User talk:Arsdelicata

PR Pasos
Hi Arsdelicata, there is already an article on the Paso Fino. Your material was very good, but there wasn't much of it, so I merged it into the main article and created a redirect. The Columbian strain hasn't as much material yet, and it makes no sense to have two separate articles on these horses at this point--there were two articles in the past and they were merged a couple years ago. I am aware that the two groups of aficionados appear not to care much for the others' horses and there have been several discussions about the issue in the past. So, if you want to add additional material or are not happy with the way your material was merged into the main article, feel free to discuss the issue further at Talk:Paso Fino. Thanks Montanabw (talk) 10:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your reply. If I were you, I'd do two things.  First, look over the way some of the best breed articles here are structured, for example, Thoroughbred, Haflinger (horse), Arabian horse and Appaloosa, all "good article" or "featured article" status, and will each give you an idea of the ideal for footnotes and sources, structure, etc.  Also look over the guidelines at Horse breeds task force to see how the breed articles should ideally be structured.  THEN, do a read over of the existing Paso Fino article, where I merged in your material, and offer any thoughts or comments you have for improving the article at Talk:Paso Fino.  The bottom line for me is to write articles that are factual and encyclopedia, not sounding like a breed promotional brochure! On this one, basically that there have been edit wars in the past over the Columbian Paso Fino people versus the Puerto Rican Paso Fino people and I think that debate is either best avoided, or if it MUST be addressed, then to do a fair, evenhanded summary of the position of each faction, with sources and all that.  (We occasionally have a similar problem at Andalusian horse between the "PRE" people and the people who go with the broader standard of the USA Registry...sigh).  Hope this helps.  Hope to see you on the talk page for the article!   Montanabw (talk) 06:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Montanabw thank you for your help, I will study those articles hard and as time lets me, add the info for a better article. The founding date for the Federation (1943) I see has been lost or removed. it is a verifyable and important date. But I will do more homework before returning. Arsdelicata (talk) 04:03, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Basically, you are on the right track, and anyone is "allowed" to do almost anything here, within limits. However, there is an informal thing that it is nice to have consensus on articles when multiple editors are working on them, and the "Five Pillars" of wikipedia and all the related guidelines also guide what we do.  Here, because the USA sort of blends the two strains of Paso Fino into one registry, and this IS English wikipedia, it makes sense to have one article for now, but it CAN (and possibly SHOULD) have sections explaining the two types and how they are different, as well as what traits they share in common.  So I'm all for adding more material here on the PR Pasos and the Columbian Pasos too.  The Peruvian Paso article seems to be doing OK on its own, a PP person comes in there and edits periodically and I do some cleanup and wordsmithing on what they add.  Likewise, we have NO articles on the   Colombian Trocha horse, Colombian Trote and Galope horse, nor the "Andadura" (or is that another name for the PR Paso??)  So if you wanted to add them to the List of horse breeds AFTER you create new articles, even if just stubs, on them, that would be fine, and much appreciated, actually.  (Here is an example of a stub article, but it contains enough basics to not get itself deleted:  Noma pony). The "Help" link to the left of the page can get you started on some of the wiki basic stuff, though you seem to have that down pretty good.  I'll be glad to tag along and fix anything you have trouble with or offer advice.  You sound like a potentially GREAT editor, so have fun.  Oh, and on the images, see WP:IMAGE.  In a perfect world, you will have images that are free use and suitable for upload at Wikimedia Commons, where they can be used across all wikiprojects worldwide!  (see http://www.commons.wikimedia.org ).  Montanabw (talk) 01:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for help and guidance, been re reading things, thinking a lot. the amount of work you have already on wiki is incredible. yes the diseases prominent in certain breeds should be listed to help education. I can see how breeders feel it should not though, and of course we have so little study on less known breeds.Arsdelicata (talk) 03:10, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I really just want to do an article on the Puerto Rican Paso Fino Horse breed. I have all the university stuff, books, history specifically for that. I have much less on others, but could help in time from my other books and magazines on the other pasos or horses. Anyhow, their history is unique and different from the others. My Simon & Schuster's Guide has all the java Ponies and the Criollo. But really I know nothing about them, so my help there will be limited. The gaited Horse magazine has some ok stuff on the Peruvian's specifically. Happy Holidays, I'll be back as time lets me. Arsdelicata (talk) 23:46, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I am wondering if there is an argument to making the Paso Fino article THE "Puerto Rican Paso Fino" article, in some respects. i.e. focus primarily on the Puerto Rican breed, as that appears to be the direction we are heading, with a section toward the end titled "Colombian Pasos" that covers all the other stuff we have been discussing. I'm not worried about doing anything at all on Peruvian Pasos, as they seem to have their own distinct breed registries and such and their article is already pretty complete.  We can explain how the "Puerto Rican Paso Fino" may be distinguished from the generic term "Paso Fino," if need be, but it really DOES sound like PRs are dominant.  Then, if the Colombian breeders come along later, we can expand that section with an eye to later breaking out new articles on the Colombian horses once there is an editor with enough knowledge and interest to do the work.  I'd want to hear what the Colombian folks have to say as to the "Paso" versus "Fino" versus "Paso Fino" question (particularly with PFHA seeming to encompass both) before dumping them out entirely.  I have an acquaintance I occasionally run into who owns a Colombian Paso Fino.  I may ask her if she has any resources on that part of the issue... Montanabw (talk) 01:05, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the The Puerto Rican Paso Fino horse should get it's own separate article. So I can work on that specifically, and post it's specific gait, type, characteristics etc. The Colombian Paso Fino IS dominant in the PFHA that is why the Pure Puerto Rican Paso Fino Federation of America was formed in the continental United States to register members of the Puerto Rican Paso Fino in the continental United States separately from the PFHA as is done with Peruvian Pasos now. I'd like to hear what the Colombian folks have to say too, but they are not speaking here, at least not yet. I have spoken with them on my own, and they call their Paso Fino Variety the Colombian Paso Fino, a variety of their Colombian Criollo horse. The subject is so complex that I may need to answer your specific questions for brevity. It sounds like the Puerto Rican Paso Fino is dominant because the PFHA adopted the word from the indigenous Puerto Rican horses and even parts of the gait explanations as well. Resources to get as much information on the Colombian Pasos, might be hard for me, as I can't drive to the university there...lol. But I will continue the search. This site you gave me, repeats the same propaganda set out by the PFHA and even lists them. Paso Fino description on the KHMArsdelicata (talk) 02:47, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Thoughts...
Hey Arsdelicata, I had an idea. Take a look at Talk:Sorraia and Sorraia. The gist of what's going on over there there is that a person with a lot of expertise on her breed is digging up sources and one of the other experienced wiki editors has been doing the wordsmithing on the actual article. (and I have been sitting on the sidelines critiquing but doing little actual work! LOL!)  This might be a way to collaborate on the PF article. You have the source material, I have the wordsmithing and techie brain...and have worked on a bunch of the other breed articles. What do you think?

What made it work at Sorraia was the use of references. Hardcopy books are fine as wikipedia sources, if we have ALL the citation material (title, author, publisher, ISBN, page number of cite, etc...). Look at how heavily footnoted the Sorraia article is. If you can keep adding sources, in any way, shape or form (web sites, hardcopy books --WITH PAGE NUMBERS-- etc.) I can do the "plug and chug." Basically, what I'm saying is that I trust you to have good information, but we need to find as many sources for it as possible. I know that I have found this to be a pain in the a** (aka PITA) on other horse articles because so very much knowledge is transmitted orally (and some web sites just repeat myths), but it CAN be done. Also, if you find information at places like the Kentucky Horse Park cite to be less than accurate, the trick is to find sources that rebut it. And, sometimes, we just have to "teach the controversy," with a weaselly "one side says this, but the other side says that." LOL! Montanabw (talk) 08:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ok Montanabw, will do. That way I can learn too from watching the way you do the plug and chug ... I liked to Sorraia article, very good! BTW I have pics of Pasos with zebra stripes on the legs, but it's not common. Thought I'd try and get a star like you guys have for a nice pic, even went to the zoo to take pics of ALL animals,looking for whatever is needed on wiki, so someday I can get a star that says that bit about " One of our finest images " LOL... well, back to pasos. I'll give the title, author, publisher, ISBN, page number of cite, etc... If I do it wrong or leave something out just let me know so I can come back and add that. Thanks for you help and patience with me. Arsdelicata (talk) 12:45, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * "Zebra" markings have their own article here: see dun gene and primitive markings.  We have another editor who is a real guru on color genetics (she is trying to figure out the tiger eye thing, by the way).  Fascinating stuff.  Confusing, complex, but fascinating.  Montanabw (talk) 16:53, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Nice, I added the pictures of the horse under primitive markings, because I read that creme gene horses as well as grulla, dun, etc can have the markings. I noticed there were no domestic horse pictures with the markings, so I added them to the discussion page. I looked up the name of the Paso Fino, who's picture is on the article, and he is exactly 7/8 pure Colombian and 1/8th Pure Puerto Rican on the tail dam end. I am exited to know if someone can explain those "Tiger Eyes" do keep me posted. I also added the oldest book so far on the Puerto Rican Paso Fino in sandbox rewrite. 1947 agriculture almanac section titled "The Puerto Rican Paso Fino Horse". I have to go back for some earlier newspaper articles and other stuff that is more time consuming to get, as it is on microfilm... but I am also working on getting the specific citations from the other books I already have. All that will be posted in the sandbox you made for us to work in. Happy New Year Arsdelicata (talk) 01:47, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


 * If the USA Paso Fino registry registers the horse as a "Paso Fino," then we need to label it a "Paso Fino." We can note the 7/8-1/8 thing, though.  It has to be understood that there is both a "Mainstream" and several alternative viewpoints on the Paso Fino in this country and rather than get into the fray, I'd prefer to take a "this group says X, but the other group says Y" approach.  There is a similar problem with the PRE/Andalusian crowd -- group A arguing that basically group B's animals are mongrel misfits and group B  arguing that group A is taking an extremist position for political reasons.   Montanabw (talk) 21:23, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Montanabw, Ok, we can do it that way, BTW I never picked up on the PRE/Andalusian thing from the article, maybe that is explained on the talk page. I'd say it is not so much a mongrel issue, as just that the bloodlines in the USA in the PFHA changed dramatically to Colombian Paso Finos especially since the 1980s. We desperately need the history of the Colombian Paso Fino in a book way and even the Trocha and Trote horses. But, eventually I feel they should have their own articles, the way alligator and caiman should eventually have their own species articles. To start with though, the country of Origin should be Colombia and Puerto Rico, because no breed called the Paso Fino ever existed in any other place before these two. Or maybe Colombia and United Stated, with Puerto Rico being Part of the United States. you can note the the 7/8-1/8 thing. Before or near the 1900s, Andalusians are said to have been crossed with the local Puerto Rican Horse, and In Colombia, a Lusitano was used. ( I don't have the exact import dates though.) Arsdelicata (talk) 23:13, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It makes sense that the American registry is where this issue begins. In the USA, even other horse people think there is just one "paso fino."  Maybe we need to split the history section into something like "Colonial origins", covering the Spanish foundation bloodstock of all lines, then "Latin American Development (i.e. short history on the divergence of each type up to the 20th century or so), then "The Paso Fino in the Continental United States" explaining the arrival of all Pasos in the mainland USA, the early years of the PFHA, the tendency to crossbreed the two types, and the shift from mostly Puerto Rican bloodlines in the 50s through the 70s, to mostly Colombian ones in the 80s (No one outside the PF world really knows about this) --if that's an accurate way to describe it, then add a section on "Paso Finos today" where we explain how the PPRPFs have begun to split off into their own organization (same registry or a different one?), the formation of the Trocha y Trote groups, the Colombian governmentgiving official recognition to certain names for breeds, etc...maybe that's too complicated, but my little pea brain can wrap around this basic structure.  It might take a while to get there, but I think we can do a basic outline that will work for the existing article and the details you cannot find can be fleshed out as others weigh in.   Montanabw (talk) 05:47, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The PRE/Andalusian thing is not in the article because the PRE crowd appears incapable of editing without severe hyperventilating and assorted hissy fits that require a revert! LOL! In theory, if they could make calm, sane, sourced and reasoned explanations, it could stay in.  But they too would have trouble getting the PRE split off from the main Andalusian article, as most outside authorities still classify the breed as a single entity with different bloodlines and different factions.  Likewise, I think the American Lipizzan breeders also allow more bloodlines into their registry than do the Austrians, who keep a tighter rein on their studbook.  Seems that there are similar problems everywhere.  You want real trouble, the Slovenian government actually tried to patent the name "Lipizzan" within the European Union to apply only to Lipizzans bred in Slovenia (as that was the original location of the first stud farm where the breed developed, though I think the town of Lipica is now actually in Italy!) and tried to force the Austrian government to give a whole different name to the horses bred for the Spanish Riding School.  As you can imagine, this did not go over well with the Austrians and I believe the issue is now dead.  But this whole thing of national pride in pedigree lines can get extremely emotional, it seems!  LOL!   Montanabw (talk) 05:47, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Ever hear of this group?
This from the International Museum of the Horse: "CONFEPASO (Confederation of Paso Fino) a confederation of eight countries, Europe, United States, Puerto Rico, Columbia, Venezuela, Dominican Republic, Panama and Aruba was formed for the purpose of international competition. It has held three Mundial (World Cups) since 1993. The first in the Dominican Republic, the second in 1996 in Puerto Rico and the third Mundial hosted by Cali, Columbia in October of 1997. Plans are underway to host the fourth Mundial in the United States in 1999."

Obviously a bit outdated, but anyway...you ever hear of them? Montanabw (talk) 20:21, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Here are some other links to it: http://ocalapasofino.com/Confepaso.Equitation.Rules.pdf http://www.pasopedigree.com/blog/dominican-republic-unable-to-host-youth-world-confepaso-cup/

By the way, this seems to be a breed site in general. See this http://www.pasopedigree.com/ tons of pages, many articles, much on Colombian horses to supplement the PRPF material you have. This may be a jackpot, though I'd like your assessment of the overall site. Montanabw (talk) 20:26, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Montanabw, yes CONFEPASO, is the confederation of Paso Horses, started in Colombia and used to be the Confederation of Paso Horses of America. In 2005 they held their "Mundial" world show here in Puerto Rico. But they did it thought the Paso Horse association in Puerto Rico. I am guessing they have dropped the " of America" in the name recently. From their competition is where my pictures of Colombian Horses come from. They have a rule book, and their job seems to be the regulation of competition applying their rules to events hosted by others. It has height and color standards, and much more. I have a 2005 copy somewhere. I printed out the PFHA rule book 2006, they are charging for 2008. The PFHA rule book is a 130 page plus monster with rules on everything from how to measure a bit to driving classes. I do have a USEF magazine with a 2004 article on the acceptance of Friesian Horse. I was not aware of USEF until you told me about them. Yes, PasoPedigree, should have some good information for Colombian Pasos. It is a nightmare, there are so many organizations! BTW the Youth Mundial that year I understand was moved. I have a lot of work ahead. BTW, I understand that Europe registers all Paso's together. LOL, you made me laugh so hard above with the Heavy breathing reference. I think the Andalusian name thing may be about that being the south of Spain and not all of it, but anyhow my old book said the PRE had to do with a horse being born in Spain basically ( might be outdated. Arsdelicata (talk) 08:37, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, I guess that CONFEPASO is now called theInternational Confederation of Paso Horses. Started in 1990 in Colombia and Originally called the Confederation Of breeders of Paso Horses. In a nutshell, Colombian Paso Breeders, judges, and organizations listed to them, but Puerto Rican Paso Fino breeders and organizations do not. The PFHA hold seats on it, but does not share the rules on Color standards, and perhaps on gait standards either, as I know that PFHA was being Pushed to register and Promote Trocha and Trote Horses or else loose seats on CONFEPASO. The letter was published here long ago Confepaso letter to PFHAand has since been removed. Anyhow, we may want to just ignore the whole political issue. But at least as far as I know, they are in fact not the Paso Fino Confederation, at least yet, until the next name change. Arsdelicata (talk) 09:08, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * LOL! Don't you just love horse politics!   Montanabw (talk) 18:47, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Costa Rican Saddle Horse (Trotter)
link to an 1980s video ob the Leyendas del Caballo Costarricense de Paso"Caballo Costarricense de Paso" Arsdelicata (talk) 16:22, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Here is how to start: Click here:  Costa Rican Saddle Horse probably no need to add "trotter." There are guidelines on starting your first article that appear when you click a red link. Once you have the article done, please add it at List of horse breeds and be sure to put at the end of it so it goes into the right category. If it's pretty little, add at the end also. And shoot me a message on my talk page -- I'll check wikilinks, formatting etc. for you! Good luck. For further guidelines, check over the ideas on article writing at the Horse breeds task force. Then, on the talk page, to flag the wikiproject Equine bot, add (unless it's a stub, in which case say "stub" instead of "start"). That will put it on various lists for the people (like our beloved Dana boomer!) who do so much to clean up the horse articles! If you get stuck on something and I'm not around (going to be VERY busy at work for a bit) call on Dana or on Countercanter, both have done a bunch of horse breed articles. GO FOR IT! Montanabw (talk) 06:21, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There are a couple pages dedicated to this breed in the International encyclopedia of Horse breeds. I am on the hunt for a book exclusively about them. I feel that if not, I'd just be copying hat that one encyclopedia says. Arsdelicata (talk) 03:45, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * links.Costa Rican horse association

Costa Rican Paso Breeders Association Genealogy & registration rules / type, standard Judging rules ASCACOPA Manual 1996 Arsdelicata (talk) 11:14, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Sandbox update
A, just wanted to let you know that I am going to start plugging in some of the PF sandbox edits into the main article. What I will do is plug them in and then erase that portion from the sandbox, so that we know that it's "done" (sort of), at least to the extent that we have enough consensus at the sandbox as to content, and that the new section is a major enough improvement to be ready to replace existing text. Then we can further refine the transplanted sections within the article mainspace for minor edits, sourcing, etc., keeping major rewriting work in the sandbox. Does that make sense? Montanabw (talk) 04:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, It looks good to me. ( the intro you posted) Will do Arsdelicata (talk) 05:35, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Real life
Not getting into the Paso article for a bit, real life very busy, and also being harassed here by another individual who has been making my life miserable for months. No energy for creativity right now. Just keep sourcing what you have and we will keep plugging away...your patience is appreciated! Montanabw (talk) 21:44, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * That's Cool, I appreciate all the patience and help you have given me, I am sorry about the other situation. I saw some of that, and felt it was very un-fair to you, but I guess it happens. I'll keep adding stuff bit by bit, no worries, have a good vacation, be well, and I hope to see ya in the future and have good work done for you to add. You have my support if you need with that other issue. Arsdelicata (talk) 21:54, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I wish it was a vacation, more like a landslide of busy about to hit next week..."what three day weekend?" Says MTBW. And thanks for your support, by the way!  Montanabw (talk) 00:23, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

FYI, still busy and stressed with what little wikitime I have devoted to a brushfire I don't need, but had one of those weird middle of the night brainstorms about the Paso Fino article and wanted to share. Take a look at Welsh pony. That was originally four articles on the four types, now merged into one. (By me, I confess, about 2 years ago) It's an example of how to start with a main section that covers general characteristics of all the types, then has separate sections for each group. It's shorter than what we'll wind up with, but you get the idea. I think there are no longer all that many common bloodlines, certainly not between the Type A and D anyway! LOL! But this gave me the notion that we can do something longer but similar. The trick is to have a clear description of what the animals registered by PFHA and other English-speaking national registries have in common, then distinguish the history, variations in conformation and gaits. In short, the article will sort of go: Intro, Pasos in general --> history -->conformation --> gaits, then PPR PFs,  history -->conformation --> gaits, then Colombian horses,  history -->conformation --> gaits (including the trocha stuff for now). Then maybe tie it together at the end with a "Uses" section about how both types are used that perhaps offers some viewer's tips to an American or European horse person who stumbles upon a paso show and wonders what's going on! Thoughts? Montanabw (talk) 06:19, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Montanabw, the welsh pony article looks ok (good to me) clear and explanatory. The thing is that the Colombian trocha and trote are being shown as pasos, interestingly enough, the peruvians have been banned from being called pasos, and the International Paso Confederation never speaks of them. (they are really a purely Colombian Paso Entity). I never felt right about them, there was no International concept behind it, except the international marketing of Colombian Horses. The PFHA registered only the Paso Fino Variety of Colombian Pasos, and then PR horses as well, but I have the original APF stud book, and they made a lot of changes, (numbers and even omitted horses once registered). What is confusing me too, is that shows exist in Florida for all the Colombian Pasos ( with distinct categories) but not the Puerto Rican. For the Intro though, perhaps mention of the Peruvian should be there, as they were once registed as Paso Fino In the USA, and carry the " Paso" word in their name. Paso Fino Europe is registering Trot and Gallop Colombian Imports as Paso Finos, and here is where they are making it just crazy(my head hurts). They are also Pushing for all members in Europe to Register with the PFHA. Paso Fino Europe The thing is they are calling the Trocha and the Trote horses the Brothers of the Paso Fino ( This is only true of the Colombian and not the Puerto Rican). Under "Horses they have sections for "Trochador" and "Trote & Galope" but I can't link directly to them as the site does not allow this. This is a snip from them "The dictionary also says the word �Trochar� is" to trot.� In our case, we define Trocha as a very short and quick trot, without cadence and of great smoothness that gives the rider a good ride in flat or rolling terrain, and an even better ride in rough terrain."

On the uses, these horses are being used less and less for anything other than the show ring. People don't even take trail rides on their show horses any more. Even in Puerto Rico, people import Quarter horses and use these with cattle. The Puerto Rican Horses have a big history of being used to carry heavy produce and even whole families, while the ox was used to plow and pull carts. Still, the Trocha, and trote & galope have zero do do with the Puerto Rican Horses. I think the sections will be good, like you did with the Welsh. For now I am mostly searching for info from books so you have the needed footnotes for the article. Thanks for stopping by, Arsdelicata (talk) 08:44, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Man. Horse politics.  Always, the horse loses, don't they?  As far as I can tell, the "Trocha" is just a fox trot.  A trot is a two-beat gait.  If it isn't a two-beat cadenced gait, it isn't a trot. (sigh) As for the rest, it's such a bummer. Similar fights in other breeds over whether to make the animals into a mammal bonsai (please do not utter the word "living art" in my presence...sigh...) or keep it as a working animal.  Arabians, Morgans, Tennessee Walkers, Saddlebreds, similar fights with those who emphasize exaggerated show traits over usability.  So very, very sad.  Same as in dog breeds -- was reading a thing about how the show ring husky would not be capable of pulling a dog sled any more.  My thinking on the PF article is basically to make a first section that is an overview of basic info for the 6th grader with a school report that we crib mostly from the "Paso Fino" article at the Kentucky Horse Park/International Museum of the Horse site, (with some other additions for the history section) then create subsequent subsections for all the various groups with the stuff you are working on.  I'm not worried about length at this point.   Montanabw (talk) 05:24, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Montanabw, Trocha is really in a class all it's own. I will get more info up as I can, it is frustrating, but I certainly want this article to be the Best it can eventually, maybe even get a Feature or star or something like that...lol. Yeah, lets stay away from Working vs Showing stuff. I did get some good History on the PR paso from looking at key words Porto Rico and Pony on Google books. Still lacking in the Colombia department, but I can work from Spanish texts. Slowly but surely as time allows. Arsdelicata (talk) 07:04, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

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