User talk:Arrorro

Port of Haikou
Hi. You just moved Haikou New Port to Port of Haikou saying in the lede:  "...It is compose of three port areas, Haikou New Port(海口新港区), 、港区3个港, Haikou Xiuying (海口秀英港区) and Macun (马村)..."

Those three are very far apart. In fact, most of Haikou separates the first two, and Macun is 40 km away. Where is the source that says all three are part of one single port called Port of Haikou? Thanks, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 14:43, 19 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Here, from the Hainan Harbor and Shipping Holding Co. website http://www.hngh.com.cn/gsjs/default.aspx ...公司对拥有的海口秀英港区、海口新港区、马村港区3个港区实行统一规划、统一建设、统一经营、统一管理 (The Company is the owner of the Haikou Xiuying Port Area, the Haikou Xingang Port Area, Macun Port Area, 3 Port Areas implementing an integrated program, integrated construction, integrated operation and integrated management). Here too, same language from Hainan gov. http://www.hainan.gov.cn/data/news/2008/02/46886/. The plan is to merge Haikou with Yangpu port, so in a few years it will be even more spread out (may be just called "Port of Hainan" by then):http://www.infinitycargo.com/index.php/zh-CN/home-cn/104-news-and-events/news/213-hainan-provincial-port-throughput-surpasses-100-million-teu-in-2011


 * Problem is that "Port" doesn't mean "contiguous bunch of docks" anymore (that's a "Port Area"), but an aggregate of terminals under the same operator, operators that in China have been consolidating in the last few years. The Beibu Gulf port is now spread over 100km or so, Meizhou Bay Port over c.150km as the crow flies, something like 1000km of coastline. Shanghai is spread over a wazillion areas and inland waterways, etc. Not just China, of course, the Port of South Louisiana and Port of New York and New Jersey aren't all that much simpler!


 * BTW, was it you that took those nice photos from the Xiuying and Haikou Xingang articles? If you're still in Hainan, could you donate more? Especially Yangpu port, if you have them.Arrorro

I've reverted your edits and move on the Xingang Port article as they are incorrect. Please see my comment on the edit or contact me if you need further clarification. Best, ► Philg88 ◄ star.png 19:16, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
 * No prob, I just want to clarify the status of the various ports. The stuff I can find treats Xingang, Xiuying and Macun as "Port Areas" of a consolidated port. See this http://www.hngh.com.cn/gsjs/default.aspx and the post above, and the stats of "Haikou Port" clearly report combined throughput. Is Haikou Xingang administered as an independent port? A separate operator or port owner from the other three, leasing out to terminal operators? The distinction between "port" and "port area" is confusing as hell, but significant. At first sight it seems that the 2005 merger created a port with three port areas, out of three independent ports, what did actually happen?


 * According to the this recent gov report http://www.hainan.gov.cn/hn/yw/jrhn/201312/t20131226_1130009.html the Xingang area appears to be renamed "海甸港区" and a fourth area has been added "新海港区" that covers the Nangang ferry port and the new wharfs they are building. It's confusing, so if either Ms. Frobisher or you can clarify it, I'd be very thankful. Arrorro


 * Ah, found the press release for the renaming and extra port area.http://roll.sohu.com/20110616/n310375260.shtml

Hi Arrorro and thanks for understanding why I reverted the article edits. As you say, the situation is a bit confusing and isn't helped that the "official" translations of the two dock facilities in downtown Haikou use the word "Wharf" on the road signs (Xingang Wharf, Xiuying Wharf) while Macun is called a port. For the purposes of Wikipedia, the most logical naming convention is to use Xingang Port, Xiuying Port and Macun Port even though they are not strictly speaking the correct literal translations (In the same way that we refer to Haikou as Haikou and not as "Sea Port"). As for the operational structure, the two Haikou facilities are owned by the Haikou Port Group (海口港集团公司) and the Hainan Ocean Transport Group (海南省海运总公司) respectively while Macun to the west of the city is run by the Macun Port Management Company (马村港管理公司). All three are part of the Hainan Port and Airport Service Group (海南港航控股有限公司) which was set up by the Provincial Committee of the CPC in 2005 and falls under the aegis of the State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission (SASAC). Since then there have been some redevelopments, which is what you see in the press release you found. I hope that this clarifies things but please give me a shout if you need any more info. Best, ► Philg88 ◄ star.png talk 05:54, 20 January 2014 (UTC)


 * The complexity of ownership and operation of the various (often city-size) port areas of a nominal port (not to mention the translating mess of port, harbor, wharf, pier, terminal, etc) is common to all ports in China that I know of. The issue is definitional, how to call the "Sub-Provincial/Prefecture-level docks & moorings", i.e. the 200 sq km Momma Ports that get reported as business, planning and statistical units, vs the "county/township-level docks & moorings", i.e. what people actually call "ports". I am trying to replicate the xx港 vs xx港区 distinction, but frankly, *they* are not consistent when they translate their own names either (and mergers make the mess worse every time). There are few antecedents to form naming conventions for main port/sub port areas in Wikipedia articles because, well, there have been barely any articles on China's ports. I dunno, "Port" vs "Porticles"? "Portettes"? "Portitos"?


 * The issue for me is that I am trying to slooowly slooowly create and fatten up the skeletal wikipedia articles of the major ports of China, trying to cover all the major ports (at least 50Mt of throughput, or designation as a critical port by the CMSA, or special pleading cases like Macau). Haikou Port (all the entitites run by the Hainan Harbor and Shipping Holding Co) definitely ranks (and when it does pass the vaunted "亿吨大港" mark, we'll sure hear about it from the govt), but the individual sub-units don't. I do think that there is a wikipedic reason to do a Port of Haikou article, regardless of the continuity of individual ports/port areas/sub-ports' articles' names and content. I'll probably just wait until they merge with Yangpu.

One bit of (extreme) nitpickiness: per that Hainan govt release, shouldn't "Haikou Xingang Port" be moved to "Haikou Haidian Port"? God save us from renaming-happy bureaucrats.

Ah, consistency, not something you will find much of when it comes to the Chinese government naming things in English. Whilst I understand the logic of your suggestion about "Haikou Port" it seems counter-intuitive because Xingang Port, Xiugang Port and Macun Port are discrete locations and some distance apart. Even worse, there is no such thing as Haikou Port (海口港） so how would the interwiki linking with Chinese be done? Perhaps the solution is to have a template at the bottom of each place listing "Ports of Haikou" or even better "Ports of Hainan" with each appropriate city/county having a section?

BTW, the latter part of this thread should probably be moved to the talk page of Xingang Port pending what happens next. Best, ► Philg88 ◄ star.png 07:41, 20 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Oops, sorry, don't know how to do the formal moving-a-thread thing. Okay, assuming this is eventually for general argumentation on the article page: Geographic spread is not an problem. Spread is the core is the semantic problem: two definitions of port. Port1: the ordinary usage in common speech: a contiguous bunch of ship docking spaces, preferably with a gate and boundaries. Port2: an number of wharfs under the formal control of the same Port Authority, no contiguity required at all (well, not much). The Port of London has wharfs in Essex; the Port of New York and New Jersey, as it says on the tin, has terminals in two states spread over 1000km of coastline. See Layout of the Port of Tianjin for an example of spread and size. This *administrative* definition is the one used when you see "Port of Mumbai shipped 3 lakhs of street-legal elephants in 2013" or "Port of Copenhagen sued by Mermaid Federation of the Baltic for sexual harassment". It's the super-level unit that makes the plans，gives the marching orders, and that counts in the league tables.


 * Port2 is most commonly found within one municipality or political unit,but not always (aside: Port of Tacoma used to mean it was owned by the municipality, Tacoma Port used to mean it was private but on the neighborhood. The distinction is not much observed these days). In China, to make life hard, all Port Authorities were converted into SOEs in the 1990s and 2000s, usually you will see them called "XXX Port Group" but not always. Haikou seems a weird case. Authorities refer to "Haikou Gang" meaning the whole aggregate, as in the links I gave. What you call ports they call "port areas" (sub-ports maybe a better translation). But the Hainan H and S Company does not seem to have been formed the usual way, and the name seems to suggest they are shooting for a "Port of Hainan" rather than merely Port of Haikou. You say that the Hainan HSC does NOT run the Port as a planning, operations or branding unit, but leaves the units to run independently, which is weird. As far as I can piece together and speculate wildly, the story seems to be: The 海南海口港务局 became 海口港集团公 in 1993, so "Port of Haikou" was synonymous with "Haikou Xingang". I (wildly) guess that Haikou Xiuying remained independent for obscure bureaucratic turf reasons (ferry docks were half-owned by Guangdong??). Then in 2005 they merged it with the Xingang and with Macun (which is a different town so was not under the same authority at the time of corporatization). Instead of renaming the new unit "Port of Haikou" or "Port of Qiongzhou Strait" or something, the call the corporation Hainan Harbor and Shipping and sort of assume the Haikou Port part, maybe signaling intentions (another wild guess). As you can see by the huge number of insane guesses, messy situation.

So maybe, yeah, just wait for developments. For all I can see, they do intend to merge Haikou and Yangpu, maybe call it "Port of Northern Hainan" or the like. If you think it sounds weird to call Macun, Xiuying and Xingang the same port, wait until you have to call Yangpu that, too! Who knows, maybe Basuo too.

Hi folks. Okay, now I'm totally confused. Are we to leave things as they are for a while or what? Please advise. Let me know if I can help.

Yes, I took pretty much all the port photos. I'll try to get Macun pics if I'm in the area.

So, do you think we could paste/link/move this entire discussion at Talk:Port of Haikou?

Cheers, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:35, 24 January 2014 (UTC) But it should move back to Xingang Port first :) Best ► Philg88 ◄ star.png 09:12, 24 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Not sure about procedure, maybe it would be easier to cut and paste the article content that is now in"Port of Haikou" to the-now-redirect page "Port of Haikou Xingang" and I will make a skeletal stub on the Port of Haikou page (I will get back to it when I have more time to do research, I suspect I'll need to call someone in the know for references. Welcome to the shadowlands of bureaucratic reform and naming practices). Again, no idea if that's easier than whatever the revert procedure for botched redirects is. Thanks for your patience, and sorry for wasting some of your editing time. Arrorro (talk)

Hey Arrorro, its no big deal. You did what you did in good faith and no Wikipedian is perfect :). I would suggest you don't just cut and paste the content because you will lose or overwrite the Talk Page history (I think). When you have time, please ask an admin to move it back or post a request at Requested moves as an uncontested technical request. Best, ► Philg88 ◄ star.png 17:38, 24 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Done. Haikou New Port. Is everything in order? Did I do the appropriate thing? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:00, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Looking good :) ► Philg88 ◄ star.png 10:41, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Taku Forts
Hey, Arrorro. It looks like you haven't been active for a while, but I was wondering if you could tell me what source(s) you used for the information in to Taku Forts? I am trying to improve the references on that article. Thanks! --Difference engine (talk) 19:49, 7 June 2015 (UTC)


 * And this map. --Itu (talk) 20:09, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Source for Commons:File:Port of Tianjin Container Logistics Center Map.svg
Sorry sir, the "Source" for Commons::File:Port of Tianjin Container Logistics Center Map.svg is badly written. May I ask what this image is based on please? Thank you. --Tomchen1989 (talk) 09:26, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Your opinion please...
. I saw your edit... I recently uploaded another image of the three gorges dam... do you think that image shows the famous three gorges ship-lift?

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 19:00, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

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 * The article shall include more than the equipment list when complete, and it is a very high level unit of the PLA. It makes no sense to have articles for individual divisions and not for the entire aviation corps. Arrorro (talk) 06:57, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

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Article style
Hello. I just took a look at the new article for grades in the Chinese armed forces, and have a few observations about the article style in general.


 * Avoid using manually bolded text beyond the article title and synonyms/alternate names (MOS:NOTBOLD.) Example: "Interim Regulations on the Management of Active Military Officers" does not need to be bolded in the body.
 * Keep section header text short and simple. (It also makes using them as links on Wikipedia and elsewhere on the web much easier.) Move the Chinese translations, abbreviations, little details, into paragraphs within the sections. Also take advantage of context. If the parent section is called "ABC", a child section doesn't need to be called "D of ABC", it can just be "D".
 * Avoid using capitalization terms that are not proper nouns (MOS:CAPS.) For example, rank titles are typically not capitalized when used by themselves (eg: "They are a major general", not "they are a Major General".) To be safe, provide/include references that use the Chinese term as a proper noun before using them as such (WP:NOR.)
 * Make sure sources used meet reliability criteria (WP:RS.) In the grades article references/sources list, I can see wiki's (WP:USERG) and non-expert self-published articles (WP:BLOGS) being used. If you're translating from the Chinese-language Wikipedia, don't used anything that isn't WP:CITEd by sources that are acceptable by the English-language Wikipedia's standards.

I'll be making some suggestions on the grades talk page soonish. I think that article needs a bit of cleanup. Cheers! - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 23:32, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

And about articles titles. Keep them WP:CONCISE and as close to WP:COMMONNAME as possible; they just need to be sufficiently unique identifiers. Don't use the official title of something as the article title if that makes the article title very long.

For example, looking through the red links in the Chinese armed forces grade article I found stuff like:


 * Military Facilities Construction Bureau of the Central Military Commission Logistics Support Department

And this is just a slightly shortened version of "Military Facilities Construction Bureau of the Logistics Support Department of the Central Military Commission".

Unless there's another high-level "Military Facilities Construction Bureau", the article title could be condensed to just "Military Facilities Construction Bureau" or "Military Facilities Construction Bureau (China)". The official title would be in the article lede.

This is why the title of the article Central Guard Regiment is not "People's Liberation Army Unit 61889". - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 20:15, 22 June 2024 (UTC)