User talk:Beyondworldsbeyondwords

Welcome!
Hello, Beyondworldsbeyondwords, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions, especially your edits to Inchegeri Sampradaya. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful: Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or and a volunteer will visit you here shortly. Again, welcome! Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   08:27, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
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Inchegeri Sampradaya
Hi Beyond. I noticed that you've been editing several nisargadattah-related pages. Unfortunately, the claims you're asserting are not supported by the source. Please be so kind to contact User:Nemoshaw to find out more about the restrictions imposed on editing by policies such as WP:RS and WP:SPA; I guess you know each other. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   08:29, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi Joshua. Yes, Ramakant Maharaj is a happening phenomenon, so how can one get sources? It is a fact that people come from all over India and the West to receive initiation in the form of the Naam Mantra, from Ramakant Maharaj because he is the only one who is doing it. Word about him is gradually spreading to people in different parts of the world. There are a lot of excited people at the moment, including me. People have come from US, Israel, Russia, UK, Australia, France, Malaysia and South America, to name but a few. And they have made the journey specifically to receive teachings and be initiated. I am simply trying to raise awareness of this realized Master, so that more people can benefit from his teachings and initiation. Wiki is supposed to be an instrument for the dissemination of knowledge. Those who follow the teachings of Nisargadatta Maharaj and Advaita in general, and those who are interested in the Inchegiri Navnath Sampradaya Lineage, are hearing about Ramakant Maharaj. And those already in the know, are recommending him. Timothy Conway, something of an expert in the field, is referring people to Ramakant Maharaj. It is a shame that you are stifling the news of this rare and authentic realized Master who now walks in our midst. Alan Jacobs, President of the Ramana Maharshi Foundation in UK, recently cited him as "successor to Niz", on "NisargadattadiscipleRamakant" Facebook page.


 * Nisargadatta Maharaj said to Ramakant Maharaj: "What you want to do, do it alone". Ramakant Maharaj has stated what he wants to do "to make seekers enlightened, to share knowledge with them, and to remove them from the illusionary world". To help them with this, he offers the Naam Mantra, initiation into the Inchgiri Navnath Sampradaya lineage.


 * Hi Beyond. Your motivation is well-intended: "I am simply trying to raise awareness of this realized Master, so that more people can benefit from his teachings and initiation." Yet, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not an easy way to advertize. And there's a difference between "He is offering the Naam mantra", and "He's the lineage-holder". anywone can make such claims; see the popularity of Ramana Maharshi as the "source" of many western Advaita-teachers.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   12:12, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi Joshua!

You don't seem to be listening... He is not claiming to be the lineage holder. Nisargadatta himself made no such claims either. The fact is he is the only one initiating into the Inchegiri Sampraday lineage...FACT FACT FACT, not hearsay! My intention is not to advertize, but to offer information that Ramakant Maharaj exists. I thought Wikipedia was supposed to be democratic?


 * Sorry! Maybe it was Nemoshaw who inserted "lineage-holder (aplogogies ahead if I'm wrong there too). Nevertheless, you are making statements which are not supported by the source. This edit at Inchegeri Sampradaya:
 * "Shri Ramakant Maharaj claims to be "the only Indian direct disciple of Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj" who offers initiation into this lineage."
 * into
 * "Shri Ramakant Maharaj is regarded as "the only Indian direct disciple of Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj" who offers initiation into this lineage, the Inchegiri Navnath Sampradaya."
 * Regarded by who? Himself? his students? The webmaster? The page itself only says:
 * "Globally, Shri Ramakant Maharaj is the Only Indian Direct Disciple of Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj Offering Initiation into this lineage."
 * So, it's a claim by either Ramakant himself, or by his students or webmasters.
 * And no, Wikipedia is not exactly a democracy. It's a private website anyone can collaborate on (is that correct English?), when following the Wiki-rules. Like WP:RS: info is based on reliable, secondary sources. And WP:ADVERTISEMENT: Wikipedia is not be used for advertising.
 * And is he the only one? There are more teachers in this lineage, aren't there? That's why you need sources: so others can check if your info is correct or not.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   18:10, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi Joshua!

Regarded by those in the know and Nisargadatta Maharaj disciples, Ranjit Maharaj disciples, Ramakant Maharaj's students and devotees and the webmaster. He is the only one who is teaching, and giving the Naam mantra, and therefore, initiation into the lineage of the Inchegiri Navnath Sampradaya. You ask if there are other teachers in this lineage. There may be teachers who call themselves disciples of Nisargadatta Maharaj, (spending a week or two with Nisargadatta Maharaj), but they were not initiated by Nisargadatta Maharaj. They did not receive the Naam mantra from him. Ramakant Maharaj did. And therefore, these other teachers are not in a position to initiate others to the lineage. Ramakant Maharaj is! Here is a source: 'I Am That' Chapter 97, p.479 (my ed), "There is a succession of Gurus and their disciples, who in turn train more disciples and thus the line is maintained". Ramakant Maharaj was trained by Nisargadatta Maharaj for 19 years.


 * "Therefor"? Was he authorized by Nisargadattah to do so? If not, he only gives initiation into his own "lineage". Which shares another light on this quote: "What you want to do, do it alone".
 * And another point: Nisargadattah wasn't the only student of Sri Siddharameshwar Maharaj. Ganapatrao Maharaj Kannur didn't leave any students who are teaching themselves, and giving initiation into the Inchegiri Navnath Sampradaya?
 * Sorry, I'm skeptical, and I'm sticking to the sources. If you're happy with Ramakant, great! But just don't use Wikipedia to advertise him ("A unique opportunity to receive Direct Knowledge from a Living Master." ), and stick to the facts: Ramakant was a disciple of Nisargadattah, and offers the Naam Mantra.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   05:38, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Some additional info on initiation.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   07:02, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Let's talk? But you are not talking... What about the quote I provided from I Am That? Here it is again... "There is a succession of Gurus and their disciples, who in turn train more disciples and thus the line is maintained". Ramakant Maharaj was trained by Nisargadatta Maharaj for 19 years. Please respond! And this is nonsense what you say about Ramakant Maharaj giving initiation into his own "lineage"... what do you mean? Bhausaheb Maharaj is the founder of the Inchegiri Navnath Sampradaya so Nisargadatta Maharaj is part of this lineage, and he then initiated Ramakant Maharaj to the same lineage the Inchegiri Navnath Sampradaya....over half a century ago (probably before you were born) So please explain what you mean by "his own lineage?" For someone who instigated a page on the Inchegiri Navnath Sampradaya you don't seem to have much knowledge about it, in my humble opinion.


 * Beyond, did you read now this policy on WP:RS (and WP:OR)?
 * ""There is a succession of Gurus and their disciples, who in turn train more disciples and thus the line is maintained". Ramakant Maharaj was trained by Nisargadatta Maharaj for 19 years."


 * Ergo, Ramakant Maharj maintains the lineage. No! Was he authorized by Nisargadattah to initiate into the lineage? Where does his website say this? Maybe you can tell us when exactly Nisargadattah authorised him? Suggestions, but no sources, not even unreliable. If you want to believe this, fine. But if you want to add it to Wikipedia, you'll have to provide reliable sources.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   13:23, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi Joshua! I see you have been very busy editing and changing your references. You keep hammering on about sources, well you were noting non-existent ones! Up until yesterday you had: [1] "He was also appointed as the spiritual head of the Inchegeri branch of Navnath Sampradaya, the 'Nine Masters' tradition, a place he retained through his life. THIS REFERENCE DOES NOT EXIST. Pure invention on your part.IT WAS NEVER IN 'I AM THAT'.

You changed it to "After an association that lasted hardly two and a half years, Siddharameshwar Maharaj died on 9 November 1936,

Thank you for using my source, and even expanding on this on your page. "There is a succession of Gurus and their disciples, who in turn train more disciples and thus the line is maintained". Nisargadatta Maharaj then goes on to say, "but the continuity of tradition is informal and voluntary. It is like a family name, but here the family is spiritual".

This quote from Chpt 97, I Am That, clearly describes the nature of continuity within the lineage. It supports Ramakant Maharaj's position. From what I know, I am not saying the line is maintained solely by Ramakant Maharaj, but he is a Master of this lineage and therefore the Inchegiri Navnath Sampradaya lineage continues. It lives on, whether you like it or not.

Again Chp 97: "The Navnath Sampradaya is only a tradition, way of teaching and practice. It does not denote a level of consciousness. If you accept a Navnath Sampradaya teacher as your Guru, you join his Sampradaya. Usually you receive a token of his grace - a look, a touch, or a word, etc."

You can see from the above, that the continuation of the lineage is an informal one, yet, you ask above "When did Nisargadatta Maharaj authorize Ramakant Maharaj?" And you still have not explained your statement re "Ramakant Maharaj initiating into his own lineage".

Ramakant Maharaj was in the same position as Nisargadatta Maharaj - on your NEW paragraph entitled "Successors" you quote David Godman..."Siddharameshwar told him that he could teach and give out the Guru mantra to anyone who asked for it, but he wasn't allowed to appoint a successor. You have to remember that Nisargadatta wasn't realized himself when Siddharameshwar passed away" Similarly, Ramakant Maharaj was not realized himself when Nisargadatta Maharaj passed in 1981.

Till yesterday, you were making 2 opposing, contradictory claims about Nisargadatta Maharaj:
 * On your Inchegiri page you say: "You have to remember that Nisargadatta wasn't realised himself when Siddharameshwar passed away".
 * On your Nisargadatta page you say: [2] "He was appointed as the spiritual head of the Inchegiri branch of the Navnath Sampradaya, - and even, "a place he retained througout his life" THIS IS FICTION, NO WONDER YOU REMOVED IT YESTERDAY...

So can we establish that Ramakant Maharaj is a living Master who is actively teaching,initiating and continuing the lineage of the Inchegiri Navnath Sampradaya - backed up with source (11) from I Am That? Or, are you trying to reinvent history and for whatever reason close the door to the lineage which is very much alive?

I am not claiming that he is the only one maintaining the line, but he is undeniably one.

I see you have also linked your lineage table. You cannot keep saying black is white, but that is what you are doing, and in order to back it all up I see that you have added numerous new references in the last day or so. You cannot bend the truth! 13:55, 19 September 2014‎ Beyondworldsbeyondwords


 * Hi Beyond. I'm glad you also found chapter 97! I was just going to add those quotes to your talkpage, but you already did, and drew the same conclusions I did. That's good.
 * A few clarifications:
 * [1] and [2] were not my edits; I corrected them. That's why Wikipedia asks for sources;
 * The "Nisargadatta Biography" is by Timothy Conway; it reads like a hagiography. Many experienced editors would discard this source rightaway as unreliable; but alas, it does provide some information;
 * I agree with you that chapter 97 sheads a new light on Godman's statement about the "appointment" of a new guru; it's clear that the continuation of the lineage is quite informal. I like the quotation about the "token". You left out the best part: "sometimes a vivid dream or a strong remembrance"!
 * So, I (also) guess that Ramarkant received such kind of a token, and started initiating, such a long time after Nisargadatta died. That's very plausible, and "legitimate", given Nisargadatta's information (and not exceptional; there are quite some stories on the continuations of the Zen-lineages; even one Soto Zen-master who received dharma-transmission from a Soto-master who had died twenty years before, using a Rinzai-master as "intermediair!)
 * Nevertheless, the only source is Ramakant's website, which says that he was initiated by Nisargaddata, that he stayed with him for 19 years, that he himself is now initiating new students ("disciples", if you like), and that Ramakant is "the only Indian direct disciple of Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj" who offers initiation into this lineage. No information on any "appointment" or "token". So, I think you'll have to leave it there: "according to". Any further conclusions is WP:OR.
 * NB: don't forget to sign your messages with ~ ! Best regards,  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   15:59, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi Joshua, Yes, happy with that... just one point re your lineage table: It is not appropriate to state or even use the term "No current lineage holder" under Nisargadatta Maharaj. "Lineage Holder" is not applicable to this tradition, because as has been brought to light, continuation of the lineage is an informal business, with no official appointments. There can be more than one disciple passing on the teachings and initiating into the Inchegiri Navnath Sampradaya at any time. By stating "no current lineage holder", the implication is that the line ended with Nisargadatta Maharaj. As we know, this is not the case. The line continues and is maintained. Also to say that Maurice Frydman was one who understood etc, maybe does not really belong here. When Nisargadatta Maharaj disciples are looking for a living Master belonging to the same lineage - the Inchegiri Navnath Sampradaya - they are given the wrong information from Wiki.It would be better to leave the box blank - as you have under other Masters. Let's talk! Best Regards, 09:35, 20 September 2014‎ Beyondworldsbeyondwords


 * Hi Beyond. I've adapted the table, given the statements of Nisargadatta. Consequence is that a whole lot of western teachers is also added...
 * NB again: don't forget to sign with ~ . It adds your signature to a message.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   12:03, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi Joshua, I see do these Western teachers appear automatically? There's a difference between a disciple and a teacher and just because you have visited a Master once does not make you a disciple... but that is what seems to happen - using the name of Nisargadatta Maharaj to given them the stamp of approval. Also, there are other 'Indian' disciples who may not be teachers, who deserve a mention to balance the list. E.g S. K. Mullarpattan, was Nisargadatta Maharaj's long-standing disciple and English interpreter. Also Mohan Gaitonde, evening translator of Nisargadatta Maharaj who recently published Nothing is Everything, the Quintessential Teachings of Nisargadatta Maharaj. Then there is also Dinkar Kshirsagar, who attended the Talks with Jean Dunn.Recently Maharaj's talks recorded by Dinkar, were translated from the Marathi language to English for the recent publication 'Meditations with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj'. And there is Maurice Frydman, too. So tricky to select! Even Timothy Conway (who only spent a week with the Master before his passing), calls himself "devotee of the One".... Can you explain how I should end this contribution? you say to end with.... I was not sure what you meant by finish with... can you explain, please? regards or is it {User talk:Beyondworldsbeyondwords}