User talk:Berig/Archive 2 (December 22, 2006 - January 31, 2007)

Footnotes & Haakon
Now let's reiterate: you come to the footnotes talk page requesting some info, Wikipedia talk:Footnotes. I point you to the relevant guideline (WP:CITE), quoting the relevant text:"If quoting from a different language source, an English translation should be given with the original-language quote beside it."Then you misinterpret that, and start adding original-language quotes, where an acceptable English translation has been published.

If you want to continue using non-English sources (like the familjebok and the encyklopedin) for verifiability, then quote the original-language sentences from these sources which you need as supportive evidence for the contentions you add to the encyclopedia, and add a translation of these quotes. I prepared the Haakon the Red article so that that is all you have to do.

Note that List of Swedish monarchs contains four reference works which have both the advantage of being in English, and being more recent than the abovementioned sources. Note that non-English sources should only be used if there are no reliable sources in English, per WP:V. I have no access to the sources mentioned in the List of Swedish monarchs article, and whether or not I can read any Scandinavian language is irrelevant (BTW: I speak Dutch, I am not Dutch). References follow the standards laid down in Wikipedia guidance (WP:CITE, WP:V, etc). I do the same when I write articles based on sources in Dutch. It comes down to a bit of cleverness, selecting just those sentences you need for support of the contentions you want to add to English Wikipedia, and no more. Not copying complete encyclopedia articles. Don't make a caricature of it. This has also nothing to do with WP:AGF - only with building an English-language encyclopedia. --Francis Schonken 22:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I still think that your demands are a bit over the top. Not even featured articles do this.--Berig 08:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Again: these are not my demands. I just quoted what is in WP:CITE. I'll do it again:"If quoting from a different language source, an English translation should be given with the original-language quote beside it."


 * As said, this gives me extra work too, when I want to use a source that only exists in Dutch. But I don't go around complaining about it.


 * Haakon the Red as a featured article candidate? Still needs a lot of work then! --Francis Schonken 09:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * LOL! I am just surprised that an obscure little king (about whom there is so little documentation that there will never be an FA on him) should need such excessive referencing.--Berig 10:06, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * In all earnest, as far as I'm concerned any "topic" is as predestined for FA as any other, see e.g. spoo as an example of a FA on a more or less "obscure" topic, so I wouldn't make a distinction there. FA depends on the quality of the article, not on "fame" of the described topic.
 * I grouped some suggestions for improvement of the Haakon the Red article at Talk:Haakon the Red --Francis Schonken 10:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Your RfA
It looks like your RfA won't achieve consensus on this occasion. I'm sorry about that as I think that you are a good candidate; the only point that I would make would be to demonstrate your knowledge of policies and guidelines when you contribute to XfD discussions. Don't take this as a knock-back - everyone who contributed wants you to be the best admin that you can be! I reckon that you can achieve this with three months' effort, looking at all of the constructive criticism that you have received. Best wishes for 2007 and I'll look forward to seeing your name on the RfA list in the future. Regards and happy editing, (aeropagitica) 13:02, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Don't take it too hard. You're a level headed editor that could certainly be promoted if you took the time to demonstrate knowledge of policy. But then again, we need you as an editor too, so keep your focus on that if you'd rather. - Taxman Talk 17:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll echo that; I think you're an outstanding contributor to the encyclopedia, but like I said, I saw very little involvement in the "nuts and bolts" of Wikipedia. If you up your involvement in the various processes of the site, I'd have no problem supporting you. EVula // talk // &#9775;  // 17:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Sigh. Look what I missed! I definitely support Berig in that role too -- and next time I'll try to put in a good word as well. But a little knock on my user page door when things that might be interesting to me come up would be helpful and greatly appreciated (like a little innocent "Hi there", or in this case, a strange little "Happy Lucia" or even a little premature "Merry Christmas") --- So I can focus when something nice is around the corner. Some people are just naturally distracted, you know :) Happy New Year, Berig! Pia 13:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Berig. Yes, there sure is enough drama here for a full season of primetime soaps. I can't keep up with it all, so I just have to treat it like TV static---tune it out. Pia 09:21, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

An Invitation
Berig, please accept this invite to come join us at the WikiProject Military history. We are now forming a Nordic military history task force, which falls right into the realm of your talent and knowledge. Keep up the great work, my friend, and best to you and yours in 07!--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 06:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to the Military history WikiProject!
 Hi, and welcome to the Military history WikiProject! As you may have guessed, we're a group of editors working to improve Wikipedia's coverage of topics related to military history.

A few features that you might find helpful:


 * Our navigation box points to most of the useful pages within the project.
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If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask one of the project coordinators, or any experienced member of the project, and we'll be happy to help you. Again, welcome! We look forward to seeing you around! Kirill Lokshin 13:47, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia! We could really use your help to create new content, but your recent additions (such as Runestone U 29) are considered nonsense. Please refrain from creating nonsense articles. If you want to test things out, edit the sandbox instead. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. EMT1871 17:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Uppland Rune Inscription 29
The problem appears to have been resolved prior to my rushing to the scene... --Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 20:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

A very valuable and interesting article, in my opinion. I agree with DAB that some of the shorter runestones should be grouped together in one article (as some of them are) but this one is long and notable enough to deserve its own spot. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 20:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I think it is better now that I have corrected the translation from the old version. I personally think only notable runestones should have articles.--Berig 20:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * About your unfolding runestone drama, and your message to me about the two viking "drama queens" the stones depict: LOL, you're so funny! Yes, this is the kind of soap I love to know more about...please tell us more. You find the most fascinating things to write about, Berig! Great work. Pia 05:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC) (PS. Just noticed the strange dotted pink field above. Seems to be taken care of, but I'll keep an eye on it too.)
 * Thanks Pia! I am happy you like them. I am thinking of writing two articles on Gerlög and Estrid. The stories of these Viking Age women deserve to be made more accessible in English.--Berig 11:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, absolutely! Would love to see more of that sort of article here. Later (rush, rush), Pia 13:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Raven banner
I will be expanding this article over the next few days as I'm able, but in the meantime, I wanted to alert you to it so that you could add if you were interested. --Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 23:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Very good start. It is already very interesting.--Berig 23:55, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Made major additions, inserted pictures, etc. Would be interested in your input. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 15:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I have added a section that I thought should be relevant.--Berig 20:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Great! Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 20:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

An article which you started, or significantly expanded, Runamo, was selected for DYK!
Thanks for your contributions!  Nish kid 64  01:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Your invitation
Thanks for your invitation, added myself in the lists. --Drieakko 12:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

DYK!
Thank you for your contributions!  Nish kid 64  22:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Hassmyra Stone
It's interesting, but too stubby for WP:DYK. Do you think you could expand this article a bit? -- Cheers, Camptown 15:42, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I doubt that there is much more to add. Maybe I could add three or four lines but that would still make it a stub.--Berig 15:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

DYK!
Thank you for your contributions!  Nish kid 64  01:30, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

New Nordic military history articles
Thank you very much for your work on the requested articles; they look to be coming out quite well! If it's not too much trouble, could you perhaps tag the talk pages with WPMILHIST once they're created, so that we don't lose track of them? Thanks! Kirill Lokshin 20:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Sure! If you find irritating language errors, please correct them. When you translate from a language, you are likely to make mistakes from language interference.--Berig 20:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

An article which you started, or significantly expanded, Image stone, was selected for DYK!
Thanks for your contributions!  Nish kid 64  23:46, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Talk:King of the Geats
I think you are doing fine. I am unconvinced by his arguments; unfortunately, I don't have access (either physically or linguistically) to most of his sources to evaluate their reliability. I do generally trust your judgment as to what is and is not reliable in these areas. I think it's ironic that you're being attacked now as a Swedish imperialist right-wing oppressor. Aren't you a fanatic Swede-hating Gotland nationalist? :-P Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 02:16, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * In this case, the guy is a true Gothic/Geatish patriot, and in his eyes I appear to represent what is wrong with history. Thanks for looking into it and I understand your position.--Berig 06:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

An article which you started, or significantly expanded, Öpir, was selected for DYK!
Thanks for your contributions!  Nish kid 64  02:04, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Your work rocks
Berig, I find more and more of your work as I go along, following links and reading. You have been incredibly productive lately! All your contributions about runestones are amazing--So here's a pic of cheer for you: You rock. And at the same time: here's to all those who are rock steady contributors, rocks to hold on to in stormy weather, those standing on rock firm ground in their knowledge of a subject (and who often land between a rock and a hard place because of it on Wikipedia). ;) Pia 00:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Germanic languages
Hi there. I reverted your addition to Germanic Languages because your addition seems to relate to the ethnic group, not the language itself. There must be a good place for this information - maybe the pages you included as links? When you do re-insert it, please write the text without any abbreviations. Thanks. Cbdorsett 15:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Oops! I who thought that the reason why certain ethni were "Germanic" was because they spoke "Germanic languages". Please, don't worry, I would not venture into reinserting something which was so off-topic that you were forced to revert me.--Berig 15:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't say the text was worthless, only that it was in the wrong place. Thanks for your contributions - especially since you took the time and trouble to include your citations. Cbdorsett 16:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I think reversion is totally improper behavior unless you are dealing with vandalism. Next time, try seeing how the inserted information might be useful and if needed rewrite parts, or move it (to the talkpage if it can't be moved within the article).--Berig 16:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I am going to re-enter the aforementioned passage which was removed by the owner of the entry - but to clarify: what does ctr. stand for? Center? Click Through Rate? - WeniWidiWiki 01:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It stands for "culture". Thanks for clarifying his motivations.--Berig 05:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I was being facetious :-D - WeniWidiWiki 06:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Help required
Hi,

Could you please give your opinion about this and that. I don't have that much time to work on Wikipedia so when I come here, it's to contribute to articles, not to waste my time repeating what I've already written before. I've already left the French Wiki because of this kind of discussions, and I wish I could stay there longer.

Thanks. Sigo 15:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

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Stub Categories
Hi, i've noticed you've created a number of uncategorised stubs recently, about runestones. The correct stub tag for these articles is Sweden-hist-stub - a complete list can be found here. Thanks, Jeodesic 01:09, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

DYK!
--Savidan 00:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

DYK
-- Yomangani talk 08:38, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Siegfried, Sigurd, Irmin, Arminius...
A fact? There is no fact, only interpretations, and I think that the facts are based and establish on the meanests and logic interpretations of the whole proofs that have been found and puzzled... FenrisUlven 22:10, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, there are only interpretations, but since the human imagination is capable of limitless interpretations, we'd better stick to those that are notable and verifiable in scholarly literature.--Berig 22:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Ingjald Helgasson
Just started an article on Olaf the White's father... Know anything about this fellow? --Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 20:40, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but he is a new person to me.--Berig 21:16, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Bolli Bollason
Thank you for your concern, and from my brief work with you in the past you seem well familiar with Norse topics. I have left a response on the DYK talk page (but you replied before I could finish posting this message here). Arguably he is at least as important as Harald Hardrade, so the fact could be reworded to him being one of the most important Varangians (or something similar) if there are any more concerns. --Grimhelm 22:23, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I have revised the entry per your suggestions. Thanks again! --Grimhelm 22:38, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I have added a possible picture to the nomination: Image:Skylitzis Chronicle iLLUMINATION.jpg. If you know of an better picture, please comment! --Grimhelm 21:29, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

An article which you started, or significantly expanded, Kälvesten Runestone, was selected for DYK!
Thanks for your contributions!  Nish kid 64  19:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Cog
It does seem a bit unusual, but the source I referenced says he "boarded a cog for Denmark", and the Hanseatic League were active in the Baltic. The online edition of the saga gives the ambiguous translation "trade-ship", but being from 1899 it is a bit outdated compared to the newer 2001 translation. --Grimhelm 22:41, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It is probably a just a translation. I have just checked the Old Norse version and it says knarrarbátinn, another word for knaar. The German Wikipedia has a nice picture of a knarr if you would like to use a knarr picture instead.--Berig 22:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That's a nice picture - I'm surprised it isn't on Commons. However, the cog was in existence at the time of the voyage, even though the Hanseatic League itself was not founded until over a century later. The Dutch used the first known cog about half a century before Bolli was born (948 ), and the Germans would probably have used them before the hansa as well. The cog was in part an evolution of the knarr, and the terminology used could easily refer to the newer vessel. Of course, when I chose the picture that is currently used in the article, I avoided those that were overtly Hanseatic, such as the Lisa von Lubeck. The one used at present is shown from the side. The alternative to that was this, but the picture is too close and I wasn't too keen on modern flags being associated with the time of the travels.
 * Personally, I think there is nothing wrong with the current image used, but the Knarr image is also needed for the Knaar article itself, so thanks for bringing the picture to my attention. :-) --Grimhelm 16:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Sutton Hoo
Hi Berig, your rewordings in the Vendel section are very useful: this article is already rather long, and the more concise and accurate this statement about these links can be the better. Which is the second helmet you have put in? It looks a bit like Vendel (I) but can't be because that has curly animals above the eyebrows in openwork. I haven't got a copy of the Valsgarde report, only the old Stolpe and Arne Vendel one from 1927. If you've got that reference available it would be good to add it to the Bibliography, because altho' its already very long it would help any reader or student to know where to find it. The best place for the footnote to it would be at the first mention of Valsgarde in the ship-burial description section. Cheers, Dr Steven Plunkett 01:28, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your messages, received. I think the Vendel helmets are fairly secure in the 550-650 bracket: Mitford and Evans have been satisfied with this horizon long enough not to need to reinforce it massively for the purpose of the Sutton Hoo article. I haven't looked at the English Wiki Vendel article lately, but our brief summary ought to be enough here if the Vendel article is properly referenced and linked. Sutton Hoo generates so much discussion, but if that starts to flood into this article then it will go into overload. Perhaps there should be a page called 'Sutton Hoo theories'?! Best wishes, Steven. Dr Steven Plunkett 17:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Those refs are useful. Dr Steven Plunkett 17:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

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Mannus
The oldest god in the Germanic mythology is Búri, known within the Saxons as Tuisto or Tuiscon. Þórr derives from this proto-god; in the same line as the other gods. The Germanic proto-god is pictured at rock-carvings with its two palms up towards the sky. One of the palms is the sky's Sól (Sun), and the other one is the night sky's Máni (Moon). When we say that the wolf eats the Moon, it is a reference to the myth of the Fenriswolf eating Týr's one hand. The natural manifestation of this is the lunar-eclipse. As with the other gods, Týr derives from Tuisto. The thunder-god's two arms are also identical to Tuisto's two palms. One of them symbolizes Þórr's hammer; the other represents the Sun. This is the proto-god's role as Þórr. The hammer is the life-conserving force in the universe. The Sun, the life-creating force. There are three proto-forces in the universe. We call them by many names: Óðinn (Odin), Vílir (Vilje) and Véi (Ve); Istwô, IrminiaR and IngwaR; Óðinn, Lóðurr (Loki) and Hœnir; Óðinn, Þórr and Freyr... Óðinn's force is explosion, Þórr's force is gravity and Freyr's force is standstill. That is, respectively: expansion, implosion and the harmonic state of balance, that always come in-between the transition from the one force's dominance over the other forces - that is, balance between the two original proto-forces. Óðinn's force is that which throws the ball up into the air, Þórr's is the one which pulls it back down; and Freyr's the moment when the ball's velocity equals zero. Otherwise, look at this Freyr article part: In this temple, entirely decked out in gold, the people worship the statues of three gods in such wise that the mightiest of them, Thor, occupies a throne in the middle of the chamber; Wotan and Frikko have places on either side. The significance of these gods is as follows: Thor, they say, presides over the air, which governs the thunder and lightning, the winds and rains, fair weather and crops. The other, Wotan—that is, the Furious—carries on war and imparts to man strength against his enemies. The third is Frikko, who bestows peace and pleasure on mortals. His likeness, too, they fashion with an immense phallus.

Gesta Hammaburgensis 26, Tschan's translation

So I'm asking myself why aren't you able to see it, and why have you erased my contribution to the Mannus article without wondering about that??? FenrisUlven 20:42, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you feeling alright? I haven't even touched your edit in the Mannus article.--Berig 20:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I sincirely apologize for my confusion, but still don't understand why you haven't left my contribution to the Sigurd article when links refer to web pages that mention the undeniable fact: Siegfried/Sigurd is obviously Arminius. Avec tout mes respects FenrisUlven 21:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I understand why you connect Sigurd with Arminius, but the names are very different, and in order to add such a theory you need to cite a scholarly source.--Berig 22:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)