User talk:BAyyub

Center for Technology and Systems Management
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August 2008
Please do not add copyrighted material to Wikipedia without permission from the copyright holder. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. Toddst1 (talk) 00:19, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Copyright Issues
Thank you for clarifying the source of the material you contributed and who the owner is. Unfortunately we can't leave it at that if we're going to use the material. We need you to verify with the Foundation that you are the real copyright holder and understand the legal implications of putting your copyrighted work on Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation has established specific licensing guidelines that we need to follow.

If you still wish to grant Wikipedia the rights to this material, follow the instructions at Requesting_copyright_permission. It has all the info you need. Be sure you understand the rights to the text that you will be giving up. Then, you'll be granted what's called "an OTRS ticket" that shows Wikipedia has been granted the rights to the text and then you can post the material verbatim.

We don't accept copyrighted work outside of that process in order to protect the holders of copyright, both from others posting their words on Wikipedia, and from unknowingly signing away their rights.

I hope you understand that refusing all copyrighted work until we have real evidence that it's been released into the GDFL is the best way to make sure we aren't violating anyone's rights.

I hope this helps. Toddst1 (talk) 00:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, and I should have said, "Go Terps!" 8-) Toddst1 (talk) 00:46, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Conflict of Interest
Hello, BAyyub. We welcome your contributions, but if you have an external relationship with the people, places or things you have written about in the article Bilal M. Ayyub, you may have a conflict of interest (COI). Editors with a COI may be unduly influenced by their connection to the topic. See the conflict of interest guideline and FAQ for organizations for more information. In particular, please:


 * avoid editing or creating articles related to you and your circle, your organization, its competitors, projects or products;
 * instead propose changes on the talk pages of affected articles (see the request edit template);
 * when discussing affected articles, disclose your COI (see WP:DISCLOSE);
 * avoid linking to the Wikipedia article or website of your organization in other articles (see WP:SPAM);
 * exercise great caution so that you do not violate Wikipedia's content policies.

In addition, you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation (see WP:PAID).

Please familiarize yourself with relevant policies and guidelines, especially those pertaining to neutral point of view, sourcing and autobiographies. Thank you. Zell Faze (talk) 13:30, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Notice of Conflict of interest noticeboard discussion
This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Conflict of interest/Noticeboard regarding a possible conflict of interest incident in which you may be involved. Thank you. Zell Faze (talk) 13:43, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Please stop
Wikipedia is not a vehicle for promotion. See WP:PROMO.

And you must stop editing content directly about yourself or the institution you lead. If you do not understand the WP:COI guideline, please ask. You will face an indefinite block from editing Wikipedia if you continue. Jytdog (talk) 15:50, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Please also note that editing under a different account is a violation of the WP:SOCK policy and can also lead to an indefinite ban.  User:Robmishra appears to be a SOCK. Jytdog (talk) 15:54, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Hello Jytdog, User:Robmishra is not SOCK. The changes were undone. Please help me to revert to the 2015 version, and provide specific comments that are suitable for making edits/revisions to address any concerns that you might have. The coverage and style used in the 2015 page are in agreement with accepted practices -- please see other bios of renowned engineers/scientists. I am happy to address any specifics. Please stop making changes, deleting all existing content and reliable sources in the 2015 page, and offer specific comments to address. Thank you.


 * Please read the WP:COI guideline and follow it. Please read the WP:MEAT portion of the WP:SOCK policy.  As an academic and director of a center I would expect that you are familiar with the concept of "conflict of interest" in publishing.  Wikipedia is a scholarly resource valued by the public; protecting the integrity of Wikipedia matters.   You are dramatically ignoring the COI guideline here in Wikipedia. I would happy to provide guidance to you on how to edit Wikipedia where you have a conflict of interest but proceeding as you have been, is not OK.  As I said, please ask if you need guidance.  Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 20:40, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

I read WP:COI guideline. I am familiar with the COI concept as used in academia. I have been in academia for 32 years, and am frequently asked to provide biographical information, articles and opinions that in many cases rely on my and other published works. I cite all key items carefully and appropriately. I totally agree with you, the integrity of Wikipedia is very important. I am a frequent user of it and promoter of its use to my students and colleagues.

As background, the page in question was started in about 2008, and received significant changes and updates to enhance citations and some content in 2015. This COI situation has not been raised, or if it were, issues were addressed. The pages have been cleared by Wikipedia volunteers and used for many years. I am happy to revise the 2015 page to meet the COI requirements, but need help. I am not very knowledgeable with the Wikipedia protocol (like this page) and interfaces, but willing to learn. I would like you to re-examine the last 2015 version, and give me specific comments. I am more than happy to address all concerns. Please do not have all the content since 2008 deleted and started all over -- this is not fair. The current version is a chopped out piece of the 2015 version that would require me to bring so much of the old content which seems now is not acceptable. Most citations (if not all) in the 2015 version are of high quality, and I know that they meet the requirement of most reputable archival journals. I have been the editor of several academic journals. As for the Center for Technology and Systems Management and BMA Engineering, I direct both and do not know how to best cite them. I could delete them, but it would lead to significant information loss to users.

As suggested, I read and thought of the Trust test: "[W]ould relevant others ... [readers, editors, admins, arbitration committee, Wikimedia Foundation] ... trust my judgment if they knew I was in this situation?" The page in question passes this test. It is factual, and designed to helpful to the users of Wikipedia including governmental agencies, policy makers, journalists, researchers worldwide. Please help me to keep the useful content, cite it properly, cleared from Wikipedia, tagged as needed, and publish it. Thank you for your help.
 * Please note that I am not discussing article content with you here. I am discussing your behavior, which has been violating the COI guideline as well as MEAT.  Once you understand the COI guideline and the MEAT policy -- each here in Wikipedia which is not like other places --  and agree to stop violating them, we can move to discussing content, and we will do that at the article Talk page.   So if you read and understood the COI guideline, this means that you will stop directly editing the article about yourself and your center and the journal you started, and will instead offer proposals for changes on the Talk pages of the relevant articles, right?  And if you have read MEAT this means that grad students who work for you will no longer be directly editing these articles either, but will instead declare their COI and will also offer changes on the Talk page, right?  Jytdog (talk) 22:33, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I understand now, and will not make any edits to any page until I fully understand the process and then follow it. Thank you for the clarifications. What is the next step?
 * Great. Please feel free to offer content suggestions on the Talk page of the article about you.  Please make sure that content you propose complies with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.  I will provide a quick overview of them for you below. Jytdog (talk) 23:25, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

How to edit
OK, so I would like to get you oriented to how Wikipedia works so that the content you suggest on Talk pages will be useful. There are some non-intuitive things about editing here, that I can zip through ~pretty~ quickly....

The first thing, is that our mission is to produce articles that provide readers encyclopedia articles that summarize accepted knowledge, and to do that as a community that anyone can be a part of. That's the mission. As you can imagine, if this place had no norms, it would be a Mad Max kind of world interpersonally, and content would be a slag heap (the quality is really bad in parts, despite our best efforts). But over the past 15 years the community has developed a whole slew of norms, via lots of discussion. One of the first norms, is that we decide things by consensus. That decision itself, is recorded here: WP:CONSENSUS, which is one of our "policies". (There is a whole forest of things, in "Wikipedia space" - pages in Wikipedia that start with " Wikipedia: AAAA" or for short, " WP: AAAA". WP:CONSENSUS is different from Consensus. )   And when we decide things by consensus, that is not just local in space and time, but includes meta-discussions that have happened in the past. The results of those past meta-discussions are the norms that we follow now. We call them policies and guidelines - and these documents all reside in Wikipedia space. There are policies and guidelines that govern content, and separate ones that govern behavior. Here is very quick rundown:


 * Content policies and guidelines:
 * WP:NOT (what WP is, and is not -- this is where you'll find the "accepted knowledge" thing. See also WP:NOTWEBHOST and WP:PROMO, each of which you have been violating)
 * WP:OR - no original research is allowed here, instead
 * WP:VERIFY - everything has to be cited to a reliable source (so everything in WP comes down to the sources you bring!)
 * WP:RS is the guideline defining what a "reliable source" is for general content
 * WP:NPOV and the content that gets written, needs to be "neutral" (as we define that here, which doesn't mean what most folks think -- it doesn't mean "fair and balanced" - it means that the language has to be neutral, and that topics in a given article are given appropriate "weight" (space and emphasis). An article about a drug that was 90% about side effects, would give what we call "undue weight" to the side effects.  We determine weight by seeing what independent reliable sources say - we follow them in this too.  So again, you can see how everything comes down to sources.
 * WP:BLP - this is a policy specifically about articles about living people. We are very careful about these articles (which means enforcing the policies and guidelines above rigorously), since people have very strong feelings about other people, and about public descriptions of themselves.  We are very careful that BLP articles follow very reliable sources, and don't overemphasize good things or under-emphasize bad things, or vice versa.  Neutral.
 * WP:NOTABILITY - this is a policy that defines whether or not an article about X, should exist. What this comes down to is defined in WP:Golden rule - which is basically, are there enough independent sources about X, with which to build a decent article. The article about your center was deleted because it had no independent sources and was obviously created to promote the center and yourself.

In terms of behavior, the key norms are:
 * WP:CONSENSUS - already discussed
 * WP:CIVIL - basically, be nice.  This is not about being nicey nice, it is really about not being a jerk and having that get in the way of getting things done.  We want to get things done here - get content written and maintained and not get hung up on interpersonal disputes.  So just try to avoid doing things that create unproductive friction.
 * WP:AGF - assume good faith about other editors. Try to focus on content, not contributor.  Don't personalize it when content disputes arise.  (the anonymity here can breed all kinds of paranoia)
 * WP:HARASSMENT - really, don't be a jerk and follow people around, bothering them. And do not try to figure out who people are in the real world.  Privacy is strictly protected by the WP:OUTING part of this policy.
 * WP:DR - if you get into an content dispute with someone, try to work it. If you cannot, then use one of the methods here to get wider input.  There are many - it never has to come down to two people arguing. There are instructions here too, about what to do if someone is behaving badly, in your view.  Try to keep content disputes separate from behavior disputes.   Many of the big messes that happen in Wikipedia arise from these getting mixed up.  (Note - I came here to your Talk page, to talk about your behavior, as I noted above.  We can talk about content, at the article talk page, and when we do that, that discussion will be focused on the whether the content complies with the content policies and above.  This is keeping behavior and content separate)
 * WP:COI - we have discussed this
 * WP:TPG - this is about how to talk to other editors on Talk pages, like this one, or the one in the article about you: Talk:Bilal M. Ayyub

If you can get all that (the content and behavior policies and guidelines) under your belt, you will become truly "clueful", as we say. If that is where you want to go, of course. I know that was a lot of information, but hopefully it is digestable enough.

Please make sure that any content you propose, complies with the content policies and guidelines. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 23:30, 24 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I will read these important items.
 * I have a couple of questions. Why this page in particular was selected? I examined other pages, for example George Klir, Lotfi Zadeh, Dan Frangopol, etc. and found the coverage, citations, etc. of similar nature. This page was created in 2008 with subsequent edits -- why now?
 * I thought that we would start with the 2015 content as the proposed change, and then you would offer me with specific suggestions/concerns for each item. I am unsure how to handle specific items such as books, major reports, guides, awards, etc. In light of all of these constraints, please provide me with an example page of a living person/scientist/researcher (with similar record type) as an example of an appropriate page.
 * Would you please sign your posts? You do that by typing exactly four tildas after them, like this ~ .   Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 00:09, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Got it. Please advise on next steps. Thank you. 173.73.28.152 (talk) 00:37, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
 * As to why the article about you? If you lift your eyes up this page, you will see that someone named Zell Faze noticed your COI editing and provided you information about the COI guideline, and you will also notice that the same person created a posting at the COI Noticeboard about your editing.  I spend part of my Wikipedia time working at that COI noticeboard, and working with editors like you who are unaware of, or who ignore, the COI guideline.  I try to help them understand why managing COI is important in Wikipedia, and provide guidance about the COI guideline.
 * Let's see, about model articles.... as I noted above, there is a lot of bad content in Wikipedia so take caution in using other biographical articles as models. I looked at the Lotfi A. Zadeh article and it is not a bad example. It is pretty well sourced and pretty neutral, and if you look at its editing history a lot of people have worked on it.  Guy Nordenson is pretty good as well.  If you look at the history of that article, it appears to have been created by someone related to Nordenson or by him himself) but that editor put the article through the articles for creation process, so it underwent a peer review (as that is done here in WP) before it was published.
 * Please do review the BLP policy. Everything - everything - in the article needs to be reliably sourced per WP:RS, and most of the sources used should be independent of you (written by other people, about you)  The next steps are for you to propose whatever changes you would like to see at  Talk:Bilal M. Ayyub.   Jytdog (talk) 00:39, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Proposed content
I am planning to make the changes in several requests in order to learn the process and style. This would help me to have better requests in the future. Please note that I am following the styles in Guy Nordenson and Lotfi Zadeh.

Request 1:

Please replace the following paragraph:

Bilal M. Ayyub is a professor of civil and environmental engineering at the University of Maryland, College Park since 1983, and the director of the Center for Technology and Systems Management (CTSM) at the university. He works in the areas of risk analysis, uncertainty modeling, decision analysis, and systems engineering.

With the following paragraph:

Bilal M. Ayyub (born 1958) is a risk analyst, reliability engineer, mathematician, and professor of civil and environmental engineering at the University of Maryland, College Park (UMD) since 1983, and the director of the Center for Technology and Systems Management (CTSM) at the UMD A. James Clark School of Engineering. He attended the Georgia Institute of Technology, graduating with a Masters of Science in Civil Engineering in 1981 and a Doctorate of Philosophy in 1983. He earned a Bachelors of Science in Civil Engineering from Kuwait University in 1980. He works in the areas of risk analysis, uncertainty modeling, decision analysis, and systems engineering.

Reason: To add education, and that the CTSM is a unit of the James Clark School of Engineering. Also, the footnotes were directed to a more reliable and better maintained sources.

I have a question regarding sources and links, does WP prefer internal links or external links for sources? Also, I noticed that the Center for Technology and Systems Management page was deleted. I have to address this item later. Thank you. BAyyub (talk) 00:53, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Responses...
 * Edit requests go on the Talk page of the relevant article, so this should be at Talk:Bilal M. Ayyub.
 * Please never embed an external link in the body of an article - never do this: University of Maryland. It is fine to "wikilink" where ever that is actually helpful to clarify something that is not otherwise obvious.   Never write content like this:  the sky is blue."  That is what we call overlinking.   The content above is overlinked - everybody knows what a "mathematician" and "professor" are. And if you are going to link to the engineering school there is no reason to also link to the UM article.
 * It is OK to have some external links at the end of an article, in an "External links" section. See WP:EL and especially the WP:ELNO part of that. Jytdog (talk) 01:26, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. This is helpful. I changed the paragraph to the following:

Bilal M. Ayyub (born 1958) is a risk analyst, reliability engineer, mathematician, and professor of civil and environmental engineering at the University of Maryland, College Park (UMD) since 1983, and the director of the Center for Technology and Systems Management (CTSM) at the UMD A. James Clark School of Engineering. He attended the Georgia Institute of Technology, graduating with a Masters of Science in Civil Engineering in 1981 and a Doctorate of Philosophy in 1983. He earned a Bachelors of Science in Civil Engineering from Kuwait University in 1980. He works in the areas of risk analysis, uncertainty modeling, decision analysis, and systems engineering.

What do you think? If it is fine, please update the page; otherwise advise. Thanks. BAyyub (talk) 01:45, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * What is the point of providing three sources that you yourself created? I would not implement an edit with such sourcing.  Also everything needs to be sourced.  Everything.  None of those sources mentions a masters degree (and no one cares, if you have a phd, as you well know) and none of those sources mentions Kuwait.  Those two things are not sourced; the only one you might care about is Kuwait. Jytdog (talk) 02:04, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

I followed the styles of Guy Nordenson and Lotfi Zadeh for degrees and sources. Please provide help and examples. Should I delete the education and degrees? Do you have suggestions how to fix? 173.73.28.152 (talk) 02:21, 26 March 2016 (UTC) BAyyub (talk) 02:22, 26 March 2016 (UTC) Is this a suitable source http://ucmcons.ku.edu.kw/ku/News/KU_011225 ? BAyyub (talk) 02:29, 26 March 2016 (UTC) Another source: http://www.ovpr.kuniv.edu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=423:risks-of-extreme-sea-level-and-weather-conditions-due-to-a-changing-climate-on-may-14-2013&catid=39:Announcements&Itemid=52 BAyyub (talk) 02:31, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

I found very reliable sources: PhD https://smartech.gatech.edu/handle/1853/21476?show=full PhD, MSCE and BSCE Page 240 of http://docplayer.net/3530582-University-of-maryland-administrators-and-faculty.html Thank you. BAyyub (talk) 02:56, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * i didn't say anything about the PhD so this is irrelevant.  From a scholarly perspective I don't trust some document that some person uploaded to Docplayer.  I am surprised that you would.  The publication of your talk at Kuwait is good enough for your degree there.  Not great but good enough... Jytdog (talk) 03:00, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

I have NOT uploaded any documents to Docplayer (did not know it can be done, and presume they should be dated or attributed-- again do not know, picked it up by searching using Google). FYI, the content most likely came from the official UMD web site that I have found only today at http://apps.gradschool.umd.edu/catalog/faculty/a.htm It shows the official listing Ayyub, Bilal M. Regular Member B.S., Kuwait University, 1980; M.S., Georgia Institute of Technology, 1981; Ph.D., 1983. - Professor, Engineering: Civil and Environmental Engineering - Professor, Applied Mathematics & Statistics, and Scientific Computation Please advise on next steps and any other changes necessary, and I am happy to work on them. Thanks BAyyub (talk) 14:14, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I didn't say that you uploaded anything to Docplayer. Please don't react so strongly to things I am not saying. Jytdog (talk) 17:26, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Agreed... What do you think of the listing at http://apps.gradschool.umd.edu/catalog/faculty/a.htm Does this meet the sourcing requirements? What should I do next to have the paragraph updated? Thank you for all your help. BAyyub (talk) 17:57, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Sure that's fine. I will update the page later today. For future edit requests, please make them at Talk:Bilal M. Ayyub. That is where they belong.  I won't respond if you put the next one here again. Jytdog (talk) 18:04, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I understand now, and will use Talk:Bilal M. Ayyub. 173.73.28.152 (talk) 18:14, 26 March 2016 (UTC) Sorry for the IP signature. The system keeps logging me off although I click 30 day access. BAyyub (talk) 18:17, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Hello Jytdog: Did you have the chance to update the page? Please note that future requests will be at Talk:Bilal M. Ayyub. Thank you for helping all the way through this fist request. BAyyub (talk) 00:48, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
 * This edit has been implemented, so I am marking it as answered so as to remove it from the backlog. Altamel (talk) 03:59, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

talk thank you.