User talk:Berig/Archive 7 (May 10, 2008 - July 4, 2008)

Conventions in runic transliteration and transcription
Hi Berig. The Ring of Pietroassa article is currently undergoing GA-review. The reviewer noted that - while not questioning their formal correctness - he found the style of transliteration and transcription difficult to interpret in the absence of some kind of "key" to the conventions being used. I have to agree, really - especially when considering it from a lay-person's perspective. While I do not think the article should be changed in this regard, I was thinking perhaps an article on such conventions would be in order. The 'key' you provided at the top of the talkpage is already a good step in the right direction. If such an article could be properly sourced, it could be quite useful in the overall scheme of all things runic. (I have Düwel's 'key' for this, and I'm sure you have many others as well.) Your thoughts and/or comments would be most welcome. Thanks. —Aryaman (Enlist!) 15:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That would be great. Let me know if I can do anything to help out. Also, we might want to think about eventually approaching the MoS with this, as it should be applied universally to all runic inscription articles in the future. Thanks again. —Aryaman (Enlist!) 15:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * OK. I will post whatever usable information I can find on the talkpage. Feel free to incorporate it as you see fit.


 * FYI: If you haven't noticed by now, I prefer to keep author, researcher and editor roles distinct while working on articles. I prefer the role of researcher (it's part of what I do for my work as well), though I certainly don't mind writing articles myself. I just think articles come out better if fleshed out by as few authors as possible, at least in the initial stages. So, please don't be put off by how I go about working on things. I'm not trying to push work off on you - rather, I'm trying to respect your creative space as an author. :) —Aryaman (Enlist!) 18:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Template:Infobox classical composer
This was recreated and I've put this up for deletion (and blocking) see Templates_for_deletion. Thanks. --Kleinzach (talk) 02:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I have answered on the project page.--Berig (talk) 21:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Thankspam
Hi Berig. Ring of Pietroassa has (finally) passed GA-review. Thanks again for all your help with the article. I'd give you some cookies as a token of my gratitude, but you don't seem like the type who enjoys having crumbs all over his talkpage. ;) —Aryaman (Enlist!) 16:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Ancient Germanic Studies WikiProject
Hi, Berig. Thanks a lot for your signature! I will start drawing up plans for the project's page immediately. You might be interested in my notes on the Runic Studies task force I am discussing with bloodofox. You can read them here. The idea is to get all the runic articles coordinated and improve them in terms of overall quality. I'm sure that you will play a key role in helping to make some of our policy decisions, and I will certainly contact you when the time for discussions has come. Thanks again! —Aryaman (Enlist!) 16:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

5/15 DYK

 * Thanks!--Berig (talk) 18:58, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Congratulations!

 * Thanks!--Berig (talk) 18:58, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

5/16 DYK

 * Thanks!--Berig (talk) 05:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Re: Award
Hi Berig! Thanks for the award! It's my first on Wikipedia, and it shall always have a special place on my userpage. :) —Aryaman (Enlist!) 12:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Runes 'n' such
Sure! Let me know how I can help. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 17:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Runic studies work group
Thanks, Berig! I just started working on trying to get the project banner to accept a work-force parameter, but apparently this is some rather complicated stuff. If I could get it to work, it would allow the banner to specify that an article is covered by the Runic studies work group. I'm probably stabbing in the dark here, but do you have any experience with parsing codes and such? I feel a massive headache coming on... :/ — Aryaman (talk) 19:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * OK. After a while of playing with the code, it seems I found a simple way to add the parameter. You can see it in action on the talk page of Ring of Pietroassa. To add it, you have to add a special parameter, i.e. . It would do well to have a little image next to the text, but adding that will take me some time. Thanks again for setting up the new work group. — Aryaman  (talk) 20:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Rune stone images
Heisa, Berig. I'm going to Copenhagen this weekend, and I am visiting Nationalmuseet there for sure. Do you have any particular requests for photos, or perhaps you know someone who does? Just wanted to let you know, in case you have any wishes. --Holt (talk) 21:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Bornholm and Copenhagen runestones
Hey Berig, if you do a series on Bornholm runestones, let me know - I can contribute some media for you, I've taken pictures of most of the stones on the island, though they're all grayscale. I also have infrared (good for inscriptions) and normal shots of the runestones on display at the Danish National Museum if that interests you. bloodofox: (talk) 22:46, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Manx Runestones
Hi Berig. Though you are probably busy enough with all your contributions on Scandinavian runic inscriptions, I thought I would mention a topic I recently came across which does not seem to have nearly enough coverage on Wikipedia and which seems to lie precisely within your area of interest: the Manx or Isle of Man Runestones. I don't have the Rundata program installed on my PC, so I don't know if it has data collected on these Viking Age inscriptions. But there is a good deal of scholarly work on them, and they are rather interesting in and of themselves. I ran across 2 older, PD books on the subject, both with some good (though aged) etchings and drawings. I thought I'd give you links to the on-line flip-books in case you would like to research the topic further.


 * Cumming, J. G. (1857) The Runic and Other Monumental Remains of the Isle of Man


 * Kermode, P. M. C. (1892) Catalogue of the Manx Crosses with the Runic Inscriptions and Various Readings and Renderings

If you can use them, I can give you links to the PDF and DjVu versions of these books as well. There is also a good deal of information to be found using Google Books. Anyway, have a nice day! — Aryaman (talk) 13:27, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Runestones from Copenhagen
Hi! I have uploaded the pictures I took this weekend of the runestones that were displayed at the National Museum of Copenhagen. You can access the gallery here: commons:User:Holt/gallery. I'll see when I get the chance to visit the museum in Oslo, hopefully very soon. –Holt T•C 12:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Between Swedes and Danes
Hello Berig, I just want to tip about two Swedish archeologists, who's work might interest you:

http://www.vr.se/huvudmeny/tvarsnittnr12007/essamellansvearochdaner.4.2df3c1511126c2d4c480002266.html

http://www.vr.se/huvudmeny/forskningvistodjer/humanioraochsamhallsvetenskap/manadensprojekt/sverigeborjadeblikristetredanpa500talet.4.41c4c50b1195b50750780002443.html

It might even lead to the old Berig being seen as a historical person. /Leos Friend (talk) 20:59, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Their ideas don't sound very novel, but it's very interesting that Swedish and Danish scholars diverge so much ideologically.--Berig (talk) 20:27, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Not new abroad, but new in those circuits in Sweden. This will start to revolutionise our history view. /Leos Friend (talk) 03:15, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I doubt it. We know so little about the early history of Scandinavia that the dominant ideology among scholars decide what we "know". In Denmark, the prevalent zeitgeist allows scholars to set the foundation of Denmark to the 200s, while the in Sweden the foundation date of Sweden is set to the 1200s. In order to make Danes settle for a later date, or the Swedes for an earlier date, it would take an ideological shift and such things take generations.--Berig (talk) 09:39, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Things change. With the internet, people are able to study the sources by themselves, and are able to see what the state and their historians have wanted hidden for a long time. I think we have come to that generation who will start a shift, but as you say, it will take a while anyway. /Leos Friend (talk) 11:40, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Vendel era
shouldn't need a ref


 * Just curious, why shouldn't it need a reference? Mallerd (talk) 23:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It is quite undue that the piece of information that the stirrup apppeared in Scandinavia during the Vendel era should need the only ref in the article. It's not controversial in any way.--Berig (talk) 04:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Controversial, well no, but a source where it actually says that the stirrup entered Scandinavia in that period and not in the Viking Age for example is not bad? Many other articles do need sources for things like this. Mallerd (talk) 11:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, If you think it's warranted, I'll see what I can dig up. However, IMO it is just as unnecessary as a reference for the statement that the Vikings used ships. The stirrup and the riding aristocracy it made possible was a trademark for the Vendel era.--Berig (talk) 11:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, but I see you are very involved with Scandinavia and its history. I've never heard about the Vendel era untill what was it? Yesterday? To you the statements "Vikings used ships" and "stirrups were introduced to Scandinvia in the Vendel era" are the same, I guess. If you can find a reliable source about this it will be very appreciated, no doubt about it. Mallerd (talk) 11:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Another question
''Runestone G 216, located in the Gotlands fornsal museum, is dated to the second half of the 11th century. It apparently contains an account of the places visited by a well-travelled local merchant: Iceland, Serkland, Greece and Jerusalem.

Latin transliteration:

'': ormiga : ulfua-r : krikiaR : iaursaliR islat : serklat

Old Norse transcription:''

''Ormika, Ulfhva[t]r(?), GrikkiaR, IorsaliR, Island, Særkland.

English translation:''

"Ormika, Ulfhvatr(?), Greece, Jerusalem, Iceland, Serkland."

Can the words that are under the Old Norse transcription be entered in Wiktionary as true Old Norse words? So that there will be an entry that says: GrikkiaR, translation: Greece? Or is the Old Norse name spelled wrongly? Mallerd (talk) 12:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately not as they are not standard Old Norse. Grikkia R  is a "normalized" way of showing how Swedes and Danes would have pronounced the Old Norse word grikkir. You can read about the word here. If you want to see the inscriptions in standard Old Norse you can download a copy of Rundata and search for e.g. "G 216". It gives transcriptions in both the Swedish/Danish (OEN) and in the standard Old Icelandic (OWN) spellings.--Berig (talk) 12:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikimedia Commons
Thank you for uploading images/media to Wikipedia! There is, however, another Wikimedia Foundation project called Wikimedia Commons, a central media repository for all free media. In the future, please consider creating an account and uploading your media there instead. That way, all of the other language Wikipedias can use them too, as well as our many sister projects. This will also allow our visitors to search for, view and use our media in one central location. If you wish to move previous uploads to Commons, see Moving images to the Commons (you may view images you have previously uploaded by going to your user contributions on the left and choosing the 'image' namespace from the drop down box). Please note that non-free content, such as images claimed as fair use, cannot be uploaded to the Wikimedia Commons. Help us spread the word about Commons by informing other users, and please continue uploading!--OsamaK 11:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reminding me. I have uploaded hundreds of images there, but I don't upload images there unless I am positive that it does not infringe on any obscure Swedish copyright law.--Berig (talk) 11:21, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * OK, there is a very clear page on commons tells you a summarize of law of many countries. Check this page, When you upload your files to commons, you'll save Wikipedians time, who will check it (There is too many image to be checked) and tell a bot to upload it to commons. Thanks for your work there!--OsamaK 01:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Gällsta Runestones

 * Thanks!--Berig (talk) 20:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Šimon

 * Thanks!--Berig (talk) 15:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

6/6 DYK

 * Thanks!--Berig (talk) 07:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Oslo pictures
Greetings, brother in the east. I uploaded those pictures I took in Oslo a few days ago, which again can be seen in my gallery. The pictures from the Viking ship museum did not turn out that good, but I think the runestone images were well needed. I will proceed with adding the runestone images to their respective pages, you are very welcome to join me. Please do contact me whenever you are in need of similar favours, it is very rewarding. God kveld, –Holt T•C 18:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, unfortunately I could not locate the Galteland runestone, even though I looked through the whole museum. Sorry. –Holt T•C 20:06, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Runic studies
While we're at it.. I am very eager to standarize the individual rune articles, but the project seems to have slowed down a bit on this territory. What is needed to continue the constructive discussion we had, and to start editing the articles? –Holt T•C 19:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

DYK

 * Thanks!--Berig (talk) 18:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

DYK

 * Thanks!--Berig (talk) 06:05, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the award!
It really warmed my wiki-heart :} Thanks, Berig. –Holt T•C 07:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Þorgerðr Hölgabrúðr and Irpa
I'll second that that's a great picture. God tur and careful who you antagonize out there in the open sea, some people have powerful friends! :} bloodofox: (talk) 17:41, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! :)--Berig (talk) 18:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

DYK

 * Thanks!--Berig (talk) 17:49, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

DYK

 * Thanks!--Berig (talk) 17:49, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Picture stone
Why the article is named Picture stone, not Image stone? Why Picture stone is being given importance. I did not understand.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 21:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I came to realize that "Picture stone" was a much more common name than "image stone" in scholarly literature, and a quick googling confirmed that it was the case.--Berig (talk) 21:24, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Olvir Hnufa
New article, thought you might be interested. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 18:53, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Do you know if he is in any other sagas? Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 14:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Which part means "priest of the shrine"? "Hnufa"? What's the source? Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 16:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * My source is Lena Peterson's Nordisk runnamnslexikon ("Nordic lexicon of names in runic inscriptions"). -Vir means "man" but Öl- is more mysterious. Peterson writes that some scholars have considered öl to be a cognate of the Gothic alhs ("temple") and the meaning of Ölvir would be "priest of the shrine/sanctuary". The literature she has used for the name in her lexicon is Widmark 1965, 1991 s. 48, 58, Kousgård Sørensen 1989b s. 8, 11 f.--Berig (talk) 17:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting... According to Vigfusson, "Hnufa" refers to a cut-off nose, possibly a battle wound. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 02:53, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Ragnarök
Hey Berig, feel free to add the Jansson and whatever else you have about the other two stones as I'm off for a while and I recall that you prefer to back off while it seems another is heavily editing an article. :} bloodofox: (talk) 09:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I will, but it'll have to be later this day as I am a bit busy IRL myself.--Berig (talk) 09:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Snake-witch

 * Thanks!--Berig (talk) 13:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)