User talk:Ben MacDui/Archive 9

April Fool's DYK for Land of Green Ginger
Gatoclass (talk) 16:13, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

St Kilda
Hey, MacDui First of all I'd like to tell you how I liked your article on St Kilda - I recently translated it to German as a whole. Now we have somebody on the German talk page doubting St Kilda's (let alone Rockall's) being part of the Outer Hebrides as you state it in the article. Maybe you could tell him here where you took that information from? English should be fine. Thanks a lot--Zenit (talk) 15:40, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * MacDui's on a wikibreak, so I took the liberty of providing a link and showing how much my German has declined lately. ;-) Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 16:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Many thanks. Ben   Mac  Dui  15:53, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry to hear about your Wikibreak. The box up there isn't screaming "look at me!" too loudly ;-) However, I'm currently having the translated article reviewed, and I'm sure questions will pop up to the article's content, as usual, not only language-wise or so. So I will have to bother you every now and then in the near future, I hope you will we able to answer in time (but don't feel pressed).--Zenit (talk) 13:42, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I already got the first questions:
 * 1) "It has been known for some time that St Kilda was continuously inhabited for two millennia or more, from the Bronze Age to the 20th century. Recently, the first direct evidence of earlier Neolithic settlement emerged ... " - Could you please specify both the "for some time" and the "Recently"?
 * Recently is Fleming in 2005. For the former, I'd say since the early 70s.


 * 1) "Talk of an evacuation occurred in 1875 during MacKay's period of tenure" - Talk occurred; by whom?
 * By the islanders.


 * 1) Who (agency etc) was evacuating the people of St Kilda finally?Are there any hints as to a possibly pressure by the government on the inhabitants?
 * The UK Government via the Secretary of State for Scotland. "Pressure", I think not. The situation was embarrassing for the Government but the strategy appears to have been one of neglect rather than direct pressure.

Thanks and Cheers--Zenit (talk) 14:01, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You are welcome. Ben   Mac  Dui  19:13, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Plus:
 * 1) "With help from the Gaelic School Society, MacKenzie and his wife introduced formal education to Hirta, beginning a daily school to teach reading, writing and arithmetic and a Sunday school for religious education." vs "By the turn of the 20th century, formal schooling had become a feature of the islands" - What's the difference, and if there is none, why would you repeat yourself?--Zenit (talk) 08:48, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Now clarified in the article. Ben   Mac  Dui  20:56, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Great, thanks a lot. Will have a closer look as soon as I am back home (from Scotland, by the way ;-))--Zenit (talk) 20:48, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Featured lists
As you have probably the most experience of getting articles up to Featured list status, can I ask you to cast your eyes over Scottish inventions and discoveries? Once it survives its most recent AFD, it is imperative that it is totally rewritten from scratch. It is clear that this topic will come under constant attack until it is of such a high quality that attacks will be like water off a duck's back.

It is a tremendous shame that the notability/citation criteria for Scotland-related articles is set a a different (higher) level than normal. But this is both a curse and an opportunity. There are tons and tons of excellent ext refs for Scottish inventions and Scottish discoveries. We need to use them.

I would be grateful if you could help identify a good table template (nicked from another Featured list?) for us to copy, where ext refs are "baked in" to the table, eg. as in:


 * List of doping cases in sport

Yours, --Mais oui! (talk) 09:28, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The doping cases list is fine, but note that there is often a call for sortable tables e.g. Manager of the Year Award. Timeline of prehistoric Scotland has both sorting and baking. Ben   Mac  Dui  18:27, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I need your help~!
endulge my trespassing on your time. I'm a university student at Seoul National University, and I'm currently working on a research project on Wikipedia. My focus is on dispute resolution and the Wikipedian culture- subjects that needs real understanding rather than statistics or observation of explicit things. Therefore, I'm eagerly searching for live voices, for accounts of active users.

I see you are an administrator who has been active in Wikipedia for many years, so I thought your experience and opinions would add a lot to my research. Would you by any chance care for an email interview? If you have the time, please send a reply and I'll mail you the questions. Again, your help would mean more than a lot to me.

Thanks for reading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.126.178.124 (talk) 15:49, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Four award
Many thanks. Ben  Mac  Dui  19:58, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Contest proposal
A proposal has been posted for a contest between all 200 country WikiProjects. We need to know how this contest should be run, and what problems to look out for. And we're looking for judges, coordinators, ideas, and feedback.

(And we have some really cool awards for the contest).

The Transhumanist 19:01, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Re:Lord of Islay
I think this article may be merged, some day. It'd be merged, I think, into a list type article, in the manner of User:Deacon_of_Pndapetzim/List_of_Kings_and_Lords_of_the_Isles, which I will one day complete. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 06:26, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. Ben  Mac  Dui  19:59, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * BTW, the good developments in Knapdale have rendered one of your FAs out of date ... Fauna_of_Scotland.. :) Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 06:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, and yes it's a "to do". An advantage of history is that it presumably doesn't go "out-of-date" all that often. As you can see from my tally I have been very pre-occupied of late, but hope to make a start on some tidying up soon. Ben   Mac  Dui  17:31, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Sgurr na Ciste Duibhe‎
Hiya, could you have a shufty at that page? Someone moved it and while his grammatical point may be correct in most circumstances in modern Gaelic, I think most of these page names currently are set to reflect the OS names. See also my point on the talk page. Akerbeltz (talk) 08:50, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Welcome back
Glad to see you showing up in my watchlist again, hope the break was refreshing and welcome back, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 20:09, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

You are most kind. Not so much a "break" as a very busy period offline, but I'm hoping to re-start slowly and catch up on my watchlists. Happy to be of assistance if needed. Ben  Mac  Dui  07:50, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Hoy
Hi Ben! I hadn't spotted the earlier edits on the Hoy page you had reverted by 194.159.125.240, when I corrected the captalisation and placed the tag after the statement. However I just took a look at the users talkpage and noted I have previously given him/her a final warning for vandalising the article after you reverted his edits on 17 March 2009. I have also reverted his/her other two edits today on the Orkney article. Richard Harvey (talk) 20:34, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for dealing with this. I had quick look last night but didn't get time to sort it out as the edit seemed to be a mixture of inaccuracy and possibly genuine local knowledge. There are only 20 inhabited islands to the best of my knowledge - see List of Orkney islands. Including the gaelic name is hardly compulsory, but there is no obvious reason to remove it- save that the template does not explain what it is! The name issue is trickier. I actually agree that the two last names are "incorrect" - "Orkneys" certainly is, and whilst "Orkney islands" (lowercase i) is OK, I am not at all sure about capitalising the "I". However I could not find a sensible source for any of this yet. If I do I'll tidy it up. Cheers. Ben   Mac  Dui  08:01, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * With regard to Captalisation on 'Orkney Islands' if the lowercase usage is correct then the article History of the Orkney Islands needs moving to a lowercase title. However the Orkney Islands Council Government website does use uppercase in its logo, as does the Central Government website, as does the Orkney Harbours website in the main body text (Paragraph one). Richard Harvey (talk) 08:22, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, "Orkney islands" is a correct usage, just as "Greek islands" is, the only question in my mind was whether or not "Orkney Islands" was correct as well. I had quick look at the Collins Encyclopaedia of Scotland entry at the time, which doesn't use it, but you are quite correct about the OIC, which I should have remembered (I was living in the past). I have not yet seen anything credible that dismisses "Orkneys" and it is clearly used a great deal by non-local sources. This is not the first time an editor has attempted to change this - presumably an irate local. Ben   Mac  Dui  08:48, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Siol nan Gaidheal
Any chance you could move the above page to Sìol nan Gàidheal? I've checked with their website, they just can't do graves. A redirect page with the graves exists, given it's a purely Gaelic name, it should really have the graves but it needs an admin to do that apparently. Cheers Akerbeltz (talk) 15:16, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I had a look at the website and they are certainly resolute in not using the accents. Question - if they call themselves "Siol nan Gaidheal" rather than trying to correct them, would it not be better to add something like "Their commitment to Gaelic notwithstanding, the organisation name is more correctly written "Sìol nan Gàidheal" (with grave accents) in that language, although this is seldom used in their literature." at the end of the lead?  Ben   Mac  Dui  15:45, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I suppose it might do in the interim and be less contentious. I could drop them an email and ask before we do anything beyond that. I have to admit I've never seen any printed material from them. Akerbeltz (talk) 15:49, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * They may well be paying attention on the talk page if you add something there. I'm surprised you don't regularly see their "ever-swelling ranks" offering leaflets on Great Western Road. Ben   Mac  Dui  16:17, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

map you mentioned at SRB talk
Hello MacDui, just to pass this along, the map you mentioned on the talk page of SRB,, appears to be exactly the same as this History Files map once you click on the "2" button on the right of the page. There is a source attribution for the Commons file as own work, uploaded in 2008. The History Files web page is copyright 2007 by P L Kessler. It is far from the only questionable situation regarding the origin of maps and text in articles, merely the one mentioned at the talk page. Regards, Notuncurious (talk) 18:01, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Ta. The discussion is, reasonably enough, about maps that are not useful although I'm more interested in those that are. In this case the paucity of knowledge might make such an exercise fruitless, but map-making is something I have not yet achieved, wiki-wise. Is there any Mac friendly software you are aware of? Ben   Mac  Dui  18:37, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I can explain why there is so little inexpensive Mac-compatible software available, but that doesn't help your immediate problem (and besides, it's all geek-talk). If you have a ton of money to spend, or if you can get academic pricing (very attractive), then there is very good software for an upscale Mac. Additional money would be required to purchase topographic/cartographic data unless you want to enter it all in yourself, at which point you would need to become capable of using the software to advantage. There are map discussions here and at Commons from people much more qualified than myself, but I don't see any real progress on rooting out the garbage and copyright copying that is currently extant, nor in making cartographic services available at an effective level in our lifetime.


 * I have ancient versions (academic pricing) of Photoshop, Illustrator, and several others, I've constructed enough of a data base to generate maps, and I'd be willing to help out in some of the areas where we really need it, within limits. I'm very far from expert, but slowly getting better at it; collaborated with Deacon of P. on this map and another map recently, and I think it was mutually profitable.


 * If you have something in mind, I'd be willing to work with you (and/or Deacon, eg) to put up some of the more desperately needed maps ... you would need to do most of the specification (which is what Deacon did), and that can be very tedious and time-consuming (that's where the real problem lies, not with cartographic generation). It couldn't be the full range of what is needed, for the sake of my sanity, but it should be better than what we've got now. Just drop me a line if you have questions or suggestions. Regards, Notuncurious (talk) 20:15, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestions and offer of help. I don't have anything specific in mind at present although, for example, there are numerous of the larger Scottish islands that don't have maps. They don't need anything too elaborate - Ruhrfisch was kind enough to make a a while ago, which is just about right. It seems an odd outcome that we have a full complement of 17th century Scottish maps but fewer modern ones. Perhaps it will be quicker to wait for OS copyrights to expire than for a user-friendly system of creating new ones to emerge! Ben  Mac  Dui  09:04, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The Skye map looks like a subregion of File:Hebridesmap.png. It is a small effort to provide you with similar subregions to focus on different areas and islands, limited only by the practicality that fewer maps will take less time and effort. How about this ... Inner Hebrides: 3 maps, one each for Islay/Jura area, Mull area, Skye area. Outer Hebrides: one for north, one for south. There should be overlap so that the islands between can be discussed in terms of either, as the particular editor wishes. The time and work factor on the number of maps is in the annotation of them (such as in Ruhrfisch's effort for your map of Skye), and not in the creation of any number of submaps.


 * If you have something in mind, by all means give it some thought and suggest it. Anything that provides higher value to the article should have greater weight. The Hebrides map is only 61KB; I can make an enlargement quickly and easily, which should help resolution on future submaps, especially regarding the smaller islands (within limits; it will be an improvement, but still constrained by the parameters of the original image).


 * I think that might address your immediate wish; and certainly you should mention things over the course of time, as they occur (this isn't a "do it once and nevermore" situation). Regards, Notuncurious (talk) 16:08, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank-you for this generous offer. I will get back to you as soon as I have a practical suggestion or two. Ben   Mac  Dui  18:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Brythonic name of Iona
Northern Britain was very likely a Celtic dialect continuum in the period before the English or Dalriada. Speculating on a potential "Brythonic" alternative, in an unreferenced way especially, would be akin to speculating on 10th century Polish words for Cherven or more poignantly since continued divergence didn't occur, Mercian names for Lindisfarne. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 20:05, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Edit conflict: I just commented at Talk:Iona. I see what you mean now. I will have another look. Ben  Mac  Dui  20:10, 4 July 2009 (UTC)


 * BTW, have you seen this Template_talk:Pictish_and_Scottish_Monarchs and Template:English, Scottish and British monarchs? Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 20:08, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Geology of Orkney
Hi Ben, Consider the Orkney geology page as a partial attempt to make up for not having had a go at the Geology of Scotland as I promised some time ago. BTW, I noticed when doing the Orkney article that there was almost nothing about the rocks of the Moine Supergroup on the Scotland page, despite them being the bedrock for a large part of the country. I will try to do something about that, even if I do nothing else on the article. I'm away a lot this summer, so don't expect anything soon; feel free to prod me if nothing turns up by October. Mikenorton (talk) 09:43, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Love the quote
Hi there. Just want to say: Well said, I love the quote!. Regards  So Why  11:48, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Why thank-you SoWhy. It's more of a football expression, and I doubt that anyone every said it at the time about Pitt, but the sentiments must have been similar. Ben  Mac  Dui  16:46, 11 July 2009 (UTC)


 * No matter who said it, it fits the situation perfectly. :-) Regards  So Why  17:03, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Muck and sand
Hello, MacDui. I have done as you have suggested and mucked about with the template in a sandbox. I reckon I've got it right, though there is one problem I have. I don't seem to be able to get the full stop in the right place between the theatre names, I keep coming up with this. If you would be kind enough to tell me how to do it right (after you've stopped laughing) I would be grateful. Coll Mac (talk) 15:44, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Sometimes the obvious just hits you in the face. In my case it's usually after someone has explained it to me. Thanks, MacDui. Coll Mac (talk) 16:38, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Anytime at all. Ben   Mac  Dui  16:43, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Scottish Crossbill as Britain's only endemic vertebrate
Hi. I don't think I can do any better than you on this i.e. "proving from first principles". If I can think of a source though, I'll let you know. SP-KP (talk) 16:49, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi. Spotted you conversation on the Crossbill. I had a wee look at google books and came up with this. It may or may not help. I hope it does. PS, to save you time it's at the bottom of page 30. Coll Mac (talk) 17:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * That's great - many thanks to both of you. Ben   Mac  Dui  17:42, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If that list is right, then the page on St Kilda Field Mouse is wrong. At the back of my mind, there's a few more endemic species but I can't put my finger on it right now. There's also Coregonus vandesius. Akerbeltz (talk) 17:49, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * St Kilda Field Mouse is OK - it lists itself as as subspecies of which there are any number in the UK. The wretched vendace is a confusing one, but I have assumed it is either a subspecies of or not distinct from Coregonus albula - but you are right, it's worth a footnote. Ben   Mac  Dui  18:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Nothing wretched about the vendace, it tasted lovely with some reggae sauce ;) Akerbeltz (talk) 19:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Mhór - Mór
Hi MacDui, just wondering if you assist in my understanding, please excuse my ignorance as an "Aussie" with Scottish ancestory. Can you advise why in some records they use Mhór "the great" and Mór "the elder" but relate to the same person. e.g. Alasdair Mòr & Aonghas Mór. Regards --Newm30 (talk) 00:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll answer that for MacDui I think. Mòr covers a range of meanings in Gaelic, from "great" to "large" or "big". "Elder" is also included in the context of someone being X Mòr and some other person X Beag "small", so for example in a village you might get Aonghas Mòr and Aonghas Beag, both having the same name but one being older and the other younger, so people use mòr/beag to distinguish that. I guess like English senior/junior except in Gaelic they don't have to be related.
 * Beyond that, Gaelic inflects a lot more than English which means the words change (a bit like goose/geese, my/mine, green/greens etc in English). So depending on the grammatical context, mòr can show up as mòr, mhòr, mòire, mòra, mhòra and mhòir. Explaining when which of them happens is probably taking it too far - since it's probably a practical question, when you come across this kind of alternation just accept it's probably right. If it looks real fishy, leave me a message on my talk page and I'll check it, ok? Akerbeltz (talk) 00:50, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks to Akerbeltz - a much better answer than I would have managed. The closest practical experience I have is acquaintances in formerly Gaelic speaking areas who continued the tradition in English. I know a "Young L." who is in his sixties. Ben   Mac  Dui  09:30, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You're welcome! It's quite common in Glasgow too to get names like Big Jimmy and Wee Jimmy. And of course there's Terry Pratchett's rather pointed use of the system in Wee Free Men! Akerbeltz (talk) 16:23, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to both MacDui and Akerbeltz. Kind Regards --Newm30 (talk) 07:04, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Page rename gone wrong
Hello, I'm looking for an administrator to help me fix a page rename gone wrong. I tried to rename an article, but the old talk page for some reason doesn't automatically redirect to the new talk page. Could you help me fix this? Thank you in advance. Soupforone (talk) 10:07, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * There is clearly a wider discussion going on about the artcile, but I can't see anything wrong with the Talk:List of topics related to Black and African people redirect. If I click on this I just go straight to the new talk page. If there is still a problem can you be more specific? Ben   Mac  Dui  17:59, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The discussion is pretty much over, but I see that you're right; the link works after all! I don't know what the problem was earlier, but it wasn't working for me for some reason. Sorry to bother you like this. Cheers! Soupforone (talk) 22:57, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

JimmyBobJimmyJoe
While this did need to go (and I was in the process of prodding), did you realize I had declined the speedy before you deleted the article? This is a real Yahoo meme, just not a notable one.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  20:06, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi there - well if I had noticed I would not have deleted it - you must have done so after I checked the history and was looking at logs/ links etc. I also checked Google and I can see that there is chatter about the subject, and perhaps it could be the subject of an encyclopedia article (although I doubt it). Candidly, I thought the initial attempt was sheer drivel and unacceptable as a schoolchild's essay never mind anything else. If you want to restore it and try to tidy it up, be my guest. Ben  Mac  Dui  20:15, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Scotland talk page
Hi there. Your reversion of part of the comment made by a user at the Scotland talk page makes a part of my reply seem kind of, well, pointless. No harm done though, I'll just delete the part were I responded to the nationalist jibe. Jack forbes (talk) 14:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

You're right and I perhaps I should have suggested you do that - WP:CIV precludes anyone else doing it on your behalf. Best to try and ignore the trolls anyway. Ben  Mac  Dui  14:07, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I should ignore them, but sometimes my fingers get a little twitchy and I can't help making a wee joke out of their comments. To prevent this in future I shall cross all my fingers, therefore preventing me from hitting the correct keys. :) Jack forbes (talk) 14:22, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Cat image
You are welcome to comment here. --BorgQueen (talk) 14:46, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Chough
thanks for the speedy GA, I was expecting to be queued for ages. As for the LOL edit summary, my last FA was Ruff I've had two consecutive bad pun articles (:  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  09:57, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You are most welcome. However, I have sad news to report from Arran. I remember seeing them there with great fondness. Ben   Mac  Dui  10:42, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Catterick
Hi MacDui, I agree with your view of the (now banned) User:Catterick. I have been on the receiving end recently here and here, but completely ignored him on the principal of WP:DNFTT. As an inveterate sock, he is almost certain to return in another guise, only we won't be sure that it's him at first. Assuming that there is no real effective way to defeat a determined sock, is there a case for letting him keep his username, just so we know it's him? Daicaregos (talk) 15:26, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I had a wee laugh there when you said "another guise". The guy cant help being so melodramatic it shouldn't be that hard to spot him. Jack forbes (talk) 15:31, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well I am unfamiliar with his other guises, but if they are anything like Catterick they would certainly stand out. I am not all that familiar with disputes of this nature but for myself I can't see any purpose in giving any leeway to individuals whose main aim seems to be to disrupt rather than build the encyclopedia.  Ben   Mac  Dui  16:17, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair point. Thanks for your time. Best, Daicaregos (talk) 19:06, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Simple
The main reason, I think, is to make it easy for the people cleaning up links to dab pages. Such links are usually wrong, but if such a link goes via a "xxx (disambiguation)" page, then you know it's intentional and you don't have to worry about it. Another bonus is that it doesn't show up on the "what links here" special page.

Nice to see you around, BTW. Which reminds me, I must get round to climbing your namesake sometime ...

--NSH001 (talk) 16:37, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You would be most welcome - please see my User page for links to the weather report. Ben   Mac  Dui  21:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

St Kilda
Glad to help - I don't normally check your edits (I do on St Kilda for IPs and users I don't know), but when I saw the edit summary about the lonely island again, I read it and noticed the missing word. It has been a busy summer for me in real life and I have mostly been doing peer review work here. Hopefully I can get some more substantive contributions soon, take care, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 23:03, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

World Heritage Sites in the UK
Thanks for your copy edits to the article, I eventually intend to take it to FLC so it certainly helps. As you've been heavily involved in the specifically Scottish list, I was wondering if you had any preference about the lead image (or images as I think with a sufficiently developed lead we could fit two in)? Happy editing, Nev1 (talk) 20:37, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi - as you have probably seen I was up to no good there when you left this message. Thanks for asking. I will hunt around for something good from Edinburgh and post it there if I can find something that cuts the mustard. Ben  Mac  Dui  20:53, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Archaeological discoveries in Scotland
The continuing discoveries of ancient archaeological sites in Scotland over the past few decades really puts paid to the old idea that the picts,Gaels etc could not work gold and where rather primitive. I remember in Primary school (a good few years ago) being given a little book with the front cover showing a Roman soldier and a Pict, with the Pict being shown as an extremely hairy cave man type figure. I don't think they believed it even then but that was Scottish education for you, in my experience anyway. Jack forbes (talk) 12:29, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, it fascinates me the way history is interpreted through the changing eyes of contemporary culture. Historians used to eulogise the Romans in Scotland as fine and educated empire builders bringing civilisation to the unwashed. As the British Empire is now no longer seen as an unequivocally positive happenstance the Romans are in process of being re-interpreted as militaristic purveyors of genocide. (Not of course that the Picts were exactly vegetarian peaceniks). I think what I picked up in my schooldays was a sense that there was a kind of unbroken line of culture from Celts/druids to medieval Scots to British Scots. It seems closer to the truth that every few hundred years one culture is washed away and replaced with another, quite different one. Ben   Mac  Dui  12:49, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with you there. I have added it to the early history section of the Scotland article. I reckon it's important enough to be included, though I'm sure when more information is forthcoming someone will write an article on it. Jack forbes (talk) 13:51, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * OK - I may get round to it but I'm busy at the Ness of Brodgar at present. Ben   Mac  Dui  13:56, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * When I said someone I wasn't trying to bully you into anything. It was just a general comment. Jack forbes (talk) 13:58, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course - that's how I understood it. Ben   Mac  Dui  14:05, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Orosay
Hello! there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath and respond there as soon as possible.

Fauna of Scotland
Hello, I don't understand why you thought the ISBN and author name that I put in was incorrect. See http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/258340794&referer=brief_results -- Alarics (talk) 20:46, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * First of all, thanks for looking at the article and undertaking some fixes. Re this particular book, the author name is easy. He published several books under the name W. H. Murray three of which are sitting on my desk as I write (see also Amazon). I tried linking from the ISBN number via two of the options - Google was one I think and neither of them came up with anything. The SBN is the one written on the book I have. If there is a new ISBN and it links properly to a description of the book I don't mind it being there at all, but as you may agree, dead links and links to inaccurate catalogues are not that helpful.  Ben   Mac  Dui  09:14, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Chooky Cumberland
Howdy. Could I ask you to put your admin hat on and have a look at the the page for Chooky Cumberland? I had noticed that the page was mysteriously bereft of any mention whatsoever of the events in the Highlands which earned him his nickname, or any indication that his campaign there had been anything other than a minor round up of a few Jacobean stragglers. Accordingly, I put in a very moderately phrased sentence about it, and supplied wikipedia's favourite type of reference - an online one. An anonymous contributer removed this sentence. I have reinstated it, and supplied a second reference, but I suspect the contributer is likely just to remove that too. I am keen to not have an edit war brew up over this. Cumberlands actions are well known to those of us from the Highlands, and the steatment is in any event referenced. Even if the mysterious contributer disagrees with the wording, there is no way anybody could resonably claim that the conduct of the Prince in the Highlands should be completely white-washed from the article. What say you on the matter? Lianachan (talk) 12:22, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I see that there is subsequent dialogue on the talk page, which I take as good sign. The anon him/herself seems to have a lengthy history of controversial editing. If they remove cited material again I suggest warning them on the talk page. I suspect a fair few of their past collaborators are watching it and if they persist without good reason the usual remedies apply. Good luck with improving the article. Dh'ionnsaich sinn a leithid ann; Canan's bardachd, bardachd Bheurla; Ceol na Gearmailt, Eachdraidh na Spainnt; 'S b'e sin an eachdraidh mheallt. Ben   Mac  Dui  19:56, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Him again
Hi MacDui, I've responded to your queries at Talk:Donnchadh, Earl of Carrick‎. Regards, Cavila (talk) 08:29, 30 August 2009 (UTC).

Butcher's Apron
Another possible edit war - somebody, whose bias is clearly apparent from their user page, keeps removing the information that the term "Butcher's Apron" is used in Scotland to describe the Union Flag. This claim is cleary evidenced by a reference showing a bruhaha which ensued when a Member of the Scottish Parliament used the term. Lianachan (talk) 09:29, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I looked at the discussion and while I think it might be appropriate to add "and occasionally in Scotland" or similar, (rather than just "and in Scotland") I couldn't see many sources other than blogs on google. If you could find one or more that confirms it originated in the Highlands that would definitely be worth adding. Good luck. Ben  Mac  Dui  19:08, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Come to think of it, I can't actually be arsed. I don't see the point.  It seems to be pretty impossible to have Highland history accurately reported in wikipedia, as people from outside the region always seem to think they know better - plus, of course, the history and traditions of the region were orally recounted and were not written down until relatively recently (and even then, those are pretty much always an outside view).  Most of the stuff is in pretty obscure books, which doesn't lend itself to the wonderfully ironic preference for web references. Plus there's the good old fashioned abusive vandalism (check the recent history of Highland Clearances for a good example of that). In summary - meh, screw it. This place isn't worth the effort. Lianachan (talk) 23:25, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well if it's no fun, fair enough, although obviously Highland articles need input from folk who genuinely know and love the subject. I hope you change your mind... Ben   Mac  Dui  11:08, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is no place for anybody who genuinely knows and loves any subject. I've had enough, I've retired. Apart from maybe sometimes | removing abuse from BritNats, if I happen to spot it, I'm done here. Lianachan (talk) 12:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Here is my unsolicited advice. (1) Take two months off. If after that you find you don't miss us and are happier doing something else, fair enough. If you are rejuvenated, you will be welcomed back. (2) I avoid wandering too far south. I am not that bothered about what most UK articles say or don't say about the Highlands and even if I was I'd find myself out-voted more often than not. There is plenty to do back home and fewer celtophobes to worry about. Either way, lang may yer lum reek. Ben   Mac  Dui  07:14, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Orkney Photos
Hello! I may need your assistance/opinion. This picture:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tankers_in_Scapa_Flow_-_Mainland_Orkney_-_kingsley_-_29-JUN-09.JPG

Was removed from Orkney by an editor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Orkney&diff=311031244&oldid=310829669

Now, I've made several key points, most importantly that this picture was not added as "a picture of tankers", rather to show two integral parts of the Orkney economy: traditional agriculture and industry of more modern times. Yet the editor is judging it solely as a picture of three tankers (as if this were an article about tankers). The picture as a whole brings an overall statement of where Orkney is today.

I believe having this image adds value to the article than not having it all. If someone in upcoming years has a better image, the option is always there for it to be replaced then.

Regardless, I feel deletion should have been a colloborative decision for this article, not an arbitrary, subjective decision. Could this not have been put out for discussion first before deletion? Regards, Gregory J Kingsley (talk) 15:28, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll take a look and revert asap. Ben   Mac  Dui  18:57, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * MacDui, thank you kindly for taking the time to post what you did on my talk page. I agree wholeheartedly with your interpretation.  And while the matter at hand was not immediately resolved (the deletion), it restored my faith in that there is a process that editing should not be so capricious and arbitrary without collaborative input.  I was quite ready to blow off contributing again - at least to Orkney articles.


 * I may pursue the Orkney talk page posting, once I upload a 2nd picture (less than desirable in my book, but perhaps better suited in others') for comparison/alternative and discussion, knowing full well both might be discarded in the end.


 * Question: I've never done this before. Shy of just "jumping in" and saying, "hey, please look at this...", are there Wiki tools/gadgets or other things used for voting?  How do I know when the discussion is ended and there is a consensus (i.e. how do I know when there's a majority decision)?  Are there key players who vote?  Regards, Gregory J Kingsley (talk) 00:45, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I am glad you are inspired to continue - although I fear you may find reaching a consensus is not a process that involves very robust definitions. It's certainly not a "vote" in the formal sense and you just have to use "common sense" - and of course yours may not be the same as others. Anyone can "decide" when they think consensus has been reached - it not up to the proposer alone. Inevitably this can get quite contentious. For example, the naming of the article about the state of Ireland debate has been going on for years without a resolution (to date). I doubt this will be so contentious. Just "jump in" and we'll see who's there and what they have to say. Ben   Mac  Dui  08:26, 8 September 2009 (UTC)