User talk:Aurochs2

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Aurochs morphology img
Hi!

I wan´t to ask you: why do you take out the aurochs morphology img?

I need a explanation for that.

If you are Tom Hammond, so you can take out the img, and I will not need explanations.

If you aren´t Tom, I will report your actions.

Greetings!

--Aurochs1 (talk) 01:34, 29 March 2012 (UTC)Aurochs1

Miguel,you were only suppose to add that image to the Spanish language Wikipedia article about aurochs, not the english version.

Remember writing this? "I like to use one of your drawings (slightly modified by me) for the Spanish version of the article "aurochs" in wikipedia." Aurochs2 (talk) 05:16, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Tom
Yes I remember that.

I take out the img inmediately and i promese don´t post the img again in the article. :)

Greetings Tom!

PD:

What do you think of the white aurochs?

Do you believe may have existed?

--Aurochs1 (talk) 16:50, 29 March 2012 (UTC)Aurochs1

I imagine there were some due to albinism, but I doubt it was a normal color phase. Aurochs2 (talk) 17:38, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Look the next lascaux img, the aurochs looks like a mootly bull: http://www.memo.fr/Media/Lascaux_taureaux.jpg

I think it is possible that some aurochs were white. I have the theory:

I think it is likely to exist in nature: black, white and red aurochs, the colors we see in cattle today. But the weather conditioned the frequency of each color of the aurochs. Is possible that in colder times (glaciations), white aurochs had more success, because it is confounded with the ice and snow, and were less likely to be eaten by wolves, or hunted by humans. In more recent times, the ice began to recede, so the white aurochs were more exposed to no longer be camouflaged in the forest, so, only the black and red aurochs prevailed. Finaly, the red aurochs could be hunted much more easliy, because its color didn´t help them to camouflage in the dark forest. The black aurochs was more difficult to see, so this animals suirvived until the extinction of the aurochs in Europe.

What do you think? It is very important for me to know your opinion about that theory Greetings!

About red aurochs: The next img shows a red male (The morphology don´t agree whit a female):http://www.19thpsalm.org/Ch01/Astronomy_files/Pleiades-Taurus-Orion.jpg

--Aurochs1 (talk) 02:11, 30 March 2012 (UTC)Aurochs1

I have my doubts that aurochs were white. We still have large animals like the musk ox that are dark in color, but live in the arctic regions. I believe the reason that they haven't developed the strategy of blending into the snow covered background is because they can defend themselves by fighting back, or the herd acting as a way to protect themselves. From written accounts we know that aurochs defended themselves in the same manner.

As for the cave painting of white aurochs, there likely other explanations. It could be depicting albino aurochs, similar to the american indians holding reverence for albino plains bisons. Their rarity making them stand out. It could be that artist didn't want to spend the time coloring it in. From what I know about those particular cave paintings is that they are close to life size. http://vorige.nrc.nl/multimedia/archive/00120/lascaux_120277a.jpg That would be quite a task to color in completely when you have to do it by torch light. I also doubt the red bull aurochs idea. Since the coloration of aurochs is the result of testosterone, or lack there of. The same as their closet relative, the banteng. It could depict an particular male that was injured in the genital area, and therefore losing his black coloring. This is known to also happen in banteng.

Have you ever watched the movie "Cave of Forgotten Dreams"? It's a documentary that was made in 2010 ago about Chauvet cave. The research which is being done on the cave art is very informative. Some of the painting were done thousands of years apart. There is even a depiction of a half bison, half man.

A couple of other points. Notice how Musk ox are referred to as "ox" even though they don't resemble an actual steer. They're rather bulky looking animals. Also the the bison/man I believe shows that you have to be careful of taking cave paintings too literally.Aurochs2 (talk) 15:30, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Tom!

About the color of the lascaux paintings:

The next image shows a bull whith a full black color: http://madamepickwickartblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/lascaux7.jpg

In the next img, we can see some white aurochs whit a full colored horses. http://www.donsmaps.com/images19/hallofbulls.jpg It is possible that different images have been painted at different times, but one of the aurochs clearly looks mottled.

The basic colors of cattle today are coffee, black, red and "white", so it is conceivable that these colors also could have occurred inthe nature. The different images that differ up to thousands of years may be a point in favor of my theory: The Uros were painted white in the glaciations and aurochs of other colors in warmer times. Of course it is just a theory, and while there is not convincing evidence like remnants of hair or aurochs frozen of many specimenes, it is valid to think of several options.

There are in lascaux some images that clearly shows black cows (we had already discussed this) http://donsmaps.com/images25/blackaurochs1947sm.jpg (These cow looks pregnat) http://donsmaps.com/images25/aurochsandhorseslascaux1947sm.jpg

Maybe the previous examples, escaped from the sexual dimorphism for some reason: "Black color expression without the need for hormonal stimulation by a genetic mutation", or simply the sexual dimorphism was not a strict characteristic in the aurochs.

About the aurochs like steer:

In some oxen we can see a good size and a great "giba": http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4079/4912428661_1b00157404_o.jpg

In other oxen we can look big head, whit big nose and good horns: http://www.grimshaworigin.org/images/NorthAmerica/OxenInMexico.jpg

Some oxen have a very special head morphology: http://www.milkingdevons.org/images/oxen002.jpg

Plinio in the early times of Crhistian era wrote: " Little is know about that in Germany named "Boum ferorum". When the Ovibos moschatus was named musk ox? In recent times than Plinio.

Greetings! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aurochs1 (talk • contribs) 05:30, 2 April 2012 (UTC)