Hurri-Mitanni than Armenians. We are direct descendents of these ancient tribes. Ararat arev 02:10, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Sir, let me let you in on a secret. On a regular basis, pseudohistorians come up and suggest on the basis of a few similar words in two languages that two languages are related. They're laughed at and tossed out of universities on their rears. If you tried to say that Hurri was an armenian word therefore Hurrians are armenians, you would be laughed at to your face, just like my professor did when I said that I knew someone suggesting that Hurrians were from Armenia. You say I know nothing about Armenia. Well, more or less, you're right. But you know nothing about Mitanni or Urartu. If the books on armenia are in direct contradiction with the books on mitanni, when it comes to mitannian history, the mitannian books win. Furthermore, you need to stop thinking with a wrong view of ethnicity. Ethnicities are not some timeless, eternal and monolithic entites, but extremely liquid and changing things. You cannot look for "the ethnicity" of the Mitannian Indo-europeans. It doesn't have to be one that still exists today. The fact that persian is a poorer choice than Armenian doesn't make armenian right, because armenian is still a terrible choice. The kings had purely hurrian names! The names didn't come from any Indo-european lanugage. Please, please stop waisting my time. Thanatosimii 02:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Its not just based on the word Hurri being Armenian its based on all the other things the lands that Hurri was from is Armenian lands. The scholars, historians, the dictionarys all these people I showed you mention that the Hurri is from Armenia. Yes its our ethnicity because I told you in our people there are Arevemdahye and Arevelahye. Im saying this in Armenian on purpose so you can study more on Armenian history. Ararat arev 02:30, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Hurri n.

( pl. same or Hurris) a member of a people, originally from Armenia, who settled in northern Mesopotamia and Syria during the 3rd-2nd millennium bc and were later aborbed by the Hittites and Assyrians. (See also Mitanni.) Hittite & Assyrian Harri, Hurri The Oxford English Reference Dictionary, © Oxford University Press 1996

E. A. Speiser, "Introduction to Hurrians,"

"All indications point toward the general region of Armenia as a main area of Hurrian concentration."

Dr. Johannes Lehman, "The Hittites,"

"The Hurrians had a history of their own. Assyrian and Sumerian sources dating from the end of the third millenium B.C. supply our first information about this nation, people, and the land of Hurri, South of Caucasus. We also know that they come from the region of Lake Van in Eastern Anatolia, and are referred to as Horrittes by the Bible. Still, later in the ninth-seventh centuries N.C. the highland of Armenia were inhabited by a people who were related to the Hurrians and whose country bore the name Urartu, the Biblical Ararat" Ararat arev 22:33,

See if the map works now:

Map showing "Nairi" near Lake Van part of Hurri-Mitanni and (K)Hayasa is there also http://satrapa1.com/articulos/antiguedad/oriente/IIIperiodo/mitanni.jpg Ararat arev 05:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC) This is clearly showing at the time of King Baratarna 1450 BC the beginnings of Hurri-Mitanni it already had the area around Lake Van. I mean that was there to begin with and then they stretched further west.

Jacquetta Hawkes, "The First Great Civilizations," London, 1967

"Yet the Hurrians did not disappear from history. Away to the North in their Armenian homeland, they entrenched themselves and build up the kingdom of Urartu." Ararat arev 02:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Hurri map
http://128.97.6.202/urkeshpublic/Hurrians.htm Ararat arev 02:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Assyrian word for river = Nairi Akkadian = Naharin(a) Egyptian = Nhr Arabic = Nahr

These are the Semitic people and there word for river. There is no confusion here. Ararat arev 02:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The great Armenian civilization of Sumer was inherited and continued to progress under the powerful Armenian kingdoms of Mitanni and Haiasa (ethnically and linguistically tied to their Indo-European kinsmen -- the Hittites) in the Second Millennium B.C.

The Armenian legacy of Sumer-Hurrian-Hyksos heritage in the second millennium B.C. had already developed a rich architectural style. This in turn spread and influenced the nearby cultures of ancient Near East. Building techniques and architecture as such reached a high degree of development during the period of the Araratian (Urartian) Kingdom of Van (XIIIth -VIth centuries BC). Ararat arev 02:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Im glad you know Egyptian. Did you know our Hyksos revealed more about RA. Armenian for "AR" which means the same thing. Armenian "AR" means light, sun, life, "AR" is also the creator who created heaven and earth as you see thats "RA" AR-RA is most common Armenian name. Aram is also most common Armenian name which you see Aram-Naharin. So is Armen of the ancient Armenian tribes. To this day Iranians called us by Armani from the ancient Akkadian inscriptions of our tribe Armani or Armens. Ararat arev 02:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Responses
I'm not going to keep responding with the exact same words to everything you say verbatim time and time again. This should help

I have unquestionably explained why your nahri nonsense is just that eleven times for example. I'm not going to keep doing that. If you think of somthing new, feel free to talk to me. If you come at me with verbatim repeating of thing I've shown to be false, I'm not going to bother with you. Oh, the Hurrians are not Hyksos any more than they're Armenians. The Hyksos are native canaanites, not Hurrians. That's been proven for upward of, oh, probably a century or so? At the least, it's in a 1930s book I've got.

You have some facination with making me convert to your pov, but it ain't happening, at least not while I've got reliable sources which say you're totally wrong behind me. Please leave me alone. Thanatosimii 03:30, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

You are creative. That doesnt make it true its your opinions here your showing. Ararat arev 03:39, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * No, these are the facts. Yours are the opinions. Everything I put there is entierly factually accurate. Thanatosimii 03:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Like I said you are lacking Armenology. You need to specially study the time of "Hurro"-Urartu and see how the social changes after the Persian empire formed around 500 BC changes happened. Ararat arev 03:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't care about armenia, I care about maintaining the legitimacy of the Mitanni related pages. You only need mitannian history for that. Thanatosimii 03:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * That's seven times you brought up the names business. Understand this: You can't compare the Armenian meaning to the Hurrian meaning because we don't know the hurrian meaning. Thanatosimii 03:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Once you know more about that time period of Hurri-Urartu than you will realize that the Hurrian words of Tusratta, Ardatama, Hurri etc etc are in fact the very words and same meanings used in Armenian language. Ararat arev 03:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

If you have such a passion (Armenian Hur = passion, fire) than why dont I see nice Hurri-Mitanni seals, artifacts on your Mitanni page here. We however have the Mitanni images like on http://www.armenianhighland.com Ararat arev 03:54, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

http://www.armenianhighland.com/main.html look at the site dont just look for one second. It might even take you months to read all of it. Ararat arev 03:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

No answer yet? I said if you have such a passion (Hur) for Mitanni why dont I see any artifacts or seals etc etc. that you can put on Mitanni pages? My nationality is my proof and evidence that Hurri-Mitanni is Armenian. All of Armenians know this they are my witness and proof. Just go ask an Armenian. Are you going to put down my nationality now? You think thats the right way? Of course not.

Ararat arev 04:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

For pity sake, I'm not on at all hours of the night. I have a passion for historical truth, not for an ethnicity. I'm sorry, but nationalistic pride ain't evidence. Thanatosimii 07:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

What time is it there? It's 11:30 pm now over here. I didnt know you are in a different place? Ararat arev 07:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Passion for historical truth hmm ok. I didnt' say that I said if you have such Passion (Hur in Armenian) for Mitanni where is your Mitanni seals and artifacts as we Armenians have. Ararat arev 07:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

And if you look at the crown of our later king Tigran the Great you see the exact symbol on his crown. Ararat arev 07:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Armenian heritage and culture is a key in finding about our true history. I have a passion for truth of history also If you havent noticed yet Im telling you now. Ararat arev 08:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, heritage and culture are not historically valuable for finding "lineage" after 3500 years. Thanatosimii 17:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

It certainly is "a" key not "the" only reasons but language is not the only reason that you seem to mainly be mentioning about someone's history. Language changes over the course of 1000's of years. Thats just natural specially when you move around different lands. Ararat arev 17:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Armenian historians are basing on our culture, language, tribe or ethnicity from cuneiform inscriptions to archeological finds.

Again the oldest inscription of Armenia we have is from third millennium BC "Armani" (almost 4,500 years ago) by Naram-Sin and his incription was found in southern Armenia as well. To this very day Arabs and Iranians call Armenians "Armani". Ararat arev 17:39, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Another way of saying Armani was "Har"-mini which the "Ar" is pronounced "Har". Which if you noticed Hurrian is also Harran if you noticed the city's name. You can look up your sources for Harran and Hurrian I know you should have sources for that. So as I said language changes over course of time and when moving to different lands. Ararat arev 17:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Another thing is we dont call ourselves by Indo-European but by "Aryan" in Armenian. In Armenian we say were "Aryan" "Aryaee". So since you realized previously that Hurrian-Aryan yet you told me its only with Indo people. Its not just the Indo its Aryan people are Armenian/Persian(Kurd)/Indian. The Armenian Highlands is the home of the Aryan(Indo-European) peoples. That is where the origin is the Armenian Highlands, the land of Ararat, where the rebirth of life and of the nations that spread across the 4 corners of the earth after the flood. Ararat arev 20:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

But hurrians didn't call themselves hurri, they called themselves Khurri. Khur to Ar is not a legitimate jump to make. One shared consonent is insufficient. Khurri incidentally is most often suspected to mean coallition or alliance, not fire. But then we aren't certain what it means. Haran has no evidence of being inhabited by any hurrians. And it doesn't really matter what you call yourself: Armenians entered the area from the european branch and the language is probably closer to Greek. You can't use the flood story as a legitimate source or as a basis for any history. Even if true, humanity then spread out of sumer, not from Ararat. Cultural heritage and similarities, as I have said, are invariably suspect and almost always wrong over the millenia between then and now, when analyzed by real historians. If you have sources that would argue otherwise, they're probably not written by legit historians. Thanatosimii 21:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I know about Khur and Hur also. Khurri-Mitanni is how we actually say it. This "Kh" is used also to this very day in Armenian for Khurri and other words with the "H" being "Kh" like Hye and Khye. Ararat arev 21:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

No sources? No references?
Ararat Arev, Please stop this nonsense propaganda on Armenian "mysticism" that you have going, until you come to Wikipedia with some credible sources. If you don't find any, then I suggest you become a professor in the matter and write us a book about your findings. Otherwise, the material you are propounding will never be considered for use in an encyclopedia, and certainly not even in a course of Armenian history at a university. Not even the books being read in Armenian history courses at respectable universities definitively concludes the exact origins of the Armenians. I have previously given a worthy book printed in 1998 and again in 2000 in paperback entitled The Armenians by A.E. Redgate. It's worth a read. Until you have credible sources that you can cite, you're only wasting your own and other peoples' time. Serouj 21:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I dont have sources or you ddint look at my page?? Ararat arev 21:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Vahan Kurkjian
Vahan Kurkjian, "History of Armenia," Michigan, 1968

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Asia/Armenia/_Texts/KURARM/home.html

"The Hurri-Mitanni kingdom of Armenia kept close contact with its western neighbor, Hittite or Hatti land. Masses of population were often transplanted from one country to the other. "

Vyacheslav Ivanov
The great Indo-European and ancient Near East scholar Vyacheslav Ivanov.

Look in Hurrians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrians

Now look down there in External links it has

http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/pies/pdfs/IESV/1/VVI_Horse.pdf

Once you get there search Hurrian-Aryan and you will see it stands for Mitanni and the scholar explains it all in detail. And Aryan is the same as Indo-European. He explains all this there.

Hurri n.

( pl. same or Hurris) a member of a people, originally from Armenia, who settled in northern Mesopotamia and Syria during the 3rd-2nd millennium bc and were later aborbed by the Hittites and Assyrians. (See also Mitanni.) Hittite & Assyrian Harri, Hurri The Oxford English Reference Dictionary, © Oxford University Press 1996

E. A. Speiser
E. A. Speiser, "Introduction to Hurrians,"

"All indications point toward the general region of Armenia as a main area of Hurrian concentration."

There is a lot more this is only a few Ararat arev 21:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Jacquetta Hawkes
Jacquetta Hawkes, "The First Great Civilizations," London, 1967

"Yet the Hurrians did not disappear from history. Away to the North in their Armenian homeland, they entrenched themselves and build up the kingdom of Urartu."

M.Chahin
M.Chahin, "The Kingdom of Armenia," London, 2001

"The new kingdom of Urartu, which proved to be the stronghold of the Hurrian race."

Look there is way more references Im getting from historians and scholars. Ararat arev 21:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


 * First of all, what are you trying to say? Throwing quotes at people doesn't mean anything.  You first have to say what the thought is that you're trying to get across to me, or someone else, and then back that thought up with sources.  I'd recommend taking a critical writing course or two at a local college.  Serouj 22:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

You came on my Talk page and said im saying none sense and have no "sources" and "references". And I responded and showed you all the sources and you didnt look at my page to see it. Ararat arev 22:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Look what I wrote when I responded you didnt read it "I dont have sources or you ddint look at my page?? Ararat arev 21:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)" Ararat arev 22:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, you have no sources. I've proven these all false or misinterpreted. you just keep mindlessly repeating them. Speiser of all people would never call Hurrians Armenians. If you wish to prove this Hye being Khye, give me the symbol for H/Kh on my talk page. Thanatosimii 22:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by symbol? Khayasa is Hayasa another example. You need to study Armenian language or talk to Armenians also. This is a great way of finding out just like I said ask Persians(Iranians) about Armani for example. Persians to this day call us Armani Ararat arev 22:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I mean I want to see the armenian letter. Thanatosimii 22:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * [h] is <Հ> (large) or <հ> (small) in the Armenian alphabet; [χ] is <Խ> (large or <խ> (small).  But I don't see how this would help the case here, since the Armenian alphabet was designed in 405 AD.  Serouj 22:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It doesn't really, since Ararat arev had been implying that it was the same letter which was sometimes pronounced differently dialectically. If they're different letters, his argument falls through. Thanatosimii 22:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I want to respond about this response you keep saying about these historians/scholars/authors. You keep saying these are false historians? Look man these people didnt even know each other. Its not like they are some group of people that knew each other. You havent even read there books to say such things like that. Ararat arev 22:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Armenian letter? Are alphabet is changed now its not the same as that ancient time. The pronouncing of the words are the same though the letters are not from that time. But if you want I can show you the modern letters of those sounds. First I need to know how to find them on the internet to show you. Ararat arev 22:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

There, Serouj put it. Ararat arev 22:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm saying your interpretation of what they are saying is coloured by the crackpots over at that arminianhighland site of yours. Those people definitly are fake historians. Spesiser at least is a good historian whose work I am familiar with (I can't say anything about the others) however what they are saying does not mean what you think it means! Thanatosimii 22:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, the pronouncing of letters is never ever ever the same from antiquity. Thanatosimii 22:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Armenianhighland.com is not my site and its not based on armenianhighland.com only. He made a site on Armenian history on the "internet" which is a great thing to do. Our historians know all those things he put on the "internet". You didnt read his site either cause it takes a long time there is a lot of info he worked on since 1997. Ararat arev 22:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Who said its not the same "Kh" and "H" since you even say "you" dont know about the Hurrian words etc etc. We know cause Hurrian-Aryan words are the same as I showed you the examples earlier. Ararat arev 22:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC) Ararat arev 22:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Since you also realized that Hurri-Mitanni is Indo-"Aryan" people. So the Aryan people which we are those are our words. The Mitanni kings names are those words we use to this very day. Ararat arev 22:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Please try to grasp this. Please. It's not the same word unless it has the same meaning, and noone knows for certainty was many hurrians words, including the ones you have been suggesting, actually mean. Even if Tushratta means ten chariots in armenian, it probably doesn't mean "Ten Chariots" in hurrian, thus it cannot be the same word! Anyhow, Serouj just said that the Kh and H weren't the same. one is [h] and the other is [χ]. Thanatosimii 23:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

"X" is "Kh" Just like Xerxes is Khashersha in Persian in english they write it Xerxes. Ararat arev 23:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

In case you didnt know what im saying Xerxes is a Persian Kings name. "Kh" is "X" thats how we pronounce it. As I actually was discussing this same issue with Gevork last night. Ararat arev 23:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Almost. [χ] (not "X") is the International Phonetic Alphabet symbol for a Velar Fricative, which does amount to somthing like a Kh sound. But the point is that it's not the same thing as [h], which is somthing you said: " 'H' being 'Kh' ." And of course I know who Xerxes is. Now I won't have a computer for the next day or so, so please take this opportunity to stop bothering me! You have refused to interact with my arguments, you just keep parroting them back to me. I've heard it all before! Leave me be!Thanatosimii 23:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

User:TigranTheGreat even agrees " and Armenian has Hurrite words. How could there possibly be no contribution? " Ararat arev 23:42, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The reason why Hurri is also said by Khurri is cause I told you the example of our words we have from different Armenians in Armenia even. Some say Khye for Hye and other words like Khurri-Mitanni instead of saying Hurri-Mitanni. Ararat arev 23:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

My aunt's husband's barbar from Aparan (near Aragats mountain) is actually like that with X they say Xars for Hars and Xay for Hay. And the X = Kh we already agreed is the same. Ararat arev 01:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Even if that's the case, you need references, or else it's considered original research. These guys lived in 1000 BC.  Historians don't even know much about Tiridates I, king of Armenia in the first century.  How do you think people would determine what happened to the Hurri-Mitanni, the Hayasa, etc, other than by speculation?  Without any further archaeological excavations in the Armenian Highland (which includes much of the modern day eastern provinces of Turkey) these issues will never be resolved. Serouj 02:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not based on finding our language only. Its based on our culture, our Armenian heritage and neighbors. Archeaological, cuneiform inscriptions, etc etc. I told you to this day Armenians are referred as Armani by Persians, which is the 2300 BC Akkadian inscriptions. Thats just one example, what about Haik? You didnt believe that Haik and his Armen tribe existed? You mean to tell me you are agreeing with Turks that we are from all the way to only 2000 something years?? Look at the Mitanni seal I have on this page with the 8 ray winged and 2 eagles symbol. Tigran the Great's crown has the same exact symbol. Which as you know during Tigran Mitra was worshipped. The Mitra that was during Mitanni's time. Look in the page and read it says Mitra was one of the deity's of that time. There is a lot more evidence about our history we will discuss. I hope you have a passion for our history and to find out about it not to just keep doubting as that helps those who dont see us as friends. Ararat arev 02:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Dont tell me you dont know that we say "Aryaee" and not "Indo-European" in Armenian. We say "Aryaee" which we are the Aryan people. I just wanted to clarify this its a key point in this Hurri-Aryan issue. Read Ivanov's link I gave you here. Ararat arev 02:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Պատմութիւն
Եղբայր՝ խելքդ գլուխդ հաւաքէ եւ ասանկ պարապ նիւթերով ժամանակդ մի անցնէր։ Թուրքերը պատրաստ են Հայաստանը բնաջնջելու եւ դուն կեցէր ես երեք հազար տարուայ պատմութեան վրա՞յ կը տրամաբանես փոխանակ ներկա՛յ երկիրդ ու մշակոյթդ զօրացնելու։  Հայաստանը ուժի պէտք ունի, ոչթէ հնադարեան ժամանակի պատմաբաններու։  Եթէ կրնաս՝ օգնէ մեր հայերէն լեզուի (Armenian language), գրականութեան (Armenian literature), կամ ճարտարագիտութեան (Armenian architecture էջերուն զարգացման։  Վազ անցիր այս հուրի-միթանիյէն. մեզի չ'օգնէր ոեւէ մէկ ձեւով։ Serouj 02:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes mer budmootoon shat em siroom yev meenak yes chem. Odar ner 10 daree en drel vor henz "internet"ee vra oreenak mer budmootoon dnen. Nooyn hayodz budmooton vor budmoabunner mer emanoom em yev budzadroom en. Do Hovick Nersessianeen janachoom es? Gum Artak Movsisyan? Gum Vardanank zrageer nayoom es? Garevor eh vor mer yereedazardner veradarnan yev anzyial emanan inchkan siroon yev haroozd anzyial enk onezel. Ararat arev 02:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Նայէ՝ ուրախ եմ որ հետաքրքրուած ես հայոց պատմութեամբ։ Բայց ի՞նչ պէտք կայ այդքան հեռու երդալ։  Նպատակը հաւերժութիւնն է հայ ժողովուրդին։  Պէտք է հասկնաս անցեալ 1400 տարուայ պատմութիւնը՝ յատկապէս երբ որ թուրքերը եկան հայկական բարձրավանդակը։  Հուրի-միթանի եւ այլ բաններ անկարեւոր են։  Թուրքերը կ'ուզեն Հայաստանը բնաջնջել։  Թուրքերը կը ջարդէն - եւ այդ ալ ինչպէ՜ս։  Հուրի-միթանիյի մասին մտածելով մենք մեր նպատակին չենք հասնիր։  Թուրքը պատրաստ է մեռցնելու, եւ մեռցուցած է անցեալին։  Եկուր հասկնանք մեր վերչին 100 տարուայ պատմութիւնը եւ ուր ենք սխալած (օրինակ՝ Պանք Օթոման) եւ հասկնանք ուր ենք յաչողած (օրինակ՝ Հայաստանի առաչին հանրապետութեան կարուցումը, Նեմեսիս գործողութիւնը, եւ Ձեղակրօնը)։  Կարեւոր դեմքերն են՝ Գարեգին Նժդէհ, Նիկոլ Աղբալեան, Շահան Նաթալի, Մոնթէ Մելքոնեան։  Վազ անցիր այս հին հուրի-միթանի պատմութենէն. այդ անցեալը մեզի տեղ չի հասցնէր։  Նայիր մեր աւելի նոր անցեալին։  Serouj 03:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Henz Artak Movsisyan ed er asoom vor dbrozneree mech pogharen dghoor banner arach khosank mer pokreekneree hed beedee mer haroozd yev shat yergar budmootyan maseen khosank. Mer Hye barer do siroom es teh che? Yes shat em siroom mer heritage mer mshagooydn shat garevor eh. Yes drahamar el hadook siroom em Yegeebdosee gapern el vor onezel enk mer anzyial oom. Yev asezee yes shat em siroom yev shat odar Hyer el en siroom oremn me inz meenak asa es. Yev hasganoom em do Arevmdahye es avelee eh kez modeek ed dghoor jamanakn vor dajeek arav mez. Hedakrkreer eh vor henz Hurri-Mitanniee jamanak erank Arevmdahyenern ayeen yev nman budmooton yeghav yev Sardarabadee nman berd sargezeenk vor mer tshnameenern chanzneen avelee khor hyreneekn. Ararat arev 03:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Ասիկա արեւմտահայ եւ արեւելահայի հետ կապ չ'ունի։ Թուրքը երկո՛ւքնալ ջարթեց եւ պիտի՛ փորձէ ջարթել նորէն ապագային։  Հայոց պատմութիւնը իմանալը շատ լաւ բան է։  Հայոց մշակոյթ (լեզու, պար, երգեր, գրականութիւն, եւ այլն) շատ կարեւոր է որ նախ հայ երիտասարդը հայ զգայ։ Բայց այդկէ վերչ պէտք է կերդրոնանայ արդի (modern) հայոց պատմութեան. այս հուրի-միթանի պատմութեան մէջ շատ երեւակայական բաններ կան եւ նորէն կը կրկնեմ «այդ պատմութիւնը անկարեւոր է»։  Կարեւորը ներկայ ու ապագայ Հայաստանն է, ու սորվիլ մեր անցեալէն։  Թէ թուրքը պատրաստ է իր նպատակին հասնելու (ծովից-ծով թուրքիայ) եւ պատրաստ է ոջնչացնելու ոեւէ մարդ կամ առարկայ իր ճանապարհին, հայերն ալ հետը։  Հայ երիտասարդութիւնը պէտք է միայն հասկնայ թէ իր ապագան միայն ու միայն ի՛ր ձեռքն է, եւ ո՛չ մէկը հայուն պիտի գայ օգնելու՝ ոչ անցեալին (ջարթեր եւ ձեղասպանութիւն), ոչ ներկային (Ռուսիան կ'օգնէ որովհետեւ շահ ունի եւ վաղը կրնայ այդ մէկը փոխուիլ), եւ ո՛չ ալ ապագային։  Ժամանակդ մի՛ վատնէր հուրի-միթանիյով։  Եթէ կարողութիւնը ունիս, օժանդակէ հայերէն լեզուի, գրականութեան, եւ ճարտարագիտութեան յօդուածներուն որոնք պէտքը ունին։  Serouj 03:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Bytes garevor eh anzyial nooyn bes abagaheen gap ooneee vordev beedee heeshenk menk ov enk. Beedee emanan mardeek odarner mer anzyialn vor emanan menk inchgan isgagan azg enk. Vor henz Masees Sareeds vor henz Shumeragan sepageerneree mech grvadz eh Maseesee maseen yev Arattaee maseen. Menk avelee heen grvadzner onenk vor hedo Jahoodnern verzrel en mezaneez emanoom es? Dra hamar es dajeeknern hooysov vor hasganan vor ed yergeern mern eh vor erank en hima. Yev hasganan vor henz edegh vor yes mer budmootoon ozoom em jsdenk mardganz vor henz aydegh er vor Vana leejee yev avelee Arevmoodk der vor Medz Tigranenee jamanak henz ayd yergeern mern er yev oneenk avelee der heen jamaanak. Desnoom es heteh verjn avel shat mardeek odar mardeek emanana es Turkern dajeeknern el chen garoghana odar ban asen. Vordegh henz erank en vor mer azgeen vocheechaznoom en yev asoom en vor avelee nor mardeek enk. Menk henz ayd mardeekn enk vor Hyegagan lernashkharn eh gyankee ezgeesbn vor Asdvads vor Ararichn mez gyank dvav. Mer Hygagan lernashkeroom gyank verdarzn elav jrhegheedz hedo Maseesee vra Araratee vra. Desnoom es inchee hamar eh hima? Yes mer azgee hamar em es anoom. Yev odar bun el vor emanoom es menk inchkan gideleekner enk emazel? Inchkan imasddootyan mardeek enk yeghel? Asdghagidootoon (astronomy) yev hogeee jshdtootoonern emazel enk Asdvazeen janachel enk. Assurree nern vor meeshd mer hed greev en arel irank eeen Asdzoo hagarak. Oremn ayo mer anzyial shat garevor eh vor ays harzern abagayeen jsdhvee. Ararat arev 03:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Չեմ գիտէր քանի տարեկան ես, բայց կեանքիդ մէջ որքան շուտ սորվիս յետեւեալը աշխարհի մասին՝ այդքան աւելի լա՛ւ ձեւով կ'օգնէս հայրենիքիդ ու ազգիդ։ Թիւ մէկ՝ արդարութիւն չկայ։  Օտարը հայերուն պիտի չ'օգնէ ոեւէ ատէն, բացի եթէ իրենց շահին է։  Թիւ երկու՝ հողի մը տէրը կը փոխուի ժամանակի ընթացքին, իսկ անոնք կը տիրանան որոնք աւելի հզօր են ՈՒԺՈՎ։  Հայկական բարձրավանդակը միշտ հայեր չե՛ն եղած։  Կային հուրի-միթանի, Ուրարատացիներ, եւ այլն։  Հայերը (որոնք Եւրոպայէն եկան) տիրացան այդ հողին որովհետեւ աւելի զօրաւոր էին։  Սակայն՝ իններորդ դարու ժամանակ սկսան թուրքեր քալ Մոնկոլեայէն։  Թուրքերը աւելի հզօր ըլլալով, հայերուն տեղահան ըրին 1045ին Անի քաղաքէն։  Ուրեմն տեսա՞ր։  Այդ հողը միշտ հայերուն չէ՛ պատկանած. այլ՝ պատկանած է հայերուն ժամանակ մը երբ անոնք ամէնէ՛ն հզօրը եղած են այդ հողին բնակիչներէն։  Այդ հողն ալ միշտ թուրքերուն չէ պատկանած։  Այդ հողը կը պատկանի հզօրին։  Եւ հզօրը այդ հողին միշտ կարող է փոխուիլ։  Եւ մինչեւ որ այս չ'հասկնաս, դժուար է յառաչ ընդանալը։
 * Շատ պարզ է աշխարհը, եղբայր։ Հզօրը կը տիրապետէ տկարին։  Եթէ հայերը նորից պիտի տիրապետէն իրենց պատմական հողին՝ պիտի ըլլայ զէնքի՛ ուժով, ինչպէս եղած է մարդկութեան բոլո՛ր պատմութեան ընթացքին։
 * Կը կրկնեմ՝ միայն ա՛յս վերլուծումն է կարեւորը պատմութիւնից։ Serouj 04:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Dacy problemo
Its obviously dacy im going to report him in urartu is widely accepted they might not have been Armenians only but they are descendent's of Armenians thats good enough since ancient Assyrian inscriptions are the best source merci. Nareklm 07:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I have all the sources there revealing even about Hurri-Mitanni. Have you also seen armenianhighland.com? The guy took 10 yearrs from 1997 to do it. Basically putting all our historians facts on the "internet" Armenian history from beginning to end. Ararat arev 07:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Armenia is very old, we must cherish it from hundreds of years from now people will know more things about us many civilizations have lived in our land but we still conquered and won battles. Nareklm 07:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well keep in mind a lot of our history is thanks to the romans and Assyrians they were both very advanced civilizations and tigran the great we got a lot of info from the romans, and urartu etc from Assyrians both very advanced so thats another hard fact people shouldn't deny. Nareklm 07:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

We have always had battles yes. Mostly in ancient times with Assyrians. Our neighbors are huge evidence showing that we are that ancient. I mean even the cuneiform sepagir stories of the flood and of Aratta and Mashu (Masees). We are the cradle of civilization and the Aryan (Indo-European) people came from "Ar"arat. The root word "Ar" is the key in all this. Ar means light, life, sun. Which we have like 5 to 10 pages of words in our dictionary with Ar. As you know Armeni means children of Ar(light). Hur is another way of Ar or Har and sometimes we use the Xhy in place of Hye. Also the X is same as Kh like Khy or Khayasa(hayasa). So hurri is even used today which is fire, sun, or light also. Like hur "hr"apogh for volcano and jur "jr"vej. So its Hur = fire Jur = water. There is a lot more to talk about :) Ararat arev 07:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: Battles
Also talk to me here cause i think this is going to be long lol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nareklm/Uratu

Ok let's go there and talk Ararat arev 07:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yup just go back there i was busy sorry. Nareklm 08:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Im not too sure what you mean but why dont you put it lol just edit the page? Nareklm 21:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Wait on this article? You can change anything cause i made it. Nareklm 21:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_mesopotamia

I told Narek and I have references
Narek knows this also why did you revert with ignorance? Look in the Haik page its during 3rd millennium BC and thats at the same Aratta / Armani time.

Eupator reverted them. This is what im saying they are reverting with ignorance. I put the sources too man. Artak Movsisyan has written 3 books on Aratta and Haik. Ararat arev 22:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok here are my references I'll just show you here its on my page:

Artak Movsisyan, "Aratta: The ancient Kindgom of Armenia," Yerevan, 1992.

Artak Movsisyan, "Mithraic (Mehian) Writing in the Kingdom of Van (Biaynili, Urartu, Ararat)," Yerevan, 1998.

Artak Movsisyan, "Sacred Highland: Armenia in the spiritual conception of the Near East," Yerevan, 2000.

Artak Movsisyan, "Aratta: Land of the Sacred Law," Yerevan, 2001. Ararat arev 22:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Why do you keep touching Mitanni when Im editing somethign that has nothing to do with it? Also, Hitittes empire is farther West than "Hurri"-Mitanni. In case you didnt realize also I found something else. Hur or Hurri which we use to this day meaning Sun, Fire, Light, is the same Hurri which is what it means Sun or Fire which Hurri-Mitanni was based on worshipping. We have always been gragabashd or arevabashd. The sun symbol of the royal "Hurri"-Mitanni seal shows you this. Tigran Great's exact symbol on his crown with the Hurri(Sun) and 2 eagles. And Im getting approval by Narek also just letting you know. Ararat arev 23:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Why are you removing Haykazuni dynasty??
Look at the History of Armenia article bro you know it says Haik. Why are you removing the Haykazuni dynasty??? Ararat arev 22:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Also regarding Mitanni look in the very page its Hurri-Mitanni. You dont even read bro. Read things man you dont read and you ddint read the references at all. You just came and straight removed what I put man. Im even letting Narek and Tigan know bro. Ararat arev 22:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Why do you even touch Mitanni? I didnt even touch that part I was adding in Haik's dynasty bro. Ararat arev 23:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Understand that it's a simple fact that I know what i'm talking about and that you DON'T. That's as simple as that. If you want to remain here I suggest you comply with my reasoning. Do not attempt to explain your logic to me, I don't care. There is no such thing as "Haykazuni dynasty". No such thing. I don't care who wrote what about it. I will keep an eye on Azeri changes...--Eupator 23:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Your edits are no different than Azeri vandalism, in fact your edits are worse. Also stop calling me "bros", what are you a rapper?--Eupator 00:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

By the way
Im not an administrator. Nareklm 23:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * By the way i moved it from my talk page to the urartu page cause i dont like my talk page being long so yep. Nareklm 23:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok thats fine. :) Ararat arev 23:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

User:Nareklm/Urartian_Armenians
I'm working on a new page click the link above, im making a separate one that compares urartians to Armenians work on it if it gets approved ill release it to the public. Nareklm 23:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I have to go there myself. Nareklm 23:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay man but you can edit to i told you already. Nareklm 23:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Just do your part Im busy doing my own somewhere else. Ararat arev 23:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay. Nareklm 00:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Can you let Eupator know that its supposed to say "Hurri-Mitanni" not just "Mitanni" The Hurri part is the whole evidence of the Armenian kingdom that it is. Vahan Kurkjian to name a few they all mention its "Hurri-Mitanni" not just Mitanni. Ararat arev 00:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Can't you tell him yourself? if you told him once he already knows. Nareklm 00:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I dont know what to do, Email him on his user page and tell him directly thats all. Nareklm 00:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I can't help you tell other people. Nareklm 00:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes i know. Nareklm 00:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Lav nah? click Nareklm 03:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Ayo luv ah. Its not only Armenia its Hurri-Mitanni and all our history. Not just Urartu. Did you see the site its finished I fixed the grammer did you see it? Ararat arev 03:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yup nayem hesa, By the way you really have to support two sides you can't just support one because theres always evidence on both sides.
 * Hasa, Hurrian-Armani, Urartian-Armenians Nareklm 03:23, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Hurrian
Here make it on this page its on your user page start it and lets see what you got.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ararat_arev/Hurrian-Aryan Nareklm 20:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't say anything i don't know why your argueing you should really provide a link to the article or re-make it so i can see. Nareklm 21:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I said provide a link. Nareklm 21:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well you got me confused. Ill fix some stuff on it. Nareklm 21:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The article doesn't make sense make sure its Encyclopedia format meaning you don't put your own personal view or add something "like symbol! that means we are phyrgian mix". If you work on it like making sense the beginning we might go somewhere the references are good. Nareklm 21:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Where are you I almost finished it. It looks good man a lot of info, sources, and references. Ararat arev 23:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I have read it. I have read it over and over. I have read all you have given me over and over and over ad nauseum. Can you not grasp that it's not my fault that I don't come to your conclusions? If you are not willing to question your own sources and your own interpretation of your sources, it is impossible for you to be a helpful editor. Thanatosimii 01:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * No. I have read it. It's not hard to read fast, because it's the same stuff you've always given me before. The claims you have made are not true and are not what the sources are saying! Thanatosimii 01:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Not five hours ago I saw that sun symbol for the King of Assyria, and I know it to be Roman too. It was widespread and has no bearing on ethnicity. And if you bring up that Hur=fire nonsense once more, my brain will explode. We do not know what Khurri means in Hurrian! "Root words" never, never never never mean anything by themselves. Thanatosimii 01:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Nothing by themselves. In fact, Egyptian isn't particularly agglunative at all, and if there's to be differences in meanings of similar words, it's done by determinitives and probably had some difference in the vowels. However, I was speaking philologically. You cannot say two languages are related because of lexical similarities, it is an unaccepted form of lingusitics that has never passed peer review, specifically because two neighboring cultures will trade words. Thanatosimii 03:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Ra isn't the creator of heavan and earth... you obviously don't know anything about egyptian religion. Ramses, by the way, is a name, and egyptian names are sentances, not words. Ra Ms Sw means Ra is the one who gave birth to him. That's a sentance, not a word composed of root parts. Ararat Arev, I can read Hurrian if I put my mind to it. You can't. You clearly know nothing about it. Stop insulting people who are experts. Thanatosimii 03:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I dont know about Ancient Egypt or Egyptian religion? You haven't even asked me and I even haven't showed you. Is this the way you talk to people usually? Ararat arev 04:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Only those who will not think they know more than they do. Your claim that Ra was creator of heavan and earth is false, and if you can't get that much right, you clearly have no familiarity with Ancient Egyptian religion. Now as to your claim concerning who here knows Hurrian, that's laughable. I know hurrian. You don't. Please translate "Ondon Manenan Sheniwue Pasisthi" if you know "Your language." Thanatosimii 05:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

First off you said you dont know Armenian (Hurrian). Second that is totally misspelled. Ararat arev 05:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

And I dont need to tell you how I know its misspelled. Ararat arev 05:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

And third, I told you the very words of Mitanni names are in Armenian to this day. Ararat arev 05:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

And since you didnt read my page about Indians also being Aryan and migrated from the Armenian Highlands. Those words are Indian mixed as well and you misspelled them. Ararat arev 05:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

No, Ararat Arev, that's plain garden variety Hurrian out of a genuine hurrian document, no less, and most certainly is not Armenian. But since you claim that Hurrian is Armenian, you ought to be able to read that. If you'd like it in the cuneaform syllabery, it's "un-du-u-un Ma-ni-e-na-an še-e-ni-iw-wu-ú-e pa-aš-ši-i-it-hi" Thanatosimii 05:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I told you that is mixed with Arevmdahye which is different sounding words that I dont know all the words. Arevmdahyes would know it actually. Not all Armenians speak the same. I told you there are Persian Armenian and Arevmdahye is Western Armenians. And those words are mixed with Indian which they are also Hurrian or Aryan people. If you know Hurrian than what is Artatama mean? or Tushratta? or Hurri/Khurri. If Hurri means what I know it means than you have to realize that is Armenian roots. Ararat arev 05:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

See other people know how to read Hurrian as well. So for you to say they dont know is none sense. Artatama is translated "most righteous" and I told you Arta is righteous in Armenian. Tusratta "ten chariots" in Armenian ten is Tus. What is the issue here that you dont get? There are other people besides Armenians that know also and they translated them. Hurri translates to sun or fire which is Armenian. Ararat arev 05:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * They would not know it because all those are strongly agglunative words and no dialect of Armenian shows any, any traces of Agglunitization at all. Noone knows the meaning of Artatama. I don't, and you don't. Noone, noone at all, knows. Noone knows the meaning of Tushratta. Not I, and not you. These are words that have not been "cracked" yet. And above all, noone knows what Hurri means. I cite Speiser, to show you what he really does say,
 * An attempt to establish the etymology of Hurri was mad by Hronzy. He would connect the name with Akk. Huru, "hole." But apart from the inherent improbablility that the Hurrians had borrowed and Akkadian word for their national designation, this etymology is refuted by the fact that the basic stem was hurw, a patently un-Akkadian combination. Ungnad recognized the Hurrian charecter of this stem. His suggestion that the name may have meant originally somthing like "Alliance, union" lacks, however, the slighest support. All that we can surmise at present is that the name was based on an appelative of unknown meaning.
 * Noone knows what Hurri means. No one. No one whatsoever. Do you understand now? Anyone who is telling you the hurrian meanings of these three names is either mistaken or lying to you. Not that you've even provided one source to back up these claims besides armenianhighland's crankery. Thanatosimii 05:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Look man I just told you the very Hurri-Mitanni seal you saw that seal I think 1000 times ? You see the sun with the wings or not?? Hurri in Armenian means Sun with the wings I cant translate it thats what it means its Sun wings. Hurri-Mitanni's sun-god with wings is the exact thing. And as for the Mitanni kings names its on the Mitanni page. Sanskritic interpretations of Mitanni royal names render Shuttarna as Sutarna ("good sun"), Baratarna as Paratarna ("great sun"), Parsatatar as Parashukshatra ("ruler with axe"), Saustatar as Saukshatra ("son of Sukshatra, the good ruler"), Artatama as "most righteous", Tushratta as Dasharatha ("having ten chariots"?), and, finally, Mattivaza as Mativaja ("whose wealth is prayer"). Some scholars believe that not only the kings had "Aryan" names. Ararat arev 06:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * No, Hurri does not mean sun with wings, any more than Roman means wolf, china means dragon, or egypt means falcon. I don't buy anything you say. You must cite it and then the citation must actually say what you say it says afterward. You can show me that seal ten thousand times and it won't change the fact that that's not what it means. Speiser says noone knows what it means, so cite somthing or be quiet. Furthermore, Mitanni's national deity was teshub the storm god, not a sun god. As to this "some scholars" business, it isn't cited and I am inclined to believe that it's bunk, especially because I have never seen it discussed in any scholarly literature on the subject. Even if it weren't, those names would accordingly be from the Indo-aryan ruling class and thus not in hurrian, and then your arugment would fall through. Thanatosimii 06:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Another thing language changes over course of 1000's of years. The words are not the exact. They evolve dont you get it? What is your own language by the way? Dont you realize you cant read your own language 1000's of years back cause the words evolved?? Ararat arev 06:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Seriously answer this. What is your language and can you read your language 1000's of years back to be precise 3500 years ago? No No. No. Ararat arev 06:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You claimed to be able to read hurrian because hurrian was armenian. I gave you hurrian. I don't claim to be able to read Old english, so I don't expect myself to be able to understand it. Incedentally, I can read a fair amount of old english too, if I put myself to it. However, the fact that words evolve does not prove that these particular words evolved. Furthermore, stop expecting answers all snap snappity. We don't all talk as fast as you. Thanatosimii 06:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly!! See Hurrian-Aryan is the same. This is the key to the solving the puzzle. Ararat arev 06:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

And I know about Teshub and it was carried to Urartu's time also. Ararat arev 06:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

No! There is NO SUCH THING as Hurrian-Aryan What will it take for you to understand? Hurrians and Aryans are entierly different people. The rulers were Aryans, the subjects were hurrians. This is Mitanni 1001 here. There is no such group of peoples called Hurrian-Aryans, you are totally uninformed about mitannian history. Start learning or just stop bothering us with your nonsense! Thanatosimii 06:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Dbachmann is a busy editor. Technically, I don't need to talk either, I simply want you to start understanding how the history of the middle east and basic lingustics works so that I won't keep finding you all over other pages I watch messing them up with crackpots. Now I'm going to bed. They've locked Armenia due to this editing you do, and that's bound to get Dab's attention. Thanatosimii 06:23, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

This is what im telling you. You just answered for me. Aryan's were there also. So I told you we Armenians are "Aryan" and we call ourselves by "Aryan" or "Aryaee". Please understand that much? I told you Aryan is what we say to each other we dont call ourselves by the "term" Indo-"European". Are you actually Indo-Eureopean and you call yourself by that term yes or no? Ararat arev 06:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Now you just answered yourself. I don't call myself Indo-european. You don't call yourself Indo-european. Both of us are. You may call yourself Aryan, but it does not change the fact that Armenian is either a distant relative of Greek or an isolate, not a relative of Indo-Aryan. It doesn't matter what you call yourself, it matters what you are. Thanatosimii 06:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

We are from Armenian tribes from the time of Haik which is 25th century BC. The Armenian or "Armani" tribes names were "Armens" and we are "Ar"yan. There are no different Aryan we dont just make up words to call ourselves. The word Aryan is Aryan there is no difference. Just as you realize Persians are Aryan and Indians too. Go ask a Persian and he will give you enough proof. Or an Indian. Or a Kurd. Go ask them about Armenians being Aryan too. Also those Greeks you said about those Phrygians came later and mixed with us during the Persian rule. Ararat arev 06:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

No, you don't understand. Indo-Aryan is a specific technical term and it is totally irrelevant if you call yourselves Aryans, it doesn't make you Indo-Aryan. The Indo-Aryan language group is a specific term refering only to Indic languages and a few relatives which stayed largely to the east of the Iranian Languages. Now, I'm going to bed.Thanatosimii 06:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

"Indo"-Aryan's are Persians and Indians who migrated south from our land the Aryan peoples land Armenian Highlands(land of Ararat) the mountain where the rebirth of nations took place. Ararat arev 06:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

And like I said since I showed you the Sanskritic interpretations which the names Tusratta "ten chariots" the Tus is ten in Armenian, but in Indian or Persian I asked my cousin in Iran she said its "Daa". Now which is more near you tell me? If you cant figure that out you are lying to me and you have other reasons behind your back to prevent the truth. Another one is Artatama which is "most righteous" Arta is righteous in Armenian, and this one for sure in Persian and Indian is not even close as I heard my cousin say the word it was "way" off. So what does this tell you again? So I told you techinically they say its "Indo"-Aryan but its actually the Armenian Aryans rather than Persians or Indians or Kurds that were from "Hurri"-Mitanni. I put Hurri again cause I have no doubt about it that its Armenian tribes who went from Armenia at the 3rd millennium BC. I showed you many scholars who mention this and I told you at around that time the Armenian trib the Armens were there and Haik our forefather was at that time in Armenia the Armenian Highlands. Ararat arev 08:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * All of which are nationalistic myths and falsehoods. Especially the sanscrit things. That is almost certainly not what the names mean. Thanatosimii 15:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, never, never accuse another editor of lying. And respect the education, how many times do I have to tell you that I've been formally trained in this stuff? Thanatosimii 15:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I will find the exact sources and references from one Im going to say and let Dbachmann know also. The Phrygians were from the Hittite Armenian tribes which came back to their homeland Armenia. That is what happened, they came back and mixed with the other Armenians in Armenia. We are not Greek and we are not invaders coming to that land. I told you what does 2492 BC mean of Haik and Armenian tribes Armen who were there in the 3rd millennium. Even Dbachmann should know about that 2492 BC since if anything was wrong he immediatly removes from the page. But as you see he has kept Armenia's date of 2492 BC of our forefather Haik beginning the Armenian "nation" not ethnicity even. The ethnicity or heritage of Armenian's is even older than 2492 BC. Ararat arev 18:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

And remember you said you cant rely on "Greek historians?" I hope you remember I'll show you in our discussion history you said that. So this Herodotus is another Greek historian saying about Phrygians coming to Armenia without fully understanding what it means. As I said they were from Armenian tribes in the Hittites that later came back to join the other Armenians. Ararat arev 18:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not going into this foolishness again. I expect you to come up with a book on mitanni which says those names are from the sanscrit such and such, and then I will evaluate it's legitimacy. That's the way things work here. Reliable sources. Not "I think this means..." You cannot establish what the hurrian names mean without finding hurrian references to them. We have far better information on other foreign ruling class names, and we can't do anything with those, so we certainly can't do anything with these. Yes, "Most Certainly". Thanatosimii 18:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Another thing is you still didnt give me an answer on your Assyrian and Roman pictures you were going to show me of the Mitanni seal and the Tigran the Great crown of the 2 eagles facing the 8 ray sun?? Where is it? Show me the exact symbol which Mitanni had and Tigran had on his crown. Show me please I would love to see it. Ararat arev 18:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Hurrian ancient Armenian language
You cannot even understand Armenian from 1,000 year back (Classical Armenian or grabar) because it has evolved over time as with all languages. Can he read in today's English old Anglo-Saxon from say 500 A.D.?

How does he expect for you to read Armenian from 3,500 years ago in sentence structure. YES you will understand words here and there but not the sentences.

Look at this. It is in 'Hurrian' and says Iese (Es) ini (Ayn) pili (Peghel) agubi (Jur). Which says Es Ayn Peghetsi Jrantske. Once linguists like Rafayel Ishkhanyan openned this you see that it is ancient Armenian evolved form that is. You cannot understand it like grabar (Classical Armenian) unless you are have studied it. Ararat arev 18:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Hurrian ancient Armenian (We can't even read 1000 year back)
Can we talk on your page instead?

Ok Tigran its you I know Ararat arev 19:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Listen this is important we need to remove those parts that Dbachmann put. They are putting the same thing as those turks did earlier. And I explained so many times to them that we are not from 500 BC. But he himself approves of the 2492 BC for example of Haik and I have all the references and Im getting more about the Hurrian-Aryan link etc etc. I told you we cant even read 1000 years back. Ararat arev 19:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

And another thing I told you Tigran's crown has the exact Mitanni seal and the Hurrian words are used in Armenian to this day. Ararat arev 19:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Hurrian and Aryan is none other than we currently saying (K)hye and hye. The different sounds like Arevmdahyes and Arevelahyes. Im Persian Armenian and I know how differenet Arevmdahyes are speaking. Ararat arev 19:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Hurrian in "Har"an went west in 3rd millennium a little after the Akkadian war with us the Armani which Persians to this day call us by. And as you know Armens tribe in  the 3rd millennium. We are not from 500 or 600 BC. The Phrygians Armenian tribes from the Hittites came later on back to Armenia to join the rest of the Armenians there in the homeland. We didnt vanish in thin air. Hurrian Armenians didnt vanish in thin air. Ararat arev 19:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Another thing a "social" change happened during that time of the "Persian rule" 500 or 600 BC when the Phrygians (Armenian tribes from Hittites)came back. Ararat arev 19:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Help me find references for these. Ararat arev 19:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the archive. I didnt know how to do archive. Im new here. Inchbess enk anoom? Ararat arev 19:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I will teach you later. Let's forget about the history part. TEll me, did you read my Welcome message?--TigranTheGreat 19:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Forget about our history? And let these guys follow the Turks view of 500 BC? Ararat arev 19:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, for the next 10-20 minutes. So, did you read my welcome message?--TigranTheGreat 19:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Where is your welcome message chdesam Ararat arev 19:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

That's ok. I just readded again (someone must have deleted). When you have time, click the "five pillars" link--that's the most important thing on Wiki. From there, browse the links that are contained in it. Just take a break from editting, and read for several hours. That's what I did when I first came here. It will help you hugely.--TigranTheGreat 19:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you put in my archive? And Im really busy on clearing our history for our people and others as well. Ararat arev 19:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Clearing like making the truth be revealed you know? You realize this lie of the turks has got into these others too? I mean there is scholars now saying these things this none sense. The Phrygians by Greek scholars which Thanasimii himself said in my discussion history you can see that he says they are not reliable. He just proved himself wrong there. Ararat arev 19:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Many times he was wrong of himself. For example he couldnt even give me Assryian or Roman pictures when he said they have the same Mitanni seal and the Tigran crown same exactly symbol. I told him show me if it even exists. He couldnt answer cause he knew it was wrong there is no Assyrian or Roman seal or symbol like our Armenian symbols of Mitanni and Tigran's crown to name just one example. Ararat arev 19:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

If you want me to talk to you, we gotta stop talking about our History and Tsunami. The welcome message is just added above. Will you read what I told you? It will help.--TigranTheGreat 19:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok I'll read it. Does it mean I cant talk to you? I mean will you atleast do something about that part they put of the turks putting? Or we just going to sit and do nothing and wait until they who knows remove more? Ararat arev 19:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

And im putting it in archive. Ararat arev 20:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Right now I just want to have a conversation with you. Like a fellow Armenian to an Armenian. And don't put the welcome message in your Archive. People keep them on the Talk page.

So, tell me more about yourself (and this is a public forum, so others can see it). Where are you now? And how old? You go to school? --TigranTheGreat 20:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Im 26 I went to computer college have a Bachelor of Science degree in Computers. I mainly learned on my own by experience though. I recently got into studying our history like few months ago. I saw a zrageer on the Armenian channels and recorded them and Vardanank also is on Monday nights at 11pm last night. Interesting they were discussing the same things about Hurrian Armenian language. They always have historians (budmabuns) on the show which is located in Armenia. They have a direct Connectto COmmunications link so we watch over here and call by 818. I live in Glendale you? Ararat arev 20:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I live in LA, and am 27. And I watch channel 26 too:) What college did you go to? And are you Beyrutahay:)?--TigranTheGreat 20:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

ICT College in LA, corner of Vermont and Wilshire. And Vardanank is on 31 now in Glendale I dont know if 26 is there? 26 is AMGA, but 31 is the other Armenian channel you know like Mer show etc etc. Im Parsgahye but I was born here in Glendale. Did you go to Hoover? Ararat arev 20:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You talked to Narek before? They removed our pages man. Narek made nice pages and I put the info there also. Narek is from Boston now he said he was in Glendale but moved. We need to work together to clear up our history. Ararat arev 20:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Did you see this one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartian-Armenians and this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ararat_arev/Hurrian-Aryan ? Ararat arev 20:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

This is a key point:

"How do you expect for me to read Armenian from 3,500 years ago in sentence structure. YES I will understand words here and there but not the sentences.



Look at this. It is in 'Hurrian' and says Iese (Es) ini (Ayn) pili (Peghel) agubi (Jur). Which says Es Ayn Peghetsi Jrantske. Once linguists like Rafayel Ishkhanyan openned this you see that it is ancient Armenian evolved form that is. You cannot understand it like grabar (Classical Armenian) unless you are have studied it. " Ararat arev 20:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, you see this they're putting these references in that part in Antiquity:

"^ M. Chahin, The Kingdom of Armenia, London, 2001, p. 189; Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia, v. 5, Yerevan, 1979, p. 106, v. 6, Yerevan 1980, p. 134.; Rafael Ishkhanyan, "Illustrated History of Armenia," Yerevan, 1989; Martiros Kavoukjian, "Armenia, Subartu and Sumer", Montreal, 1987." These are scholars and historians who explain of Hurrian being Armenian. Its not just based on our language you realize right? Our culture our heritage goes back 1000's of years like our dances for example. Did you read the Culture sections of our dances I added? Ararat arev 20:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I wrote to you that I was going to lunch, but you keep typing, and there was edit conflict. Do u have yahoo messenger or something? This is too slow.--TigranTheGreat 20:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I forgot to mention I went to Chamilian Armenian School from kindergarden to 4th grade. Did you go? Ararat arev 20:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah yahoo messenger is d4niel11 Ararat arev 21:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Hurrian language and crowns.
I can't give you the Assyrian symbol because the universe doesn't revolve around the internet. It's in my professor's collection from off of the walls of Asshurbanipal's palace, I believe. As for how languages change, it is words that change, not sentance structure and syntax. If you can read the words but not the syntax, it means Hurrian is not Armenian. If you could recognize the syntax but not the words, it could be. And for your information, prior to the last two millenia, languages haven't changed a lot. Anyone who reads old Egyptian can read Late egyptian, 2500 years later, with a little difficulty. Greek has changed less since the mycenean period than english has changed since Chaucer. You just don't seem to understand the rules of lingusitics. Thanatosimii 21:23, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Hurrian
It doesn't matter your comparing similarities to facts and history you can't do that. Also Armenians are a break of culture and the influence from many diffrent tribes than we could have used hurrian words. Nareklm 22:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Today, all these aforementioned nations are considered to be, in varying degrees, proto-Armenians, that is, we modern day Armenians are direct descendants of the remnants of those ancient tribes. Es jshdootoon eh yev ozooom es hima me hasgazeer bytes verjn barz gleenee. Ararat arev 22:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Narek, asam, amen mer budmabunner es emanooom en mer budmootooonen eh mer bedootooneern en. Ararat arev 22:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Hurrian hedo gnaz arevmoodk, Haikeedz hedo er vor gnazeen mer zegher Hurrian zeghereh. Haiken ooo Armen zeghern arden gayeen edegh. Ararat arev 22:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You do know your rejecting alot of important historian facts? How in the world were phyrgians armenian tribes that is not true. Nareklm 22:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

We still need to fix that part in Armenia#Antiquity that is not sounding right. Key points to consider:

1: Phrygians as I said these Armenian tribes from Hittites moved back to Armenia. 2: Armenian tribes Hurrians didnt vanish in thin air (Urartu (Ararat) didnt vanish that is Armenians) 3: We have been in Armenia even longer than Haik's 2492 BC battle with Bel. The Armen(Armeni) tribes. 4: All our historians know this as truth of our budmootoon 5: Indo-"European" is not the term we use its "Aryan" and that is the same as Hurrian since they are "Aryan" from "Ar"menia from "Ar"arat from Armenian Highland.

Ararat arev 22:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Stop trying to convince me just because there Armenians, I have my own opinions. Well they are mixed with hitties. But i still reject that they are Armenians or anywhere near theres not enough proof. Nareklm 22:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I know that buddy, There has to be evidence do you understand? (Scripts,Textures,Blood,Inscriptions etc) there isn't enough proof end of story. Theres all kinds of theories . Nareklm 23:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Can you stop messaging me? Go message someone who actually is very knowledgeable im done with this so please dont reply. Nareklm 23:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * No, Ararat, that's not the way it works. Migration has nothing to do with language change. Thanatosimii 23:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes it does. Why are Western Armenians of even today speaking different than me? Im Persian Armenian sometimes I cant understand certain words. You are wrong. Ararat arev 23:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * No, Ararat, that's not the way it works. If you cannot interact logically but keep putting up Original Research and your opinions, I feel no qualms with enacting Tigran's suggestion to ignore you. Thanatosimii

23:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Logical? You arguing with facts? I need to clarify this point cause this is it. I told you Arevmdahyes (Thats Lebanese, Syrian Armenians of today) speak different than Persian Armenians which thats me. Migration "does" have to do with it. Ararat arev 00:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

What dont you understand about Western Armenians speaking different than Persian Armenians? This is "migration". Egyptians never migrated. What is so hard to understand? Ararat arev 00:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

That's a Correlation-Causation fallacy. Thanatosimii 00:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

When a person speaks in the pure form of the Artsakh dialect of Armenian TODAY I can hardly make out ANY words from it...How do you expect to understand Armenian that was spoken almost 4,000 years ago. Like I said you cannot even understand Armenian from 500 years back only words, and YES ESPECIALLY ROOT WORDS you will understand if you know the context but if you don't know the context or you have no training like in grabar you will not even understand the words because you don't know the sentence structure and syntax. Ararat arev 00:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * In modern times, languages change fast. In ancient times, languages don't change very fast at all. You can't pin that on migration. I am an expert, you are not, please stop bothering me. Thanatosimii 01:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Reliable Sources
What you have been adding to Mitanni is not from a reliable source. A good rule of thumb is this: If it contradicts established scholarly opinion and doesn't say explicitly why, interacting with the previously established mainstream, it isn't Reliable. The Egyptians never called Mitanni Nairi. Nairi and Naharin come from Nhr, they are not identical to Nhr. If they were, then according to the rule, "If A=B and B=C, then A=C, then A=C", you would be right. However, if B creates both A and C, then A is not necesarrily C. Nahrin and Nairi are no more the same than Kaiser is Tzar. Furthermore, your source stating that Hurrian was not the native language of the Hurrians disagrees with the majority. Unless he has some qualification, it cannot be in Wikipedia because it is not reliable. Please respond on Mitanni's talk page, where comments are supposed to be, not on mine, where comments concerning pages' contents rarely belong. Thanatosimii 20:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Armenia highland website
You do know that website is written in a form of a nationalist view. Nareklm 01:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You sound beirutsi lol. Nareklm 01:20, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Voch :) Yev me bajanee inchoo bajaness? Hima armenianhighland.com do chess siroom chess endoonoom ayd es asoom? Ararat arev 01:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

yes sirum et website :D Nareklm 01:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)