User talk:Arthur Smart/Archive 02

Late night and Insomnia
Note: Copied from User talk:Hourick: Man, you're up late tonight (like me). So, when are we going to go out for a beer? I live in the SW part of Houston. You? --Art Smart (talk) 07:32, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * LOL. I wouldn't be opposed to a beer thing with several wikipedians. Lord knows we have a few here.   I'm mostly up because of insomnia, though. hmm..I wonder if there is an infobox for insomnia? :)--Hourick (talk) 07:37, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm up editing, encoding and uploading footage from a high-dollar commercial shoot I did a while back. While I wait for my system to do its various things, I catch up on TiVo recordings and check Wikipedia stuff.  Saw a recent edit of yours, and had to give you a shout-out.  If you ever want to share a beer, then shoot an e-mail to [mailto:Art@ArtSmart.tv?Subject=Wikipedia's%20Hourick].  I've had lots of written interaction with fellow editors (haven't we all?), but never spoken to a single one, much less seen one in the flesh.  Just thought it might be fun to chat.  Thanks.  --Art Smart (talk) 07:48, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Heads up re: Oni Ookami Alfador
Note: The following is copied from User talk:NeilN for my future reference:

This message is with regards to User talk:Oni Ookami Alfador which refers to me. After putting up with repeated personal attacks within Talk:Dell, Talk:Dell, and User talk:Arthur Smart/Archive 01, I have now decided to seek formal resolution, probably starting with a request for Third opinion. I will be alleging his calling me a whiner, a hypocrite, and an irritant, and his templating a regular. Each time that I have request he cease his personal attacks, they only have continued.

If you wish to intercede prior to my taking formal action, that is fine. It is also fine if you decline to get involved. Thanks either way. --Art Smart (talk) 19:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Heading to WP:3O is probably best as I also disagree with your edit. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  20:39, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Will do. Your disagreement with my edit has nothing to do with the alleged personal attacks.  The former is about the content, the latter is about the contributor.  By convoluting the two issues you've convinced me that you couldn't be an unbiased third party, so WP:3O is best.  Thanks anyway.  --Art Smart (talk) 20:49, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I thought you were referring to the article. WP:3O usually deals with articles.  WP:RFC deals with user conduct. -- Neil N    talk  ♦  contribs  20:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Will do. Thanks again.  --Art Smart (talk) 20:55, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Or try WP:WQA - it's usually quicker. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  20:56, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Much obliged. I've never before dealt with such persistent incivility before, so I'm a newbie to these ropes.  Thanks again.  --Art Smart (talk) 21:01, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Finally got around to filing the WP:WQA complaint. Thanks again.  --Art Smart (talk) 10:35, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Years
This WikiProject is having a revival and is trying to determine the direction it will be heading in the future. Questions are being asked, and exciting things are coming in the future, including the bringing of 1345 and other year articles to GA and even FA status. You are listed as a member and are invited to respond to this roll-call by putting an asterisk next to your username on the members list to show that you are still active in the project. Thanks. Wrad (talk) 20:25, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Careful!
Your last edit at Talk:Barack Obama, which I'm pretty sure was meant to revert vandalism, actually reinstated it. In the edit you reverted, the IP user had actually removed previous vandal's post. Easy mistake to make, I almost made it myself. --Clubjuggle T / C  01:43, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * So you are saying that the N-word vandal actually removed someone else's vandalism? Sheesh.  While I certainly would not have asked the question posed by 85.2.231.69, it looked like a good-faith question.  Now that I see his/her similar question elsewhere, I suspect you might be right about bad faith.
 * I see you reverted this edit, but you did not issue a warning for it. Just curious as to why not.
 * I am very loathe to alter other people's talk page entries. Perhaps my bar is too high.  Please advise me as to what the criteria should be.  Thanks.  --Art Smart (talk) 12:37, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Both vandalism edits had already been made and reverted before I issued the warning, so I only issued one warning. Had the vandalism then continued, I would have escalated from there. Keeping in mind that the purpose of the warnings is to get the vandal to stop, it's generally better to start at level 1 and escalate if the vandalism then continues (allowing, of course, enough time for the vandal to see the message before assuming they've ignored it). --Clubjuggle T / C  12:54, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * For the record, here you went straight to v4im, and I heartily agree with you on that call under the circumstances. When I subsequently noticed additional (but much less egregious) vandalism, I issued a v1 warning, but I inserted it above your v4im since it was a lower level warning.  Unlike you, I always issue warnings for vandalism, so that when others see the warnings, they know at a glance how many acts of vandalism have been committed.  However, I don't escalate the warning level unless enough time has elapsed to reasonably conclude that the vandal has seen the warning.  In other words, I won't hesitate to issue, say, five v1 warnings all at once, just to document that five acts of vandalism have been committed.


 * As to my question regarding altering other editors' talk page entries, you seem much quicker to do so than I. Again, what are your criteria?  Thanks.  --Art Smart (talk) 21:04, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, twice I've asked, and twice you have ignored my question. Perhaps you edit other editors' talk page entries arbitrarily, or at least with an arbitrarily low threshold as to what you personally think might be vandalism.  Please advise if my assumption is incorrect, otherwise I'll assume it's the truth.  Thanks.  --Art Smart (talk) 08:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Copy of User talk:Oni Ookami Alfador

 * The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Notification of WP:WQA complaint
This is to formally notify you of a complaint I have filed at Wikiquette alerts. Please feel free to respond there. Thanks. --Art Smart (talk) 08:59, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi there - I'm looking through the WQA complaint above. If you have a response, can you please make it at the page? It's generally preferrable (particularly for the record) for the subject (yourself) to respond directly prior to the issuing of Wikiquette Alerts or closing of complaints. Cheers - Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:00, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't really feel the need to justify it with a response. It may not have been the wisest choice, and I will keep that in mind in the future, but I find it difficult to act any more civilly than I have to anyone who has immediately taken a condescending tone with me from the outset of our interactions (not to mention editing my talk page comments) and edit warring with other editors prior to my arrival.  It is from this that I laid my observation of hypocricy and quite frankly I'm sticking to it.  This seems to me as simply a content dispute being taken to a forum where it doesn't belong under the guise of some indignancy.  If the editor involved really feels the need to grind his axe I don't mind, it doesn't interfere with my day-to-day, but I see no reason to get further involved just to see things (most likely) get inflamed further--  Oni Ookami Alfador Talk 18:09, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

For the record, I take great exception to all of Oni Ookami Alfador's characterizations, above. Some of those characterizations are not just matters of opinion, but factually incorrect. But since he's just a young kid in college and probably doesn't yet know how best to conduct himself, I'll take the high road on this one and just leave him be for now. --Art Smart (talk) 23:18, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Copy of Wikiquette alerts/archive48

 * The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

User is aware of this report and says he will try to improve. Good enough. If there are further issues, feel free to contact me personally. El_C 19:08, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Oni Ookami Alfador
Most of Oni Ookami Alfador's personal attacks against me occurred a while back, but today I discovered his personal attacks have continued against at least one other editor. Here is a summary in chronological order:

12:03, June 1, 2008 - Oni Ookami Alfador's personal attack: called me a whiner

13:09, June 1, 2008 - my 1st request for him to stop personal attacks: here

13:04, June 3, 2008 - Oni Ookami Alfador's personal attack: called me a hypocrite

13:21, June 3, 2008 - Oni Ookami Alfador templated a regular: here

04:39, June 5, 2008 - my 2nd request for him to stop personal attacks: here

04:43, June 5, 2008 - my 3rd request for him to stop personal attacks: here

07:53, June 5, 2008 - Oni Ookami Alfador's personal attack: called me an irritant in his edit summary

08:34, June 5, 2008 - my 4th request for him to stop personal attacks: here

07:39, June 24, 2008 - Oni Ookami Alfador's personal attack: against another editor

If Oni Ookami Alfador could tone down his personal attacks in the future, I think we all would find it very helpful. Thanks. --Art Smart (talk) 08:56, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Nothing severe, in that month-old exchange (disengagement ought have happened half way into it). You say there's something recent...? El_C 10:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Against me, yes, a month old. Against another editor, much more recent, escalating within the past two days.  No downward trend in incivility, insofar as I can determine.  I just happened to stumble upon his latest dispute with the other editor (who, as a newbie, did not respond as appropriately as a seasoned editor would), but there may be other recent examples.  I didn't want to look up all of Oni Ookami Alfador's contributions because I didn't want to appear to be cyberstalking.  However, if you'd like me to do that research, I'd be happy to.  Thanks.  --Art Smart (talk) 10:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Let's start with a link to what happened today. El_C 11:03, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I assume Arthur is referring to the exhange which started with this and ended with this. Characterising this as an example of incivility worthy of censure is somewhat typical, considering the way the discussion on talk:Dell went. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It looks like everything was going fine with that exchange until Oni Ookami Alfador involved himself in it, for no apparent reason and seemingly out of the blue. Nothing too severe, but there is no need to go look for tense interactions, either. El_C 11:40, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

There are some issues with civility here, but there are some things that are kinda insignificant - things often get heated so you need to develop a tolerance for it, or move past it, even if it's ignoring it or dismissing it as utter BS.

It's generally preferrable not to template the regulars, but keep in mind that it's the norm never to strictly enforce this particular guideline. Did you point him to the relevant guideline?

Editors aren't required to read through all policies and guidelines (although it'd be helpful if they did!), so you need to WP:AGF and give them the benefit of the doubt. Your repeated warnings against personal attacks seem to assume that he knows WP:NPA - did you (or anyone else) actually point him to the policy? Or has he explicitly shown his understanding of this policy elsewhere by citing WP:NPA or WP:CIVIL in another discussion? (Btw, thanks for providing diffs). Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:25, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Good point. At Talk:Dell, he often wikilinked to various policy guidelines, which gave me the impression that he was well aware of all guidelines.  But I don't think he ever did so with WP:NPA or WP:CIVIL specifically.  I presumed, perhaps incorrectly, that he was well aware of the guidelines against personal attacks.  In retrospect, I should have linked them for his easy reference.  Thanks.  --Art Smart (talk) 15:19, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, no personal attacks and civility is a policy, but before commenting further, I'd like to give him a bit more time to make a response (if at all) to the concerns here. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.