User talk:Basement12/Format for Nations at the Summer Olympics Articles


 * The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this page.

This page is temporarily here until conventions are established for the format and it can completed and moved to the WikiProject Olympics namespace.

Looks good
This is looking good.. I'm going to set myself the task of templating the whole thing, as well as templating subtables, so we can really get a nice clean uniform look across the 200+ nation pages that will be coming in 2012. Prince of Canadat 16:34, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Men's / Women's headings
Obviously seperate tables for men's and women's results are a good idea to but do they need sperate headers or simply Men and Women above the tables. I'm worried that the tables of contents, e.g. at Romania at the 2008 Summer Olympics, are somewhat out of control. Basement12 (T.C) 18:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Qualification articles
Do we really want to include the per-sport qualification articles in the main hatnote under each sport's section? I would say those articles are subpages of the single "main" Sport at the year Olympics articles, and a link to that summary article is wholly sufficient. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 21:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think they're essential but equally they don't do any harm. In particular for a sport like football where someone may well be interested in how an Under-23 side qualifys (a lot of countries only usually have U21 or U20). Basement12 (T.C) 21:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Formatted example page
What we're going to need to do is apply all these standard formats to a single article and then link to it. I'm going to suggest United States at the 2008 Summer Olympics to begin with as it includes most (all?) sports and is closer to what we want than China at the 2008 Summer Olympics. - Basement12 (T.C) 21:59, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Good idea. I've made a start with GBR (mainly just removing bgcolors), but think an article containing all sports formatted up to the required standard would be good for something to follow. Perhaps if we could also work on an article containing an average number of sports/competitors, and also one for just a small handful - this will show how the formatting can be adjusted appropriately for nations of varying sizes. Random example: CRO (mid) and BAH (low). Yboy83 (talk) 12:33, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep sounds good. I'd say Philippines for the small artcicle though, its got nice bits of well referenced, summary prose and was the article that initially brought up mergeing tables. Basement12 (T.C) 14:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Questions
I have a few questions that arose while I was editing this guideline draft:

Opposition Result

 * Is it really necessary to add that extra row with " Opposition Result "? Besides repeating itself throughout the table, for every round, I think it becomes obvious that the cell(s) just below contain an opponent's name and the score for that round.
 * For an opponent's name, should one only give the last name (using pipe)? I think it avoids table width problems, for competitions with a large number of rounds (e.g. badminton, judo)

I'll keep adding further questions here, when necessary. Parutakupiu (talk) 00:19, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Good points. Only last name makes sense to keep the width down, particularly as it should link to the opponents article, so can't see a problem with that. As for " Opposition Result " it might be usefulfor making things clearer in (e.g. track cycling) where the format is mixed. Other than that centering it in a one box heading stretching across all rows would probably suffice as it still remains clear.

It would require the rank column to be seperate from the final as well which would also make any medal icons stand out better Basement12 (T.C) 00:33, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * That colspanned cell doesn't look too nice, because it cuts the column limits from the headers to the cells below. I think it's better if we leave as is or search for another solution. Parutakupiu (talk) 00:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * True Basement12 (T.C) 01:12, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * What I dislike the most is how that fairly obvious sub-header takes up so much space. Any ideas on how to make it smaller? Parutakupiu (talk) 10:53, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Not sure why there was a line break after introducing colspan for the cells - it's making it wider so there's no need for the break. Without it it looks okay, but still suffers from Parutakupiu's point:


 * I tried switching Opposition Score to the top row but it made it look rather odd, really.:Thoughts? AllynJ (talk | contribs) 12:10, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * How about;

Its still not ideal i know but it draws less attention to the repeated " Opposition Result ". Basement12 (T.C) 12:27, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Love it, Basement! A good compromise solution (but will it work in all browsers?). Parutakupiu (talk) 13:30, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No, just tried it in IE and it doesn't work. I'll find out how else to make the text smaller. Basement12 (T.C) 13:44, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This leaves more whitespace but does work in all browsers i have;

Can't think of/find any better way at the moment. Basement12 (T.C) 13:51, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Which combines the two previous styles and seems to work. We'd have to point out that the and undefined notation is only for the heading, results wouldn't need to be in that style. Basement12 (T.C) 13:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Or;


 * How about this way? I've defined a more reduced line height. Does it render well in IE? Parutakupiu (talk) 14:20, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * {|class=wikitable style="font-size:90%"

!rowspan="2"|Athlete !rowspan="2"|Event !Round of 64 !Round of 32 !Round of 16 !Quarterfinals !Semifinals !Final !rowspan=2|Rank !style="line-height:1em"| Opposition Score !style="line-height:1em"| Opposition Score !style="line-height:1em"| Opposition Score !style="line-height:1em"| Opposition Score !style="line-height:1em"| Opposition Score !style="line-height:1em"| Opposition Score
 * }


 * Yep that seems fine in both firefox and IE. Could you give it a mention on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Olympics just so everyone's aware of the proposed change, but can't see why it won't be accepted. Basement12 (T.C) 14:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Table colours
Was there any consensus about the background colors used in the group results table for team sports to highlight qualifier and non-qualifier teams? The example table has a green (#98fb98) and pink (#ffcccc) shades. Are these fine or are there any voices against? How about using #ccffcc for the green? It's in the same color scale as the pink. Parutakupiu (talk) 12:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally, I don't like the current team colours. Definitely agree with switching green to #ccffcc, but I don't see why we need a pink to indicate a team being knocked out when, by default of them not being highlighted in green, people release they aren't progressing. Just having this would be fine, in my opinion:


 * Thoughts? AllynJ (talk | contribs) 12:10, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The Pink colour isn't essential, but a range of colours indicating advancing to 5th/6th, 7th/8th, etc. playoffs might be for some sports. Basement12 (T.C) 12:27, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

As for AllynJ's reply: yes, I thought that too, but Basement's comment is pertinent, too. We should see where such play-off situations occur and try to reach a consensus. Parutakupiu (talk) 13:30, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

A current example example of the tables would be water polo (took this from Germany);

I think thats the most complicated qualifying system, though hockey has similar classification rounds. Basement12 (T.C) 13:44, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I've always disliked those colours, but by far the least offensive style to my eyes is that pale green for teams that advance and no other colour for teams that don't (or just go to classification matches). — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Another note that needs to be made is to use the  character (&minus;) for goal/point differentials in those tables, and not a hyphen or en-dash.  — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

So... do we keep the two background colors or leave only the green? If the latter, we keep this shade or change it to ? And what can we decide for those sports where teams get qualified for different rounds? Parutakupiu (talk) 23:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * If we're going to limit colour everywhere else lets do the same here. The #ccffcc green for qualifying teams and nothing for anyone else. Basement12 (T.C) 18:31, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Except the above example of volleyball where the top team went to the SFs and the others to the QFs? Maybe colour the top team in this example the same bluewe use for the host nation in medals tables (ccccff)? Basement12 (T.C) 18:35, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Nations at the Summer Paralympics articles
I presume the format being developed here will also be used on the Nations at the Summer Paralympics articles, in which case could we get team tables for Goalball and Wheelchair rugby prepared. The other team sports should be fine with the current tables being prepared. As far as I can tell, most of the other sports should be able to use the single elimiation or against field tables already developed, with the addition of a classification/category column where necessary. Yboy83 (talk) 16:32, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Good point. It would be nice to have all guidelines in place before the paralympics start so that less clen up would be required afterwards. Perhaps some kind of template linking to the guidelines could be made to place on the talk pages?. Basement12 (T.C) 16:40, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Links to team sport articles
We ought to mention that there are a full set of templates that should be used to linking to national teams for the team sports. The  version is for use within the match templates so that the flags are "inside" the team names. I'm still working on the team stats right now, but if somebody could write this up appropriately, it would be a big help. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * bk and bk-rt for men's basketball
 * bkw and bkw-rt for women's basketball
 * bb baseball
 * fh and fh-rt for men's field hockey
 * fhw and fhw-rt for women's field hockey
 * fb and fb-rt for men's football
 * fbw and fbw-rt for women's football
 * hb and hb-rt for men's handball
 * hbw and hbw-rt for women's handball
 * sbw softball
 * vb and vb-rt for men's volleyball
 * vbw and vbw-rt for women's volleyball
 * wp and wp-rt for men's water polo
 * wpw and wpw-rt for women's water polo
 * I've written up a small section on the above templates, and given a couple of examples. Decided it was best to locate it at the op of the "Team sports" section. Basement12 (T.C) 21:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't like 2 things.
I think they're really bad:

- no background for Did not advance --> this is wrong because this just doesn't let u look in 1ms if anyone got to the final or not. this measure is REALLY BAD, honeydew was good.

- no background colors for medalist -> it was really good because it was lot more clever than just a white background.

In my honest opinion, those 2 measures destroys what the other all wins. 81.184.38.161 (talk) 22:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * We're not trying to be "clever", we want this articles to be clear. Per Colours, we can't use colours alone as an indication, and we can't use colour combinations with poor contrast.  Using vibrant colors like gold, silver, or #cc9966 (bronze) over large swaths of text is problematic for that reason, so we limit the usage of those colors to short table headers (e.g. as a bgcolor for just the words "Gold", "Silver" and "Bronze" themselves) and to rank numbers (i.e. "1", "2", and "3", especially with the icon images). — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:27, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

bad changes
every table with white colors, i've to say it, sorry. THIS SUCKS, you're destroying the articles.

By the way, on Spain you take out the bastektball silver winners and put a link to the team. What will happen when the actual team changes? this link will link to the NEW ones not to the winners, so no names here. I'm reverting the change. 81.184.38.161 (talk) 00:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The team roster is already listed later in the article and on a seperate event page. The table at the top is too messy with all names listed.Basement12 (T.C) 00:21, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You know, I have to disagree with this. I have always felt that a competitor in a team sport is just as worthy as a competitor in an individual sport, so the "Medalists" table really ought to list the names of every single competitor who won a medal, regardless of event.  On pages like Peru at the Olympics, I put the full list of names in the table with a 90% font size, and it doesn't look bad.  The problem is when you put a line break after every name, to get a very long vertical table.  This style was only recently added, and only because of that stupid "medals by day" table which was placed to the right of the list of medalists.  That has now morphed into a "Medals by sport" table on some articles, but that is still a poor layout decision.  If those tables are deleted or moved, then the list of medalists can be full width, and the "Name" column can expand as necessary.  The trick is that the other columns need to have fixed widths (using em spacing, not pixel spacing or percentages!!) and let the name column expand to the screen size.  — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * How about squads of 23 footballers. Without the breaks it would just be a mass of indistinguishable wikilinks (or just as bad without links), with them the list is stupidly long and there is a mass of empty space in the other boxes. I don't like having to do it, I always feel if one of the squad ever read the page they'd be disapointed not to be listed :(, but its the only way that makes sense. Basement12 (T.C) 00:40, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a single link to the apropriate roster page would be a better change? e.g Spain Olympic basketball team? Basement12 (T.C) 00:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * As the anon. user put it above, What will happen when the actual team changes? this link will link to the NEW ones not to the winners, so no names here. What she/he means is that those national team pages typically only list the current roster, not all past medal winning rosters.  I understand your point about the long list of names; maybe the solution is a table within the table, so that you could have three columns of names or something.  I think we need a more elegant solution to these lists of names in other places, too.  Take a look at Field hockey at the 1956 Summer Olympics for one idea I had a few months ago.  Perhaps there are some ideas to be taken from that. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 02:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Andrwsc got the point. 81.184.71.22 (talk) 02:21, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you've all misunderstood that last link. It was to the Basketball at the 2008 Summer Olympics - Men's team rosters page, this will remain a constant record of the team members in the 2008 olympics. I've changed it slightly for clarity. Two or three columns may work but the text may need to be very small. Basement12 (T.C) 02:24, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * By the way, the spanish handball team roster does not work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handball_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics_-_Men%27s_team_rosters#.C2.A0Spain .81.184.71.22 (talk) 02:22, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yet. Just needs someone to fill out the details. Basement12 (T.C) 02:25, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm now in the process of filling out the Spanish team. Basement12 (T.C) 02:35, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay thank you :). 81.184.71.22 (talk) 03:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I've created a new template to put a multi-column table inside a table cell. See my changes to Spain at the 2008 Summer Olympics. The basketball, handball, and field hockey rosters are placed into two columns, so the length of those rows is no worse than a nine-name list (like the synchro swimming team). If we get rid of the "Medals by sport" table to the right, then there would be room for three columns of names, making the team rosters even more compact vertically. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 06:41, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That looks good. Have to say though I do quite like the "medals by sport table", though only for countries with a decent number of medals, the're a far better way of finding that info than having to count from the medallists tables. I think we could just have two columns even for football. Does anyone know by the way if the manager/coach recieves a medal for football as they normally recieve winners medals for other competitons? Basement12 (T.C) 12:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Turns out football squads are only 18 players (not 20+ like i assummed) so 2 columns should be fine. I've put one of your new templates in at Argentina and it looks good. I'd say this could now be written into the guidelines. Great work on your part yet again Andrwsc. Basement12 (T.C) 14:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! The managers and coaches do not get Olympic medals, athletes only. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 15:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Didn't think they would. Seems a bit unfair though considering the amount of input they have in the team sports (substitutions etc). Basement12 (T.C) 16:46, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Recruiting
I've started leaving a few messages on the talk pages of editors who've worked on one or two specific articles in Category:Nations at the 2008 Summer Olympics making them aware of these guidelines. Hopefully some of them will be willing to work on "their" articles to get them into the style we're looking for. Basement12 (T.C) 15:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Nabvox and categories sections
I've added sections concerning the use of the "NOCinYearSummerOlympics" navbox template, as well as which categories these type of articles must fall into. Wht do you think? Parutakupiu (talk) 00:28, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well thought of, everything there makes sense. It hadn't even occured to me to put that in. Basement12 (T.C) 00:45, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Move to Wikipedia namespace
I don't think we're too far away from completing the guidelines so its probably time to start thinking about the move. Any suggestions for the exact title it should be moved to? Once moved and complete I think the page should probably be protected in some way as well. Thoughts/suggestions on this or other things thatt need to be included? Basement12 (T.C) 21:10, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this page.

Handball
I updated the handball outline in WikiProject Olympics/Manual of Style (Games summary – Nations) to match the new Template:handballbox. Thought I'd drop you a message, its included in you page, and needs update ;o) lil2mas (talk) 00:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)