User talk:Bermicourt/Archive 14

Skat
I appreciate all you're doing for articles on Skat, Doppelkopf, etc. But there's one of your recent edits that I disagree with. To Skat (card game) you added "Players must agree at the outset how many rounds/deals they will play for." In my experience of playing Skat in England, Germany, and Denmark, this is never true. In a tournament, the players don't agree how many rounds to play for, the tournament organiser tells them. And in an informal setting, a pub or a player's home, they don't agree in advance, they just play until the pub shuts or someone want to go home or got to bed etc. and then (usually) arrange to stop after playing a whole number of rounds. I don't think I've ever know someone say "let's play six rounds of Skat". Maproom (talk) 21:00, 4 June 2018 (UTC)


 * I think sourced it from a skat rule site on the internet. How about if the "must" was changed to a "may" which leaves it open? Bermicourt (talk) 21:11, 4 June 2018 (UTC)


 * That would at least be true, so I wouldn't object to it. Maproom (talk) 20:43, 5 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Incidentally – I see you wrote, signed and saved your reply above, and then edited it to add a ping to me. If you do it like that, the person doesn't get pinged; the ping must be present when you save the signed version for the ping to work. No harm done, I just thought I'd warn you of this rather surprising way ping works. Maproom (talk) 20:50, 5 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Ooops! Thanks for the tip. Bermicourt (talk) 20:52, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Edition of Talon_(cards)
Why did you revert my edit in the Talon (cards) page? I simply changed the "French: ferse" information, which is meaningless as ferse is a german word and it came from the german version of the page. The correct information is obviously "French: heel" as 'talon' is the french word for 'heel'. It can also be used in a french card game with the same meaning as in english. I don't understand why you're discarding this improvement. Simpleplankton (talk) 21:02, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
 * . Simple misunderstanding. I assumed the German original was quoting a French word ferse, following English wiki practice (English name (French: French name)). Clearly they meant (French for "heel"). I'll change it to make it clear. Bermicourt (talk) 06:16, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Hoping to improve project
I have been referred to your advice as to improvement of the Mountains of the Alps project - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mountains_of_the_Alps - I would like to upgrade and improve the quality tagging - and also the basic items required to make it a more assessable project - would you be able to help or point direction where to go to get help? JarrahTree 11:39, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Replied at project talk page. Bermicourt (talk) 12:54, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Just a friendly reminder.
Please do not change Czech Republic to Czechia as you did on Zwiesel. This goes against WP:COMMONNAME. For more, see the numerous discussions on Talk:Czech Republic. Thank you! R9tgokunks  ⯃  03:52, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Fortunately, no it doesn't. WP:COMMONNAME is about article titles. Even the main article Czech Republic says the short name is Czechia; it is the official short name of the country and recognised by the UN, UK and USA in recent times. Bermicourt (talk) 09:09, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Illustrated Tarock
Alex Shih (talk) 02:38, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Königrufen
Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:03, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Kent School
1. Hi! I request your support in moving the Kent School article back to its original name until a discussion can be completed on the issue. The appropriate place for the discussion once the article is moved back to it's original name is on the Talk:Kent School, Connecticut. That is the appropriate way to handle disputed moves such as this one. That’s the right way to handle this situation.

2. IMHO, the Kent School in Germany seems non-notable as a standalone article. This school appears to have had about a 23 year history under the name Kent School, and then was combined with another school to become Windsor School, Germany. It would seem more appropriate to merge the history of this school with Windsor School.
 * Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 18:05, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Hi! I saw your comment on my Talkpage - thanks for getting back to me. As per item 2 above, this school does not seem notable as an independent article. As a head's up, I think the best approach is to get community consensus by using an AfD, so the community can comment. I will be watching this Talkpage for further comments. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 19:28, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Hi. Here's the AfD - Articles for deletion/Kent School, Hostert. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 19:44, 6 August 2018 (UTC)


 * An over-the-top response with no attempt to research the facts, caused by irritation that another article had to be dabbed! Bermicourt (talk) 07:38, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Hi! My experience is discussion always provides different points of view and results in better articles. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 10:11, 7 August 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree. That's my experience of 10 years as an editor on Wikipedia. So why go straight to an AfD instead of discussing it on the relevant talk page? Bermicourt (talk) 16:09, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Fish comment
"I know of no other Wikipedia topic where one source (in this case Fishbase) is considered as the sole arbiter of whether something exists or not, and the only source of article names." I'm glad you made that point, I see a lot of prevarication and tripping over policy to do just that on several projects. The stated aim is 'standardise' articles in the scope of those sub-projects, leading to one situation I am aware of where wikipedia and a nomenclator's list were referencing each other. I work around this in articles on organisms by discussing the names in the content, and take heart when someone else flags what is obvious to editors outside of sub-projects. Cheers, — cygnis insignis 03:03, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Translation of a scanned document
I noticed your name on Translators available and was hoping you might translate the text on the image to the right for me please. I know a little German, but the (not especially neat) cursive script is difficult for me to decipher. Would you be willing to translate it for me? Please color code each section as you translate it. Thank you!! SharkD  &#9742;  01:27, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * User:De728631 has added a translation to the image page. Could you look it over to see if you concur, please? Thanks! &#x27A7; datumizer   &#9742;  16:16, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Also, the instructions at the top of this Talk page are confusing since "Talk" is almost never used by itself as a noun. What do you want me to do? SharkD  &#9742;  01:28, 14 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The translation by De728631 is pretty close. The only change I would make is to prefer "Now I don't have to stroll over the surface." to "Now I [can] not take a walk on the surface." but the difference is marginal. Bermicourt (talk) 17:57, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Awesome, thanks! &#x27A7; datumizer   &#9742;  19:01, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Supreme Commander of the Austro-Hungarian Armed Forces
You're welcome. Do you think we should move the article back? Damvile (talk) 04:14, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Well this is now back to its original title bar the "s" after "Commander", having been moved 4 times by the editor in question, so I'm happy it's close enough as long as the text matches. However, by the looks of things we need to revert a lot of arbitrary name changes on other Austro-Hungarian articles. Frankly it's a mess. If it carries on, we'll have to involve an admin, as it's probably classed as disruptive editing. Bermicourt (talk) 06:53, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The editor in question has done quite some damage above and beyond bad page moves. Some of it is obvious (e.g. hostile content and template forks) but some of it is subtle (e.g. factual errors that editors unread in Austrian law would not easily notice). I've started trying to repair things earlier today but it's going to take me a while.
 * Would you mind doing a few of the Austro-Hungarian rename revert proposals? I'd do them myself, except you are more familiar with the proper English terminology than I am – me being Austrian, my history books tend to be in German; making sure I have the correct translation in each case would be a lot of work. I'd hate to screw this up and become part of the problem. I also don't want to be the only person on the entire site filing merge, delete, and rename requests against his disimprovements. Damvile (talk) 08:57, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Request for Translation for the German Wikipedia - Seventh Army Symphony Orchestra
Hello Bermicourt: Perhaps when you have time you might translate or create a new article from the English Wikipedia for the German Wikipedia - Seventh Army Symphony Orchestra. The orchestra was created by the celebrated German/American composer Samuel Adler (composer) in 1952 in Stutgartt, Germany. It performed throughout Germany and Europe after World War II in an attempt to improve cultural understanding between the peoples of Germany and America and to foster peace. It also helped to improve diplomatic relations between Germany and America after the war for over a decade. The Orchestra gave concerts in Europe from 1952 until 1962 in an attempt to foster and create peaceful cultural exchanges through cultural diplomacy initiatives. I hope that you find it to be interesting and can arrange for a translation into German for the German Wikipedia, or possibly create a new article based upon the English version. Many thanks for your kind consideration and interest along with my best wishes. Respectfully, 72.69.152.90 (talk) 14:57, 8 September 2018 (UTC)JJ

Hallo Bermicourt: Vielleicht kannst du, wenn du Zeit hast, einen neuen Artikel aus der englischen Wikipedia erstellen - Seventh Army Symphony Orchestra. Das Orchester wurde 1952 vom deutsch-amerikanischen Komponisten Samuel Adler (composer) in Stuttgart gegründet. Nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg trat es in ganz Deutschland und Europa auf, um das kulturelle Verständnis zwischen den Menschen in Deutschland und Amerika zu verbessern. Es trug auch dazu bei, die diplomatischen Beziehungen zwischen Deutschland und Amerika nach dem Krieg zu verbessern. Das Orchester gab von 1952 bis 1962 Konzerte in Europa (Sehen cultural diplomacy). Ich finde es interessant, kann eine Übersetzung ins Deutsche arrangieren oder einen neuen Artikel auf der Basis der englischen Version erstellen. Vielen Dank für Ihre Aufmerksamkeit und Ihr Interesse. Respektvoll, 72.69.152.90 (talk) 14:57, 8 September 2018 (UTC)JJ

DYK for Grasobern
Alex Shih (talk) 00:02, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Quodlibet (card game)
Alex Shih (talk) 00:02, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Großtarock
Regarding Großtarock, the source you use as reference is cited as Dummett's The Game of Tarot, but I think you are using his 12 Tarot Games as the pages don't match. I am assuming Dummett used the 1820 German rules as his example of Großtarock which is the youngest form of that game in Germany before it went extinct locally. The 1820 rules are atypical, it is the only Großtarock rule set that is clockwise as opposed to being anti-clockwise and contains a lot more declarations. It is also an evolutionary dead end, the Dutch and Danish games are descended from earlier Großtarock rules. I propose using rules from 1783 which are simpler and are ancestral to a living tradition.

In Tarot card games (which I will have to rewrite one day), you included "Großtarock, Viennese style (modern): 54 cards, 3 players, Austria/Vienna" in a list of tarock games and linked it to the Großtarock page. This game is unrelated to Großtarock, the 1950s Viennese players who created it were unaware of the long extinct game. This game is one of the dozens of variations of Tapp Tarock.--Countakeshi (talk) 05:20, 3 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Hi . I've cited both as you'll see from the Lit section. The first ref is to The Game of Tarot; the rest are to Twelve Tarot Games. Unfortunately the publication dates are the same, so it is perhaps confusing. I'll rework them to sort that out. I've also delinked Viennese Grosstarock at Tarot card games.


 * In Twelve Tarot Games, Dummett does not mention any date for the rules, but notes that Grosstarock originated in Germany in about 1760. He says he is describing the game "as formerly played in Germany... as part of a continuous tradition" and that the name Grosstarock is used "for that form of three-handed game which originated in Germany and spread to the Netherlands and Scandinavia". Because it "was especially subject to variations in the rules... the account given... is an eclectic one designed to present the game in as interesting and playable form as possible, without listing variants".


 * It would be a shame to lose Dummett's playable version of Grosstarock, but perhaps we should make some of the above clearer in the text and then, for historical completeness, add a section or sections on the rule variants you mention. Dummett also covers the Danish Tarok rules which could be a separate article down the line. Bermicourt (talk) 06:31, 3 October 2018 (UTC)


 * All the forms of Großtarock he describes in GoT and A History of Games... have playable rules so there won't be any loss. From your article, it's clear that Dummett used the 1820 rules for 12TG which has the most deviation from the norm. Großtarock died out in Germany during the 1820s but there were several variations of the game coexisting. The 1820 rules are likely the least commonly played variant of the game; it's basically a small, withered branch.--Countakeshi (talk) 07:06, 3 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I don't think we know how commonly played the variants of Grosstarock are today (except possibly the Danish one which I mentioned), so I'd be disappointed if Dummett's 'rare' variant were replaced by another uncommon variant unless we can find reliable sources that clearly show there is one significantly more popular than the others. But let's take another look at this once the DYK process is completed. Bermicourt (talk) 07:31, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
 * It's a bit complicated to describe briefly the situation but I'll try. Most of this research was done by Ulf Martin a few years ago and published in The Playing-Card. Rule books containing the older rules vastly outnumbered the ones containing the newer rules. Apparently, the editor of a popular series of game books (which contained the older rules) was cheated by the printer who continued printing the books without him (or paying royalties to him). He sued and started his own series of rival books in 1820 which contained the newer set of Grosstarock rules. These rules have been around since at least 1800 but he ignored them until then. He probably avoided using the older rules as the lawsuit was ongoing at the time of publication. The main difference between the rules is that the newer ones have more declarations and a different rotation.--Countakeshi (talk) 12:19, 3 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Oh okay, that's helpful. You have access to sources I don't, and hopefully vice-versa. I know it's not about true tarock games, but I recently obtained a copy of Vom Alten zum Zwanzger, the Bavarian card games book, issued by the Bavarian Traditional Costume Society! Not easy, as you needed to understand German and then follow a rather tortuous two-stage payment mechanism! Back to Grosstarock - from what Dummett says, he hasn't followed one set of rules, but drawn on several in order to produce, in his view, the most interesting game for readers, and I think it's entirely legit to capture that. But equally I agree there's no reason why other 'leading' variants shouldn't be covered too, but of course I don't have the source material for those, apart from Danish Tarok which I feel should be kept separate. A possible solution might be to have one article with all the declarations, but note clearly to which variant each applies. I'm thinking of doing that with Quodlibet, where there are at least 3 versions of the 12 contracts, most of which overlap, but several that don't. Bermicourt (talk) 17:40, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Großtarock
Alex Shih (talk) 00:02, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Brief German translation
Hello. I've been working in the article The King of Fighters '99 and found a German source I can't translate in Google because it is a PDF. If possible, could you translate it? It's this but page 89. Just a brief summary is enough. Regards.Tintor2 (talk) 23:00, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Patience
Hiya. Regarding the capitalization of card game names, a lot of the ones you mentioned are named after people, in which case upper-case is obviously correct. With regards to the rest, though, MOSCAPS does not favour unnecessary capping, which would include things like "ace" and "king". Primergrey (talk) 23:57, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Wallachen
Vanamonde (talk) 06:49, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Randkluft vs Rimaye (reversion)
I understand you want more background for the inclusion of rimaye as an alternative name for randkluft.

Here are the entries for rimaye in a few solid dictionaries:
 * Oxford English Dictionary
 * Oxford Living Dictionary
 * Collins Dictionary

Note that the Oxford Living Dictionary gives 3 distinct definitions for the words bergschrund, randkluft and rimaye: These are the most specific definitions I have been able to find, giving English an edge (in vocabulary richness) over both French and German, as it would mean that bergschrunds and randklufts are specific instances of rimayes. However, other references are vaguer.
 * bergschrund: a crevasse at the junction of a glacier or snowfield with a steep upper slope.
 * randkluft: a crevasse between the head of a glacier and a surrounding rock wall.
 * rimaye: a crevasse or series of crevasses found near the head of a mountain glacier.

The fact that both the French and the German words are present in English is not surprising: the British pretty much invented the concept of alpinism, and they picked the local words from Alpine populations (mainly French in France and Swiss Valais or German in Swiss Oberland or Wallis or Austria). You find the same phenomenon with rappel and abseiling.

In practice, I have always heard rimaye being used as the top crevasse between the rock and the ice by my English climbing colleagues, i.e. as a synonym for randkluft. Note that currently, I have made rimaye redirect to randkluft. This was to avoid creating a new entry pointing both at bergschrund and randkluft and reflect the usage I'm aware of. Whether a new entry for rimaye is needed is up for debate, but in any case, given the references above, I think it would be best to revert your reversion.

JR Bouvier (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:17, 20 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that's helpful. I've reverted my edit, but it would still be good to add the references above at both articles to underpin them. Bermicourt (talk) 08:45, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Jaromar (bishop)
Hello, it was a long time ago but I'm wondering if you can help. The above article is tagged as unreferenced - by 'Literature' did you just mean 'Books on the subject / Further reading' or did you mean that those were the sources you used to write the article? Thanks for any help you can offer, Boleyn (talk) 08:11, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
 * . It was translated from German Wikipedia where they tend to put their sources in "Literature" rather than using lots of inline citations. One of the sources is linked to Wikisource and contains some of the information used in the article. HTH. Bermicourt (talk) 08:14, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Boleyn (talk) 19:35, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Solo 66
— Maile (talk) 00:01, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Lampeln
Alex Shih (talk) 00:02, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Mistigri (card game)
Alex Shih (talk) 00:02, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Ramsen
Gatoclass (talk) 12:01, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Binokel
— Maile (talk) 12:02, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Scharwenzel
— Maile (talk) 00:02, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Bierlachs
Hello! Your submission of Bierlachs at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! SL93 (talk) 10:18, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Ace-ten games: Pinochle
You edit summary stated: "article suggests 10s rank as normal", and that's why I reverted it because that summary is 100% wrong. 10s do not rank norma.... since it's A-10-K-Q-J-9. And while the marriage group category states specifically that "Card games in the Marriage group are Ace-Ten games", the King-Queen games category says nothing at the top of the page (which it should). Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:30, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The edit summary was an error. When I add the summary, sometimes it picks up another comment from the drop-down list and inserts that instead. I'm not sure why, it may be that a small movement of the mouse makes it hover over the wrong comment and as I hit return the wrong one goes in. That's what happened this time. I agree that the categories in this area should all have explanations, not least, because different sources use slightly different terminology, but we need to be clear. I'm in the process of tidying up the categories and adding explanatory notes. Pinochle is unusual in that it has both King/Queen and Queen/Jack bonus combinations. Parlett groups it (along with Bezique, Binokel and Marjolet) as a Queen-Jack game because of the special 'pinochle' bonus, but at the moment I've put it under both categories, but I'm thinking of following Parlett and grouping all of these similar games under the Queen-Jack banner which is their special feature and gives the games their names. Bermicourt (talk) 08:11, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

2019


Die Zeit, die Tag und Jahre macht

Happy 2019

begin it with music and memories

Not too late, I hope ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:58, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Navbox for Dice games
Greetings, As a follow up on article Macao (dice game), I added a navbox instead of the See also list. Thanks for the suggestion to use a Navbox instead. Before populating to the other Dice game articles, could you check Template:Dice games please? It's been a long time since I made a new Navbox so a second set of eyes would be great. Cheers! JoeHebda (talk) 13:26, 15 January 2019 (UTC)


 * That's great - I like the new navbox. A good outcome. Thanks. Bermicourt (talk) 15:55, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

DYK for Bester Bube
– Amakuru (talk) 00:03, 19 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you for all the games, and also for your help for Wilhelm Kempf, "open dialogue" on the Main page today! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:50, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Template:Falsche ISBN listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Template:Falsche ISBN. Since you had some involvement with the Template:Falsche ISBN redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Steel1943 (talk) 23:06, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Norman McMahon
Done as qpq for Template:Did you know nominations/Magdeburg Ivories. Thanks for your patience! Johnbod (talk) 17:23, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for February 9
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Dreiertarock, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Mond ([//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dablinks.py/Dreiertarock check to confirm] | [//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dab_solver.py/Dreiertarock?client=notify fix with Dab solver]).

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 09:11, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

DYK for Bierlachs
Vanamonde (Talk) 00:01, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Questions about Bierlachs
I've just read the Bierlachs article. Thank you for providing it. It looks interesting, and I'm hoping to play it soon. But I'd like to understand the rules first, and have some questions: Maproom (talk) 08:04, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 * "A target score is set and only minus scores are reckoned." I think this means that all scores are reckoned, but as negative, against the player or players on the losing side.
 * "In other words, when a soloist wins a deal" – does this refer only to players in a solo contract, or to any declarer? If the latter, the word "declarer" would be clearer than "soloist".
 * It's not clear how many points are lost when a contract fails. If I am declarer, and go off in acorns with one matador, I assume I lose 48 points, as in regular Skat – but maybe it's only 24. If I am declarer and make in acorns with one matador, I assume each other player loses 24. What is correct? Some examples are needed here.
 * "As a player nears the target score, he is forced to try and win the auction in order not to collect any more minus points." I don't understand this. If my interpretation of the scoring is correct, a player who is near the target score risks more by declaring than by defending.

Thanks, those are good questions. The answers are: I'm not a Skat player - I'm busy learning games like Schafkopf, Schnapsen and Binokel - so I'm going by what the experts say. But please let me know if anything's still unclear. Bermicourt (talk) 18:30, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 * If a declarer loses, scoring is as per Skat i.e. they lose double the game value. If they win, the two opponents are each penalised by the basic game value. I've given an example now in the article.
 * In Skat (and Bierlachs), a soloist always plays against two defenders. I've changed the word to "declarer" to make that, hopefully, clearer.
 * Covered in bullet one.
 * According to both the main sources, the tendency is for a player who enters the 'danger zone' to risk a game with his hand, rather than let an opponent declare a game that suits his hand. I guess it's like other games where you're about to lose - you have nothing more to lose by risking a game, but you might pull it off.

DYK for Briscan
— Maile (talk) 00:02, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

DYK for Mulatschak
— Maile (talk) 12:02, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Suit of Swords
Tarot reader to tarock player – would you like to work together on Suit of swords? – ♠Vami _IV†♠  13:40, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi Vami. Yes, that would be helpful. I'm trying to separate the subjects of card playing and cartomancy, particularly because there is a lack of understanding English-speaking countries about the use of tarot/tarock cards for normal card playing, whereas their fortune-telling role is relatively well known. But I'm open to suggestions as to how best to do this. I did wonder whether suit of swords should be moved to e.g. Swords (cartomancy) since the article is mainly about the meaning of individual Sword cards in divination. Noting that I've created a separate stub, Swords (suit), about the playing cards to match all the others e.g. Clubs (suit) and Acorns (suit). What do you think? Bermicourt (talk) 13:50, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Separating them into "playing card" and "divinatory object" sounds like a good idea to me. There are also individual cards for each of the Swords cards and I question their notability. They refer to the tarot cards as of writing this. Deletion best option? – ♠Vami _IV†♠  16:41, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * There is already a natural separation between Batons (suit) and Suit of Wands; even the title of the latter suggests its divinatory nature. We could do the same by moving Suit of Cups to Suit of Goblets thus distinguishing it from Cups (suit). Whether "suit of X" is the best name for the articles I'm not sure; you'd probably be better placed to judge that. And I have no particular problem with deleting the individual card articles if their content is low and can be covered in the Suit of Swords article. Cheers. Bermicourt (talk) 18:00, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

DYK for Hintersche
— Maile (talk) 12:01, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Precious anniversary
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:17, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, thanks, I give you thanks, for all you've done!--Symposiarch (talk) 14:06, 10 March 2019 (UTC) featuring Marshall Hall (singer)

Please will you work with me to draft an RFC on Portal criteria?
Hi Bermicourt

Please will you work with me to draft an RFC on the criteria for creating/deleting/retaining portals?

I have written a very rough first draft at User:BrownHairedGirl/Draft RFC on Portal criteria, just to kick things off.

At User talk:BrownHairedGirl/Draft RFC on Portal criteria I set out why I think it would be helpful if a small group of editors of differing views worked together to draft an RFC which could establish a broad community consensus on which portals should exist and which should not. This is one of 4 invites, through which I hope to establish group of 5 editors to collaborate on ths one task.

Please can you reply at User talk:BrownHairedGirl/Draft RFC on Portal criteria, so that others can see your response?

Thanks! -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:01, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Of course. And I've replied at the target as requested. Bermicourt (talk) 09:23, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Scarne
Scarne is an extremely unreliable source for the history of card games. Much of his research is either fictious or plagiarized. For example, Scarne doesn't prove how the bonus of "blackjack" appeared in the game of Twenty-One (card game). An article by Thierry Depaulis in The Playing-Card traces the name of "blackjack" to the Yukon Gold Rush in Canada. You can read it here: --Countakeshi (talk) 14:30, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * . Thanks, that doesn't surprise me. I don't own Scarne and just took the details from the Blackjack article. In doing so, I did note that the history of Blackjack seemed suspect in places compared with my research which is naturally limited to my own library and the Internet. I haven't been going at this very long, but I've already discerned that card game books are not always reliable and even card historians sometimes get it wrong or miss pieces of the jigsaw. One hilarious error, which even Parlett has repeated, is that Bierspiel is a German variant of Rams. This is asserted in early 20th century Hoyles, but I have yet to find a single German reference to an actual game called Bierspiel. Not surprising because Bierspiel means "drinking game", so there are lots of sources which say "the drinking game of Foo", where Foo is Cerevis, Eilfern (Elfern) and, yes, even Rammes (Rams)! To be fair, more information has become available since some of the key books were researched.


 * You clearly have a head start on me in this area, so I wonder if we should work a bit more closely on this together? My primary focus is on German and Austrian games, but strays into other areas where there is related material. I'm keen to include the history and current situation and to record rules, based on reliable sources rather than randomly culled off the internet or written from scratch as some seem to be. Bermicourt (talk) 15:50, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

DYK for Jaggln
&mdash; Amakuru (talk) 00:03, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Tapp Tarock
In Tapp Tarock, the bids of "Unterer" and "Oberer" are described as requiring one to take the top or bottom 3 cards.

Both "The Game of Tarot" in the References, and "A History of Games Played with the Tarot Pack" mention this only as a variant, documented only in a Piatnik leaflet:

From page 453 of the latter: "The Piatnik leaflet KRT eccentrically lays down that a declarer who bid Unterer exposes the whole of the talon, but must then take for himself the three bottom cards, and the one who bid Oberer must, having exposed the whole talon, take for himself the three top cards."

The prior history described in both books, as well as the scoring, makes clear that all 3 bids should be treated the same except the score: Dreier being at the 3rd level, Unterer at the 4th, and Oberer at the 5th, taking the base levels of 1, 2, or 3, and raising them by exposing both halves and then freely choosing either.

I am unaware how often the distinction between the later bids as described in the Piatnik leaflet is observed in play; but perhaps there should at least be a note sourcing that and noting a diversity of opinion. I looked through "Die große Humboldt-Enzyklopädie der Kartenspiele" and didn't find any explanation at all (though my German is not strong, and I may have overlooked it); I could not find "Das große Tarock-Buch" online.

(This is my first comment on a Wikipedia article - please let me know if I should have included more or less information, or anything like that!)

Nisterius (talk) 20:12, 2 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I've copied this good question to Talk:Tapp Tarock where I've also responded in detail. Please make any further comments there. Bermicourt (talk) 19:48, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Katja Wulff
... or rather, your nice message there, thank you, - too far away from the article to respond there. We sing Christ ist erstanden, and more, but first "Wenn ich einmal soll scheiden" (When I'll have to depart). Playlist here, and funeral right after Easter, - life and death are close these days. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:55, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Infobox Austrian Landesstraße
Template:Infobox Austrian Landesstraße has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page.  Imzadi 1979  →   13:23, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

DYK for Knüffeln
&mdash; Amakuru (talk) 00:02, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

DYK for Fipsen
&mdash; Amakuru (talk) 00:01, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Pollack
Pollack is the spelling used in most dictionaries for the fish. The German card game is almost unknown in the English-speaking world. The hatnote is entirely appropriate. DuncanHill (talk) 20:31, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * A hatnote makes sense, but not to another niche article which, in any case, is at Pollock. There are numerous Pollack and Pollock-related articles, so pointing to the dab is more logical. Bermicourt (talk) 21:28, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I've amended the hatnote accordingly. If you still have concerns, please discuss them at the talk page. Bermicourt (talk) 21:31, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

DYK for Kosakeln
&mdash; Amakuru (talk) 00:02, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

DYK for Pollack (card game)
— Maile (talk) 00:02, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Nain Jaune
Hello! Your submission of Nain Jaune at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 08:24, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

DYK for Bête
Gatoclass (talk) 00:01, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

The Great Wall of China: Documentary
1, 2, 3, 4. Geng Zhou, a soldier of Qi Jiguang, is a fictional character, but he is the second main protagonist, then he could have an own page. It could also be created the documentary page: Behind the Great Wall. Please, can you help me, because I'm too busy? Thank you very much. --79.16.239.200 13:15, 4 July 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.16.239.200 (talk)


 * I think you have messaged the wrong person. I know nothing about these characters, nor am I even remotely interested. Bermicourt (talk) 14:08, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Individual playing card suit articles
A vote was held in 2010 in favor of merging all the articles of playing card suits as they were stubs. The main article already contains all the necessary information. The suit articles that you have recreated are essentially just galleries. They also contain the erroneous claim that German or Swiss suits evolved from Latin ones. In actuality, they are just survivors from a large pool of experimental insignia created to replace the Latin ones. As such, there is no correspondance between the Latin or German/Swiss-German suits.

On another note, would you happen to know any games that pair German or Swiss suits? Shields, hearts, and bells are free floating suit signs but acorns, roses, and leaves are linked by petioles to a stem.--Countakeshi (talk) 22:20, 4 July 2019 (UTC)


 * My intention was to expand the suit articles over time, for example, with information about the specific role of individual cards in games, for example, the Eight of Leaves as the 'dog' or 'mad dog' with special privileges in several games and its possible origin in those cards depicting dogs. Or the special role of the King of Hearts in numerous games where it is known e.g. as Maxi, Brusbart or Strawberry George and is a permanent trump. So I think they can be expanded and I was also trying to avoid them being conflated with the fortune-telling articles such as the Suit of Coins etc which mixes two totally different usages and practices and, often, different card packs (although I accept that some of the older tarot packs appear to be used for both purposes). I agree that German and Swiss suits 'followed' rather than 'evolved from' Latin suits. I may have overlooked that in translating. Let's correct that.


 * Re German and Swiss suits - I'm not sure quite what you're asking. Are there any packs which combine German and Swiss suit symbols? Not as far as I know, but you can get cards that combine French and Swiss suits (Combi-Jasskarten). Or do you mean where suits are paired as in red suits or black suits being sometimes paired e.g. Tod und Leben or where certain cards are paired by colour e.g. the Right and Left Bowers in Reunion or Best and Under Bowers in Bester Bube? I think the answer is yes. For example, Reunion was played with German- as well as French-suited cards and, although the rules only explain the pairing for French suits, by implication if you played with German suits you would have to pair them. In creating 'aides memoires' to play the game, I've put the rules on one side for French cards and on the other for German suits. I've paired Acorns with Leaves and Hearts with Bells using the normal equivalence given by Parlett et al. As it happens that pairs the two suits with free floating signs and the two with signs attached to a stem. I know there are other games where this pairing is used - did you want me to look them up and let you know? Bermicourt (talk) 08:12, 5 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes, some games required suits to be paired by colour or shape. For Latin suits it would be long versus round suits. This only affected a small number of mostly archaic games but there are exceptions like Canasta. See Playing_card_suit. I was wondering if there has ever been a tradition among players in Central Europe in pairing suits. Is there a terminological equivalent to black/red, long/round, or weak/strong as found in other suit systems? The only regional reference I can find goes back to the very beginning in 1377 where Johannes of Basel referred to (presumably Latin) suits as either being good or evil.--Countakeshi (talk) 08:59, 5 July 2019 (UTC)


 * That's interesting. Of course, in games using the 52-card Tarock packs, pairing is important in that the pip cards of the red suits rank in reverse order as well as the fact that they are numerically different i.e. the red suits have had the 5 to 10 stripped out and the black suits have had the 1 to 6 stripped out IIRC. Other games where the Jacks are paired by colour of suit are: Hintersche, played in the Black Forest, Juckerspiel from the Alsace/Rhineland and its probable descendants, Bauer and Hunsrücker Bauern. Along with Reunion and Bester Bube, they are all probably related to one another and to Euchre, but the origins and exact relationship between them is veiled in history. The only other suit 'pairing' I can think of are the Karnöffel descendants that have 2 'chosen' suits, but they are selected by turning cards over, so the pairing is random each time. Thank you for alerting me to the concept of suit pairing - I'll look out for it in future. Bermicourt (talk) 09:15, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
 * For completeness, there is also Ekartspiel, recorded in the Alsace, which appears to be a variant of Reunion. In due course, I'll add notes for that in the Reunion article. Again the two top trumps are the trump Jack and the Jack of the same suit colour. Bermicourt (talk) 09:21, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Mary Anne Feeney and ART
I see some similarities to the frustrating and time consuming discussions with User:Anmccaff about Jeep trains coming-up in Articles for deletion/Mary Anne Feeney and Articles for deletion/Autonomous Rail Rapid Transit (2nd nomination). Do you think, it is the same sock puppeteer? --NearEMPTiness (talk) 18:33, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Translation request for German billiard games
The history of billiard games isn't as well researched as compared to card or board games. I suspect the games played in Austria and Germany have had a profound influence on the development of games played in Scandinavia, Russia, and the English-speaking world. Their rules are found in the same books as those for card games. If you can read Fraktur or other blackletter types and are interested, please let me know.--Countakeshi (talk) 05:36, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * . I'm willing to give it a go. Obviously there are lots of sources - pretty well all the game compendia include billiards. I assume their rules are much the same and that we want therefore to focus on historical comments. Do you have any particular source in mind that is worth drawing from? Bermicourt (talk) 06:36, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I want to focus first on pyramid games, in which balls are racked into a triangle, as they are the ancestor to most American pool games, snooker, and Russian pyramid games. The earliest game I can find is called Figaro in two Viennese books from 1795: Gründlicher Unterricht und Regeln des Billard-Spieles by Anton Baumann and the Der beliebte Weltmensch, welcher lehret die üblichsten Arten der Spiele compiled by Joseph Gerold. If you can find an earlier source in German or any language, please let me know. These books typically group similar games together so please check the immediate prior and subsequent games for similarities.--Countakeshi (talk) 10:43, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Billard-Spiel rules are given in the 1791 Das neue königliche l'Hombre, but Figaro is not mentioned and, at a quick glance, it also doesn't speak about balls racked into a triangle. I'll see what else I can find. Bermicourt (talk) 12:18, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Can you provide a summary of how Figaro is played? How many balls are used and how are they arranged around the table?--Countakeshi (talk) 02:41, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Have you done any research into Figaro? I am curious about the extinction of the German/Austrian billiards tradition. It appears all the games played in Germany vanished at some point in the late 19th or early 20th centuries. From my queries, contemporary Germans overwhelmingly play American games with a smaller community of devotees to French, Italian, Russian, or British games. Do you have any insight when or why this occurred? --Countakeshi (talk) 09:21, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I started translating Baumann, but soon realised that he keeps referring back to Chapter 2 (Billardspiel) and other games, so I have had to translate that first to make sense of it as I am not a billiard player. The draft is here. Do check it out to see if it makes sense to you and feel free to correct any terminology. I'll add more as I go. Bermicourt (talk) 13:34, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Some comments: The minimum of 12 was more than I expected. By the 1850s, there will be up to 21 such balls. I think en deux balls refer to . It's strange that "Figaro" is credited as the inventor of the game. He's a fictitious character that first appeared in 1775, even the name was invented by Pierre Beaumarchais. There was no one else named Figaro before The Barber of Seville (play) and anyone who was named after this character can't be older than 20 when the game was recorded. Perhaps it might be a reference to Mozart's The Marriage of Figaro (Mozart was a known billiards aficionado). Another curious note is the game of Cinq Quarambole (Spanish Partie) which looks like a precursor to Caroline, a very popular 19th century game. Variants of it survive in Finland, Russia, and parts of Latin America.--Countakeshi (talk) 15:54, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm checking some of the terminology which appears to be historical as it doesn't appear in modern German glossaries. The 'Salvo' seems to be an area in the lower half of the table - possibly the whole of the lower half - and is only a feature of Cinq Quarambole, à la Guerre and Figaro. Bermicourt (talk) 15:59, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Are the rules compiled by Joseph Gerold identical? Who do you think recorded the rules first?--Countakeshi (talk) 05:59, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes they are word for word the same, except that Baumann's version appears to have added a couple of clarifications including an example of a scoring matrix. That may suggest Gerold's is earlier, but it's tenuous. Of course, they could both have copied from an earlier source. Bermicourt (talk) 08:50, 16 August 2019 (UTC)


 * So far the rules look identical to the game of pyramid pool. What's interesting is the rule of the last object ball being used as a cue ball by the opposing player. This is not coincidental and shows a link between the two games. The only difference may be that the colors are reversed. In Germany & Austria, the cue ball was red and the object balls white just like in Russian pyramid but without the numbers. I've created a German pyramid category in WikiCommons but so far only one picture is from Germany, the other three are Swedish. Here are 19th century links in Google books: Pyramide billard Figaro billard pyramide figaro 1855 Encyclopädie der Spiele Der Billardspieler (1866) Das Billardspiel (1874). I suspect the rules to be copied almost word for word. One thing to look for are the number of balls which I think went up to 21 at one point. Compare them with this English interpretation of the German game, especially with the three balls per pocket rule: Captain Crawley (1857).--Countakeshi (talk) 09:50, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

gamblersbet.com
gamblersbet.com is an ad-ridden commercial site promoting gambling sites, there's no evidence its "encyclopaedia" has any authority, no evidence of reliability or editorial review, and it was added by an editor who was spamming online casinos. I honestly don't think we need it. Guy (Help!) 12:39, 2 August 2019 (UTC)}

Cribbage
I noticed that you tagged the article Cribbage‎ with and edited the article Rules of cribbage‎ because "these rules are clearly American and not the same as those used in England". As an American cribbage player, I'd be interested in knowing exactly how the British game differs from the one described in the articles, since the articles have clearly been edited by British users in the past and it doesn't appear that any of them have raised such issues. Deor (talk) 22:39, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * it's amazing that cribbage appears to be thriving in North America (Canada too) while, in its birthplace in the UK, it seems to be on the wane even though, until 2016, it was the only card game that could legally be played in pubs without a licence! My wife taught it to me and we were only playing it last night. Do you play often? Online or with friends?
 * Re the articles, it may just be some of the terminology, but for example, 'skunking' is not a term used in British/English cribbage and international card expert, David Parlett, describes it as "American parlance". But I'm going to take a look at the articles anyway as there are several variants including what Parlett calls "standard six-card Cribbage" to see what the precise differences are and adjust the article to cover them. I have access to American Cribbage Congress rules (is that what you use?), so I intend to retain a balance. I can then remove the tag. There must be more on its history as well. Bermicourt (talk) 08:17, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, understood. (Re the personal questions: I was taught the game by a former girlfriend and mostly play it nowadays with my nonagenarian mother, to whom I taught it. I've never played it online.) Deor (talk) 14:03, 18 August 2019 (UTC)