User talk:BanRay/Archive 1

Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)
Hi, seeing you have been involved in previous Afd debates I invite you to contribute to this discussion to clarify certain issues about football player notability. I think clearer guidelines are needed to avoid repeated inappropriate nominations for deletion and time consuming discussions. Cheers! StephP 17:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link, I'll have a look --BanRay 20:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Abdul Razak
I see you have redirected Karim Abdul Razak to Karim Abdoul Razak. I am not clear why. This player has been known by the spelling Abdul all his playing life in Ghana, an English speaking country. Why the change to the French spelling? --Natsubee 00:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Opoku N'ti
I am afraid I have come across another one. Samuel Opoku Nti has not got a hyphen in his name. Nti is a very popular name in Ghana and no one uses it with a hyphen. As with the case above, you have redirected from the correct to the wrong spelling.--Natsubee 03:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've never redicted those pages, I created both, if abdul is the correct spelling of his name and you moved the page there, I don't have any problems with that, although Abdoul Razak must still redirect to Abdul Razak, since many users may misspell the name while looking for the article. (posted a copy on your page) --BanRay 18:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the barnstar
Thank you for giving my my very first barnstar - hopefully won't be my last. I am unsure if I've deserved it - but I will try to edit more and better - that barnstar certainly gave me a lot of motivation.

Now, some wiki-matters as well. I noticed that you've created some very nice templates - namely Estonia-footy-bio-stub and Estonia-footyclub-stub. WIll you mind if I add those to WikiProject Estonia stub templates, here? That way more people will know about those and use them where appropriate - and expand Category:Estonian football biography stubs as well. And if you feel like it, do join WPE yourself as well.

DLX 11:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Sure you can use them mate, that's why I created them in the first place ;) --  Ban Ray   15:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I added them. DLX 17:44, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Your advise is needed here
Hello! I hope you are feeling great. I would like you to view my comments here. Your views on this matter would be much appreciated as well! -- S iva1979 Talk to me 04:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

James Milner Career section
Not really asking for full feedback on this article (although I wouldn’t mind it). I’d just like to know what you feel the best way the divide up the Career section is, by Club, by season, not at all or some other way. Please leave your reply under the section in my talk page named “Milner Career section”. Buc 16:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

We have to agree to disagree (User:Retepretep's articles)
It is not my responsibility to do the homework of the author. Put it this way: If this was a hard copy encyclopedia and an author came to their editor and said here is an article on x, y and z soccer player and they submitted copy like what has been submitted for the players in question, the editor would try hard not to laugh in their faces while they give the article back to them and tell them to rewrite the article. Wiki should have the same standards. And as I said in the AfD, if they only have time to write a stub, then make the best use of that short time. It would only take an extra one or two sentences to say they are the starting player in their position, they are the leading scorer on the team, or some such thing. And yes I know how to do it but as I said before about the hard copy version: the editor doesn't (nor should they) do the research for the author. The author does the research and if necessary, the editor verifies. Perhaps if the author shared his knowledge of the player in the article, I wouldn't have found it necessary to ask for it's deletion. And I don't mind stub articles as long as the stub indicates notability. If and when the articles in question indicate notability above and beyond association, I will withdraw my request for deletion. Postcard Cathy 13:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but it is your responsibility to check whether content meets set requirements or not, before nominating an article for deletion. If it's too difficult for you, don't bother doing it at all.


 * Also, the rules clearly state that a player doesn't have to be a "leading scorer" on the team to be considered "notable". Even several appearances for a pro team make you "notable". Rules are rules. As a person who isn't all that interested in this subject you may find it unfair, but I will have to disagree again. Why would I want to read articles about, let's say, Zinedine Zidane, Ronaldinho or Ronaldo, when I already know everything I want to know about them. It's the "smaller" articles I'm interested in. People spend hours, collecting information over the internet, using search engines and tranlators. It might look useless to you or anyone who isn't interested in the subject, but priceless to numerous football fans.


 * As for the nominations, you don't have to withdraw them, those articles won't get deleted anyway.--  Ban Ray   14:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Names of Torpedo Moscow Players
You changed their spelling recently. Initially there was used spelling from official club's website. Please be so kind to point your source here or on the article's discussion page. Or I will have to change them back. RamBow 13:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Out of those four players, only Panov has ever played abroad, so no official source can exist by definition and it all boils down to a method of transliteration and I just picked the most common one. Torpedo;s official website is not an official source, when it comes to transliterating players' personal names, especially seeing as they've even somehow managed to misspell Voskoboinikov's name and it didn't even require transliteration from cyrillic, since he comes from Estonia. --  Ban Ray   22:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I suppose the most official source of someone's name spelling is his/her passport. Each country can have its own rules for transliteration of Non-Roman Scripts. I assume Torpedo website simply uses Russian rules. So I did not object about Voskoboinikov - I am sure you know it better as Estonian resident. Romaschenko has two different passports - Russian and Belarusian - perhaps even two different spellings of his name exist at the same time. As for russian players I can not agree with you, sorry. Russian transliteration rules you can find in "Инструкция о порядке оформления и выдачи паспортов гражданам Российской Федерации для выезда из Российской Федерации и въезда в Российскую Федерацию" (утверждена приказом МВД России №310 от 26 мая 1997г.) (Instruction of the Ministry of Internal Affairs about order of issuing of passports of Russian citizens for traveling abroad)  chapter "Правила заполнения бланков паспортов с символикой Российской Федерации" (Rules of filling forms of passports with symbolism of Russian Federation). For instance it has sample of such name spelling as МАКСИМ - MAXIM. Indeed I didn't see passports all of these players and perhaps some of them have different spelling but I am sure most of them are issued with these rules and Torpedo's site is not far from truth. So I believe it would be better use Russian transliteration rules for Russian players' names at least. RamBow 09:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If that's what the rules say, fair enough --  Ban Ray   18:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Barnstar
No, that's great. Thanks very much! Obviously I do my work for the love of football and the desire to better Wikipedia, but it's a great feeling to realise that people are taking note of your work and that it is appreciated. Before this, I always felt like a bit of a quiet outsider in the editing world. Thanks again! Falastur2 (talk) 17:17, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You totally deserve it!!! Ban  Ray  17:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Euro footballer
Hi, thanks for the heads-up. I supported the move to Ballon d'Or when I posted two weeks ago, and I sitll do, so I was happy to add my formal support. Cheers, Nach0king (talk) 14:50, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
 * No problem, thanks for the quick reply Ban  Ray  14:54, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Indrek Siska
Well...I was going to write about all players of JK Kalev Tallinn. I am a member of WikiProject Football. I didn't know JK Kalev Tallinn isn't a profi club. Could you tell me which Estonian clubs are profi and which aren't ? Cheers Bartekos (talk) 11:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure, the pro clubs are: Flora Tallinn, Levadia Tallinn, TVMK Tallinn, Trans Narva and also Maag Tammeka Tartu has been a pro team for a few years now, but I would really suggest you not to write about every single player, unless he is either a key player at his club or has represented his national team, since Meistriliiga isn't a fully pro league and players aren't "granted" notability by default. If you're interested in writing about Estonian players, then the Meistriliiga players who might deserve an article and still don't have one are: Siksten Kasimir (Maag Tammeka Tartu), Aleksander Saharov, Mati Lember and Märt Kosemets (all Tulevik Viljandi), Gert Olesk (Vaprus Pärnu), Janek Meet and Dmitri Kulikov (both FC Kuressaare). Those are probably the only ones passing the WP:BIO notability criteria. Thanks for the quick reply. Ban  Ray  12:18, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

JK Maag Tammeka Tartu
JK Maag Tammeka Tartu is semi-professional football club. User:Walericaz 12:39, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * yeah, formally, but their first team players are professionals. Ban  Ray  12:52, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

OK. User:Walericaz 13:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Estonia under-21 national football team
...this article in my opinion is missing. I think even short article would be enough. However I don't know current squad of this team. I would like to notice that would give a big argument against those people who look at notability of player. I guess much more players from such a chlubs like JK Kalev Tallinn could be shown to the world Bartekos (talk) 12:55, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll provide you with the list of players if you create the article. As for kalev, I disagree. I personally know a lot of players from the Estonian league and a few of my very good friends play for both Levadia and Flora and, believe me, the gap between pros and the rest is rather big. There are so many players, who fall within the WP:BIO requirements and don't yet have an article that there's really no need to broaden the scope of natability criteria. Ban  Ray  13:11, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I mean they will participate in highest level of football . It passes to notability(sport) . Oh..and one more thing Mart Kosemets played for Estonia national football team in years 2000-2004 according to www.national-football-teams.com. But you are from Estonia so you know better. I would be glad to receive the list from you. Greetings from PolandBartekos (talk) 13:22, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Walericaz said he made his debut in 2004, not me and I've had a few doubts over that too to be honest, I'll try to check. Also, could you please add all the neccessary categories to the u-21 page. Check all the formatting thing here. I'm currently waiting for a very important business call, so I'm a bit busy, I'll send you the list later today. Cheers! (PS playing at the highest level within a country is not in itself notable, more info here:WP:BIO) Ban  Ray  13:31, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for Special Barnstar :-). I'm going to write a couple more articles connected with Estonian football. Cheers ! Bartekos (talk) 11:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Ру-вики
Приветствую. В качестве предложения: может Вам завести учетную запись в русской википедии для общения там? будет гораздо проще Вас читать. --Munroe ru (talk) 19:49, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Спасибо за предложение, я обязательно подумаю ;) Ban  Ray  21:50, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Eduard Ellman-Eelma
Hi ! I am trying to make a good article about him. I think he deserves for the place in the wikipedia. It's hard to find a football player for Estonia who participated in big football competitions.He was !. However I found only information about his international career. I still don't know anything about his death. I guess he was killed by Nazis. Do you have any information about his domestic career ? Sorry I tried to find something in English or Polish, but it's all what I could do. Maybe there is a Estonian website somewhere in the virtual world. Unfortunately I don't know Estonian language at all...Have a nice day Bartekos (talk) 21:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately I can't find any useful information on him, neither in English nor in Estonian. The only articles that mention him are the ones that mention his goal scoring record. Sorry. Ban  Ray  22:27, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It's ok. If I find time, I will write an email to your football federation . Maybe they will be know something . Bartekos (talk) 22:35, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Also ask them to get a proper website when you do ;) Ban  Ray  22:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Torpedo-ZIL and Torpedo-Metallurg
There is a problem with merging these two articles. In 2003, Torpedo-ZIL's successor Torpedo-Metallurg played in the Premier League. In the same 2003, another team considered as a revived Torpedo-ZIL, not as a separate team, played in the Third Division. The next year, this team was renamed to SC Torpedo. In March 2005, another team, a child of both ZIL and Rossiyskaya Gazeta, Torpedo-RG was founded on the base of SC Torpedo. I propose to merge "Premier League" Torpedo-ZIL (1997-beinning of 2003) with "Third League" Torpedo-ZIL (the rest of 2003) and SC Torpedo (2004) (a common practice, for example, everybody (and Dynamo themselfs) consider FC Dynamo Saint Peterburg (now in the Second Division) as a revived Dynamo, despite the fact it is only a renamed Petrotrest) and keep Torpedo-Metallurg, Torpedo-RG and FC Moscow apart.  Jhony  |   Talk   12:36, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I was just going to leave you a comment Jhony. The thing is that Torpedo-Metallurg was basically the same club as Torped-ZIL. I believe there's really no need to confuse people further by creating a separate article, so let's just incorporate all the stuff into the Torpedo-ZIL article, although the name change by the new owners already seems to be mentioned. Looks just perfect to me as it is. Ban  Ray  12:39, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S. Haven't yet read the second part of your comment.
 * Right...the whole thing is extremely complicated, reminds of the TVMK-Tevalte-Nikol-Lantana case in Estonia. I think we can merge the Torpedo-ZIL and Torpedo-RG articles, but in that case I believe we should also keep the Torpedo-Metallurg article there, because no way Met. was a separate club that existed for only one season. I mean, they even used the same logos. Also, if we decide to merge the articles, we will have to use the Torpedo-RG name, since it's the current official name of the club. Thoughts? Ban  Ray  12:53, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, the logo looks very similar. I thought there are more differences between Tor-ZIL and Tor-Met. I agree, Tor-Met should be merged into the Torpedo-ZIL article. In case of Tor-RG I wonder why Torpedo-ZIL was renamed to SC Torpedo in 2004 and what changed in 2005, because in 2003 ZIL general director Laptev said Torpedo-ZIL would play in the Third Division without a goal of promotion.  It's hard to make situation clear without comments about Torpedo-RG from ZIL representatives. I'll search for more information.    Jhony   |   Talk   13:56, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Added the logo, I also changed the background color to yellow as on the club's kits (photo). I'm relly not sure what to do with the Torpedo-RG article. The problem is that if we decide to merge the two articles, we'll have to do it under the Torpedo-RG name, since that's the club's current name, so I'd suggest keeping it as it is. Ban  Ray  14:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I found a postmatch interview of Torpedo-RG head coach, where he said that ZIL keep themselfs away from the team. Therefore it seems that Torpedo-RG should have separate article.   Jhony   |   Talk   15:27, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, seems like RG is a different club, so let's just keep it the way it is. Ban  Ray  16:39, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that the logo of Torpedo-Metallurg (Image:Torpedo-Metallurg.png) has a yellow background but shouldn't it have white, like this: ? Take a look at google images:.  Jhony  |   Talk   15:47, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * As I've already said, the one they used on their kits had yellow background, see the photo I posted above. And, to be honest, I can't recall them using the white one at all.  Ban  Ray  16:14, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I searched for using of Torpedo-Metallurg logo and found this white background logo on Saturn website and this white background logo on kits.   Jhony   |   Talk   17:12, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * no problem, gonna fix that, cheers. Ban  Ray  17:14, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the barnstar!!!!!!!!! :))   Jhony   |   Talk   00:40, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
 * No problem, you deserve it! Ban  Ray  10:14, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

New Year
Well thank you very much, and a happy 2008 to you too. I tried to find a picture of the Tallinn celebrations for you, but was unable to find anything which looked recognisable, so I hope you don't mind the lack of picture in return. Falastur2 (talk) 15:19, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Haha, no problem, thanks mate Ban  Ray  15:30, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

С наступившим новым годом! :)   Jhony   |   Talk   09:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Спасибо Jhony! Ban  Ray  11:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

aek fc

 * Ayo man...could you delete the double redirect on the AEK fc page please...???The-real-zeus (talk) 20:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, done! Ban  Ray  20:53, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Argentine football
I am not trying to have an edit war with you. I believe that the articles all meet the criteria for high importance status, namely "Teams with international notability. Top-level leagues, awards and competitions. Top-rated world-class players and managers". I don't mean to be disrespectful but changing Club Atlético Independiente to mid importance shows a lack of understanding of football in South America. Independiente are not only the most successful team in South Americas premier club competition (7 times Copa Libertadores champions) they are also the third most successful team in world football in terms of professional FIFA recognised international tournaments and are the 3rd most successful team in the Argentine league with 16 league championships.

As for the other teams, I have attempted to explain my reasons for reverting them to high importance in the edit summaries and on the talk page, basically that they are all winners of continental/world titles and multiple winners of the Argentine league championship. If you disagree with what I've done then feel free to raise the issue at WikiProject Argentine football or elsewhere. Regards, King of the  North  East  20:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I've always thought that the "High importance" category was reserved for the so called giant clubs, hence using Real Madrid as an example on the grading scheme. It's not all that important anyway, so I'll leave it up to you, although I'll have to go through some european clubs and reassess the just for them sake of "balance" then. Ban  Ray  22:31, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I've replaced Real Madrid with Ajax on the grading scheme template. Ban  Ray  23:04, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Red Star
Just a note, this is verging on WP:CANVASsing; you might have been alright if you also invited the people who had opposed the move to comment again too, but asking only a person who supported it is not on. пﮟოьεԻ  5  7  12:16, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I just thought he was making a good point, ah, so many rules, wasn't aware of that, sorry. I'll invite all the previous participants then. Ban  Ray  12:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, no worries. Also, there appears to be a problem with your userpage - the right hand column is only at the correct width when you "show" the hidden templates; if you don't, then the non-hidden ones are cut off (for instance, I only see "This user comes from " instead of "This user comes from Estonia". пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  12:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * hmm, it works fine with opera and Firefox, but when I open it with IE I get the same problem, weird. I'll try to fix it, thanks Ban  Ray  12:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Krylya/Krylia
Perhaps you want to add FC Krylya Sovetov-SOK to the nomination? пﮟოьεԻ  5  7  13:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good idea. Separate RM or should I just add it there somehow? Ban  Ray  14:02, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it should be ok adding it to the existing one. Are the two clubs related?  пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  19:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't think so, the word Krylia means Wings in Russian, I think it's one of those traditional names for sporting societies like Spartak or Dynamo, although less common. Ban  Ray  19:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, cool. I remember that there was a discussion on a message board which I read regarding the name Krylia - someone suggested it may have been the team of the Soviet Air Force or an aircraft manufacturer, though I have no idea if this is the case. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  19:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * According to their website the club is indeed related to the aviation trade union, I never knew that. Explains the name choice. Ban  Ray  20:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I mean it was related Ban  Ray  20:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No, they aren't related.   Jhony   |   Talk   15:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Dprk-footy-bio-stub
Hi - a stub template or category which you created has been nominated for deletion or renaming at Stub types for deletion. The stub type, which was not proposed at WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals, does not meet the standard requirements for a stub type, either through being incorrectly named, ambiguously scoped, or through failure to meet standards relating to the current stub hierarchy or likely size, as explained at Stub. Please feel free to make any comments at WP:SFD regarding this stub type, and in future, please consider proposing new stub types first! Grutness...wha?  00:56, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for informing me Grutness, I'll throw in my opinion shortly! Ban  Ray  01:15, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

hello
i know this will sound rather stupid, but your signature is unique and cool. :) &Lambda;ua&int;  Wi  se  (talk) 18:59, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * haha, thanks mate, glad you like it ;) Ban  Ray  19:03, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Commonwealth of Independent States Cup
Hello.

First, thank you about contributing to the article.

And second, i think it's not the best to enter the article in the Estonia and Ukraine WikiProject. For example, the UEFA Cup is not entered in the scope of the WikiProject of every countrey that participated in it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.66.160.171 (talk) 05:40, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. Exelent work in fixing the tables thing!
 * You're probably right about wikiprojects, as for the tables, they are still a bit messed up, especially when you open them with different browsers, I'll try to get someone to look into it Ban  Ray  10:39, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, two awards for two days, congratulations!  Jhony  |   Talk   12:25, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks mate ;) Ban  Ray  12:27, 8 January 2008 (UTC)