User talk:Ballure

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Hi, there seems to have been some confusion. The original page that I asked to be kept was not set up after Gary's death. It merely stated all Gary's achievements and his results. When it was deleted, I asked for it to be kept but then a new page was created and mentioned Gary's death. I do not want the page to be a tribute, but more just a record of Gary's achievements. All his results in the TT can be verified on the iomtt.com website. I am sorry you feel the need for it to be deleted, a I just want the record of what he had done to be there. I don't particularly want mention of his death, it's a record of achievements that I wanted. For your information, his death was record in the national papers - the Mirror, MCN and BSB, all articles widely on the internet. Please could you reconsider, the original page being restored, with his results on? Also I am not acquainted with any of the editors on Wikipedia. Thank you, Lisa Ballure (talk) 10:08, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Your request for restoration of a deleted article
I proposed deletion of Gary Carswell as it failed to meet basic Wikipedia requirements. To be established, and then remain, Wikipedia requires 'Notability' to be satisfied, by significant coverage in reliable sources - that is, published pieces independent of the subject of the article, and independent of any local organisations. Social media, Youtube, privately-owned self-published websites, blogs, message boards, forums, racing club newsletters, race results, posthumous tributes, internet image sellers, etc, are not significant, nor sufficiently independent or objective. Arguably that would also apply to local-only Manx newspapers, where no national coverage exists. The requirements are covered at WP:GNG and WP:NMOTORSPORT The article was established posthumously, prompted only by news-reports; Wikipedia is not a place for a "tribute" - see WP:NOTMEMORIAL and scroll down to #4. I tried to establish adequate reliable sources (to prove regular and ongoing coverage existed prior to Gary's death) before deletion, but was unable to do so using the internet, likewise now, neither could I find any coverage relating to off-Island racing, which is consistent with amateur status. It's not incumbent on Wikipedia editors to go to extreme lengths to satisfy what the other contributors (who established the article) should have done before uploading the small content; passing mentions, for example in an obscure book, are insufficient. The shortcomings have not been addressed since the restoration, and unless improvements are forthcoming the article will be nominated for deletion, as you have already been advised with the message (click here - "Any additional references such as press coverage would be welcome"). Please also note that anything you write to Wikipedia remains as a permanent record, including any content which you later delete. Gary's stub article (three sentences only) had already been requested for restoration (click here - User talk:Rjd0060/Archive 11), and from what I know of the requesting editor, I will conclude you are acquainted.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 20:46, 2 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Hi, there seems to have been some confusion. The original page that I asked to be kept was not set up after Gary's death. It merely stated all Gary's achievements and his results. When it was deleted, I asked for it to be kept but then a new page was created and mentioned Gary's death. I do not want the page to be a tribute, but more just a record of Gary's achievements. All his results in the TT can be verified on the iomtt.com website. I am sorry you feel the need for it to be deleted, a I just want the record of what he had done to be there. I don't particularly want mention of his death, it's a record of achievements that I wanted. For your information, his death was record in the national papers - the Mirror, MCN and BSB, all articles widely on the internet. Please could you reconsider, the original page being restored, with his results on? Also I am not acquainted with any of the editors on Wikipedia. Thank you, Lisa Ballure (talk) 10:08, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Lisa, I am not aware of any other page, only this one, 14 April. The editor's name contained in this link User talk:Rjd0060/Archive 11, agljones has declared (as part of formal disciplinary proceedings, June-ish 2015) the following: "I have been upset by the death of a friend from school in a racing motor-cycle accident. I was present at the venue at the time but did not witness the accident and was unaware that he had died for nearly 2 hours. My friend from school was very fortunate to survive a near fatal accident on the Isle of Man TT in 2009." Whilst not mentioning Gary by name, it is obvious from the detail including the 2009 crash at Ballacrye. I am a plain editor, the lowest rank, I have no special priveleges. As you correctly state there is a lot on the internet including the inquest report. I have seen Gary's competitor profile on the IoM TT website both last year and this, and I use this site often for on-Wiki and off-Wiki purposes.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 02:30, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi - I am sorry but I do not know who agljones is, although Gary knew a tremendous amount of people but I am not aware of who this is by the username and I have not been in direct contact with agljones. At the end of the day, all I wanted is for Gary to have page that listed all his accomplishments in the TT, all of which can be verified in the iomtt.com website, which you have seen. There was another page, before the one in April which listed the results and it is that one that I wanted restored. Please can you tell me where we stand now, can the page remain or not? I can link external pages if that is what is required but I have never used Wikipedia before and I am unsure how to go about that. Thanks, Lisa Ballure (talk) 12:34, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is extremely complex, especially to a new user, and I need to message the administrator (a high-ranking editor) who restored the article for guidance as I am unsure if it's possible to search for other previous versions of the article. Regarding the editor you do not recognise, I am not allowed to disclose any details other than those which are already in public view at Wikipedia, but if you click on this link File:2013 Isle of Man TT Races Photo 11 IMG 00305.jpg you will see the self-admitted (self-identified) real life given-name in the description and uploader details section.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 20:15, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi - thanks for your help. I would like to get this sorted. Lisa Ballure (talk) 10:46, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
 * No urgency, I wont be nominating it for deletion. Traa-dy-Liooa, as they say in the Island (I learned that from a local in 1980, Signpost Corner I reckon).I also have to inform you that you are in a difficult situation, as a family member, to write on Gary's page as this is a conflict of interest. I regret Wikipedia is so complicated, and that I need to refresh my basic grasp of it, as and when situations occur. agljones is also another conflict of interest editor who has been requested to give a full list of conflicts (two or more) last July-ish but has failed to do so; accordingly this editor has been requested not to contribute to any Isle of Man or TT/MGP type articles, to which he has mostly, but not totally, accorded. This is why I needed to know whether this editor would be assisting you, particularly in view of his statement "I can expand the article and provide notability", made on 11 November 2015.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 15:31, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi, no he won't be assisting me. Can I ask someone else to do the page? Thanks for your help! Ballure (talk) 10:05, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Sure, I can assist - I've done it on a couple of other articles that were marginal or less. I have not had much time as yet, but have mocked-up a few results as shown in the following tables. Is that the sort of thing you had in mind?

Manx Grand Prix race summary

 * BFN.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 00:55, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi yes that's the sort of thing. Thanks for helping. Lisa Ballure (talk) 21:02, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Personal details
OK, it's coming on now - four paragraphs without the results-tables. Could you please confirm the actual date of birth - I've got Gary Lee Stanley Carswell, 1968. Thx.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 21:56, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi yes, it's 29th August 1968. Thanks. Lisa Ballure (talk) 22:40, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

New content added
Gooday Lisa. I have now finished adding the wikitable content of Gary's TT race history. I've consigned the Jurby crash detail to the end to keep it low-profile, and I hope this all now accords with your wishes for the article, and that there are no errors. If you have any images then these could be now added. It used to be that new users had to make (I think) ten edits to mainspace articles before they were allowed to upload images, however I have chanced upon a new user who did not meet this criterion, so may have changed, if you want to give it a go. If you want to proceed it's important that you are aware of Wikipedia policy and agree to it, basically:
 * Wikipedia as a free-for-all encyclopedia requires uploaded images to be freely-available to all for any purpose, including commercial re-use - they can't be restricted to Wikipedia-only
 * Images should have been taken by yourselves, and not been published elsewhere previously
 * Should show Gary only, no other people, unless at a public event and could be cropped-off.

If you have a look at Paul Dobbs, I added the infobox image which is a good example as it shows the (deceased) rider in his natural environment and with a representative motorcycle. It doesn't have to be exactly just that, could be without a bike and with a sheepdog ferinstance, and you could upload two (or more, but the article layout needs to be 'balanced', ie. not swamped. The infobox image is automatically resized, although most are click-through to larger size (Paul Dobbs is restricted final size). I have not been able to locate a freely-available image of Gary, and although there are many action shots, these do not show the man. If you want to have a go at uploading, the form to use is here. This is for Wikimedia Commons, a file repository for Wikipedia. As with everything Wikipedia, it's not simple, so I'll be available to tweak them afterwards and add to the article. The file name(s) from your computer need to be something obvious, like Gary Carswell in 2010, not IMG 56 2010. Leave that with you for a bit. Thanks, Steve. --Rocknrollmancer (talk) 23:04, 16 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Hi - thanks, yes that looks good, thank you for your help. I'll try to upload a suitable photo.  Cheers, Lisa Ballure (talk) 10:25, 19 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Hi - I've uploaded a photo but I'm not sure how I add it into the infobox? Please could you help? Thanks Lisa Ballure (talk) 10:52, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅. That's brill.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 12:30, 19 April 2016 (UTC)