User talk:Art4em

Guide to referencing
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I thought you might find it useful to have some information about references (refs) on wikipedia. These are important to validate your writing and inform the reader. Any editor can removed unreferenced material; and unsubstantiated articles may end up getting deleted, so when you add something to an article, it's highly advisable to also include a reference to say where it came from. Referencing may look daunting, but it's easy enough to do. Here's a guide to getting started.


 * Good references

A reference must be accurate, i.e. it must prove the statement in the text. To validate "Mike Brown climbed Everest", it's no good linking to a page about Everest, if Mike Brown isn't mentioned, nor to one on Mike Brown, if it doesn't say that he climbed Everest. You have to link to a source that proves his achievement is true. You must use Reliable sources, such as published books, mainstream press, authorised web sites, and official documents. Blogs, Myspace, Youtube, fan sites and extreme minority texts are not usually acceptable, nor is Original research, e.g. your own unpublished, or self-published, essay or research.


 * Simple referencing

The first thing you have to do is to create a "Notes and references" section. This goes towards the bottom of the page, below the "See also" section and above the "External links" section. Enter this code:


 * ==Notes and references==
 * notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? Debate (talk) 19:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Party Down Scandal (LG Williams)
A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Party Down Scandal (LG Williams), suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? Debate (talk) 19:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

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Reply
So much of those articles maintained a promotional tone that it was difficult to see the real value in them. For each individual separate article, an encyclopedic tonemust be maintained, and they should each have 3rd party, nontrivial, verifiable and reliable sources. Even if LG Williams is notable, some of the events which had their own articles may not have been notable enough to actually merit separate articles. This is an encyclopedia that documents subjects of the real world, not a promotional website to hype up one's favorite subjects. After reviewing the notability standards and other policies on tone, etc., try working on your articles so as to be on par with other good articles. (Note: If you see something that does not belong here, don't use it as a reference or guide, but mark it for its errors and problems, using appropriate templates to do so.) Feel free to contact me with any more questions. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 13:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

May 2008
Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks will lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing.  freshacconci  speak to me  17:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I very much appreciate your comments...thank you. May I ask you a question? So am I to understand that you are condoning demonstrated ignorance and prejudice at the expense of proven facts and notability?  Please explain...--Art4em (talk) 17:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

In order to maintain civility, please direct your comments towards the content in dispute, and not the editor(s) involved -- unless another editor breeches civility or other conduct-related guidelines; in which case there are steps to be taken. Labelling as hoax or similar is not a personal assault, even if you feel it is unwarranted. Best to familiarize yourself with notability, verifiability, reliable sources, and encyclopedic tone. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 18:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your comments, although I DO NOT appreciate the lecture since you are obviously a very late comer to the discussion. In fact, it clearly convey's your complete lack of understanding on the issues and matters at hand -- which seems to be the norm around here.  Moreover, if I were to appear upon somebody's discussion, I would research the matter not just deliver a platitude.  It is insulting and vulgar, period.  I hope I am clear.


 * I would be glad to comment on Debate comments...his name is debate but has NEVER once been accountable for the ignorant comments. So let me just site the obvious:


 * 1. He listed my entire Wally Hedrick article as a 'hoax'. This error is beyond ignorance, it is clearly motivated by (a) stupidity or (b) some philistine agenda.  It can only be a or b. Clearly it is contemptible. Moreover, the wiki community has NOT held this 'editor' accountable for the ridiculous comments / slander prejudice, period against the article.


 * 2. Similarly, he labeled / deleted my Party Down article as a hoax. This error is beyond ignorance, it is clearly motivated by (a) stupidity or (b) some philistine agenda.  It can only be a or b. Clearly it is contemptible. Moreover, the wiki community has NOT held this 'editor' accountable for the ridiculous comments / slander prejudice, period against the article.


 * ADDITIONALLY, since the 'editor' did not achieve his goal of deleting the page the first time, the 'editor' tried another route, 'notability'. With this route, he tried to bring the entire University of California journalism department into question which is absurd. Again, the wiki community has NOT held this 'editor' accountable for the ridiculous comments / slander prejudice, period against the learned publication and citation. Also, the learned comments by the article's supporter's were NEVER debated or brought into the discussion -- Debate just deleted them.  Again, the wiki community has NOT held this 'editor' accountable for the ridiculous comments / slander prejudice, period against the comments.


 * The wiki community's defense of Debate's ignorance and lack of debate is clearly in evidence. --Art4em (talk) 18:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Statements like "is beyond ignorance", "...motivated by (a) stupidity or (b) some philistine agenda...", and "it is contemptible" are inflammatory. There are no constructive or actionable implications to such statements. I don't need to know the technical issues involved to know when a user is being uncivil. Temper yourself, remain dispassionate if necessary, but do not inflame or insult others directly. We do have behavioral guidelines for the benefit of everyone in the community. These protect you as well as others from unnecessary stress and detraction from progress here. Consistent personal attacks or insults are deemed by the community as a whole to be unacceptable behavior, and administrators are permitted to respond appropriately; this is the limit of my role thus far. This is not a delivery of platitudes; it's a friendly notification that personal affronts are unacceptable. I hope this is clear. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 19:08, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Tony, I would like to point out that you have the cart in front of the horse.


 * But thank you for acknowledging that you do NOT know the facts surrounding the issue.


 * Now, then: I am awaiting your comments on Debate's many errors, or do you want to condone the obvious errors, ignorance and prejudice? Or maybe you have some other diplomatic term for such plain contempt for facts?  Thank you.  Respectfully --  --Art4em (talk) 19:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * They are, in fact two separate issues, not conjoined as cart and horse. You could be 100% right here, but continual violations of behavior policies and guidelines could result in your temporary or even permanent loss of editing privileges.  I am trusting that you're definitely intelligent and mature enough to avoid this ever getting to that level.


 * So then, let's separate the issues. Addressing the content, it seems as if User:Debate has articulately expressed his (her?) refutations of all of the sources that were provided.  Additionally, I do not see that  User:Debate has ever edited the Wally Hedrick article, so I can't guess as to why you'd say he marked it as a hoax.  If you are sincere, and not POV-pushing, you can continue to search for sources that meet our guidelines.  Even if your article does get deleted, you can ask for a deletion review when you have more convincing sources.


 * I await your reply. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 19:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, thank you. I very much accept you willingness to address the 'content' of the charges at hand.  Thank you.  However, I find it a clear violation of my rights to have to REWRITE MY COMMENTS  again and again -- they were deleted by Debate without any debate; despite my clear request to be heard out.  In fact, there were many commentators whose positive comments were deleted off-hand by, so-called, Debate.  That in itself is another violation against my wiki rights and wiki pages.  Voices were NOT headed but deleted.  I urge you to address this clear abuse.


 * Now then, you can clearly look at Debate's first instance of abuse with his comment in the Wally Hedrick discussion page:

Art4em Hoaxes: As far as I can tell the vast majority of Art4em's contributions appear to be hoaxes. If anyone more knowledgeable about the subject than I can scan an eye over his/her edits that would be much appreciated. Debate (talk) 14:12, 23 April 2008 (UTC) Despite some disagreements about the style of the article, Art4em's contribution to this article has been constructive and well-intentioned. The sources are genuine, and Wally Hedrick is a notable subject for an article, and definitely not a hoax.--Ethicoaestheticist (talk) 17:10, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Now then, User:Ethicoaestheticist chimed in immediately and snuffed out Debate's errors, yet Debate was NOT warned about his inappropriate behavior, slander or insults -- despite his demonstrated ignorance on matters of art -- in fact, this may be his first foray into the field. Do I need to continue? I perfer to stop here because clearly there was NOT one hoax here, despite Debate claim that there was in fact "HOAXES".  There was none, there never was.  Moreover, all the subsequent debate was deleted, period -- despite no evidence to the contrary.


 * Moreover, good friend Tony, notice what User:Ethicoaestheticist said:


 * 1. Constructive, hello!


 * 2. Well Intentioned, hello!


 * 3. Sources Genuine, hello!


 * Is there any mention by a learned art editor, User:Ethicoaestheticist of 'hoax' or 'fraudulant'??? NO. Why not I ask you?


 * Next, to many reader's disbelief, Debate tried another route: 'notablity'.  What does he know about notablity in art? True, I love and champion iconoclasts of highest order, but Debate has never contributed to any art articles before?  Moreover, to refresh all the deleted comments by all the astute editors which Debate quickly deleted, he went on to trash such 'notable' people and comments from the following sources: San Francisco Chronicle, University of California, Wadsworth Press, Village Voice, East Bay Express, Bay Guardian, Sacramento Bee, etc, etc, etc.


 * By the way, with all due respect to User:Ethicoaestheticist, I wrote and initiated the Wally Hedrick page myself -- not "contributed" -- despite strong objections to the "most important artist" Jerry Garcia ever met.


 * What other info do you need to reprimand User:Debate immediately for bias and hostile abuse -- not to mention deleting erudite commentary. In other words, I do NOT need to debate in the deleted section, Debate's inappropriate actions should be held accountable immediately and my deleted articles stated forthwith -- with proper discussion held in their discussion rooms without the comments deleted, period.  --Art4em (talk) 06:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Respectfully, User:Debate's comments on these articles is content-based, and not a direct attack on you, so I cannot in good conscience accuse him of this. (See WP:CIVIL, et al.)

Regarding his perception of the content, I have to say that what is plain and well-known to some is not such to others. If your sources and references meet with our policies and guidelines (see WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:RS), then User:Debate must acknowledge this. His itemized assessment of them, however, seems to suggest that he feels they do not meet our standards. The best course of action, I think, is to let the deletion process run its course so that the community consensus can rule out over one user's viewpoint. The question, it seems, is if the sources meet our requirements, and the mention of the subject matter within each is not trivial -- that is, in amongst many descriptions of similar subjects which are not notable or have mixed notability herein. I am continuing to read up here while trying to keep my job, so please bear with me. ;-) - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 19:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Great, thank you. You did not address my concerns and charges.  Postive content and consensus was deleted / records obliterated / and never addressed.  This is wrong, harassment, abusive and vandalism.  All charges WERE addressed...postponement of deletion was NOT headed...I want to file a complaint.


 * Should I re-upload the page in question to initiate debate and to examine the record of abuse / and favorable content reviews? What about the many learned comments that were deleted in positive favor of the said articles...I would like them reinstated for 'consensus'...they were not address?  how can i retrieve them? --Art4em (talk) 19:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

If a deletion was, in your opinion, erroneous, then request a deletion review; calling it "filing a complaint" is not constructive. If an article is still being discussed, then take part in that discussion, without ad hominem attacks on other editors. If you would like a copy of an article that has been deleted sent to you, then make that request of any administrator. In the meantime, be aware that arrogance is not calculated to win you support in these discussions, and that no one person can possible know a fraction as much as we all know collectively. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  19:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your comments. Yes, again, my concerns have not been address. A page was deleted when it was requested not to be deleted. But, then you credit the abuser by insisting the conversation to take place in the wrong place -- not on the page's discussion page.  This only gives credibility to the harassing agent.  Whereas, it is wiki protocol, and my opinion, that the discussion should take place on the disputed page.  Clearly, discussion was deleted to insure harasser's agenda and delete group concensus.


 * However, this 'common sense' agent is only proving Nabokov and Andrew Kean's nightmare. And, your 'protocol' only supports injustice.


 * But, indeed, I love the 'Borg' concept of group intelligence. That is, when one 'borg' can tap into the vast resources and intelligence of the collective borg mind. However, with this embarrassing agent, this borg novelty is NOT in use.  He/she has no background in the field, nor have they heeded the commentary of the other learned borg in the field who chimed in.  This borg agent is a rogue and their actions have NOT been addressed.  I am pretty sure, such rogue borg would be deleted from the collective hive.


 * Given the above, I am going to repost the article in that the discussion can occur where is belongs, and where is was initially requested to take place. --Art4em (talk) 18:39, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikiquette alert
This is a polite note to let you know I have filed a wikiquette alert. I am notifying you per the instructions on that page. Debate (talk) 00:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Meaningful discussion
You are not helping by continually making accusations against other editors. It harms your cause. What you need is facts, backed by sound references. I notice you have employed rhetoric, but this does not carry weight, I'm afraid. Any problem with deletions, contact the admin for speedy deletions, participate in WP:AFD with your case, and see WP:DRV.  Ty  00:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you again for your comments. I have refuted all the charges (time, activity, personages, et al).


 * I would like to begin a full review of Party Down Scandal as soon as you have the time. Respectfully, --Art4em (talk) 00:59, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Party Down Scandal
The prod read thusly:"This article covers an event that happened in 1999, reported in one article in one newspaper. There is no evidence that it has received any coverage anywhere since. The incident is therefore patently not notable (see WP:N). The apparently solid reference list has been copied wholesale from the artist's article (see L. G. Williams) and many 'references' do not even mention the artist, let alone this piece (See talk:L. G. Williams). The article's creator has had opportunities to improve the article with solid references but none have been forthcoming. An extensive attempt to find additional sources to substantiate the notability of the subject has failed. The article appears to have been created entirely for the purposes of promoting the artist (see WP:Spam)."Per NOT (see also WP:UNDUEWEIGHT), a single event is not notable if it is not covered in multiple notable/reliable sources in a nontrivial way. This event has thus far failed to be proven to be notable -- whether it happened or not. (Even a hoax event could conceivably be notable if multiple notable/reliable sources covered it in a nontrivial way, whether falling for it or reporting on the hoax.) Respectfully, The Daily Californian is not a "major" newspaper on par with, say, The Philadelphia Inquirer or The New York Post; rather, it possesses notability on par with The Daily Pennsylvanian. "Major", at least in my perception, implies of a major metropolitan market or a national or other media outlet. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 21:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Now your talking...thank you so much for the clarification. I really appreciate it. Let me proceed carefully, so I understand...your patience is appreciated:


 * Nowhere in the debate of this excellent subject was this handled with such nuance and understanding. In fact, the feature citation, a major cover story was dismissed outright as a photoshop hoax; then when that proved to be a false accusation, the unsuccessful editor with no experience in these matters tried another tactic to summarily delete my pages: the editor in question suggested that the reporter for this cover story was a mediocrity in a mediocre job. Obviously, this is no way to conduct a 'fair' assessment in a subject few understand. So, my thanks to you because I believe education is the highest priority of a nation, and this is why were are talking in wiki, too.  Bravo to you.


 * Naturally, if a valuable citation in a major publication in San Francisco Bay Area was summarily ridiculed as was its hard working staff and Nationally ranked staff, do you think I would want to present another for ridicule? In fact, I did NOT, nor would I usher up another publication or citation to be deleted by such 'fair' editors. Therefore, it is NOT true that I had an opportunity for further discussion when the first was unabashedly dismissed in front of the entire San Francisco community.


 * Now then, if I read you right, you are not slandering this hard working, great staff and important resource to the entire East Bay, and its front page editors, professors, staff and story supervisors -- but you would just like another major market reliable source for 'additional' verification. Because, small towns and small reporter's across America don't have merit, don't know how to do their job, don't understand the 'big' picture or cannot be a true judge of notability.


 * Verifiability states: "Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications. The appropriateness of any source always depends on the context." (Italics mine.) Here's why I would guess that the The Daily Californian is not considered a mainstream, reliable source: 1) Current circulation is about 10,000.  That's less than the number of people in my hometown, whose collective opinions about art would hardly be considered a reliable source; 2) It is a student-run paper.  This means that the ethical, intellectual, scholarly, and attentive aspects of the staff of reporters changes completely at least every four years or so.  This makes reliability, which is at least as dependent on individual staff members as it is a media outlet's management, constantly fluctuating.  A stellar piece of journalism in one issue may have its value solely in its writer/editor(s) and not the institution itself. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk


 * Thank you for your quote to this one queston. 1. Daily Cal is an academic publication; 2. But, OK, I will take it that numbers infer quality; 3. also, I will also deduct / infer that if another major metropolitan art news-source also mentioned the story, I would have permission to repost the article.


 * 1. The Daily Californian os NOT an academic publication, but a student-authored newspaper at an academic institution. Read Reliable_sources.  2. Numbers infer notability. 3. One or more reliable sources of that general calibur. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 17:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your time and attention in this matter.

Here is the passage your cite:

Material from mainstream news organizations is welcomed, particularly the high-quality end of the market, such as the The Washington Post, The Times of London, and The Associated Press. When citing opinion pieces in newspapers and magazines, in-text attribution should be used if the material is contentious. When adding contentious biographical material about living persons that relies upon news organizations, only material from high-quality news organizations should be used.

Please notice it does NOT distinguish between who authors the newspaper articles, the newspaper in general, or its metropolitan area. It only 'welcomes' certain newspapers. With ALL DUE RESPECT, in my reading of the above, your points and claims are way off base, in fact, they might clearly be construed as inventions or projections since none of your claims appear in the above wiki citation.

However, rather than contesting this obvious point any further, I would simply like you and I to agree upon the fact that my citation is from a newspaper, and a fairly reputable one at that... Are you up for that? I am. --Art4em (talk) 19:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I strongly disagree to the notion that your viewpoint is accurate. In terms of the notability of an event, I would NEVER consider a student-run, non peer-reviewed publication with no established scholars on staff, as the sole source.  Notability is supported most effectively by the calibur of sources Wikipedia 'welcomes'; other sources are considered based on their reliability for the type of information upon which articles rely, and the frequency with which the subject matter occurs for multiple sources of this type.  Multiple reliable sources are also preferred.  I can guarantee that if we restore this article, it will immediately go to WP:AFD and be undeniably challenged by any experienced Wikipedian here who happens upon it.  If that is the route you wish to go, so be it.  But this serves as the preemptive 'I-told-you-so' that will inevitably be forthcoming. I am going offline now, so if you want this done immediately, you'll have to find another admin to do it. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 20:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * No, I am not going to do anything you and I don't agree upon, be certain of that. I just want to be clear.


 * You said my 'viewpoint' was inaccurate? Yet, where is it inaccurate? Please read the reference you gave me!


 * Nowhere in the wiki reference that you supplied does it separate or categorize newspapers, period. Wiki, believes as I do, that newspaper people all around this great nation do the best job they can, period. Nor, does the wiki passage you gave me distinguish between alot of peer review, a little peer review or no peer review.  Geezus, lets get real here, ok? Please read what you gave me!


 * I am NOT inaccurate on either of these points, period. Nor, does it state, how many articles are necessary to make a point -- fyi. More on this later.


 * I would also like to point out, having worked in a major 'daily', 'weekly' and a 'student' paper, that more 'peer' review occurs at the later than the former. The later is done out of love, the former to pay the mortgage.


 * i object to the fact that you call me inaccurate about a viewpoint; when I have not viewpoint -- I am just reading the 3 sentences you yourself gave me! Please admit to my two points because they are in black and white above. You cannot fabricate inferences in wiki policy when they are NOT supported by the wiki material.  The only thing this newspaper section states is 'welcome'. Period.


 * Lastly, with all due respect, if we are to have a meaningful discussion, I would prefer that you stick with the wiki facts and policy as stated, and which you supposedly are upholding -- rather than your personal viewpoints of some supposed fabricated inferences. Respectfully, --Art4em (talk) 05:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I am beginning to question the "respect" you offer at the end of your brimming comments. If you were earnest in understanding how Wikipedia is applied, you would note that WP:NOTE states this:


 * If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be notable.


 * "Presumed" means that substantive coverage in multiple independent reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, of notability. Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not suitable for inclusion. For example, it may violate what Wikipedia is not.
 * "Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than trivial but may be less than exclusive.
 * "Reliable" means sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline. Sources may encompass published works in all forms and media. Availability of secondary sources covering the subject is a good test for notability.
 * "Sources," defined on Wikipedia as secondary sources, provide the most objective evidence of notability. The number and nature of reliable sources needed varies depending on the depth of coverage and quality of the sources. Multiple sources are generally preferred.
 * "Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by those affiliated with the subject including (but not limited to): self-publicity, advertising, self-published material by the subject, autobiographies, press releases, etc.


 * A topic for which this criterion is deemed to have been met by consensus, is usually worthy of notice, and satisfies one of the criteria for a stand-alone article in the encyclopedia. Verifiable facts and content not supported by multiple independent sources may be appropriate for inclusion within another article.
 * Footnotes


 * Notice: "Lack of multiple sources suggests that the topic may be more suitable for inclusion in an article on a broader topic." The broader topic would be L. G. Williams, or maybe modern art controversies.  However, L.G. Williams was not deemed notable.  So the notability of this event must ride on some other facet.  Yet, you only have one source which mentions it.  And it's a source which, based on my experience as a Wikipedian, I can tell you doesn't hold water with community consensus interpretation of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If someone was shot on the Berkeley campus, the student paper would cover it, but other local news media would also cover it.  That event would not be notable enough for inclusion unless it garnered wider attention, or proved to be a very significant factor in some important aspect of the community.  This is how it works.  You can tell me I'm not quoting sufficient policies to convince you that this is how it works, but since you haven't read everything that Wikipedians base their interpretations on, I don't understand why you don't trust me on this.  By all means, recreate the article.  If you don't, I'll restore the deleted copy and run it through WP:AFD and let you argue endlessly with everyone else. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 13:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

First, OOOOOOh, the reference to campus shootings is a little too much for me -- having spent a great many years on campuses myself. That comment is very scary and very ominous to me. I would like to state for the record on this personal discussion page for any editors or FBI onlookers that Art4em DOES NOT condone violence in any form, nor any illusion to violence even in rhetorical debate. Additionally, these comments above are not Art4em's, nor the coupling of this directive with the references from the 'Bible' -- it is compounded errieness at the very least -- and appears headed toward violence grounded by fundamentalism, which I abhor. I will leave it at that.

Next, I don't understand why you just don't concede my points, period, since they are substantiated by the wiki policy -- whereas your comments, for instance, about the size of the paper correlating with a editors hometown simply does not. It does not hurt to admit ones errors.

Thirdly, I NEVER said that I DO NOT HAVE MORE citations? Where did you get these unfounded ideas from? I NEVER said that. In fact, it is NOT true (see bottom below). In fact, I have many...but first, I want my points recognized and validated since they are justified and pertinent. My pages have been clearly deleted, thus violated, by personal bias -- not wiki policy.

Fourthly, I 'READ' the wiki policy on newspapers. No matter how many times I read those 4 sentences I will not discover your inferred claims about the disreputably of valid and invalid newspapers, period. Admit that, geez.

Lastly, I appreciate your comments (except for any references to violence). And, I appreciate the offer to repost my article, thank you. I will do it when I am ready....and we are almost there. Thank you, --Art4em (talk) 17:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Therefore, you are telling me that every article in wikipedia MUST HAVE two reliable news sources per argumentative point from a big metropolitan area or they can be speedily deleted? Do I have this correct? Or, is it just my article that needs two or more? (Obviously, if this is so, I would like to ask the wiki community to delete the story of Moses and the 10 commandments since it has NO small town coverage, no Desert News, but only as a story from a sheepherder.)


 * I'm sure you think this is funny, but that story is recorded in a book that is available in 2,454 languages, with various portions of it in 848 languages, one of the two Testaments in 1,168 languages, and the full Bible in 438 languages. Moreover, the story is believed or highly regarded by a significant portion of the world's population.  Moreover, Moses was no sheep herder; rather, he was a ranking member of the Egyptian nobility (the grandson of the ruling Pharaoh) who fell famously from their graces and started a nation that still impacts global politics, religion, and security today.  True or not, its verifiability and notability is beyond question. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk

Great, um, according to the movie, Charleton Heston was hanging loose with the sheep on the mount at that time, with a bunch of somebody's daughters. Sheep and daughters, he had his bases covered! Nice. But, I appreciate your correction -- although you missed this point too. My point was not post-postmortem assessment, but a 'contemporary' assessment of his real-time account, "like when he just came down, dude".


 * It's a movie... dude. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk

Now that you took the bait, hook, line and sinker (I thought the bible belt discussion might reveal some true color and boy did it: no wonder contemporary art is taking a thrashing here!), could you please address my valid points above the sheepherder decoy.


 * You're delving into personal affronts again.  You know nothing of my beliefs, personal tastes, etc.  What you've just done is accuse me of a conflict of interest, failing to assume good faith on my part.  I'll state my objection to this tactic, move on, and direct you to the Bible article, which redundantly re-emphasizes the notability of its contents.  (You'll also note no mention of any Biblical bias against "contemporary art".) - CobaltBlueTony™ talk


 * Additionally, are you inferring an event has to be reported time and again and again throughout history for it to have notability? And, moreover, it doesn't matter to you that historically, another artist two years later makes an identical claim then naturally infers 'unique' and 'precedent' setting status on the very similar artistic action? You see, artistic legacy, precedence and subsequence is very important in the field.


 * I am not stating that it needs to be brought up again and again. But the single event must have echoed significantly in multiple verifiable and reliable sources independent of the subject, even if just in that instant. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk


 * Lastly, most interesting articles that I see in Wiki appear to include background reference materials outside the perview of an incident or subject as 'additional resources' for reader's to investigate. Do I have this correct? I hope so. See, you would be able to show you that I did place additional materials in this light and manner, where it not for the speedy deletion of the page.  I would certainly agree that article that do not mention the subject, or shed light on the subject should be deleted!  I would never object to that.  However, are you saying that all articles should NOT provide additional reference materials? I am happy to abide either way, it doesn't matter to me. I just want to get it right if I have your permission to repost the article.


 * The additional reference materials should mention the subject in a significant, and not trivial, way. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk


 * Thank you for your time and clarification...I truly value your time and interest. I believe that this matter will be resolved shortly.


 * Against my better judgement I'm going to jump in here... Art4em, you really need to read a couple of those little blue links people keep quoting at you, they answer all your questions. See Notability and as Cobaltbluetony has already mentioned, NOT. Debate (talk) 06:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Politely, I am requesting Debate refrain from my discussion page while this matter is under examination and while I am having a valuable conversation with learned colleague. His/her remarks above are clearly designed to be insipid, thus, pointed harassments. Appreciatively, --Art4em (talk) 07:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Your personal disagreements aside, Debate is right. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 16:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Dear Tony, am I to infer that this is your learned and supportive answer to my questions to you? I certainly hope not. In good faith I have asked for your clarification on a few matters, therefore, I am asking a few simple answers.  --Art4em (talk) 17:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Everything that I am interpreting to you comes directly from links that have been provided above by multiple users, not just Debate.- CobaltBlueTony™ talk 17:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The bottom line is: provide multiple reliable sources. One mention in one newspaper does not meet WP:NOTABILITY and does not justify an article. You remark about Debate, "His/her remarks above are clearly designed to be insipid, thus, pointed harassments" violates WP:AGF, if not WP:NPA. He is only commenting as any experienced editor would. Editors on this page are spending quite a lot of time, pointing out some essentials, and it's in your interest to take advantage of the advice. It comes from widely accepted guidelines applied on wiki.  Ty  06:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Ty, thank you for you input, I truly appreciate it. I am going to be happy to supply additional resource or resources, when i am good and ready, of course.


 * You don't think I would go to all this trouble without having all the cards i need up my sleeve, do you? Also, I think you know my scholarship better than most. Once citation Art4em indeed! Ha! It would take 1,000 Jeff Koons articles to equal the citations in my Wally Hedrick!  Somebody who is simply doing a simple search on Google is but a simple keyboardist; not a judge of notability!


 * All of the inferences of wiki policy that you and other are "pointing out" are totally unjustified by the language and intent of the wiki statements!  Simply put, the various editors inferences drawn from wikipedia language are simply invented -- it is not stated anywhere in the wiki policy? No where does the wiki newspaper policy say that a newspaper output must be larger than so-and-so editors town!  Come on, clearly, such constructed editorial fantasies of wiki policy are revealing and way out of bounds on any 'fair' scale.


 * Look, it is a great pleasure to show you and the other 'fair' people, just how my case and my efforts have been duly mistreated against wiki policy. My pages were deleted before a case had been demonstrably discredited, period. Even now, my article is jusified, period. I have established a reliable citation and notability through precedent: it art that is the way it goes. Mona Lisa does not ask for peer review, it sets a precedent that was followed.  Subsequent homages, as I clearly demonstrated in my article are further testaments to notability, period.


 * Tellingly, again and again editors point to wiki policy's which DO NOT validate their claims. I have demonstrated this again and again above.


 * Thus, the deletion of my article in question was done will-o-the-wisp, at best, period. This is against wiki policy and it was wrong.


 * That said, I will be glad to post up the other "major metropolitan" sources once I feel that my point has been clearly demonstrated for all to see, which by now, I am fortunate to have here a very telling record (ie, the others were deleted) of personal bias, invented wiki policy, and unwarranted actions under a false blanket of wiki policy.


 * Respectfully --Art4em (talk) 07:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I have waited for over a week for a well-meaning, fair-minded administrator to undo the wrong that has been clearly demonstrated and reinstate my pages, so that proper protocol can be followed and the wrongs addressed -- I will be happy to wait till Friday....Respectfully, --Art4em (talk) 07:06, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Please note my commentary and citations on 'Wiki' Deletion Dispute Policy in the Wikipedia Alerts Page
No problem, thank you [SheffieldSteel]:

"Where reasonable doubt exists for a potential deleted article, discussion using (A) another method under the deletion policy should occur instead. (B) If a page has survived a prior deletion discussion, it may not be speedily deleted". The deletion of my pages occurred despite (A) and (B). Of course, the record of this has been deleted.

Additonally:

"If you disagree: Any editor who disagrees with a proposed deletion can simply remove the tag. Even after the page is deleted, any editor can have the page restored by any administrator simply by asking. In both cases the editor is encouraged to fix the perceived problem with the page." I was never "encouraged" to fix any problems, ever. Of course, the record of this has been deleted.

MOST IMPORTANTLY:

"These processes are not decided through a head count, so participants are encouraged to explain their opinion and refer to policy. The discussion lasts at least five days; afterwards, pages are deleted by an administrator if there is consensus to do so. (THERE WAS NO CONCENSUS IN MY DELETED PAGES PERIOD -- NOR WAS MY PAGES GIVEN FIVE DAYS.) [MOST IMPORTANTLY: ]If there is no rough consensus, the page is kept and is again subject to normal editing, merging or redirecting as appropriate. (THIS LAST SENTENCE IS MOST PERTINENT TO MY CASE...) 

Wiki policy was clearly thrown to the wind in my case, on every count of the above...hence my absolute frustration on all counts. I am asking a 'fair minded' administrator to reinstate my pages to let protocol rule the day in fairness and fair practice. So consensus and fair practice may rule the day. Respectfully, --Art4em (talk) 19:20, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Clarification of deletion policy
Art4em, here is some clarification you may find helpful. I know we Wikipedians tend to throw around a lot of jargon, heh, and that can make things confusing.

First, the policy you quoted:

""Discussion: Disputes over page content are not dealt with by deleting the page. Likewise, disagreement over a policy or guideline is not dealt with by deleting it. Similarly, issues with an inappropriate user page can often be resolved through discussion with the user." The content issues should be discussed at the relevant talk page, and other methods of dispute resolution should be used first, such as listing on Wikipedia:Requests for comments for further input. Deletion discussions that are really unresolved content disputes may be closed by an administrator, and referred to the talk page or other appropriate forum.

The key word here is content. The point this clause is trying to make is that if we have an article about a subject that everyone agrees is notable, but a group of editors cannot agree what to actually put in the article, in that case deletion is an inappropriate resolution. Instead, the editors involved should continue to work to find a consensus, rather than kill the golden goose.

By my understanding, that is not what happened in your case. The notability of the article is in question, not the content. In this case, the deletion process is perfectly valid.

Now, I apologize if this next bit is something you already know, but bear with me here... There are three types of deletion:


 * Speedy-Delete, also called Speedy or CSD (for "Criteria for Speedy Deletion"). Under this process, a tag is placed on a page saying that it falls under one of a number of various narrowly-worded categories that you can find here.  The creator of an article may not remove a speedy-delete tag, and the article in question can be deleted without further discussion.  This is necessary to deal with the large number of article that are created along the lines of, "Me and my buddies started a band called Blah-blah, and we are huge in Europe, prove it's not true," or "This is my website, visit it and increase my click-through rate."  In theory, the lack of discussion is okay, because the criteria are extremely narrow.  Unfortunately, the process is sometimes overused.


 * Proposed deletion, usually referred to as prod. In this case, the article does not meet any of the speedy-deletion criteria, but the person who placed the tag believes the deletion will be relatively uncontroversial.  Anybody can remove a prod tag, even the creator of the article.  If nobody removes it in X number of days (five or seven, I think), then it's assumed that nobody cares if the article is deleted, and there it goes.  But if anybody disputes the proposed deletion, then we move to the final level of the process...


 * Articles for deletion discussion, or AfD. This is the policy you referred to either where the article is not supposed to be deleted without at least five days of discussion.  This process is used when an article is not a candidate for speedy deletion, and when there is disagreement by one or more users over whether it should be deleted.  In this case, a whole new page is set up to discuss the notability of the article, and you can comment and present your arguments there.  If there is still a consensus to delete, the article will be deleted anyway, but this may provide the "discussion" you keep asking for.

Now, some of the articles you did not want deleted were listed on AfD, and there were five days of discussion. Please see Articles for deletion/House where the Bottom Fell out. You had from May 7th until May 12th to comment on this deletion discussion, but failed to do so.

The Party Down Scandal appears to have been speedy-deleted because it was a redirect to another page. Do you know where it redirected?

If there are articles that went through the CSD process, and you wish they had gone through AfD, you can try filing a report at WP:Deletion review. Right now, I don't see exactly what you are upset about. There were plenty of chances to dispute the deletion of House where the Bottom Fell out in the appropriate forum...? --Jaysweet (talk) 13:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * For the record, Party Down Scandal (LG Williams) was the other article, speedy deleted by Cobaltbluetony.--Ethicoaestheticist (talk) 17:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I was looking at Party Down Scandal, which was (uncontroversially) deleted later as an empty redirect.
 * So there ya go, Art4em. This is the best I can offer: House where the Bottom Fell out is dead and gone; the AfD discussion was completely according to process, and the vote to delete was unanimous.  If you want to try, go to WP:DRV, follow the directions for filing a new report, and say that you disagree with the rationale for the speedy-deletion of Party Down Scandal (LG Williams) and would like to see the article go to AfD.  Your request might be denied, but that is pretty much your last recourse.  Best of luck. --Jaysweet (talk) 18:12, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks sweet... Offensive personal attack against User:Jaysweet removed.

Please tell me the following for the record: "How in the heck can you say with a straight face that Party Down was contested "(uncontroversially)" -- you must not be in the same wikipedia site as I am. I contested it all the way, as well as others in the discussion page! HELLO!

Offensive personal attack against User:Jaysweet removed.

The next article, fyi, once this case is settled is my LG Williams article...

Utterly Exasperated at the level of discussion in these matters...! --Art4em (talk) 19:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure whether you are deliberately misinterpreting what people are telling you. I'm trying to assume good faith but when help is offered you respond with attacks. To clarify: the Party Down Scandal was just a redirect to Party Down Scandal (LG Williams) and was deleted because it linked to a deleted article. Uncontroversial. The article you need to take to deletion review is Party Down Scandal (LG Williams).--Ethicoaestheticist (talk) 20:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes indeed, sorry for the abbr. I would assume, a major presumption since its proving a far reaching stretch to be sure, that all concerned parties and 'fair minded' people would know that I not be contesting a deleted redirect. You have been very helpful and I truly appreciate you solid input.

No, I refuse to carry this discussion in "Deletion REVIEW". Why? Because the wiki protocol has NOT been followed in the first place, namely:

"Disputes over page content are not dealt with by deleting the page. he content issues should be discussed at the relevant talk page, and other methods of dispute resolution should be used first, such as listing on Wikipedia:Requests for comments for further input. "

Are you an I the only ones who can read Wiki policy? Why should I follow Wiki policy when clearly Wiki policy was NOT followed in the first place? It is this simple, period. Everyone keeps spouting off Wiki policy, but NOBODY follows it! nor do they enforce it! My pages were deleted unfairly and unjustly, period.

For me to follow wiki policy along with hypocrites of wiki policy (talking policy, but not enforcing it, not undoing the wrongs to policy) makes absolutely no sense.

Thank you again --- --Art4em (talk) 05:56, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Art4em -- you may know a lot about modern art, but you are not very good at accepting well-intentioned advice. I took a good twenty minutes out of my time to explain things as simply and clearly as I could, and your response was to say that my "ignorance is mind-boggling."  Frankly, your inability to comprehend things that you have been told over and over again, that is what is mind-boggling.  I am beginning to think your ability to follow simple logic is deeply, deeply flawed.  Really.
 * I've been around Wikipedia long enough to know how these things turn out. Your articles will remain deleted (this is not a decree, it is a prediction; I wash my hands of this situation), and either you will get bored and leave, or you will eventually be blocked for the deep civility issues you have displayed.  Best of luck until then. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we must insist that you assume good faith while interacting with other editors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Jaysweet (talk) 20:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sweet, excellent mature advise for sure. Except for one thing: find a better artist article, one that shakes the core of the preconceived canon, than Wally Hedrick written in the last 6 months....then we can talk about "contributing constructively" ...--Art4em (talk) 05:56, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * ...shakes the core of the preconceived canon..." Maybe this explains what you are confused about.  Articles on Wikipedia are not about synthesizing new ideas or making a new inference.  In other words, Wikipedia articles are not'' there to shake the core of the preconceived canon in the first place!  Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not an art journal.  The purpose of Wikipedia is to present the "preconceived canon," as well as dissenting viewpoints (assuming they are not given undue weight given their present notability) in a factual, neutral, and verifiable manner.
 * Now, if you get your ideas published in a modern art journal, and succeed in shaking the core of the preconceived canon, and the art world starts to take notice, at that point it would be appropriate for Wikipedia to cover it. Not before then, though, because Wikipedia is not a crystal ball.
 * I would encourage you to read WP:SYNTH, WP:INDISCRIMINATE, WP:UNDUE, WP:OR, and WP:CRYSTAL -- or at least skim some of these pages. Maybe this will help you understand why your articles have been deleted. --Jaysweet (talk) 18:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Offensive personal attack against User:Jaysweet removed. --Art4em (talk) 21:32, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Jaysweet has taken the time to inform you properly of wiki policies and you'd be well advised to take notice. This is a final warning on civility. The next time you come out with gratuitous insults will result in a block.  Ty  23:52, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Ty, I would like to bring to your for the 100th time that "I" brought wiki policy to everyone's attention and nothing has come of it...for the last time: is there some place where I can go where an editor can read my grievence? and not spout off wiki policy which I have already quoted, listed again and again and again and again and again and again and again and which WAS NOT / HAS NOT BEEN FOLLOWED? thanks --Art4em (talk) 07:27, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I advise not using capitals per WP:TPG as it's considered "shouting". If you disagree with deletion of an article, see WP:DRV to contest this. You should consider whether your interpretation of wiki policy is not in accord with the wider interpretation of it.  Ty  00:16, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:NPA

 * Although I recognize this is a borderline action as per WP:UT, I have taken the liberty of redacting a number of Art4em's personal attacks towards me which I find highly offensive. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:51, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Image:Lg_test.gif listed for deletion
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Possibly unfree Image:MerryKarnowsky.jpg
An image that you uploaded or altered, Image:MerryKarnowsky.jpg, has been listed at Possibly unfree images because its copyright status is unclear or disputed. If the image's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the image description page. You are welcome to add comments to its entry at if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Nv8200p talk 20:04, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I may be wrong, but I deduce that you are not LG Williams and are not the copyright holder on this image. So I have changed the licensing tag from to  . If this is wrong, please feel free to change the copyright tag back. Also, the permission letter did not specify a release under GFDL. It just said "permission to use". This may not be specific enough. We'll see if the image gets an OTRS ticket gets or not. They may request more specific wording. -Regards Nv8200p talk 11:29, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for your interest and attention. Please tell me the exact language you would perfer and would satisfy wiki administration 100% and it will be sent to both immediately.
 * Again, all the best and respectfully--Art4em (talk) 17:11, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This should work :My name is LG Williams. The wiki image “MerryKarnowsky.jpg” is my image. I took the picture, I photoshoped the image, and I hold the copyright for it. Thank you for protecting it. I release this image under the GNU Free Documentation License. -Regards and thanks Nv8200p talk 01:20, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is the wiki confirmation: Re: [Ticket#2008103010007064] Wiki Image Permission I have rec'd via cc. Thank you. Can we consider this closed? --Art4em (talk) 06:40, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I have withdrawn my nomination and removed the "Possibly Unfree Image" tag from the image. I consider the issue closed. Thanks for your help. -Nv8200p talk 01:09, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:DrawingUponArt cover.jpg
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Articles for deletion/Party Down Scandal (LG Williams)
I have said all that can possibly be said regarding this article, above in multiple comments. While I did say that you could repost with 'one more reference,' I did not expect it to come from your own webspace on GeoCities. Neither did I expect it to be a copy of an already existing reference in your article, to wit, the Artweek "news item". It is a dangerous trend to accept a presumed web capture of an old reference, from a source (you) that has a conflict of interest in the article, and doesn't go over well among Wikipedians. Even in assuming good faith, however, it is unlikely that such a resource can be considered a strong support for notability.

Therefore, reposting does not guarantee permanence here. I expect to continue this discussion on the Articles for Deletion page. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 20:50, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks will lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Edward321 (talk) 15:21, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I reiterate that the obvious consensus, the eight unique objections to the article, versus you, is Wikipedia policy. I suggest that you investigate Deletion Review to pursue this matter further, and do not expect myself or other editors who've opposed the article to change our minds without a substantial improvement in your sources. That means different, reputable, and verifiable ones. On a personal note, this is not a personal issue, so please desist from the personal affronts and insults directed toward editors who happen to disagree with you. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 22:24, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Artweek
You left me a message about this. I have not commented on it. I think you have posted to the wrong page.  Ty  00:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

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Warnings
Welcome to Wikipedia. Everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia. However, talk pages are meant to be a record of a discussion; deleting or editing legitimate comments, as you did at Talk:Gardner's Art Through the Ages, is considered bad practice, even if you meant well. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. AngoraFish  木  21:06, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

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May 2010
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war&#32; according to the reverts you have made on Gardner's Art Through the Ages. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period. Additionally, users who perform several reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. When in dispute with another editor you should first try to discuss controversial changes to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. Should that prove unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. Please stop the disruption, otherwise you may be blocked from editing. Gerardw (talk) 12:43, 16 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Excuse me for pointing out the obvious again and again to the hive: I would appreciate it if you "learned editors" would read the topic and history before you engage in platitudes -- or a popular European article making the circuit today is "How To Comment On An Article You Haven't Read", ie say SPAM or DELETE or BUILD CONSENSUS EVEN THOUGH WE DONT! In other words, first, once you have reviewed the history of the page in question THEN practice what you preach. I would love to hear your comments besides the cut and paste platitute that is not pertinent to the wiki person being violated.


 * For example, if discussing changes before coming into a page and saying DELETE or SPAM is what you suggest, then why didn't the vandalizing Wiki patron who first started vandelizing follow those guidelines? The history of the page is CLEAR. They clearly DID NOT follow what you suggest. Deletion and Platitudes (like, um, SPAM!) are neither "discussing" nor "consensus" building: they are simply vandalism.  The page was fine for a year before the "learned editor" with no knowledge of the subject whatsoever came it and just started deleting WITHOUT DISCUSSION et al. Therefore, before you do the same, please read the history of the page in question then comment to the appropriate person inside your hive, not me.


 * Finally, that the content is directly related and linked to the work in question IS without a doubt...please suggest any stylistic suggestions that would build the page and content -- or you can keep your little unlearned page to your little amazing hiveminds. Ditto for below. --Art4em (talk) 08:43, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Please do not add promotional material to Wikipedia, as you did to Gardner's Art Through the Ages. While objective prose about products or services is acceptable, Wikipedia is not intended to be a vehicle for advertising or promotion. Thank you.  freshacconci  talk talk  14:49, 16 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know what editorial planet you reside, but I do believe that the two books are intimately linked, say, um, firstly by their title. So let me rest my case. However, if you would like me to go on to describe and demonstrate the intimitely linked chapters I would be happy to in grand fashion? Um, then to go the the website. Then, um, go to the Publisher. In short, please take your nonsense claims elsewhere. --Art4em (talk) 07:04, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

July 2010
Please stop. If you continue to add promotional material to Wikipedia, as you did to Gardner's Art Through the Ages, you may be blocked from editing.  freshacconci  talk talk  12:38, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

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September 2012
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Nomination of Rat Bastard Protective Association for deletion
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