User talk:BigHaz/Archive 2

Have a barnstar
I hearby award this Working Man's Barnstar to User:BigHaz for his incredible dedication levels in recording Eurovision winners.-- V. Joe 01:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC) (Re-posted from the Archive)

Turkification
Thats great news. Your neutral input to the article would very much appreciated. The article's finally gotten protected, so the time may be ripe.--Kilhan 03:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Off the top of my head...1) Has problems regarding scope. It is simply cultural assimilation or much more? 2) Proclaims some very disputed opinions/events as fact etc. 3) Integration or assimilation? Turkey often gets criticized for trying to "forcibly assimilate" non-Turks whereas people in other countries, say Pakistanis in the Uk, or Lebanese in Australia are often criticized for "not integrating".--Kilhan 04:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I see. I can't say that I'll be much use - even in terms of negotiating a settlement while the page is still protected - but I'll give it a couple of reads when I get the chance and see what might be necessary. If the "disputed opinions/events" refer to the Armenians, though, that could prove very difficult. BigHaz 04:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Re:DYK noms
Hi - I didn't know that - was misguided by haphhazard entries by others. Will keep in mind in future, Thanks, Rama's arrow - this Fire burns always   23:18, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Subheadings
Sorry. Nightscream 23:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Subheadings in AfD debates
I know it makes a lot of sense to do so, but please don't add subheadings to AfD listings as it mucks the entire page up. BigHaz 23:29, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for catching that - I wasn't aware that the discussions actually appear on other pages as well. I'm removing your comments from my talk page now that I've read them, and putting them on my archive page.Michael Dorosh 23:50, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Understood as well. I had thought I'd previously seen a Comments section be utilized, but perhaps it was merely bold text used to divide the page up, or I may have been thinking of the Admin nom pages.  Dunno.  --  Huntster  T • @ • C 08:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Ellipsis
No, not policy at all. I just find it easier to have them there already when I cut and paste to update DYK. Cheers -- Samir  धर्म 12:59, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Note to self, add these ellipses when nominating DYKs for future reference. BigHaz 13:02, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Reply
Thats really sad because it was obviously a n article tailor-made for Turk-bashing. I really wonder what the outcome would have been if it had involved a country other than Turkey. A merge with Human rights in Turkey seems to be the best solution to me. Is another afd the only way to attain the merge or are there any other avenues available?--Kilhan 16:56, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The merge can (as far as I know), be done "manually" without an AfD or anything. It's just a matter of agreeing on where to merge what. A second AfD (or perhaps something faster) may then be required to delete the article itself once all the info is elsewhere. BigHaz 21:59, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Auf Wiedersehen Pet
Blah, I admit the connection is a little tenuous. The connection is that there are both popular culture works about the Gastarbeiter experience. I was fantasizing about a future Category:Gastarbeiter representations in international popular culture in a moment of whimsy. Feel free to remove if you think this is barmy Bwithh 01:59, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Personally I like the idea. It was more curiosity than anything else. If it gets deleted, it won't be my doing. BigHaz 02:33, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the note! glad you like the idea. =) Bwithh 22:00, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

"On a free"
It's a contraction of "free period". Uncle G 11:19, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well there I go. Not sure when I'll ever need it again, but I'm positive it'll come in handy sometime or another. BigHaz 11:25, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

regarding crap cd
mind stating where you get the idea that crap cd is unknown? maybe where u live it is, but out here in Israel it is widely known. next time, be sure before you start dictating other pages —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raanan3000 (talk • contribs)
 * There's no proof anywhere that it's well-known beyond you and your friends. Under those circumstances, it's a page which ought to be deleted. BigHaz 23:25, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Minor edits
Hi there BigHaz. It is quite common to mark cat edits as minor, and I actually do it myself. By the way, I think you should use edit summaries, because they are considered to be widespread courtesy and almost a pre-requisite for a successful WP:RFA, which you may be interested in the future, and shold do well with article contribs, some anti-vandalism and good discussion in AfDs. Thanks, Blnguyen | rant-line 06:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Done deal. I know it's a bad habit of mine not to use edit summaries, but I'll try to remind myself to do it. Can't say as I envy the Admins, though... BigHaz 07:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * About the cats thing, it is correct to remove Category:Eurovision songs because they are already in the more refined subcat, Eurovision songs listed by their country and by year. Thanks, Blnguyen | rant-line 00:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. BigHaz 00:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for not replying yet, but it looks like someone already sorted it out for me :). I just thought the Eurovision songs category was too big, so I decided to subdivide it in a logical way. And I marked the category edits as minor because I thought they're not as important in the context of the article. --Rain74 09:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair enough as an answer. I was a bit hair-triggered about it, since it was mucking up my count of how many song articles existed (since two had been up for AfD and another one had been prodded without my realisation, it kind of made me a bit paranoid). BigHaz 10:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Naked Robber AfD
About your message, my vote was altered by who happens to be the author of the article. If you look at my original vote, I voted Delete. I have corrected my vote and noted the vote fraud. -- Gogo Dodo 07:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Aha. That was absolutely the furthest thing from my mind when I read that listing. Quite the dirty trick. BigHaz 07:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, never had that done to me before. Your message confused me at first. I thought I had mangled my vote.  He just got blocked for 24 hours. -- Gogo Dodo 08:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

DYK
I meant to change the latter mention of Scandanavia to the actual article rather than the disambig it links to now, doh! When you make song suggestions could you please put the "title" in inverted commas. Thanks. --Peta 08:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Will do in future. I've been meaning to, but with all those bolding-quote-marks it slips my mind. BigHaz 08:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Agurbash - my infatuation and obzayshon
Basically a stub is something up to 10 sentences, so I guess if anybody would have issues with that, you can break some of them into two or three (at the expense of style) and you're there. You can also destub it so that nobody notices :D I've seen quite many "songs" of yours DYK'd, and usually their entries aren't much longer, so is this a problem?

Oh, and we of course can stuff more trivialities into the article of course :D I could go for hours about an ESC song, especially sung by an iconic Miss USSR :D Besides, as concerns lyrics and video links, why don't use the fabuluos Template:Infobox ESC entry? :D Bravada, talk - 09:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I wasn't saying it was a problem from my end. Sorry if it sounded like I was being snarky. It was more just an update on the update you'd made. BigHaz 09:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I wasn't saying that either. I was just trying to find a way to fend off possible reasons for "disqualification" of this DYK. Perhaps more info can be added on the selection process in Belarus that year. I also think it is good to add links to lyrics and video clips of ESC songs that go DYK, so that the user's experience can be more rewarding :D As a sidenote, would a screen capture of screamign Angelica qualify as a fair illustration of the article? Bravada, talk - 10:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair enough (although I'm hardly the person to talk to about criticisms of DYK noms - that's an admin thing). As far as the illustrations go, I really don't know. I know there's a lot of hoops to jump through with copyright and so on, and even then someone might argue that it's a better shot for the article on Angelica herself, rather than the song. If you can't make head or tail of the policy - I tried once and gave up - I'd get in touch with User:Blnguyen, who's both an admin and an ESC fan. If he doesn't know what's what, I don't think anyone does. BigHaz 10:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I have actually asked at the source (User:Petaholmes), though now that I have checked his WikiActivity patterns, I am afraid he might have gone offline now and won't answer until late in the night CET... Anyway, I have dumped some more stuff into the article, perhaps some copyediting/formatting might be advisable :D Bravada, talk - 11:13, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * PS. Quite against the sentence count increasing efforts, I was thinking whether the "was preceded by/was followed by" statements wouldn't be better expressed by succession tables...
 * Succession tables are the long-term plan as I see it, but it strikes me as being a better course of action to do up the entire matrix of songs so that all the links will go to the right places first, then add tables where appropriate. My current leaning, though, is to do a succession for the country's entries (so "Run & Hide" gets one to "No No Never" and so on), and leave the eventually-reorganised competition tables (which will eventually be in competition order rather than alphabetical) as a competition order thing. It's a big job, but there are 400+ entries already done, so we're close to half way already. BigHaz 12:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Barbara
Damn it, you're right! I can't find any screen grab or any other pic for that matter other than the one from the Diggiloo Thrush, but it has been Thrushed and therefore can't be used :( Even the wondrous TV & Radio Bits did not find Iemand Als Jij a highlight of the evening and chose to show some other folks... On the other hand, if you'd ask me, the dress is not inexplicably awful, it's just a quite poor choice for the occassion and completely forgettable (I myself keep forgetting how Dex looked like, mostly because she doesn't resemble herself from 1993 now). There are quite many bigger offenders I can think of, but I guess Barbara was chosen because "Barbara Dex Award" sounds so good (unlike "Sonja Lumme Award" for example).

OK now, there's still some time, perhaps some Eurovision magician can dig out a pic - I do not have any contacts in these circles, but perhaps you have, or our indespensible Chris? BTW, you are an ESC fan from Australia, aren't you? Quite interesting! Does anybody broadcast the contest live in the OZ? Oh, and use the darn infobox. Regards, Bravada, talk - 10:10, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * SBS broadcasts ESC delayed (it might actually broadcast it live at sort of 5:30 in the morning my time, but I watch it as a delayed telecast about 7:30 in the evening) here in Oz, which isn't the greatest since it means I need to avoid the internet all day before the semi and the final, but at least I get to see it. I intend to move to Europe one day, which will have the added benefit of getting me into the right timezone. Video-wise, I've just done another search on Youtube and still nothing. Oh well, if it doesn't get DYK'd it's not the end of the world I guess. Would be a nice one to see, but the fates may be against it. BigHaz 10:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, and I was actually considering moving to Australia, so we might swap :D Anyway, waiting a whole day for the ESC is quite terrible. I wonder why does SBS actually bother - is it a big thing in the OZ? Do people have their favorite countries, are ESC stars popular? BTW, Iemand Als Jij is of course to be found on YouTube, thanks to the equally indispensible Sims. The problem is that, when uploading a bunch of songs from a given year, Sims sometimes doesn't bother with listing every contestant's stage name and song title, so you have to search for e.g. "Belgium 1993". Ok, here comes Barbara - (not that it would help, but you can link to the clip from the template :D ). Bravada, talk - 10:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Brilliant! I thought I'd tried everything on Youtube, but it's amazing what can sneak in under the radar like that. I think the reason that SBS broadcasts ESC at all is that there are large numbers of expats and immigrants from the competing countries. You only need to look at our World Cup squad to count all the Croatian-Australians for one thing, then there are all the Greeks and Turks in Melbourne, Brits everywhere, Germans (such as yours truly going back a bit), Swiss, French and so on. As I understand SBS's mission, it exists purely to bring culture from the "old country" to Australia, wherever that old country may be. As for why the delay, I guess it's because they can't rely on all of their big programs to be broadcast live from Europe. The World Cup went down well at midnight at 5AM this year, but I think the ESC fan is usually a different beast. BigHaz 11:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi, BigHaz. Thanks for your message. So.. did you manage to do a video grab of that YouTube recording? Unfortunately I don't have my Eurovision tapes with me right now: they're in storage in another location. If I had my 1993 tape then I'd be able to get a good picture of Barbara with no problems. Let me know if you're still looking for one, and I might be able to help at a later date, when I dig out the video. EuroSong talk 16:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The Youtube video's currently linked from the article, although you're more than welcome to upload another version somewhere - particularly if you think the picture or audio quality is better. BigHaz 23:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Autostop
Yet another DYK! You're really coming up with little gems of articles. Cheers -- Samir  धर्म 21:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Personally, I blame the Contest... :P BigHaz 23:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * OMG, some really duff DYK was created by accident. "Do you know that the song 'Autostop' is about hitchhiking?" No, I thought it was about lemon mousse... The whole thing got lost along the way with one small word...
 * Anyway, I am here to inform you that to quickly and effortlessly put the infobox in every song page you create, you just need to keep this page open in a separate browser window/tag and do copy/pastes. Filling it up takes up to staggering 30 seconds! I'll try to infoboxify whatever is up fror DYK now, but please do consider doing it while creating articles, it is so much easier that way! Bravada, talk - 23:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Roger that. I'll hit Samir up to edit the DYK if he sees fit (although, "Autostop" as a word doesn't scream "hitchhiking" to the English speaker). BigHaz 23:26, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I already have done that, but now you made me realize I wasn't thinking much. Accidentally, autostop is exactly the same word in Greek and Polish and that is why I didn't realize it's not necessairly the case in all other languages... On the other hand, just at the beginning of the hitchhiking article it mentions "autostop" as a common word for this practice, so if any of the readers is familiar with the word, he or she probably won't be overly surprised by the song's theme... Bravada, talk - 23:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Just as a quick point, though, the appearance of both Vissis wasn't in my original nomination. While it's notable in an ESC-specific sense, the fact that probably grabs people who aren't interested in the Contest at all is the fact that it's about hitchhiking. BigHaz 23:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I think it is interesting that two sisters represented two different countries multiple times. I am not that much into, say, athletics, but I would click on a DYK that would mention two sisters representing two different countries on multiple occassions, sometimes together and sometimes not, or any combinations of such facts. I wouldn't click on "xxx is a movie about hitchhiking" or something - I guess only die-hard hitchhiking fans would. Bravada, talk - 23:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * PS. Oh, and didn't you just change the Antique DYK nomination to a similar factoid?


 * In retrospect, perhaps the Vissi-double-act would have been the more impressive fact, but I made the nomination in a hurry earlier this week and wasn't really thinking too clearly. That said, Wir Geben 'Ne Party got frontpaged because of the mention of hip-hop culture, so perhaps it's the sort of thing that someone might go for. And yes, I've changed the (I Would) Die For You nomination per your suggestion on the talk page. That was another one where the wording was written in a hurry, and in the cold light of day it actually made loads more sense your way. BigHaz 23:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I had no idea autostop was synonymous with hitchhiking. Taglines been fixed. -- Samir   धर्म 00:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Cheers. BigHaz 00:54, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Muhammadiyah
Nice copyedit that made it Main Page worthy. Cheers -- Samir  धर्म 07:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Holy smoke. This is getting rather embarrassing :P BigHaz 07:54, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding "Before I inadvertently do something stupid"
Hello BigHaz. I have solved your problem. Please see my explanation on Samir's talk page. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 09:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't worry about making messes here. That is the wiki way of doing things. In fact, I made a big mess while welcoming a new user yesterday. As Tyrenius told me later on "Statistically I think the people who make the most mistakes will be the people who do the most work". Keep up the great work. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 10:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You may be onto something there. BigHaz 10:03, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I found out what the problem was with your step 3 after some testing in my sandbox. In step 1 at the main article if you use second, it results in the page Articles for deletion/PageName (second nomination) . Using 2nd results in Articles for deletion/PageName (2nd nomination) . But in step 3, the guide says "If you used template instead of , use "PageName (2nd nomination)" instead of "PageName" for a second nomination" . This is not correct. You must use "PageName (2nd nomination)" if you have used 2nd and "PageName (second nomination)" if you have used second in step 1. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 10:21, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

(reset indent)I have left a comment here and here. Hope no one else faces the same problem. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 10:40, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

You know, it never hurts to know that it's the system causing you to make mistakes as against you messing up on your own. That would also explain, though, why a handful of other second nominations have sometimes started life on AfD in funny forms. BigHaz 12:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Infobox
Happy to hear that! Though I've just found a bug after I suggested using it to you, and the instuctions on the talk page were incomplete - so this was a good occassion to brush it up :D I have also spiced up Sakis a bit to make for a better DYK(e?) Anyway, my suggestion is to slightly rearrange the pattern you use in describing songs, to avoid short, one-sentence parapagraph which then make the layout look rather jagged.

After the "definition sentence" ("Lalala was a song performed by the Diggiloo Thrush...") I would proceed to discuss the song itself, as the article is about it actually. Then some notes about the performance (still important), and only then technical details as to which song preceded it etc. etc. as this is not the core topic of the article, is it? Besides, this sections will probably be replaced by templates in due course, won't they?

As concerns you concerns :D regarding the fact that the factoid does not pertain to the song but to the singer, just look how some (successful) DYKes were constructed - they also were about some other topic, only mentioned in the highlighted article, but the thing is to generate and INTERESTING DYK, ain't it? Can't wait for you moving on to doing Austria :D :D :D Bravada, talk - 12:14, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * All very good ideas indeed and almost certain to be acted upon in my next update of songs (I did Austria a while back, I'm afraid - retrospectively there are at least three good DYKs in Boom Boom Boomerang, Du Bist and Weil Der Mensch Zählt, but I didn't know what the system was at the time and those articles are too old to qualify now). And you're right about Sakis VS his song, too. I've always tried to be a bit more scrupulous where those sorts of things are concerned, but I guess when it comes down to it, it's all about getting the thing on the front page! BigHaz 12:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh no no, not those - you missed a real gem, but I have dug it out and submitted it :D I missed your having done Austria because you don't list countries alphabetically on your user page :D I am also thinking about expaning submitting the Mess entry - but this can wait :D Bravada, talk - 13:23, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * They fetched up being alphabetical after I'd done most/all of the countries who made debuts in either 2004 or 2005, which were sort of dry-runs to see what information needed to be there, what information was readily available and how the whole thing looked when it was written up. BigHaz 22:56, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Greece in Eurovision
BigHaz,

Firstly apologies for any bad feeling caused by my corrections to the Greek Eurovision page! I agree, diggiloo is a good source of information and translating from one alphabet to another often brings about differing opinions. However, I do think you should credit the singers in full e.g. M. Zorba did not compete in the Eurovision - Mariana Zorba did. Also, if you check with valid and long-standing Eurovision websites such as ESC Today, National Finals website or any of the OGAE sites, you will see that there is a standard form used for Greek titles in the Roman alphabet e.g. Olou tou kosmou i elpida. You can also check this out at the EBU's website. Hope this info is of use!Blanche Hunt 12:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * As far as crediting the singers in full, I agree totally. When I get a spare moment, I'll fiddle their names around so that they're in full and (above all) accurate. If I could've reverted the edit without overriding the full names, I would've. Where the song titles are concerned, you may also be right. What I'm going on, though, is that particular site just for speed reasons (there are all kinds of alternate titles around - with question marks, without question marks, with brackets, without brackets, occasionally flat-out in other languages, the National Finals site is frequently inconsistent for a start). Ultimately, it's probably going to be worthwhile to get a native Greek-speaker to check the transliteration for Greece and Cyprus and move/copyedit pages accordingly - and probably the same will go for the Cyrillic-using countries. The thing is, though, that the articles already exist with the the particular spelling used on that page. BigHaz 22:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)