User talk:Betacommand/20081201

ArbCom voting
Please maintain reasonable standards of civility on the ArbCom voting pages. Thank you. Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:11, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I archived my talk page
So, you're going to vote for me now, right? Yours always, The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 03:16, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Blocked for violation of civility parole.
Betacommand, I have blocked you for a violation of your civility parole, detailed here. The edit which lead me to block you can be seen here, in The Fat Man Who Never Came Back's ArbCom election poll. You have been told time and time again to remain civil, and time and time again you have failed to do so. You have had three recent civility-related blocks at 24 hours each, therefore I am blocking you for 48 hours. Please think carefully about your behaviour, and refrain from making any comment anywhere whatsoever before you have thought carefully about how others will view that comment. Talk Islander 12:16, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

December 2008
Please do not remove fair use rationales from image pages such as Image:Beatles yellowsubmarine.ogg. -- Eastmain (talk) 23:28, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I will remove useless text that does not meet the requirements of a non-free usage rationale. βcommand 08:39, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * When the use of an image is clearly within policy but the rationale is missing or not good enough, then please help write the rationale instead of deleting the image. When the image is overused or shouldn't be used at all, then remove it. --Apoc2400 (talk) 14:15, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * please review the non-free content policy. the person wishing to include non-free content policy must make a case for inclusion. βcommand 14:57, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This is a collaborative project though. Noone has any duties. When the image use is clearly allowed, why not help out instead of enforcing the more bureaucratic details of policy? --Apoc2400 (talk) 15:04, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If I knew the subject(s) better I would be in a position to write a rationale. but because I dont know the subject writing a proper rationale would take about an hour or more of research. (as a proper rationale is not a template). βcommand 15:07, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sometimes it is that difficult. Sometimes it's a simple standard case. I was actually more referring to images you removed recently, rather than the sound clip above. --Apoc2400 (talk) 15:20, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * NFC should not be used on multiple times across multiple pages see WP:NFCC. also if it has no rationale for a usage it does get removed from usages without rationales. βcommand 15:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I meant, there are standard allowed use cases. For example a logo in the infobox in the article about a company. That usually doesn't require much consideration, just a standard rationale. --Apoc2400 (talk) 15:51, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If you notice Im not targeting those situations. I am targeting the cases where there needs to be a solid rationale for each usage, besides the obvious inclusion. βcommand 16:02, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, sounds good. --Apoc2400 (talk) 16:12, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Re: NOtice
Beta, I have a watchlist, I can see your edit to ANI. You don't think they won't look at your bad-faith edits here, on WVNS-TV (a page I monitor and have edited) and on the NFCC talk page. Your personal attacks above will come into question too. I might be on probation at the moment, but you got more to loose than I do. For now, you can talk to yourself. -  NeutralHomer •  Talk  • November 2, 2008 @ 05:57

Blocked
Hi Beta. I have blocked you for 24 hours for not respecting the terms of the community-imposed restrictions, specifically:
 * Before undertaking any pattern of edits (such as a single task carried out on multiple pages) that affects more than 25 pages, Betacommand must propose the task on WP:VPR and wait at least 24 hours for community discussion. If there is any opposition, Betacommand must wait for a consensus supporting the request before he may begin.

The mass-removal of images on Ohio State Buckeyes football team articles clearly violates this restriction. Pascal.Tesson (talk) 19:26, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * yet again people abuse the admin tools. All I was doing was bringing one image into compliance with policy. there was a discussion about that image and it was agreed that it was over usage so I removed its usage. βcommand 19:29, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Beta, it's not like the terms of the community restrictions are ambiguous. Pascal.Tesson (talk) 19:32, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * but my actions where a result of a consensus of a discussion, which makes your block bullshit. βcommand 19:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not disputing the fact that there was support for removing the images. The point is that the edit restriction specifically asks that you either propose the task on WP:VPR or let somebody else handle it. By the way, the discussion you're referring too on Wikipedia talk:Non-free content began on December 10 at 15:23 and you started the mass removal at 15:49. Pascal.Tesson (talk) 19:37, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * then your block has no grounds. please remember the five pillars and that admins blocks are not punitive. rather preventive. Personally I see this as a reason to block me for unr-related issue over at Grant Wood. please remove your unfounded block. βcommand 19:43, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Beta, I supported your position on the Grant Wood issue. Community restrictions are in place because of recurrent problems with your automated edits and recurring problems with your handling of conflict situations. They are in place to prevent such problems, they are clear, you are aware of them and they should be respected. Pascal.Tesson (talk) 19:51, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * yet you violated the principals of adminship in this situation, I was making a single image conform to policy. which per policy should be done, also by the time I edited those pages the images where not displayed. all I was doing was a cleaning up after a template edit made by vipersnake. βcommand 19:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You have every right to request an unblock. All I'm saying is that you violated the term of the restrictions and that you made this mass-edit (which, btw, I ultimately agree with) just 26 minutes after a discussion on the topic had been initiated. Pascal.Tesson (talk) 20:04, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

You also performed 4 reverts on Grant Wood. The exception to 3RR states: "Reverting the addition of copyright violations or content that unquestionably violates the non-free content policy." There is a FU rationale on the image page, so it is not an unquestionable violation and something else that merits a block.  Ty  08:19, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please note that a non-free rationale does not make an image compliance with policy. the image in question is a clear violation. βcommand 00:15, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That is your interpretation of policy, but it is not an unquestionable violation, so is not exempt from 3RR. You need to post it on WP:NFCR, not edit war, which is likely to lead to being blocked.  Ty  00:35, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:NFC which states, as unacceptable use: "An image to illustrate an article passage about the image, if the image has its own article (in which case the image may be described and a link provided to the article about the image)". Beta is clearly correct in this case. --M ASEM 00:45, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * # 4 makes an exception for iconic images. The spirit of that is relevant in this case. Also read the top of WP:NFC, which is a guideline and "best treated with common sense and the occasional exception." Guidelines are not set in stone.  Ty  02:23, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 4 which reads "An image whose subject happens to be a war, to illustrate an article on the war, unless the image has achieved iconic status as a representation of the war or is historically important in the context of the war (e.g. Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima)."? Last I checked, "American Gothic" was not a war image.  And yes, I'm aware that there's the common sense exception, but this is a case that is explicitly listed as a "not acceptable" use, not a grey area. --M ASEM  02:44, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you being serious? War is obviously just used for the purpose of an example. The key point is where an image has become iconic, it may merit being used in relevant places. Common sense and the occasional exception applies to all the contents of the guideline. That is why it is in a box at the top. We're here to build the best quality encyclopedia, which requires a bit of WP:UCS, not to rigidly enforce rules in circumstances, where they don't help to increase quality.  Ty  03:33, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * PS: "If an image is used for more than depiction purposes such as critical commentary on the image itself, then it may be acceptable outside of an article regarding the image itself." That is Betacommand's own essay, so by his own words such usage is not unquestionably a violation.  Ty  07:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * But their was little critical commentary, and I did not write that essay, I just rescued it from deletion. their is not enough support on the article to warrant the inclusion of the image. βcommand 13:49, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * When are these silly restrictions going to be lifted? This really is quite silly. I conducted many similar removals, yet I wasn't even *approached* about stopping the edits, much less blocked. Beta? Instantly blocked. Either the behavior is acceptable, or it isn't. It doesn't matter WHO is conducting the behavior. Good grief I feel sorry for Beta. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:08, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Because, Hammersoft, you have not have not come under scrutiny on WP:AN about civility issues and possible editing abuse. You haven't had restrictions imposed on you and do not need to be surveyed in the same way the community feels they need to with Betacommand.
 * Anyway, I do agree that the image is unnecessary, but not entirely unquestionable. The Gustave Eiffel comparison that was drawn up is a very valid point; the articles need to be consistent one way or the other. -- .: Alex  :.  20:00, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi Beta
Sorry to hear about the above thread. Just want to ask since your into the statistical area of wikipedia, and you have a subpage of Edit count, whether it would be possible for you to update the List of Wikipedians by number of recent edits. The last period is around April and May and given we're coming to the end of the year, i was hoping for a last update for 2008. The last person to update it, AutumnSnow, seems to be inactive for long periods of time. Let me know what, if anything you can do. Thanks Beta.  Monster Under Your Bed  (talk) 11:06, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Im going to update my list of all users with over 5k edits. if you want to filter that feel free. βcommand 00:30, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair Use Essay
Hi Beta,

I read the fair use overuse essay and I noticed in the first paragraph it says Superset instead of Subset. I think it should be the latter, see here.

Also is the truth quote at the top of this page a metaphor for the correct application of policy?

regards DFS454 (talk) 18:33, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Im not seeing that quote, but as for superset vs subset. fair use is a subset (or part of the non-free content policy) NFC includes fair use but fair use does not include the same restrictions as as NFC thus fair use is part of the NFC and not a reverse as you where thinking. βcommand 18:40, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Please stop changing the section headings
It is clear from your essay above that you have a POV on this matter. What we are looking for is honest discussion about the matter at hand. POV-ridden section headings are anathema to an open discussion. I am simply trying to introduce neutral headings so the section headings are not biasing the discussion. Will you please agree to stop reverting me so that the change can be made? Thanks, Johntex\talk 20:37, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You are attempting to push your POV with changing the headers. Leave them as they where. the origional post and heading was accurate. you are also breaking in commimg links with your rash actions. please show a little respect and stop attempting to side track the discussion/topic headers. βcommand 20:39, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You are wrong and you are also out-of-line. You are the one pushing POV.  My proposed headings are completely neutral.  I am also not aware of any incoming links broken; if there are any, that could be fixed.  Besides, linking to section headings on a frequently archived page is never a good idea.  As to showing a little respect, it seems you might not properly understand the meaning of the phrase.  I came here with a very polite message and you greet me with insult and accusations.  I hope you will step back and consider whether your statements are a good reflection on either you or the project.  Sincerely, Johntex\talk 20:44, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * When you are completely changing the subject headers to not reflect the actual posts that is POV pushing please dont give me that line about what is best for the project Ive heard them all before from POV pushers. "Logo usage" is not what was brought up. what was brought up was the over usage of such material. If you think those two headers convay the same subject then you have understanding issues. Hammersoft was not bringing up normal usage of logos, rather what was being discussed was the mass usage of non-free content against policy. βcommand 20:51, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "mass usage" is your opinion. "logo usage" is both informative and neutral. Johntex\talk 23:01, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * mass usage was not opinion. having a logo on over 100 pages was mass usage. weather or not there are issues with that is part of the discussion. again you fail to research and look at the whole situation before pushing your POV. Canis Lupus 23:04, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It is your opinion that a specific number of uses constitutes "mass usage". The Foundation has not defined how many times a logo should be used, and I do not agree with or accept your definition. Johntex\talk 23:06, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Removal of images

 * The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi Betacommand,

I see that you have removed quite a few images from several articles about football teams. While you may be correct in removing these images from the articles, it seems that this violates your community-imposed restrictions, specifically the part that says "Before undertaking any pattern of edits (such as a single task carried out on multiple pages) that affects more than 25 pages, Betacommand must propose the task on WP:VPR and wait at least 24 hours for community discussion. If there is any opposition, Betacommand must wait for a consensus supporting the request before he may begin."

I therefore suggest you drop a note at WP:VPR about this, to make sure that there is community consensus for this image removal task. Is he back? (talk) 11:56, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Please see WP:NFC and WP:NFCC. non-free images lacking rationales should be removed. if an image has no valid rationales it may be deleted. Please review policy as it has consensus. βcommand 14:26, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Beta, we're well aware of those policies, and we know they have consensus. What doesn't have consensus is for you to perform a single task on multiple pages more than 25 times without first proposing it at WP:VPR, regardless to whether or not you're working in line with other policies. Please, follow the community imposed restrictions, or be prepared for consequences. Talk Islander 16:43, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please dont give me that line of BS. I dont need to get consensus for for something that already has it. If an admin cannot follow policy and blocks me for enforcing policy expect an arbcom case, Im getting sick of admins who cannot follow policy themselves. My actions are 110% within policy, so stop attempting to prevent policy enforcement. βcommand 17:14, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "Please dont give me that line of BS..." - that should earn you a block for breaching your civility parole, though clearly I'm not going to enforce it as I'm involved. You need to learn that, due to your poor behavior, the same community that by consensus devised these policies has forbidden you from carrying them out en-mass without at least attempting to gain consensus to do so at WP:VPN. You have not attempted to gain such consensus, therefore you are knowingly breaching your community imposed restrictions - please stop. Talk Islander 19:09, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I dont need to gain consensus for something that already has consensus. If you disagree with that go read policy, policy has consensus thus my actions have consensus. Please review what CIVIL means, my statement was not uncivil. βcommand 19:17, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Granted, you've been far more incivil in the past, but in my opinion that remark was incivil. Regarding the edits: the whole point here is that it's about interpretation. If you were to go and remove 50 pornographic images from children's articles where they don't belong, then I honestly can't see that anyone would bat an eyelid, let alone have any right to challenge you over it. However, the NFCC are vastly open to interpretation; however concrete you try and convince anyone they are, they're really not. Therefore, under your community imposed restriction, you must first gain consensus that you have interpreted the policies correctly. Talk Islander 19:40, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * My recent removals are 110% within policy and non-debatable. All non-free images must have a rationale for each usage. (WP:NFCC) if they dont have a rationale they either need deleted or removed. βcommand 19:44, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Not quite true - you've been removing images without rationales instantly, which is incorrect. Such images should be tagged for deletion, both on the image page and the article, so as to give editors a chance to add one. If, after seven days they still don't have a rationale, they then get deleted. You mustn't just remove the images straight away - you must give editors from those subject areas the chance to add rationales. Talk Islander 19:55, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * which is correct procedure. the only time an image gets seven days is if the actual image is up for deletion. Please review WP:NFCC An image with a valid non-free-use rationale for some (but not all) articles it is used in will not be deleted. Instead, the image should be removed from the articles for which it lacks a non-free-use rationale, or a suitable rationale added. and An image on which non-free use is claimed that is used in no article (criterion 7) may be deleted seven days after notification. βcommand 19:59, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Beta, Islander is right. The community-imposed restrictions are crystal clear and this is not about right or wrong edits. The restrictions about repetitive tasks are unambiguous: you know this full well. You can take this to ArbCom if you want but I suggest you first consult with Ryan Postlethwaite, Jennavecia and CBM who worked out these restrictions. Pascal.Tesson (talk) 20:33, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I need consensus to make my edits, I have that, now get over it and please stop harassing me the both of you. βcommand 20:35, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Beta, there's an ongoing RfC on the subject so the least you could do is wait until that discussion is over. This is exactly why I blocked you recently: you're doing these mass edits during a debate on the subject. This is a sure way to bring more drama. Like I said, if you think I'm harassing you, just consult with the three admins who drafted your restrictions and ask them if you're working within the limits they set or not. Pascal.Tesson (talk) 21:02, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * the reasons that I removed those image have zero to do with that RfC. I removed those images due to not having a rationale. have a problem with that? get over it and read the policy. My actions have consensus and are backed with 110% of policy. βcommand 21:06, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I concur with Betacommand. He's acting perfectly within policy. He's done nothing wrong. --Hammersoft (talk) 05:38, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Betacommand, you need to ask permission if you're doing a repetitive task of more than 25 edits - here you have done close to 50. It would be punitive to block you now, but in the future please post to the village pump to request permission. It doesn't matter how uncontroversial you believe the task is, you've got to request permission for anything over 25.  Ryan Postlethwaite See the mess I've created or let's have banter 11:18, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Which is frankly absurd. Zillions of editors here do tons of repetitive tasks all perfectly in line with policy without raising so much as an eyebrow. Going after Betacommand over something that is perfectly within policy is simply a witch hunt and nothing more. This is like a police officer pulling over a man racing his in-labor pregnant wife to the hospital and making him wait while he conducts a back ground check. It's absurd and taking any action against Betacommand for this would be WP:BEANS. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:29, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Um... no, it's like a man who has had several convictions for reckless driving who gets a final chance from the judge: that he will be allowed to keep his driving license if he agrees to drive safely and never exceed the speed limit whatsoever. He then gets pulled over for doing 5 mph over the limit and complains that "anyone else would just have been given a warning". These restrictions were put in place because of severe disruption that Betacommand has caused with mass edits and were a compromise that even he agreed to. If Betacommand wants to lift the restrictions, he can ask for them to be reviewed, instead of just brashly breaking them and being rude about it. Is he back? (talk) 12:33, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The other thing to remember, of course, is that afaik Betacommand actually agreed to these restrictions as they stand. To violate restrictions that you're bound to is one thing; to violate restrictions that you are bound to and agreed to is another entirely. Talk Islander 14:04, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And to go after someone for doing something perfectly inline with policy is absurd. In fact, it's a borderline WP:POINT violation. What he was doing was HELPING the project. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:00, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * When you consider the grief that Beta has caused the project in the past, it's not in the least absurd. The problem is that Beta feels that he is always acting in line with policy, which is not always true (I'm not talking about this particular case here). In that respect, Beta has unfortunatley lost the trust of the community, and so was placed under community restrictions that he agreed to. If such restrictions are in place, then they should be followed at all times. Beta thought that what he was doing was right, but unfortunatly we can no longer trust his judegment of that. He should therefore have asked permission to do what he was doing, and more than likely have been granted it in this case. Talk Islander 00:06, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not particularly interested if he's supposedly lost the trust of the community. He's an editor here. What he was doing was perfectly in line with policy. If what he was doing is so, then there's no reason to censure him. Having to beg to do something good for the project is ridiculous. I'm surprised he hasn't quit the project altogether with these absurd restrictions. --Hammersoft (talk) 02:05, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * He's an editor here who's under restrictions. He needs to ask to make automated or repetitive edits whether he thinks they're good or not, because he always thinks his edits are good. And Betacommand didn't consider the restrictions absurd when he agreed to them, so cut the hyperbole. rspεεr (talk) 10:36, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * But Im still going to enforce policy. if you dont like it tough, any admin attempts to block they will be going to arbcom. my edits are un-disputable, they are within policy. Im getting sick of the constant harassment. if there was any doubt and not 110% within policy I would take this to the VP. But the edits are not in question, either stop the harassment or I will be filling an arbcom to stop it. I know the restrictions and I am following them. βcommand 23:55, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Holding you to your word isn't harassment. You've done a run about 80 of these, contrary to your promise not to make large runs of automated edits. All you have to do is take it to the village pump and ensure that it really is as uncontroversial as you think. rspεεr (talk) 03:50, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * these are not automated, and if you could read policy you would see that my edits are 110% within policy if you cannot get that dont bother wasting my time. βcommand 03:52, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Would it kill you to be truthful for once? Of course they're automated. That's why they're making little wikicode fixes as they go, and why one of the edit summaries ends with "using" as if it were going to be followed by the name of the automated tool. But then, in the last agreement, we stopped trying to establish when your edits were actually automated because you'd just deny it like you're doing now, so the agreement was that you wouldn't do repetitive edits. And these are. There wasn't an exception for edits that were "within policy" -- ideally everyone's edits are within policy. rspεεr (talk) 03:59, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please stop trolling, read policy, and quit harassing me. you have no proof of the bullshit your accusing me of. yeah I have JS tools that assist in find/replace and other cleanup tools. either block me for enforcing policy, so I can take you to arbcom and make a fool of you or stop the harassment. βcommand 04:08, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

AN/I notification
I started an AN/I discussion about this thread. rspεεr (talk) 04:32, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * yet more harassment. sigh. βcommand 04:33, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Question
Hi, Beta. I'm posting this here because I want it to be clear that this is a sincere question (not an attempt to gang up on you).

You've expressed the belief that your restrictions don't apply to the edits in question (because said edits are backed by policy). To clarify, what types of edits do the restrictions apply to? In other words, when are you required to "propose the task on WP:VPR and wait at least 24 hours for community discussion"?

Thanks in advance. —David Levy 08:03, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * any set of edits that a does not have a clear preexisting consensus. Fighting vandalism is one example of something that would not need VP approval. their is clear consensus that it needs reverted. some of these should have been taken to VP. but edits like this where im removing images without rationales where a clear policy and consensus exists there is no need for VP as the removals cannot be disputed. βcommand 08:12, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Just a note
I can imagine it's the last thing you're bothered about at the moment, but given your restrictions I'd be quite happy to run the 10c partial compliance code under my account (or a separate one). I don't think anyone can argue that the edits themself are useful to the project. Cheers, Black Kite 12:16, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Note
I have requested arbitration. NonvocalScream (talk) 12:28, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As an arbitration clerk, this is a reminder that if you wish to provide comments, you may either e-mail one of the clerks or post your comment in a section which will be re-posted to the RfAr page. - Penwhale &#124; Blast him / Follow his steps 14:54, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Your pending unblock and offwiki
This must be discussed and reach consensus on wiki this time, sorry. rootology ( C )( T ) 14:57, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I've asked the Committee to pass the restrictions you yourself agreed to follow as a binding motion. If you'd like to reply to the RFAR, I'd be happy to copy/paste a proper on-wiki response over for you. rootology ( C )( T ) 15:24, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Thinking out loud suggestion
(Posting here as an individual, not as an arbitrator, and without prejudice to anything should this or a related matter come before me in the latter capacity. Just thinking out loud here.) Suppose that for a period of time, Betacommand were permitted to use whatever methods he wanted, but rather than take actions (remove images, change templates, propose username blocks, whatever) he would instead list the items he thinks are problematic on an output page. Then another user could independently review the lists and decide which items should result in immediate action, which in tagging or warnings, which are not problematic, etc. We would retain Betacommand's skill at using tools to identify potential violations, but take him out of the role of ultimate decision-maker or notifier in areas where he's been controversial. Would this work? Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:57, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm intrigued. JPG-GR (talk) 04:33, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If support gathers for this it seems like a reasonable way out. I don't think this can really work without restrictions on other editors, however.  This awful state of affairs obviously isn't all Betacommand's doing (indeed, far from it).  --TS 14:18, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If the goal here is for his return to normal, as a productive editor, good suggestion. Beta, what are your thoughts? NonvocalScream (talk) 14:30, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I wish to apologise for the intemperate remarks I have made both recently and in the past. They do nothing to help the situation. To everyone I have been rude to, I am sorry. As for my restrictions, I honestly felt that I was within the rules and was being harassed by people. The consensus is obviously that I was not within the rules. So from now on, anytime I am starting a run of more than 25 edits, I will get consensus for each one at VPR first, regardless of what policies support my actions.

I understand that the block will not be lifted immediately, but I ask that the community consider unblocking me. Roux has undertaken to keep an eye on my edits and will have an admin block me immediately if I cross the line again. βcommand 00:14, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No offence intended to Roux, but he's had a fair few problems in the past here as well . At one point he was verging on the brink of exhausting the communities patience altogether so he seems far from an ideal choice to keep watch over things. Should you be unblocked, you would really need an experienced and trusted administrator to keep watch over things. I'll have a think of some people who might do the job well - I like the idea of have 2/3 users taking on that role so they can be as much help as possible and so that there's always someone around for the members of the community to go to should they have concerns. If you were to be unblocked, that would be last chance for sure - I think you might have passed that point anyway as far as the community is concerned, but there's still a possibility that something can be worked out. I'll work on getting some names together for people that can be put to the community as formal mentors.  Ryan Postlethwaite See the mess I've created or let's have banter 00:23, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I have linked to your statement at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents per my notice there. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:25, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you want this statement copied to RfAr?--Tznkai (talk) 18:39, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

29 December 2008
You have been blocked indefinitely from editing in accordance with Wikipedia's blocking policy for. If you believe this block is unjustified you may contest this block by adding the text below. LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:39, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yet more blatant abuse of admin tools. you actions are without merit, and are asinine. so enforcing policy is now a blockable offense? this is yet more unfounded bullshit. I expect a unblock and full apology as my actions are perfectly within policy. this is just more fucking harassment by the same group of users attempting to get me banned. its been happening for over a year now. constant stalking of my edits and baiting. When it come to the point a user cannot enforce foundation level policy without being blocked we have a problem. as it stands no one can dispute that my edits where correct and within policy, yet because Im being constantly stalked I am not indef blocked for enforcing foundation level policy. βcommand 14:41, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Presently, this block appears to have consensus. I would remind you that, of course, indefinite does not mean infinite and that you or another party is free to request unblock at any time. I would, however, suggest that you allow a few weeks to pass to allow cooler consideration of any such appeal, in which time you may also be able to point to other interactions on other wiki's which indicate a better facility in dealing with other editors than you have been accused of at en-WP. I do hope that you are able to return in due course, since you clearly have the best interests of WP at heart and you are also prepared to work in an area that few care to - I only wish you would allow the results of your work to be your testement, rather than the manner in which you have advocated and proceeded in actioning it. As I say, I hope that you will be able to return - better and more effective by being more "reasonable" - in the not too distant future. Regards. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:43, 31 December 2008 (UTC)