User talk:BT2/archive0

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Hi. Not sure about the old ID, but I've posted your question to Help desk. They should know. Best, [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 03:39, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)

Slovene vs. Slovenian
Why do you keep changing Slovene to Slovenian? --romanm (talk) 09:26, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC) Answer given in Romanm's talk.


 * Even after reading the discussion in Slovenians, I still do not have a clear understanding why Slovenians would be preferred to Slovenes. As you have actively participated in the debate, I would be very thankful if you put together a list of pro et contra arguments, like Nohat did for Slovene/Slovenian. In my opinion, the litteral translation for Slovenes would be Slovenci, but Slovenians would translate as Slovenijci. --Eleassar777 07:39, 16 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I would like to thank you again BT2 to denote me as a narrow-minded (Slovene ozkosr&#269;en, duševno omejen) or audacious (nesramen). It is really not fair that you are saying that. Firstly because I was user here long before you came - and you have never tried to discuss a subject, but you just started to revert everything that suits you. How many times do we have to say to you that Slovene and Sloveanian are still equal words in English? Look for Eleassar777, for instance. He came to WP some months ago, and as I see it, he used many times words Slovene, because they are still used. (See for instance his template creation Slovene at Commons on 24th of April 2005). I never did a mess here around as you've said at Roman's talk page, but you did a mess. Why? I was trying to say something about Slovenia and Slovenes and began to write articles about the language and about some great Slovenes. Then you came and you tried to persuade all that those terms are internationally preferred and so on. Come on, man. I was always trying to do my best. But if I think and if I am deeply convinced about something I just won't give up so easily. Sometimes I really wanted to stop editing in English Wikipedia, just because of people like you. And finally, did you know that Ilmen Slavs are also known as Slovene - here I see a slight imperfection of English, because it translate a Russian word &#1057;&#1083;&#1086;&#1074;&#1077;&#1085;&#1077; directly. In Slovene language this word might be called Sloveni (or even Slovenci - Slovenes). --xJaM 21:58, 18 May 2005 (UTC)


 * BT2 or whatever who you are, please read this dabate (Are people from Slovenia called Slovenes or Slovenians?), which deals this issue and I advise you that you do not delete contributions on talk pages of other users. They are not garbages at all. If there are grammar error in them, you might correct them, but it is not a fair game to just delete them. You can archive them. Another argument for the favour of Slovenes would be, that if we make a list of Slovenians (that is citizens of Slovenia), what should we make for the list of American Slovenians, if Slovenian is an adjective for the one who lives in Slovenia. I should say American Slovenes. If you are still going to delete my contributions, I shall protect the page. --xJaM 14:45, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * XJam, I deleted your post on my user talk because you are a hypocrite and I am sick of your GARBAGE. You've replaced Slovenian with Slovene in articles created by others, but you blast others (namely me) who replace Slovene with Slovenian. As for American born citizens of Slovenia, they are called American ex-pat Slovenians. The same is with Italians, Germans, Austrians, etc. You are not simplying things by adding new definitions for obsolete words used by only a fraction of the English-speaking world.  -BT


 * To be honest, I many times used Slovene, but also Slovenian. I don't prefer one form over the other. I think both forms should be accepted as valid as Wikipedia does not prefer one form of English over the other or at least as long as it takes to reach a consensus. -- Eleassar777 [[Image:Slovenia flag 300.png|20px]] my talk 07:12, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Please respect Wikipedia's policy No personal attacks. This refers to both of you. It also would be nice if you BT signed yourself by four tildes ( ~ ) or at least if you beginned adding a date to your signature. Thanks. -- Eleassar777 [[Image:Slovenia flag 300.png|20px]] my talk 07:18, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I respect this policy. I do not attack BT2. I do not replace 'Slovenian' with "Slovene" in articles created by others (see Joseph Stefan, Savinja, Slovene language, ...) recently I just do that at klopotec and perhaps in some more - but just beacause that other users are perhaps too afraid to change that. I am not afraid of, if I know I'm right. As Eleassar777 said the consesus about using 'Slovenian' instead of "Slovene" was not yet reached. But, since I am here for a quite long time, I follow the policy that Wikipedia can use both terms and that articles related to Slovene were written here first. After some time then came also categories, and some users have made another chaos from them. BT2 perhaps you try to write something, instead of just reverting other's hard work. You do not respect my contributions here - and I am not native speaker of English, so you can imagine that I have to spend more time to reach at least fairly degree of goodness than one English native speaker. You have denoted me as a narrow-minded, audacious and now a hypocrite. I do not insult you and I just can defend myself and say that I thank you for that. But in fact you are shameless (nesramen). I have to 'blast' (what does this mean - naj ga vrag vzame) namely you, because mostly is you who is replaceing "Slovene" with 'Slovenian'. What is term "American born citizens of Slovenia"? Baraga and many others were American citizens long before there was a country or state of Slovenia. They are caled 'American ex-pat Slovenians. By whom? If term American Slovenes is not correct, please corect it and do not teach those who do not speak the native language. A term in Slovene is called Ameriški Slovenci. I can't help if you're sick of me (my talking is not GARBAGE - watch your words) - another thing to think: if we would directly translate 'Slovenian' to Slovene it would be Slovenijani, Slovenijanci, Slovenijci and so on. So simple word - Slovenci (slovenski) and so many hard words about it. A shame. --xJaM 10:04, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The discussion we had yesterday was transferred to Talk:Slovenians. If you wish to continue it, please provide new arguments and references, as otherwise I'll consider it finished and the conclusion reached that Slovenes is the most commonly used term. In either case, both terms are used and should be used according to Naming conventions, similarly to what I have written below for the word Slovenian/Slovene.

I apology for incorrectly restoring the original of Ivan Cankar. I also restored the original of Vrhnika, in the manner the original contributor put it in. For the sake of consistency, I did not change Klopotec.

Another thing I want to point out is that actually it does not matter how incredibly odd the word Slovene is. The only important thing is that Slovene is one form of English and is still used by some. I don't claim at all that it is used more or that it is more modern than Slovenian, but Wikipedia respects all versions of English: British, American, Canadian, Australian, Indian etc. and if the original contributor chose the term Slovene, then it shall remain so - I apologized for Cankar above - unless if the word (Sloven*) is itself part of the article's title or its part of an official name or both versions have been used in the text. In that case, the most common term should be chosen. Otherwise please do not change the word Slovene to Slovenian anymore, if Slovene was used firstly. If you want to see any of these words used more frequently, write new articles where they will be used. If you think my explanations are not correct, then do not revert but explain yourself. Thanks. -- Eleassar777 my talk 22:06, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If I resume, we have two different opinions regarding the use of the words Slovenes and Slovene. I argue these are completely legitimate English words and are still used by many people, the word Slovenes even more than Slovenians. I have provided references for Slovenes. You say these two are obsolete words and should not be used. I could agree as regards the word Slovene, if someone else speaking English natively would confirm it. As we seem to be in a tie, perhaps it's time to ask for a third opinion, although it will perhaps take awhile for someone else speaking English as his/her first language to answer (a week or two). I'm sure bringing someone else in the discussion will not cause harm and as we say in Slovenia, ve&#269; glav ve&#269; ve (more people know more). What do you say? In the meantime, you can provide references that show that Slovenians is more often used than Slovenes. I would be glad if you proved your claims. I remain open to changing my mind. Also note that I have not evaluated yet what you wrote about British Library, but even if this is not a reliable reference, there are still others. -- Eleassar777 my talk 08:33, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

OK, now I have searched in British Library again and as described in Talk:Slovenians, British Library has more hits for Slovenes (19) than for Slovenians (4). -- Eleassar777 my talk 08:50, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have another idea; we can ask for opinion of other Wikipedians whose mother tongue is English, they are listed here, here or here. We can have an opinion survey or something like that. Some of them will surely respond. Do you find it reasonable? -- Eleassar777 my talk 09:32, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I only wish to say that if you have replaced Slovene by Slovenian in articles, you should explain to people that had used Slovene in the beginning why you have done so, as otherwise some may consider it rude. You can find their user name in the history of the articles. As for XJaM, wait a bit more before reverting him as I expect that he will be able to understand why Slovenian is better when he will have read my last post. If not, we have a bit of a problem. Leaving this aside, I'm happy that you have been so persistently and courageously defending your point. Happy wiki-ing! ;) -- Eleassar777 my talk 08:22, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Alternatively you can leave a message on the talk pages of the article. -- Eleassar777 my talk 08:45, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

American Slovenes
Why are you reverting this article - American Slovenes? This is almost a vandalism, because I have added some other infromations. Judith Arlene Resnik might have Slovene origins. In the article it is written now that she was Jewish. Many Slovene surnames are "Resnik", Vili Resnik a well known singer for instance. If you will be doing futher on in this way, I shall report you. I can not find any sources for now (just one dead link) and I shall do some research for it... I am here also informing you that Eleassar777 did not persuade me and I can not understand why using 'Slovenian' is better in any way. And please do not think that I am stubborn! And I shall revert all your reverts of original namings of "Slovene" if I have to - as long as some good consensus is not reached. --xJaM 23:32, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am here also informing you that Eleassar777 did not persuade me...

No surprise...I warned him you are a hopeless irrational. "My [Slovenian] gimnazium teacher taught me Slovene was right and that's all I need to know!" Pathetic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BT2 02:56, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What is pathetic? What do you need to know? I do not understand. I am not irrational and I am pretty much of rational nature - you can see my contributions all over, do not judge just with one or two terms that do not suit you. And stop vandalizing my work. --xJaM 15:54, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Okay BT2 what can I say more? I am prepared to use 'preferred' terms here (just for the sake of the order), but you must know that your actions do not show high productive work. You could simple say some words at talk or user talk pages that something is not right or correct, and then others would act according to your perceptions instead of just reverting on and on. You should also respect that these terms are still valid (at least according to sources which are available to non-English native speakers). I have endeavoured myself and translated from Russian into English a whole article for Aleksandr Lyapunov and many others (from Slovene Jožef Stefan, Janez Strnad, Herman Poto&#269;nik Noordung, Hipparchus, Kidinnu, Nabu-rimanni, ~ (you must consider also their contents, not just translations)) and you have nothing else to correct or to add than just reverting terms "Slovene"/'Slovenian'. I hope that now this discussion has ended (only if some consensus for naming them is on the rise, it will be open). And if someday it will be perhaps shown that I am right I won't accept no apologizes. --xJaM 18:31, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)