User talk:Benjiboi/Archive 45

Possible solution to the continued harrassment
How about we have a straw poll on the ARS talk page proposing that any editor at anytime can delete any accusations of canvassing, and that the role of ARS is not x. What do you think? Ikip (talk) 05:43, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that's just as problematic. Personally I'd rather have it on record rather than deleted. Sadly, it looks like we'll eventually have a history of ARS which is dovetailed with a history f ARS being accused of ____. If it's short and punchy it may be a good read. -- Banj e  b oi   09:44, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Its in the edit history. :( So the only solution is a more direct one, with me finding edit histories, etc.? See my question above. What do we do with the edit histories once we have them? Ikip (talk) 09:48, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Add Hollie Steel to the list. AMIB has been edit-warring to remove rescue tag. (sigh). Once we build a timeline I think next steps will lead us toward a logicl route.  -- Banj e  b oi   12:53, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Empty feeling in my stomache, followed by deep gratitude
In stressful times like these, I cringe when I see "you have a message". I was so pleasantly surprised when I recieved this barnstar Ben, thank you. It means so much from you, especially now. I think this is the moment when our differences of the past are finally behind us, and although we are both stubborn and have many fierce differences of opinion, we are truly working together as a team now. Thanks a million, I am glad you waited so long to do this. You picked the absolute best time you possibly could have given me this barnstar. Thank you.Ikip (talk) 12:31, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You're very welcome, for what it's worth I don't really remember us being adversarial. Very few editors cut so deep they make a negative impression like that. -- Banj e  b oi   12:54, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Chillax
moved from user talk ikip:

You have some very valid points but so do those who disagree with you. May I suggest just taking a big ol breather for a bit? Things are getting over-heated and we want ARS to be a healthy stress of rescuing articles under timeline pressure as opposed to locked positions with one another. It's likely to be messy for a week or so but I think in a day or two we should have some forward movement to bring some calmness and clarity. Meanwhile I don't want to see anyone bruised or stressed out. We need you, we want you, blah blah blah. -- Banj e b oi   16:25, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * where can we talk privately? Ikip (talk) 16:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Email. Sorry this has gotten so heated! -- Banj e  b oi   16:30, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

ping
Responded there, thanks for the help. -- Banj e b oi   02:36, 8 May 2009 (UTC) replied Mish (talk) 10:35, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

3RR
Benjiboi and A Man in Black, you are both edit warring over a tag on Hollie Steel, and (if my count is correct) are both at three reverts during the last 24 hours (plus some before that as well). Please stop it, both of you, and seek some other form of dispute resolution. Fram (talk) 12:43, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Fram, I stopped already and went to AMIB's talkpage. FWIW I intend to help AMIB just as we clarified that TfD's can use the rescue template. -- Banj e  b oi   12:49, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Benjiboi, I explicitly posted to both pages at the same time. It is hard to judge if people have stopped when the last reverts were only twenty minutes ago in an editwar that started days before. And I don't disparage "all things ARS", I disparage the use of the ARS by some people to gather keep votes for everything they like. And your statements two sections up '"Possible solution to the continued harrassment") don't give the impression that you are trying to help AMiB: you don't need to help it, that's not the point, but to claiml that that is your intention seems rather bizarre. Fram (talk) 13:32, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough on 3rr. I really don't see AMIB as an adversary as much as someone whose style I feel is counter-intuitive to consensus building and cooperative projects. They easily may feel the same about my style. And they may or may not accept consensus, I guess I should clarify that I intend to help clarify the use of the rescue tag on DrV. I was something that I was also initially opposed to but in actually doing rescue work saw the needs for it. No matter, the work continues and I'm in no rush. -- Banj e  b oi   13:48, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The specific article issue is moot, as I currently find Banje's argument more convincing than the one I had. I was too focused on the weakened reasons to tag the article that I missed the dramatically weakened reasons not to. I have some thoughts on criteria for using rescue, but they're not fully-formed enough at the moment to share. I'm not even sure that they're necessary. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 14:01, 7 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm glad some agrement has been reached and no more edit warring is happening. I would be pleased to announce that my intervention has helped, if only it hadn't come after the end of the edit war and the beginning of the discussion. In the end, it was an unnecessary distraction. Such is life, I suppose :-) Fram (talk) 14:10, 7 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm glad we found some common ground and understand each other a bit more. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   02:28, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm seeing a lot of things more clearly. WP:ARS isn't perfect, but I've made the mistake of seeing enemies in disagreements of late. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 16:36, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks . ..
for offering to help with the citations on the Violence article. (How did you know that citing sources is my second-least-favorite task?!) I've been trying to take this article a little at a time—a few edits per day, at most—because I follow both the internal links (and often end up editing the associated articles) and the citation links, and by the time I've done several I usually am feeling fairly despondent about the state of the world. I'll try to speed things up a bit. If deletionism doesn't rear its head again in the meantime, maybe I can finish it over the weekend. I'm going to finish copyediting to the end of the list, then go back and work on some of the earlier ones more intensively. I'd be happy if you followed in my wake, but but please don't wait for me if you prefer to skip ahead. Rivertorch (talk) 20:59, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If have issues but can happily collaborate a bit at a time to do cites. If you'll mark the next 5-10 that needs cites I'll work from there. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   02:35, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Whatever you can do. You and Mish have been very helpful on this, but the size of the task has gotten a little out of control. Absolutely ridiculous deletions today, hot on the heels of all that tagging. So I've been trying to restore what was lost, but it is hell trying to find good sources for some of them. I keep getting sidetracked, off-wiki and on-, and I'm barely connecting the pixels at this point. Just made a general rq for more help at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies, which is kind of funny since I haven't exactly joined the project. But whatever. I've had it for a few hours, anyway. Rivertorch (talk) 08:25, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Been doing what I can, but my partner is getting pissed with now, so need to break. Some of the fact tags were put in back in March, so don't get too mad - whoever inserted the tagged material should have put citations in before now, and some of this has had a couple of months to be addressed.  But agree, multiple tagging and next-day deletion is nasty.  It is fairly obvious these two have an agenda, and what it is, because the unwilling to discuss, or only discuss by using slurs, shows complete lack of goodwill or respect for the editors. Mish (talk) 10:31, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Invitation
I am just starting this page: User:Ikip/p, to create a ARS straw poll.

I welcome your comments and contributions. Ikip (talk) 21:44, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Let me know if this revives again, hopefully some common ground will result in peace. I think some of the concerns are somewhat valid but the reactions have been so over-the-top to blow the issue out of porportion. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   04:18, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Leading member, care to share your wisdom?
As a "leading member" of the ARS, (since apprently I am not) would you care to reply about whether you think ARS should be able to do all the same things that other wikiproject do? Ikip (talk) 16:59, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * As one of the leaders of the ARS, I just emailed you. thanks. Ikip (talk) 18:41, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Got em. It seems rather redunkulous IMHO, we are, in essence, a Maintenance Wikiproject and that doesn't give us any special anything and no one, as far as I'm aware has suggested it does. That ARS critics are being quite brazen will ultimately help us even more. I LOVE the new FAQ and the search button on the archives so some good has come of it and (sigh) I guess I'll just have to put everything else on hold on do more ARS bits. We'll get there.  -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   04:11, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I am at your disposal, fearless can herder. :) Ikip (talk) 08:31, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Image:LawrenceFobesKing.jpg deletion discussion
This is a fairly strong accusation; unless strong evidence can be given that shows the deletion of the fair use rationale was anything other than a mistake, I suggest assuming good faith here. -kotra (talk) 19:40, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, they went to the two other articles - it had been on four total - and deleted the image there then deleted all the fair use rationales for them. I last recall interacting with them at Murder of Amanda Milan and List of unlawfully killed transgender people - notice a pattern yet? - all experiences were toxic enough I had to simply walk away. That list of murdered transpeople BTW was pulling from a master list of 300+ folks, our version after the "help" - five. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   19:51, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm still not sure if the intentions were malicious or POV-pushing. For example, using the image on List of unlawfully killed transgender people is stretching fair use more than I'm entirely comfortable with. You may very well be right that some POV-pushing is going on, but I'll suspend judgment until (if) they respond to your comments. -kotra (talk) 20:19, 7 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree the accusations appear to be fairly strong, but if Benji says there is evidence, I believe him. Also, WP:AGF does not require us to turn a blind eye to what a reasonable person would say are bad faith edits. Especially in areas that are contentious and/or controversial, and that are known to attract many unconstructive edits (such as many LGBT articles). However, I'm also uncomfortable with using the photo anywhere else but in the primary article E.O. Green School shooting where there is a significant need to illustrate the article, per WP:FAIR. I think the photo should be removed from Violence against LGBT people, which is the only other article (list) it currently appears in. — Becksguy (talk) 00:47, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm open that I may be misinterpreting this ... but ... I've witnessed a fairly agressive and antagonistic pattern that is troubling. Is it obvious and actionable? Possibly. But more likely is borderline but a case of WP:IDON'TLIKEIT editing which LGBT project sees ona fairly regular basis and trans articles see even more. I'm happy to follow policies but also feel the uses were likely acceptable. If the discussion degrades we can look to advice from image specialists.  -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   02:34, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the transgender killings could be relocated into LGBT violence, and used as a redirect to LGBT, and the ones that were whittled out from there gone through one by one and inserted with proper sourcing etc? Any idea if the folks there would be up for that?  It looks silly now, because a lot more trans people have been killed, but it appears as if it is a handful.  I don't have time right now, but there I'm pretty sure there is reliable sourcing for more than that in the UK alone.  You can't win this guys - 'it looks like a list', insert some images 'you can't use those images', images removed, 'it looks like a list'.  The agenda is pretty obvious. Mish (talk) 10:44, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The TG one is a battlefield so I suggest just 'feh' and ignore for now. It's an important article but our energies are, IMHO, best applied elsewhere than walking into a battlefield. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   15:23, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Gay Cabal
Massive! - ALLST✰R &#09660; echo wuz here @ 02:12, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Tru dat mon! -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   02:25, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

JB
Hi, what needs to happen next? Mish (talk) 17:23, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, forgot about her. To show you how sick a Wikipedian I am I was actually thinking about this article earlier today! We need to look at effectively integrating all those subject areas. They cause more problems in the end. Also all the refs should be formatted per WP:Cite but that we have them is more than half the battle. We also should look at the best way to intergrate the trans bits as that will be the source of conflict. I think that we put in the initial 2004 bits and then come back to a whole paragraph for the 2008 nom, protest, etc. I only have a short time presently but, yes, will devote my next chunk of energy to this. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   02:34, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

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Gene Robinson BLP name dispute - recruit FA opinions asap
Per Talk:Gene_Robinson. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi

Refer Robinson to Contact us/Article problem/Factual error (from subject). -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi
 * Done. No OTRS needed presently. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   23:04, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Barnstar

 * Thank you so much! I do try! -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   02:26, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You deserve it, you groovy guy. :) Ikip (talk) 12:13, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

RFA thank you

 * Congrats! -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   23:53, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Careful
you are at 2rr at FAQ Ikip (talk) 23:17, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, make sure both you and Ikip only use your three reverts, to game it into your preferred version. Much easier than discussing it anywhere. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 23:41, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If you insist on keeping this comment, please strike the accusations of gaming. Thanks! Ikip (talk) 23:51, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There's pretty obvious efforts to coordinate revert warring, so no, I don't think I'll be striking anything. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 23:53, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll look to opening a thread so even more enrgy can be spent addressing the very same issues. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   23:59, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Idea
Please see Article_rescue_contest_2, if you are interested. Thanks! Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 16:41, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I made a few comments there. The whole idea needs help focussing and, IMHO, commence after we build up the ARS "how to" page. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   03:01, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Prop 8
Have you seen this? Jack Black is so funny. - ALLST✰R &#09660; echo wuz here @ 07:24, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Love, love, love Jack Black! His band Tenacious D is a scream - they have one video all about sperm which is disturbing no matter how you stack it. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   23:34, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

LBGT Interview?
Greetings! I don't know if you read the Signpost, but I'm one of the writers for the Wikiproject Report, in which we interview active members of various projects. Based on your high level of activity with WikiProject LGBT studies (both recently and overall) and your article work on related topics, I've decided that I'd like to interview you. If you're interested, just drop a note here or on my talk page, and I'll walk you through the rest. If not, no worries, but would you mind pointing me to another member of the project who you think would be a good interviewee? Thanks! --Cryptic C62 · Talk 17:46, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I love the Signpost and would be happy to help in any way. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   23:34, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Cool beans. The interview will take place here. I'll be posting questions (usually one to three at a time) for you to answer until we either get a good solid page of content or the publishing deadline (Sunday night) arrives, but don't feel rushed. If we have to wait an issue to publish, so be it. I advice adding the workpage to your watchlist so I don't have to notify you of new questions. If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to ask here, my talk page, or the interview talk page. Cool beans. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 02:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi, regarding the Homosexual Equality Rally in London 1974 etc.
I have inserted a pruned version of the article into the main text on the article for the Campaign for Homosexual Equality in the appropriate place, and once I got rid of the rhetoric it was substantially smaller. So, the original one can go, or be used to redirect.

I have created a draft page for the 1971 GLF action at the 'Festival of Light', and it is here: GLF 1971 Festival of Light zap.

Could you have a quick look over it, see if it looks OK, and if you and Allstar are OK with it, I will create a new article for it. Thanks Mish (talk) 23:27, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Great work! I redirected Homosexual Equality Rally in London 1974 to the section at Campaign for Homosexual Equality.
 * GLF 1971 Festival of Light needs a few tweaks, UK Gay Liberation Front 1971 Festival of Light action sounds dreadful but might be the best. At least create a few redirects once the title is sorted out. I would create a background section that addresses what Festival of Light was, how important, etc as well as the general LGBT movement at the time, US and UK activists influenced each other so Stonewall certainly helped inspire more people towards open activism. Then move the Festival of Light info from the lede that doesn't need to be there. Then tweak the lede a bit to summarize the event's importnace/impact. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   23:47, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, thanks, I'll get on to it in the next day or so. Mish (talk) 23:57, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

PS.If you get a moment, could you pop over to the Bindel talk page and give your opinion on whether you think the re-written draft is OK to replace the existing one. I tried it without the sections, time-sequenced, but it was long and Becky didn't like it. The only issue I have is that the one section is disproportionately long compared to the others. But people can slim that down at a later date if necessary, and if it can be done without introducing bias. Mish (talk) 00:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I will within a day or so, sorry for neglecting it so much; do you want minor changes there I guess? -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   01:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)