User talk:Bakermannn/Archive 1

Information
Hello!

I am sending this so to inform you I have added my input on the Messi and Iniesta subject you created in the talk page of the list-article of footballers with the most official appearances.

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 12:57, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

A small note about Messi's numbers (just so you know)
Hello! Regarding Messi's addition on the list with the most official appearances, the numbers are exactly as you say, i.e. 997 games and 782 goals (and by team the ones you also have), based on the known databases, but I would like to add that RSSSF's Prolific Scorers Data includes 2 more goals and 2 more matches, though they take into account (based on the description of their list) the All-Star games (which are considered as official by many FAs), games with continental selections (in his case would be with South America or Americas selection) or World XI/Rest of the World (their matches against national teams or other continental selections or World XI are considered as official even by FIFA) and of course they take into account also the cancelled games. That said, I can trace his two more goals are coming from this match (K-League All-Star Game), so also the 1 of the 2 more games. The other game I cannot trace, but I believe it most likely is a cancelled official game, because in the last 10 years I mainly watch FIFA XI, South America XI, et c. matches, and I don't remember Messi in them, which is logical since in the last 10 years or more they prefer to have a team with mainly recently retired players than currently active ones. Anyway, while I understand the reasoning behind RSSSF's inclusion of that match, if Korean FA considers it official, since Barcelona doesn't, and as that has the most importance (priority for his stats with Barcelona), we shouldn't include it on the list with the most official appearances. Unfortunately, while RSSSF's prolific scorers list has detailed stats on many of the players, they don't have for Messi, so to be able to find-figure out where that other match comes from... By they way, you can see here the total numbers of Messi and they even have top 10 "RSSSF's" prolific scorers list (scroll down) there, but without including those 2 more matches (and the +2 goals). I am telling you this because I think it's useful information to know, and also so possible confusion to be avoided. Kind regards! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 18:12, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Sorry. Found another game I had totally forgotten, which seems more likely to be his +2 goals from there. It was something called Copa Mundo Maya 2012 and took place on 16/06/2012 (Estrellas de America vs Estrellas de México 5-3). Lorry Gundersen (talk) 19:20, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Xavi
Hello!

You are right about the extra 7 matches with Al Sadd... sorry, forgot to check the club career statistics and its sources... I will correct it on the list, and add a link/hyperlink in the edit reason linking to the discussion where you explain why the total is 117.

Regarding the extra topic:


 * Copa Catalunya (since 1989–90 season) and Supercopa Catalunya are definitely considered official by FIFA/IFFHS and RSSSF, and I don't know any FA/country that doesn't consider their matches (of course talking since 1989–90 season in the case of Copa Catalunya) as official. Regarding FIFA/IFFHS, see this (it's in Spanish). However, worth noting here once more that the matches with a "national" team of Catalunya are something totally different, as while Catalunya exists as an area within Spain, it does not exist as a separate nation, and this is why the matches of a national Catalunya team are not recognized by FIFA. Catalunya Cup and later Catalunia Supercup not only are recognized, but they are very prestigious among fans around the world.


 * Now, even though they are official, the level of the matches in them many times is "snobbed" by football "journalism", to the point that sometimes there are confusions: for instance, see this (in Spanish), which is about Messi's new contract with Barcelona where it says about bonus gains based on the amount of matches played, excluding Copa Catalunya (not saying those are not official), and the same article/news cover in English is this, where it says at the end "Messi accepted, but in the event that Catalonia became independent, he would become a free agent. In addition, the Copa Catalunya matches were not considered official matches and therefore did not count.", which can be misunderstood easily, but it means "were not considered official matches, even though they are"...


 * Regarding Messi's official matches with Barcelona, it's 778. Here it's worth noting he never played any match either in Copa Catalunya or Supercopa Catalunya (players.FCBarcelona profile, where you won't see any match listed even though as part of Barcelona team he is credited with the trophies, and you can also see here "Con el FC Barcelona también ha sido campeón de la Copa Catalunya (2004-05, 2006-07, 2012-13 y 2013-14) y de la Supercopa de Catalunya (2014-15), aunque nunca ha tomado parte en estas dos competiciones."), and it is right Xavi has 779.


 * I am pretty sure the record of Messi breaking Xavi's numbers came from "journalists", not from statisticians, where, wrongly, attribute those 12 matches of Xavi as friendly (?!), for example here. Unfortunately, journalism in football has always been problematic and mainly "serving fans" for profit, while ignoring stats. This is why, for instance, Gerd Müller was made a record holder by journalists for having scored the most goals in a year (while Chitalu was ignored), and later Messi was again attributed with breaking that record (Chitalu again ignored), again by "journalists". This "record" wasn't declined by Barcelona and was celebrated, even by Xavi (based on the news), but I can't find a statistical source claiming the matches in Catalunya Cup (at the times Xavi played) and Catalunya Supercup were not official, only the "news" to support Messi's "record". That said, I do understand this may sound weird, taken into account the resounding of that record in the news, but, unfortunately, such things happen all the time (unfortunately, much of the football journalism is unreliable). By the way, for information only, Messi did play in Copa Catalunya (in the Copa Catalunya Juvenil actually) in cadete/youth level, but we don't include such numbers (Under-X numbers in club level). Source here.

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 08:52, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello again! I was looking for similar lists on the web and I have found these three: one (Xavi has 1143 matches, this is the closest to the 1148 of the list and pretty sure the closest to reality since it's coming from a Spaniard – this list claims the data to be coming from FIFA, but they can't be linked), two (Xavi has 1135 matches) and three (Xavi has 1133 matches), and, since the criteria of what matches/from which competitions count and what not aren't clear in them, it's understandable we can see deviation in the appearances number of the players, but all have one thing in common, and that is that Xavi is in all of them above Roberto Carlos (and also the top outfield player), which was never the case in WP, so I am positive the list now is closer to reality. Also, while WP is not considered reliable, we do include sources directly or indirectly (from footballers' biography articles) and I consider the WP's most appearances list accurate enough. Cheers! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 09:46, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello! In addition to what was previously said, I would also like to add, so to be clear, that the matches with Copa Catalunya, apart from being official, don't differ at all from the matches in state cups and state leagues in Brazil, which we include for the Brazilian players in the list, and since regional level and its matches are included, it is also fair Copa Catalunya to be included. In addition, complementary and necessary for their inclusion is their traceability, i.e. that we have a database mentioning the Copa Catalunya (and Supercopa Catalunya) matches for all players. That said, coming back to the "national" team of Catalonia case, if there is a site-database that lists all Catalonia "national" team matches (including players), I wouldn't mind them being included even in the counts of the players (next to a note saying these matches are not recognized by FIFA and UEFA), since we are talking about a WP (an encyclopedia) list, and not a FIFA list, but, unfortunately, there isn't one and these matches don't seem to have been covered even in the news, the majority of them, in fact their "cover" in WP is also a chaos... Also, while the level of the matches is not in question, for the people who doubt about the level, I must say that the matches with B teams (e.g. 3rd league matches with Barcelona B) included in the list are of much lower level than those in Copa and Supercopa Catalunya, which is also many times the case for state league and state cup matches for the Brazilian players, having to play, e.g., with Serie D opponents in the state league. Cheers! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 08:17, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Iniesta
Hello!

I thought it would be useful information to add a note (only on a note, not to be counted in the total, only as trivia for the player) on Iniesta in the list with the most official appearances that he also played 2 matches for Catalonia national team, but there is no source for that, and I can only find proof of having played once in 2004: see here and here (in Spanish), and in a site about Barcelona players you can find only the info "Player of the Catalan national team", so I was thinking if perhaps you can find source(s) to justify having played two matches for Catalunya? By the way, even in WP (which is highly unreliable as a user-generated site) there is chaos about stats with Catalonia: not only many players (including players like Di Stéfano, Johan Cruyff, Hristo Stoichkov, et c., and even Pepe Reina) who seem to have played with Catalonia are missing such info from the infobox, but many from the ones who do have don't also include sources to back those numbers (like in the case of Iniesta).

On another topic, I added in the list his 5 matches for Catalunya Cup (there was already a ref for this), which hadn't previously been included, since that's not only an official competition (his matches there were official), but also a prestigious one, even though it's only regional. If you disagree with this addition, please tell me why...

Cheers! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:26, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello again! I am informing that I also changed his matches with Barcelona B from 54 to 49, based on the sources in existence (source actually, i.e. the only one that includes his numbers with Barcelona B), so the total went back again to 1,003. That said, it's possible the 5 matches for Catalunya Cup to have been played with Barcelona B instead of Barcelona (A) or counted there in the tally. Anyway, this is minor regarding the sum. Besides, in lack of other sources that can claim those were with Barcelona B, we have to attribute them to the A team, based on the current refs. Kind regards! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 12:35, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello! I wanted to add this (2 matches with Catalunya) only as an extra information in a note, not in the total sum, and, since it says he played twice in WP, I was looking for proof he played twice, but I am only finding sources he played once... anyway, that's minor (it's only a note that can be omitted after all, or we could put he only played once, in case we cannot find trace for more appearances), but there is another issue, more important, which is there is(are) no source(s) to justify his stats with Spain U15, U16 and U17, and I am currently looking for them... if you have ones handy, already know ones, please add them... Kind regards! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 14:26, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello again! I am currently adding on the list info about matches with "unofficial" (in quotes because those sometimes are considered as official ones) selections-teams (like league selections or Catalunya "national" team, et c.), only as trivia/additional notes though, not to be counted in the total, and soon I will add for the Catalonia "national" team (Xavi, Iniesta – if I cannot find info Iniesta played twice for them, I will make a note that he additionally played for Catalonia "national" team, without naming the times, it's trivia information after all), just so we have a greater "coverage"/the whole image... if you have any objections to this, please tell me. Regards! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:48, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Graham Alexander
Hello!

TOPIC 1 – Burnley: The one match not listed, even though counted in the total in SoccerBase, was with the reserve team of Burnley in the Premier Reserve League North group. The U-23 clubs in England are the equivalent ones to B clubs in other countries (e.g. Liverpool U-23, which includes U-23 players and 4 overage ones, is equivalent to Barcelona B, Sporting Lisbon B, et c. in other countries) and they play (anymore) in separate Reserve Leagues and Cups of lower levels (in cups like EFL Trophy). 178 is the correct number. By the way, while transfermarkt (hyperlink here) is not reliable because it's user-based (like WP) and refs from it are better not used, you can see (if you scroll down) that match listed while not being counted in the total there (which is 177).

TOPIC 2 – Scunthorpe: The correct number is 202 matches, not only because it comes from 11v11 (Association of Football Statisticians), which is "strong" (reliable) enough, but also because that's the number also in the English National Football Archive (ENFA). Specifically, Graham Alexander has 2 more matches played in 1991–92 season not included in his Career section in his WP biography article (I don't know in which cup/competition, because they are under a column named "Other", where the League Cup is also included, and the total from that season is 11) and, finally, also because this can be crossed with the time/date he made 1,000 appearances (with 200 instead of 202 he wouldn't have reached 1,000), which is crucial in the count because the stats are seen thoroughly before a 1,000 appearances feat is published in the news. Also, this book mentions 200 appearances as "pro", which doesn't include 2 matches before being a professional: he made his debut in 1991, but he already had played twice before when he was still part of the youth team and hadn't signed a professional contract.

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 19:31, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Fábio and Zanetti
Hello!

I have come lately to the conclusion that oGol (and of course also its mirror sites like PlayMakerStats) are including official matches played with B/U23 teams, but they don't have separate slots for them and attribute those numbers to the A team instead, while FootballDatabase does have separate slots for them, but they don't have the numbers/stats. Now, if you see Fábio on PlayMakerStats he has 3 more matches with Cruzeiro between 1999 and 2000, where those have a tick sign on the left, which means those were confirmed, and if you go to his FootballDatabase profile you will see Cruzeiro B in 1999 and 2000. Also, I must add that oGol should be preferred over Cruzeiropedia, which is like WP, i.e. a user-based/user-run site, and so less reliable. While FootballDatabase is mainly good only for numbers in Europe, as many times it's missing numbers for South America, regarding B teams, it does include B teams for the majority of the players, even though they don't include the numbers. In addition, oGol has also 2 more matches later (can be seen only if you make the total count for matches with Cruzeiro because the total on a year differs compared to Cruzeiropedia), so this overall +5 seems more likely to be true. Please tell me if you agree or disagree, and why...

P.S. I still haven't checked if Dani Alves has 250 or 249, but I have it in mind to do so later...

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 14:33, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello again!

An addition to this is Zanetti's numbers, who has 861 with Inter instead of 858, with all numbers confirmed, which is what baffles me, if we consider that once you said oGol sometimes includes friendly matches. So, this is why I don't think that's the case, but instead I think those extra numbers are coming from B and C teams, which they lack the detailed stats, but they can confirm the total. Please tell me what you think.

Cheers!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 15:14, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello!

The article about 900 overall matches (friendlies included) from Cruzeiro could be well referring only to Cruzeiro "A" matches, so when you make the cross-check with PlayMakerStats you still will have 3 matches less. Also, apart from the correlation with "Cruzeiro B" on FootballDatabase in 1999 and 2000, you can also see on this article: No primeiro ano do goleiro no Cruzeiro, foram poucas as aparições de Fábio no time titular, já que quem tinha a posição absoluta era André, which I understand as that he made "a few appearances", which means more than one, no? So those 3 more matches in oGol (that they also have a confirmed sign) could well be with Cruzeiro B. I mean, if he only played once, wouldn't they mention that instead of saying he "made a few appearances"? However, I haven't searched through the web extensively, and I do have to search more for info related to the B team...

Regarding Zanetti, while Italy doesn't have reserve teams (apart from Juventus), his 3 more matches could have been with Inter Primavera because the Primavera team was an U20 team including one overage player at the time Zanetti played, those could have been some matches during recovery either in Campionato Nazionale Primavera or in Coppa Italia Primavera, but I also need to make further research. In fact, the "Estatísticas completas confirmadas" is the one that baffles me the most. If those weren't ticked, I would definitely agree with you that there is some mistake, e.g. 3 matches in a friendly tournament regarded as official. While Inter does give 858, from the details on which competitions those were, it's clear those are his numbers only with Inter's A team.

Greetings!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 20:22, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

In addition, I would like to add that oGol, like official websites, often forget to include play-off and play-out matches, so it is possible those 3 more matches to have been after regular season, or even in qualifiers, e.g. CL qualifiers, i.e. the CL numbers in Inter's site could be missing 3 matches in the CL qualifiers, and this is something I will also try to find out. Regards! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 20:29, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello!

While the question is if he played 3 matches with the B team of Cruzeiro, since he is listed in FootballDatabase as playing with Cruzeiro B in 1999 and 2000, I also did search even for Vasco with "B" and "reserve" as keys, though I mostly found results about "Vasco da Gama cigars" (LOL). Anyway, as there is nothing about Cruzeiro B to support those 3 more matches, we will of course keep it as it is, which is also consistent with Cruzeiro's website, for the reason you explained, i.e. can be crossed with the time announcing 900 matches there. Now, for Zanetti I still haven't looked, but there will be update after I do. But what do you think about +1 match for Argentina U23, isn't it a clear +1 there? By the way, regarding Jennings, for whom I said the total will change, there are +5 matches with Northern Ireland U18 in 1963 UEFA European Under-18 Championship, which we haven't included in the list (ref here, and there is also extra info for playing there, which can be found by a simple Google search).

If additional info appears later on the web about having played matches with a B team, whether it was with Cruzeiro or even Vasco, even though the issue is for the first one, for which oGol has +3 matches as confirmed, and +5 in total (including 2 later, but those 2 could well be from a friendly tournament mistakenly taken as official, as there are some numbers later with statistics not confirmed), we will of course make the according changes. For the time being, his numbers are good the way they are.

Best regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 22:25, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Zanetti
Hello!

First, I am making a separate section on Zanetti so to keep things neat. Now, apart from the 3 more matches for Inter I would like to also debate with you a +1 match for Argentina U23, for which the case I believe, unlike those +3 for Inter, is crystal clear here, at least to me: his 12 matches for Argentina U23 are 6 in the 1996 Olympics (RSSSF source here where the lineups can be seen) and 6 in the 1995 Panamerican Games (RSSSF source with lineups here), where it must be said that Argentina sent their U23 national team, while until 1995 the tournament allowed senior national teams (this can be confirmed here – the source is "El Gráfico"). If you see his "International stats" in his 11v11 profile (hyperlink here) you will see him playing in something called "Copa Mercosur" in 1994–95 (the +1), which Copa Mercosur in RSSSF is covered (see here), where it says the semi-final was played with the national teams that played in the Panamerican Games, i.e. the Argentina U23, while the final was played with the U20 teams, which makes the +1 for the U23 national team. In addition, there is also a video proof on YouTube for that match where Zanetti can be seen playing (direct link here), where in the title "Under-23" is also visible, and this is why I am saying the +1 here is crystal clear. In addition, I even checked if that match in Copa Mercosur was attributed to the senior team, but it isn't: RSSSF link here, which shows that it isn't in the 145 matches with the senior team.

Please tell me if you agree or not...

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 16:22, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello!

Perfect, thanks! This way, it will be easier to check if he played on those 3 matches...

REPORT about the 1st match – He did play in the first one, the UEFA Cup match vs. Benfica... while even in beSoccer's lineups he is not included (see here), this match is also on YouTube, where the lineups are also in the description, where apart from mentioned from the Russian commentator in the beginning where lineups are cited (link here), if you go to minutes between 7:11 until 7:16, where it shows a replay, you can see him on the field where the armband is also visible (link here), also until minute 7:10, because I watched until then, while you can't see him (because the resolution is not good and the camera doesn't close up on him until then), you can spot a few times the number 4 on the shirt (Zanetti's number) from distance during the game. Probably if you carry on watching the match, you may see him in more phases or even in close-ups, but that's not needed, it's clear he was on that match. In addition, Footballia that uses lineups from a FIFA-related database, does include him in the lineups (see here). So appears to be a mistake on Inter's site, probably they retrieved his matches when counting from WorldFootball or beSoccer. In addition, see UEFA's report here and the one from La Repubblica, where Javier Zanetti is clearly mentioned not only in the lineup, but many times in the report.

REPORT about the 2nd match – There is no video for the match available, but only for its highlights, where J. Zanetti can't be seen, and on the web you can't find him listed on the lineup or in a report. Several reports about the match can be found listing C. Zanetti, even from Inter's site (see here) or an Inter-related site (see here), but, as those are from 2017 and 2016 accordingly, where they could have retrieved the match wrongly attributed to C. Zanetti from WorldFootball, I was looking to find out a report from 2005, and I did, once again, found the one from La Repubblica (see here). The only confusion could be created from this source, because it only says Zanetti without "C." or "J." in front, but there is nothing else... conclusion: he did not play in the 2nd match.

REPORT about the 3rd match – It's pretty much the same story with the 2nd one... no video of the match, only highlights where nothing to indicate that we can exclude J. Zanetti played, but the conclusion is the same, based on the other info found. See lineup from Tribuna here and report with lineups from La Repubblica here, also from EuroSport.it here, where the reserves include two C. Zanetti so made it clear it was not J. Zanetti...

So, conclusion, from those 3 extra matches oGol has, it appears Zanetti did play in only one of them, and it's undisputed I believe both from the report (the one at the time played) and the video proof of the match. What do you think? Sum up: it's +1 on the matches for Inter and +1 for his matches for Argentina U23, so, if you agree, please tell me to proceed with the changes...

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 01:25, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello!

I think you are right... first, I must say the best site for results of Polish teams is 90minut.pl, but they have no lineups in this case (source here), but the "report" of another famous site (gol24.pl), link here says the team of Inter included J. Zanetti, but this is coming from an article on 19/01/2019 (this one), so they could have used one of the known database that includes J. Zanetti for the lineup, and the solution is coming once again from La Repubblica, which is a report on the date of the match and has J. Zanetti staying on the bench unused (see here). In addition, the highlights of the match on YouTube coming from a channel called GM Mile - Archivio F.C.Inter, i.e. "GM Mile's archive of Inter", which has highlights for many old famous matches and even complete historical matches, do also agree with La Repubblica, by having in the description J. Zanetti not playing (see here), so yes, it seems Inter to be right after all, as well as FootballDatabase on his numbers with Inter. Furthermore, I tried to see the frequency of the appearance on the web of other numbers related to 858, like 861, 860, 859, 857 and 856, and, while I found that 857 is very popular, e.g. here, where it also says he made 615 appearances in Serie A instead of the 618 that the site of Inter has, and while 857 as the total seems to be too famous, I found this from Reuters, which is one of the top from the top most reliable sources worldwide and also this, which, after reading about him playing vs. Chievo and was validated after consulting the source, it's clear 858 to be the right number for Inter.

So, +1 for Argentine U23 it is, the rest stays the same...

Best regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 05:00, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello!

There is no problem at all if DBs mention those matches separately, which usually, when mentioned, it is done separately, since that's done for comparison purposes and statistics done by companies dealing with stats, since usually the case where, e.g., there are play-offs, play-out, qualifiers or preliminary matches, some teams play fewer matches and so there is an imbalancement if someone wishes to make a statistic where the matches played during the season are involved (whatever the operation: +, /, x,...) and you don't have the matches separately, i.e. that statistic will be "fairer" (more accurate) if calculated only during the regular season, when the players had the same amount of matches to play availability. That statistically is correct, i.e. for which I agree they should have them separately. The problem though usually appears sometimes that DBs don't include at all league play-offs/play-out matches, preliminary cup matches, et c., and those, unfortunately, are often kept out even in the official website of teams, which makes them unaccounted for. Now, regarding the article, yes, most likely leaves out those 3 matches, but saying 615 is also inaccurate, without mentioning at all the 3 play-off matches. If it said "he played 615 in regular season and 3 in play-offs", it would be accurate. Since he wants to use a total, it should be 618.

Regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 12:31, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Raúl
Hello!

First, just for information, I think I may have figured out why the Spanish list has Roberto Carlos with 35 matches for Atl. Mineiro, it must be a confusion with another player also called Roberto Carlos who played before him: if you see previous matches, e.g. 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991 from futebol80.com.br, which is another good site for results in Brazil (and lineups), you will find many times a "Roberto Carlos" listed, but this was another one, who, by the way, also played for Palmeiras in 1987, who even "older" in time played is Roberto Carlos 2 in Verdazzo (even the full name can cause confusion: Roberto Carlos da Rocha Melo). It must be this, because there is no other support that Inter's (of Milan) Roberto Carlos played in more than 3 friendly games for Atl. Mineiro.

Now, in case you know, I would like to ask information on something: Raúl's BeSoccer profile has him (not the initial page, but the one when you check "Career") with 742 matches for Real Madrid instead of 741 and 1 goal more... while B and C teams are well known by many other reliable sites, and there are also there (so obviously this extra match isn't with RM's B or C team), also his 741 matches can be confirmed by Real Madrid's site and a dozen of other reliable sources, so do you know if he played any match with RM that got later cancelled?

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 07:54, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello!

Yes, you are right... this was a friendly match, a match for the Trofeo Santiago Bernabéu (Spanish WP article, and English article here), which is definitely a friendly match (RSSSF's list with club friendly tournaments), and I believe it's only mentioned because it was a tribute/farewell (from RM) match (RM's link here), in which he played both for RM and Al Sadd. While there may be a possibility Al Sadd or Qatari FA to have counted this as official, it doesn't matter, as long as RM doesn't count it as such, and also because it was in a friendly club tournament...

Now, regarding the matches about "Legends" ("Leyendas" in this case) included in BeSoccer, the whether they are official or not depends. For starters, those are included on statistical/career info of players because they are highly regarded, as they are like matches of All-Star teams or League selects teams/the elite. While there is an according association, called International Master Football Association, which once held a World Cup of Veterans (called Copa Pelé), which was official (even though not by FIFA), from what I know, the matches where there is a team of legends in the new century (21st century) have been friendlies (you can see, for instance, quite many matches in Footballia of the kind, with all being listed as friendlies: link for Legends teams here and for RM Leyendas here), but I don't exclude the fact some FAs/some countries to have considered some of them official, e.g. if such is played in, for example, Saudi Arabia (for profit/advertising purposes) it wouldn't be a surprise if the according FA regarded it as official (this country is used only as an example, chosen randomly, nothing more), but in any way we cannot include them on the list, though we can do so in notes, for "completion purposes", because of being highly regarded matches...

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 15:22, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

František Plánička
Hello!

First, sorry for the delay to respond, I have to say I had also been away from my pass-revision from the players and addition of refs for where those were missing, but I recently have continued strongly with this and almost finished, and, by the way, I did find refs for Spain U15 Iniesta's number; at the moment the list is ok with references, except for two players: Rivaldo, whom I haven't yet checked, and Dani Alves, for whom I still want to see if he has 249 or 250 matches for Sevilla; unfortunately, there is no good link from a Sevilla-affiliated site for the total number, but there is still room for search. However, there is another issue, which I would like to discuss with you about, and it's about a player not yet in the list, whom as a name I knew, but never searched, and I recently came across again, František Plánička, who is included in a list of players with over 1,000 appearances (link here, where he has 1,042 matches), which is clear from the site of Slavia Praha (link here) that this number is 969 matches with the club + 73 for the national team, but there, in their link, they also have 4 more clubs he played for and a total of 1,442 matches. So, as with such numbers he will top the list, i.e. it would be a very important change, I would like an opinion here, since coming from the site of Slavia Praha seems pretty official to me. Additionally, I found other sites, which have him with a total of 1,235 matches (link here, which is in English, and here), which total seems to appear the most (for example, see also here, here and here, where in the last it's also detailed by team, a thing that makes it more "passable" to the list of players with most appearances), at a good enough amount so to think the more appropriate number for the list is 1,235, plus a note that, even Slavia Praha's site claims 1,442, the rest sources online don't agree with. What do you think?

Looking forward for some feedback.

Best regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 20:08, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Also, if you exclude matches with selects, in the ref that has those 1,235 in details, i.e. by team played, (link here) the total is 1.186 matches (where 73 matches for the national team are counted instead of 74, as there it says 74), and I would like to add that the ref from AD.nl (see here) talks only about professional and official appearances, and states clearly the matches are official, because Slavia's site could have totals (including friendlies). Best regards, Lorry Gundersen (talk) 07:53, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Dani Alves
Hello! Yes, you are right... First, also the other two cup matches Sevilla played that season do not name him playing (besoccer source vs Real Jaén and source vs CD Linares). Now, the source for 251 matches is this (already in his refs in the list), where it says he made his debut in the cup against Numancia in the 2nd leg as a change after 19 minutes in the 2nd half, but besoccer name Dani Bautista as the change instead of him and the only other source I could locate online for that match is this where it only says "Dani", so seems like a mistake-confusion because of the name.... so, for four reasons, first that I doubt it is a mistake in besoccer, as I don't remember him referred to as just Dani, but as Dani Alves in the sources, and second because other sources claim his debut to be some days later of the same month in La Liga (see this article, which is about facts about Dani Alves and mentions all his debuts, saying "Dani Alves made his debut for Sevilla on 23 February 2003 against Espanyol in La Liga."), the third reason is that there are no other sources related to that match, including photos and videos (checked even footballia) so we could figure out if the mistake is on besoccer or the two sources listing that match, and the fourth and final reason is the one you said, which is that playmakerstats while mentions/counts the cup game, it doesn't include other info/details. So, for the reasons mentioned before, I agree we should remove one match with Sevilla. Though, as there is a source with 251 matches and there are sources claiming 250 matches (for example, 250 first-team appearances), we do have another match in question, which has to be located and checked, so for now I am removing 1 and I will check year by year to see where the +1 match is coming from, and then see if I can find proofs of playing: if none are found, it will become 249. Thanks for the explanation. Regards! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 07:56, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello! Regarding the issue whether it's 249 or 250 for Sevilla, IFFHS gave a solution by making a post recently about his official numbers in the top level, and it's 250 (see link here), which in my opinion solves this, so do you also agree about 250? By the way, the numbers in their post agree with the numbers we have on the list, apart from those for Bahia, where they have 32 and the list has 58 (based on the ref here), and there is another ref having him with 54 official ones (see here), but I am sure he definitely has more official matches than 32 for Bahia, either with the 2nd team or regional ones that IFFHS is missing in their post, and of course their post is only about top-level numbers, so I am gonna look about this a bit more. So, to sum up, I consider the issue of 250 or 249 over, as it's not only in most DBs, including footballDatabase, but also coming from IFFHS, and his numbers for Bahia need further searching. Cheers! Lorry Gundersen (talk) 08:59, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Djalma Santos++
Hello!

TOPIC 1 – While that makes sense in relation to B club teams (on other players) being on separate lines, we cannot add TransferMarkt as a reference (someone will for sure remove it as non-reliable), so I think it's good the way it is, i.e. 178 as total, which is backed both from SoccerBase's total and the local Lancashire news from a football pundit (by Suzanne Geldard). Unfortunately, regarding players who played in UK and all players in general, many numbers they have/had for reserve teams are missing because they are also missing from the football databases (DBs). While SoccerBase includes this in the total, they don't have the match report (lineups, score, et c.), and they have actually only two matches listed in their DB for Burnely U-23 (see here). Like them, that's also the case with other DBs as well, but fortunately they include this in the total. Also, let's not confuse readers and other editors with U-23 club teams when we have the choice to not do it. Lacking info from DBs, the reserve numbers are usually coming from the websites of the clubs when mentioning or having an article about total numbers. Even ENFA does not include info for reserve teams, probably only for matches in major cups, since they include stats for the top 4 leagues only and (thankfully) for all major cups.

On another relative note, it must be said that even U-21 club teams numbers are relative to the list because these are equivalent to C club teams (U-18 and of lower age are youth, U-21 is C, U-23 is B), which are also missing for many players, but the list anyway is "solid" enough in my opinion, taken into acount the availability of the sources online and I could say "strong" enough, i.e. at a state where I deem the players in it to be comparable regards to the official matches played, which is what matters, only minor-unimportant deviations can be spotted.

TOPIC 2 – 174 is coming both from Club Brugge's site and the news, and can be also crossed with the time he was announced with making 1,000 appearances, which are good enough reasons. Also, you can't find (I couldn't find) detailed info: nothing on Lommel's website (some of the searches: here, here and here – only one relative result since the others are retrieved because they include a "Simon") – not actually the Lommel Simons played, but a "continuation" of that club following a merger. Is there a separate database for Belgian football statistics (including lineups and footballers), or even for Dutch football in general so we could also see the matches, lineups, et c.? Probably there is, but I don't know any. Anyway, still, if you have one match missing for Lommel, it probably would have been with their reserve team, since possibly DBs will not include that (will have only 173), since, as said in the previous topic, most lack this info, but totals from teams' website include them. By the way, relating to this is the case with DB's missing stats while having additional numbers in the total sums, like the oGol's "Sem Competição Definida", which could be numbers with reserve teams, which they sum up to the total, but they can't provide detailed info for them. By the way, the list had 171 before I made the change to 174, which I haven't any clue of where it comes from, since this player had zero references.

On another note, as you may have noticed lately, I am recently checking sources and based on ones found make changes – additions, deletions, corrections –, as the list had some major numbers not supported by sources... specifically, 6 players had zero references: Glenn Ferguson, Timmy Simons, Graham Alexander, Callaghan, Lampard and Hutchison, which was my main concern, and on which I added references, and now (next major concern) I am also looking for sources for the U-23, U-21, U-20, et c., national teams, which most were/are unsourced and I am also checking if existing sources are good enough for the numbers the players have: if not they are added if found... for the time being, I could say that players until number 10 (number 10 included) are "kosher" (with sources), soon I will add references on Zanetti (the total stays the same) and on Jennings (the total will change), and later will proceed with the next players. So, in a nutshell, I think until number 10 (soon until number 12) are well-referenced (with the appropriate notes where needed), but, still, as you may have also noticed, as I belong to the humankind, I am prone to mistakes, so please of course feel free to always debate about something you think is not correct/not supported well...

TOPIC 3 – National team: First, 98 appearances are supported both by NFT (link here), which is included in his refs, and RSSSF (see here), which make 98 kosher, and also NFT, which usually includes non-FIFA matches/unofficial by FIFA friendlies, does not include any on his case, which means other-extra matches attributed to him are coming from "obscure" competitions, unofficial friendlies lacking info or vs. "teams" that aren't good enough to be considered even "unofficial friendlies", e.g. there could be matches against a state selection, a city selection, non-footballers selection (e.g. Seleção Futebol Arte et c.), against national teams of lower categories, e.g. Brazil U-23, U-21, et c., which should actually be considered training rather even as unofficial friendlies, matches where 15 changes were made, the coach was the referee, et c., et c., because when the sources speak about a total matches with Brazil include these. This is why regarding his numbers with the national teams, I had added at the end a note in his references that says the number could well be 111 or 114 or even 133 among others, unofficial friendlies included, as an extra info, a note which you probably didn't see, but 98 is definite for the list... the note states that Palmeiras claims 111, CBF claims 114 in their newest – based on the date published – article about his total career and Santos even has 133, but the most common on the web is 111, which is probably because it's coming from Palmeiras' site. What's most common on the web is unimportant. The important is what CBF and Palmeiras claim, regarding a total "total" (even unofficial friendlies included), which, must be said again, is only as an extra trivial note-info, and nothing more. However, I noticed on later articles that CBF claims 113 instead of 114 (see article from 2019 and article from 2021), which means 1 match had been later removed from their total, so I will change the ref to the latest one (article from 2021) and make it 113 by CBF in the note.

TOPIC 3 – Palmeiras: While his matches are listed in Verdazzo, the most significance must be given to Palmeiras' official site rather than to their fans-based size, those 5 extra matches could once again be coming from the reserve team and are in lack of the detailed info to be included in the fans' site, which has only detailed matches, i.e. there is an accepted info in Palmeiras as a base he played in 4 more matches, but there is no proof for details. This number before was 501, which means they recently found info for one more match, and we have to consider their site more significant. Now, it must be said that CBF has 494, not even 497 (ref already in the list), which is the newest one regarding his numbers in clubs. The date is 27/02/2018, and they haven't released anything relating to his numbers with clubs since then (general Google search by site and search including Palmeiras – only the first 4 or 5 pages are relative, because the other results are irrelevant since it appears "Santos" to be a common name in Brazil, and also the name from a famous club), and the list previously had 501 (it became +1 from the same updated source). Also, most likely even CBF will have 497 or 502 next time they release something relevant since usually clubs precede the FA, which gets the info and proof from the clubs, but for now do you agree with leaving the number to 502 and a note that CBF claims to be 494?

If there is something I didn't cover, please tell me...

Cheers!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 17:26, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello!

The same question had actually bothered me some time ago, but that he has passed 1,000 official matches is included on books, sites and newspapers (with certain reliability, see Indepedent's article here, where you can also, by the way, see why he has 98 international undisputed matches while many times famously regarded also with 100 – apart from 111, 113, 114 and 133 –, and also he is not part of the FIFA Century Club), and in anyway the time Djalma Santos played was actually no distinction between friendly and official matches (for this also Pelé should have been on the list in my opinion, under the condition that "friendly" and "official" didn't differ in 1950s-1970s, and in general not before 1995), but I still believe those numbers in Palmeiras site are about official matches (and that Verdazzo must be missing matches) as, since I see the CBF's article in relation to official matches for Portuguesa (his friendlies there are not included) makes sense the same tactic to have been also followed for his numbers with Palmeiras. For Portuguesa the most famous number is 453, not 434, for instance see here (for Palmeiras here says 491) and here (now Palmeiras here has 498), but probably 19 matches were removed because this is always an ongoing research and are still gathering information so matches are added or removed (there are many old tournaments in question of whether they were official or unofficial), and the same also stands for Palmeiras. Also, you can see here 510 as the total, probably it includes friendlies, where for Palmeiras says 498, which is probably coming from what Palmeiras' site had that time... could it include friendlies? Yes, it is possible, but since CBF and later sites related to Portuguesa have reduced that number from 510 to 434 makes perfectly sense the same criteria to have been used for Palmeiras, i.e. for publishing 494, which is the number they have. In addition, since there is a source of 133 matches for Brazil, seems the same criteria to have been used for the national team's numbers, where 20 matches were removed (19 initially, then 20, because later publications mention 113), so to conclude that the numbers for the national team to be 98 undisputed official, and 15 unofficial friendlies, and the rest 20 are not good enough even to be called "unofficial friendlies". While we have no reason to not give ground truth same criteria have been used for Palmeiras, even if 8 additionally matches (that will make the total 502) could have been in friendlies makes no big difference and even if the number was 95, apart from the fact there was no difference at all with a friendly and official match, but all were competitive back then, and even some times friendlies against top teams were more competive than official ones, we still have to follow what CBF and Palmeiras claim on his numbers with Palmeiras. In conclusion, my only worry here is if it could be –8, not –95 (which also makes no difference at all, at least to me, taken into account when those matches were played – 1950s-1970s), with more chances to be –0, as usually FAs are the one that delay to "update". Additionally, later, when 502 appeared in Palmeiras' site, it was also adopted for publications (see here) and here you can see "more than 500". We keep it 502 so to be consistent and act accordingly to the next updates, especially from CBF... well, whenever they will publish something relative...

On another topic, I wish to cross-check something with you about Fábio, but I will do so on another section so to keep it "neat".

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 13:45, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello!

At that time I thought Verdazzo didn't cover his whole career in Palmeiras and I was eager to accept the total the site of Palmeiras had, but I saw they have records of matches since 1915, and I counted at least 70 friendly matches (including friendly tournaments, i.e. matches that don't have "amistoso" but the tournament name) before stopping counting for Djalma Santos (direct link for Verdazzo here), and I have reconsidered, I think we should remove him from the list. Do you agree?

Best regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 14:17, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

I am informing that I decided to remove him from the list: if there are any valid objections, we will reconsider and revert...

Regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 15:52, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Rivaldo
Hello!

Regarding his time in Olympicaos, the Greek sources have a total of 101 matches and 43 goals (with some 44 goals, but I believe this is a mistake), you can see 101 also on transfermarkt (link here), which though is in the "black list", and even in a twit (see here) from UEFA (via UEFA Europe League), which is "strong".

For example, some Greek football/sport news:

https://www.fosonline.gr/podosfairo/superleague/article/102279/rivalnto-o-olympiakos-apotelei-kommati-tis-istorias-moy

https://www.to10.gr/watch-me/watchmestories/1599931/olybiakos-magi-tziovani-rivalnto-ke-oli-vraziliani-pou-foresan-ta-erythrolefka-vids/

https://www.tanea.gr/2021/06/04/sports/football/olympiakos-oi-magoi-tziovani-rivalnto-kai-oi-ypoloipoi-vrazilianoi-pou-foresan-ta-erythroleyka/

https://www.thrylos24.gr/rivalnto-ta-gkol-toy-ston-olympiako-video/

https://www.redking.gr/content/football/40532-to-gkalop-ths-uefa-gia-ton-thrylo

The last two are sites with news only about Olympiacos.

Additionally, he appears with a total of 101 also in a site in English (see here), but I can't guarantee for any reliability or integrity of this site.

So I suggest a change to 101 (43 goals), what do you say?

Regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 23:12, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Perhaps you know any other than the usual sources for his numbers with Brazil U23/Olympic team and/or Brazil U20, as the list has him with 7 (1 goal) and 9 (1 goal) accordingly, but his WP bio-article has 8 (1 goal) and 13 (2 goals) in the infobox?

Best regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 20:01, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Yes, you are right... they count it twice, because they have recorded it twice, I will correct it on the list.

https://www.besoccer.com/match/goias-goiania/sao-paulo-fc/2011259188

https://www.besoccer.com/match/goias-goiania/sao-paulo-fc/2011204439 (duplicate page)

Regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 22:06, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

By the way, some info about the senior NT: CBF has him with 78 (38 goals) for the NT (see link here), RSSSF with 74 (35 goals), but last updated in 2014, and NFT as well, even though theirs is 73 FIFA + 1 non-FIFA, so they have 1 match less, but these are missing a match against Poland, which both oGol (which is the most reliable for Brazilians) and 11v11 include, hence the total of 75 (35 goals), and FootballDatabase includes 2 matches for Brazil B (1 goal): 11v11 backs this by having in the stats a total of 77 matches (36 goals), 78 if you count the match against the "Rest of the World", but listing 75 (35) in match by match, which means 2 (1) not listed had been with Brazil B, which is usually the case for B teams' numbers (same one for reserves, where they exist in the totals, but when listing the matches their data is missing), so the list now has 77 (36) including 2 for Brazil B, which is very close to what CBF has [78 (38)], but I couldn't find any good support for 78 (or even 79, as the Spanish counterpart list has, but they may have counted the match against the "Rest of the World", as not even CBF has 79). If you can find good references for 78 (+1 to the total), we could of course increase the number, backed by CBF's source, or even +2 if there are trusted sources for a total of 79. I personally don't consider CBF good enough, as it is known to also include unofficial matches in the total, so this extra 1 (2) could well be referring to an unofficial match.

Regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 23:33, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Roberto Carlos (again)
Hello!

Sorry to bring this back, but I have to say it seems he did play more than 28 matches for Anzhi: while I understand he played in 5 friendly matches, which +5 in oGol could be from there, i.e. a mistake, but it's not only fBref that has him with 29 league matches (direct link), even though they lack a log, but also that NFT backs this (direct link), which NFT has proven to be the most reliable for league matches stats, especially with B/Reserve teams stats that even other sources lack: 29 league matches + 3 cup matches (Anzhi's link) = 32 total, which makes oGol's 33 more likely; those 5 extra matches could have been 4 in reserve league and 1 in reserve cup or an earlier cup stage with the B team or A team not included in their site because of being preliminary and/or a match in small regional tournament/cup that is official by Dagestan. What do you say?

P.S. I haven't forgotten about Seaman...

Regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 08:45, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Unfortunately, not all B team numbers have different slots in NFT, but only the ones with more powerful and famous leagues, like Ligue 1, i.e. I don't find different rows for Russian clubs, so I assume they have a total including that sum along the A team, but I have no problem with doing what was done for Fábio; if someone questions the extra matches, we can that way have that covered, i.e. he may have played, but, in lack of other refs, he may not have played more games for Anzhi, even though I am more in favor of the idea of including them in the total, and also the +5 to Fábio.

Regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 06:20, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

David Seaman
Hello!

TOPIC 1: Yes, you are right, this was an official tournament, and I included the match on his QPR total, since it's on his ENFA profile, which also proves they are missing matches (a match), even from English clubs, because they have there 177 and not 178. There was already an earlier friendly commemorative tournament, called Football League Centenary Tournament, and then they decided to make an official one. See the NB here.

TOPIC 2: ENFA does have 564 matches, but they include only A team matches, while SoccerBase includes all official ones, i.e. also B and C teams' official matches, if they are available. 568 also appears online, e.g. here and here.

Best regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 02:08, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Thanks... based on ENFA, he did play in those three matches in question. Also, I made a season by season check with oGol and ENFA for QPR, because also oGol includes matches in cups not included in ENFA (which is only about official A team matches), and I found out +3 more cup matches in 1986/87 in oGol, +4 more cup matches in 1987/88 in oGol, +1 more cup match in ENFA in 1988/89 (the one about the centenary cup we already included on the list) and +4 more cup matches in ENFA in 1989/90 (plus one to those three you mentioned). Now, as ENFA has a total of 175 matches, where 5 aren't in oGol, we have 170 (in common) + 5 (in ENFA, not in oGol) + 7 (in oGol, not in ENFA) = 182 total for QPR.

Regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:10, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

I am informing that I will give my views on that site as soon as possible...

Cheers!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 03:01, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

There are various factors that make me think oGol to be more accurate than that site: first, I must say that oGol is not infallible, so they definitely could make a mistake on the 2 more cup matches, because QPR appeared that season to have played in 4 instead of 6 FA Cup matches, but, even without those 2 matches, there are still differences and credible/logical ones, which would still make him have 180 matches and not 175, even though accidentally as a total it's 175 without 2 matches, but by season there are differences.

Now, I must add here that the format of that site doesn't convince me at all, since, as a fan-base site, seems very primitive, and it is undoubtedly not thorough and exhaustive as they have him with 166 matches, which seems like an earlier version of ENFA, and that cannot be right; a player may have more matches than the ones in ENFA but never fewer (since they don't have reserve numbers, and of course I am only talking of official reserves numbers), and then (even though minor) a negative point is also the excel format which has totals (like there is only the league and a cup), it's not that excel isn't considered official (which is minor), but that there is much more work on the layout done on other sites of similar function, and so this also shows no major work; a good fans-based site should be both thorough and user-friendly.

Now, taken into account not only the availability of a young Seaman playing a logical amount of 5 or 7 more matches for the reserve team, but also the reality of the era in English football then; the years of Seaman playing for QPR coincide with the time English football was banned from European tournaments, so those years are full of small official regional tournaments/cups popping frequently, and easy those 2 matches could have been on one such a cup, but, in lack of a variable in oGol, to have been added as "FA Cup"; 7 more matches in that time for Seaman not only look normal, but they could even been considered fewer than the actual number.

Furthermore, the most common mistake by oGol is in the name or surname (for instance, remember Christian/Javier Zanetti's case and Fábio, who is known to have never played for Brazil but oGol has him with a total of 3 matches and lists 2, in which 2 matches, and this can be confirmed by 11v11, he didn't play, but another Fábio did), and that is because an attachment with only surnames can be accidentally accepted as a proof, so would totally make sense if there was a confusion with another player called Seaman: based on ENFA, there is only one other player with the surname Seaman, who first appeared in 2017, so that's hardly the case here.

So, to conclude, unless there is extra info that can shadow the credence given to oGol, I think we should trust oGol here (a site which, by the way, has been accurate for English footballers, about English teams stats of the time Seaman played and after), as the fan-based site isn't trustworthy at all.

I finally managed to respond here... by the way, there was also another reason that site isn't reliable, which I now forget...

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 08:52, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

However, I'd like to add that if you think we should reduce his tally by 2, I won't object to that.

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 08:58, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

As I couldn't find something relative online, I guess it's in relation with his data on that site.

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 12:18, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

How sure can we be there weren't any preliminary rounds? Usually there are in cups, and RSSSF doesn't seem to have any, i.e. every season seems to start with a Round 1. Also, how sure can we be there wasn't a League Cup for reserve/B teams or at least another cup for specific regions of England branded as League Cup that season, which was a common practice back then? In addition, if Seaman played that season for some time with the reserve team, it makes sense to have played in more cup matches for both FA and League Cups, with the condition there are different ones for the reserve teams, something that is also enhanced from the fact it's his first season with the team, i.e. he most likely started initially with the reserve team on his first season. Then there is that, while someone can send any numbers (s)he likes in oGol, I don't think they would allow a confirmation of the numbers without a decent document proof, because Seaman's numbers are all confirmed. Furthermore, I don't think someone would be tampering with Seaman's numbers there, as he doesn't need tampering to reach 1,000 or a tampering to be on the top places of lists with at least 1,000 matches and he no way is someone who had/has an immense fanbase like CR7, for whom tampering would make sense, and also important is the fact there are only differences from ENFA in his QPR numbers, i.e. if someone was messing it would make more sense to cheat some here some there, i.e. have made + matches for other teams as well (that usually is a normal abnormal pattern). Finally, there is the trust on oGol, especially on English footballers at the time Seaman played and after, because before it's another story, i.e. for older players (players who played before) in English football (that's only England, not the whole UK, as for the rest countries of UK oGol is lacking in all years) is definitely not a site I would recommend for stats. So no, I don't think we should remove that 1 game, and I am also under the opinion of having the +2 for the FA Cup, which we could, since it's referenced, and logical combined with all other factors previously (and in my previous answer) explained. Nonetheless, we could always do with Seaman the same thing we did for Fábio and Roberto Carlos, which is a solution good enough since it includes the extra matches, and at the same time it doesn't (the + matches solution), do you agree? By the way, if I recall well, the differences (more matches from oGol) are in the first two seasons he played for QPR, because in the next final two seasons the extra matches are in ENFA, so we are talking for 1 more match to those 3 or 2, i.e. he will have 177 or 178 with a note of possibly having 5 or 4 more matches accordingly, and, by the way, being only on the first two seasons is a sign that could have been for the reserve team and also shows that oGol even lacks matches for QPR: in contrast to the rest clubs he played, there is no much decent back-up (as we realized), and even other to those extra matches couldn't be excluded easily, especially if we take into account the reality of the time he played for them. So, bottom line, I have no problem with 177/178 with a note of possibly extra matches (5/4), but I believe more in 182, as it makes much more sense for various reasons and is also referenced, like it is for Fábio and Roberto Carlos (the extra matches they have are also appearing confirmed by oGol).

Best regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 08:22, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

OK... for the 1987–88 season, where he has 4 more matches in oGol than FA; ENFA also has 32 league matches and 3 league matches, they don't have the 1 FMC (Full Members Cup) match and they only have one instead of 4 FA Cup matches that season, the replay against Luton Town, even though QPR seems to have played 4 matches in FA Cup that season. If WP is correct, the FMC match oGol shows him as playing and ENFA doesn't is against Reading, since QPR only played 1 FMC match that season; now 11v11, which is a site feeded by ENFA, has no lineups, but ENFA does, and has Nicky Johns under the posts instead of Seaman, so he couldn't have played there, unless oGol is talking about a corresponding Full Members' Cup for reserve teams, and he is also the goalkeeper who played in those 3 cup matches in that season. So, he didn't play 4 more matches, at least with the A team.

As I think he most likely has played more matches at that period of time, and at the second season for QPR seems to have been credited with matches not played, since they can be attributed to someone else, but his first season works in mysterious ways, I suggest a total of 175 matches and adding a general note that he may have played in more matches based on oGol, like Roberto Carlos, but in his case without specifying a number of how many. Do you agree?

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:24, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

While I don't exclude the fact those matches to refer to other matches, i.e. from other cups, i.e. to be other from those four by Nicky Jones, even though that seems more like a mistake (3 FA Cup + 1 FMC), which is not the same case with his previous season, where there are extra matches QPR didn't play in those tournaments they say, so, giving credence to the number, either are with the reserve team or in other cups with QPR A team but attributed wrongly as FA Cup and League Cup, what Nicky Jones has in his oGol profile is irrelevant because there could be a document attributing all 4 FA Cup matches to him and another used as proof for Seaman (both with mistakes), unless he also has other cup matches attributed wrongly as FA Cup or ones with the reserve team, i.e. in simple words: that he has 4 FA Cup matches that season doesn't mean that Seaman couldn't have the same 4 matches listed on his profile because I don't think there is a single ID for a match (oGol doesn't seem to have that kind of detail), even though they could well mean different matches. And yes, I think ENFA in case of a conflict should be preferred over oGol, when it comes to A teams level comparison, most cups, and only the 4 top leagues of English football because that's what they cover, and, in addition, Nicky Jones was clearly the second choice then (based on the few matches he played then) and having being replaced with the first goalkeeper choice in the replay cup match makes perfectly sense...

Of course, if we find other matches not included in ENFA for Seaman, we could increase his tally for QPR; for instance, he may have played in matches of other cups, like Full Members' Cup (that lasted some years), Screen Sport Super Cup, the Anglo-Italian Cup, et c., and I'm only talking about 80s-mid 90s, because there were even other cups a decade earlier (I know that when looking for Hutchison; famous official cups include the Anglo-Scottish Cup, the Texaco Cup, the Anglo-Italian Cup, and so on).

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 11:39, 8 March 2022 (UTC)