User talk:Bignole/Archive/2016/January

Template:Arrowverse
Back in October there was a discussion at Template talk:Arrow (TV series) and there seemed to be agreement that we should hold off creating Arrowverse, but I notice that it has been created and content has been moved to it from Arrow (TV series). I was wondering what your thoughts on this were. Personally I don't think we need two stubby templates. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 14:46, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't see how it should have been moved in the first place. Nothing has changed between now and 2 months ago. We have confirmation on a name for the universe, but there still isn't any significant coverage. An editor took it upon themselves to move it because there are "4 series" in existence.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  17:17, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I've also left the same question on 's talk page. His response is that we should have just one template at Arrowverse. Perhaps we should restart the discussion at the template? -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 18:40, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
 * One template should exist: if the Arrowverse page stays in the mainspace, it should be Arrowverse. If it doesn't stay in the mainspace, it should go back to Arrow (TV series). Both, as it was for a bit, were redundant. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:49, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Finally watched Arrow (TV series), and am all caught up
I meant to tell you this days ago, but I finally watched Arrow; I like it, but I preferred seasons 1 and 2 to seasons 3 and 4 (yeah, I know that season 4 is still going on); I think this is mainly because seasons 1 and 2 were grittier and more realistic, instead of including so much sci-fi and/or fantasy. I'm used to sci-fi on The Flash, but it wasn't as common on Arrow. It seems that the cross-over episodes pushed Arrow into being more sci-fi and fantasy. I'm not familiar with the comics, which likely deal with a lot of sci-fi and fantasy. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:32, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Seasons 2 and 1 are pinnacles for the series in the eyes of many fans (mine included). Season 3 just didn't have the same touch, and tried to do too much or not enough when it counted. As for this season, it has gotten better, but then again, it had to fix itself from last season, so it's still hitting its stride. As for the comics, just generally, Green Arrow is more your grounded hero a la Batman, but he was still a member of the Justice League (and was/is good friends with Hal Jordan) so the sci-fi elements do pop up here and there. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 05:39, 3 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks for commenting, and for the comic information; I've seen Arrow/Oliver compared to Batman/Bruce Wayne before. I agree about the quality of the seasons. I also saw a lot of people citing the Oliver and Felicity romance as one of the main reasons, if not the main reason, for the downgrade in the quality of season 3; see this "Olicity needs to die" Google search, for example. I know that a lot fans disliked Laurel, and that enough still do, but she never bothered me...much. And given how the writers have written Felicity as though she's the love of Oliver's life, it has some viewers wondering how the writers can ever make Oliver and Laurel endgame. I'm also wondering where there is left for Detective Lance to go in the storyline. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:55, 3 January 2016 (UTC)


 * To me, each season is standing on its own. Season one is by far the grittiest comic book show on primetime that I've seen. It's hard as nails and hits all the right notes. Season two is fast paced, and never seems to let up. Just when you think it does, bam it hits you hard in the face. Season three, was slow out the gate. They created a bigger problem for Oliver, one that was virtually impossible to win and put him in a position that he had to do things he did not want to. I think part of that was the need to keep up with The Flash, which is why the flashback episodes suffered the most last season. I still enjoy the season and the Olicity stuff never bothered me. I like her character better than Laurel, and they don't have to end up together. Their relationship is not as famous as say Clark and Lois. They were on and off again, married, divorced, etc. I'm enjoying this season and the crossover episodes are usually my favorite. You get to see a bleeding of motifs across each series (Flash getting grittier for an episode, Arrow getting funnier). I still think the flashbacks are struggling, but not as much as last season. The thing they had going for them for the first two seasons was that the flashbacks not only tied into the present, but carried a clear story by themselves. Season three didn't at all, and this season is kind of unclear at the moment.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  06:18, 3 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree with you Bignole about the flashbacks. They have really lacked the past few seasons, sometimes only appearing for 30 seconds. And, as you said, they don't tie as well in the present, and hardly carry themselves since they are so infrequent. I was originally for Olicity, but now I'm kind of tired of it, and what Felicity has become as a character, so I'm hoping she's in the grave (but highly doubt it). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:33, 3 January 2016 (UTC)


 * What?! No...lol. I don't want her in the grave. I was hoping that he was just visiting his parents, but it's clearly freshly dug. I'm still hoping it's not her, because Barry wasn't all that visibly upset when he arrived. They were pretty close too. The flashbacks have been a little better this year, but season two's flashbacks were really good IMO. You got to see the degradation of his relationship with Slade, while the present you got to see where it ends. It made it more bitter sweet.    BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  18:47, 3 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I guess I've just gotten my fix of Olicity and Felicity at this point haha. Her characterization is like up to the extremes from when she was first introduced. I enjoyed it and her, but it's just gotten grating to me at this point. And conversely, I don't have any issue with Laurel, and wish the show would give her more time and things to do. But I do agree that it probably isn't Felicity because Barry would have been more upset and would not have missed the funeral. Season 2 flashbacks were the best, and I've been enjoying this season's, if we would just get more of them. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:00, 3 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I feel like it could actually be Diggle. I could see him going after Darhk and getting killed. That could explain the non-chalant way Barry apologizes for missing the funeral. I agree that Laurel needs more. I don't think that she needs to be with Oliver for that to happen. We do need more in the flashbacks, and we need a clearer picture of what they are doing. Season one and two were fairly clear, especially two, with what was going on. Season three was all over the place and didn't make sense. This seems to be pointing to more mystical stuff on the island, but it's vague right now and not setting up any clear stakes for Oliver.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  19:12, 3 January 2016 (UTC)


 * You stated, "Season one is by far the grittiest comic book show on primetime that I've seen." What about Daredevil or Jessica Jones? How about you, Favre1fan93? I haven't yet watched Daredevil, but I have started watching Jessica Jones (currently on episode 9); it's the grittiest comic book show I've seen so far, and I like it. Arrow was the grittiest to me before that. I completely agree about the "Flash getting grittier for an episode, Arrow getting funnier" aspect. John Campea made a point (see, for example, this Collider video, starting at 23:01) about the Flash killing this season while the Arrow has backed away from killing. As for whether that's Felicity in the grave or not, I think it's too predictable if it's her; but this would allow the writers to more easily transition to an Oliver and Laurel romance. In my opinion, though, doing it that way still speaks to Felicity being the love of Oliver's life; I state that because it would seem like he's only settling for Laurel. I don't want the person in the grave to be Thea; like this TVLine source, page 2, states, "Oliver needs at least one surviving family member!"


 * And speaking of Slade, his "you killed Shado" mantra always irritated me; I don't feel that Oliver chose at all, which is why I also hate when Oliver acts like Slade is correct that he chose. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:25, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't have Netflix and they haven't released it on DVD yet, but that's why I said "primetime". :D I specifically removed them because Netflix also has a greater advantage of being able to push the line more. Like a show being on HBO or something. For a show on TheCW, it's by far grittier than any other comic book show on the more major, adult oriented networks like ABC, CBS, or FOX.

I agree that he needs some family members left, but to be fair, Thea is also a character created for the show. So, technically, she, Diggle, and Felicity are all easy to kill off for that reason. I think it's accurate that if they kill Felicity and he eventually gets with Laurel, it will be a settling of relationships.

I can see that about Slade. It initially irritated me, until you think that Slade's mind was already being affected by the Mirakuru. So, he wasn't thinking straight and couldn't actually see what was going on. Couple that with his already growing jealousy of Oliver and Shado's growing relationship (she was his unrequited love), then it makes sense. As for Oliver, that to me makes sense from his perspective. He thinks he merely should have sacrificed himself, not picked one of them. He was in a damned if you do, or damned if you don't position. Plus, I think he was hoping that accepting responsibility would persuade Slade to stop.  BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  02:04, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Bignole, despite not having Netflix, I hope you've been able to check out Daredevil and Jessica Jones someway (now or if they ever come to DVD). Definitely very good television, and yes, some of the grittiest "darkest"-themed material out of any superhero shows. But for primetime shows, Arrow was some of the grittiest when it started. Back to your response above Flyer's, I do agree on the flashbacks that they're going mystical some how, but again, we haven't seen enough to know what they're going towards for it to be worthwhile now. And we still have to somehow end up with "hermit" Ollie that we saw at the very start of S1E1 by the end of next season. Diggle is a good guess, given he doesn't have much of a relationship with Barry, he was created for the show, and really, his purpose (as originally created) has run its course. But I do enjoy him and the other mindset he provides Oliver, so I hope it isn't him. And it would be too much to leave Oliver family-less, so I doubt Thea too. So that doesn't really leave many people. Maybe the mother of his son, seeing has how he established some rekindling with her in the crossover this year? Barry would know about her, so that would justify him coming, but not necessarily a priority to come to the funeral. But that would seem a bit forced, that Oliver would have all of this emotion so quickly based on how he was in that scene. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 05:18, 4 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Bignole, yeah, I noticed that you stated "primetime"; I occasionally forget that Netflix is a different entity, meaning separate from standard television viewing. Most people I've talked to online about Jessica Jones simply watched it for free online. Good on you for not giving in to such temptation. Or maybe it's just that you'd prefer to watch the show on a big screen.


 * I see what you mean about Thea.


 * Going back to Slade, I understand all of that, but one would think that since the stuff is out of his system, he can think clearly now. Maybe the way it messed up his thinking is permanent. And I mean the reason that Oliver didn't choose Sara is because he panicked in that moment when the gun was pointed at Sara's head; he rushed in front of her when it seemed like she would certainly be shot. Surely he would have done the same had the gun been pointed at Shado's head instead in that way.


 * Favre1fan93, yeah, the guessing game as to who is in the grave is why I linked to that TVLine source above. I wouldn't buy that Oliver is so emotional over the mother of his child (that phrasing sounds bad, but you know what I mean); yes, they had a connection when he was younger, but it seems she was more of a fling he sort of cared about. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:32, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Something else that I meant to state is that I can't take death on the show seriously anymore. Moira's death, for example, got to me. And, hey, I liked Moira. But now people just come back from the dead, or presumed dead, left and right on the show. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:52, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * It's the Lazarus Pit....lol. Plus, only Sara has really done that. Thea wasn't dead.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  14:41, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Which is now destroyed until they maybe encounter it on Legends. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:21, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I wasn't just talking about the one's that actually died, though; that's why I mentioned "presumed dead." You know, the Merlin variety, Felicity's former boyfriend variety...and Diggle's brother variety. Felicity made a joke at some point about how people can't stay dead on the show, and I like when the show pokes fun at itself in such ways. I was glad that the Lazarus Pit was destroyed, since I figured it was going to be used to bring someone back from the dead all the time, which would be the easy way out. I think the writers know that death should have some finality on the show. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:52, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * You have a guy that run back in time and alter it...there are no finalities anymore. :)   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  01:18, 13 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Um....called it.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  02:43, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes you did! (But frankly marketing and the internet [gasp] spoiled it recently too.) I just have no clue now who it could be. Diggle does and does not fit, but beyond him, I don't know. Thea? That would just be such a blow. I just hope whoever it is, the writers build it up well. And we see it in like episode 18, to have the last four be the big conclusion. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 06:17, 21 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Just throwing this out there, again based on people's reactions...if it's not Diggle or Thea, which are likely choices, I'm going to go with Felicity's mother. Viable option with her increased screen time. She's a fan favorite already. Would be devastating to Felicity, sort of to Oliver but only on behalf of Felicity. or Lyla...that's another. This allows for a big death of a character we have established, without the loss of a main cast member. I'm also thinking that Felicity's paraplegia isn't going to be permanent.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  13:01, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
 * True of Momma Smoak. Barry would want to attend so that checks out, even if he never met her. And Oliver would probably be super upset that she got caught in these crosshairs. We also don't even know if it is Dahrk who did it. They are only saying "him", and the producers are mum on the subject. Also, did you notice when they were in the limo, Felicity didn't have her ring on? Also believe Felicity will get better, to some extent, at some point. We've had full resurrections now, so the threat of injury just doesn't hold the same weight anymore. They'll find a way somehow to fix it. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:11, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I did notice that she didn't have the ring on. It'll be curious what would prompt her to end the engagement (assuming it's her) and change her tune on killing someone. I mean, she was still against Oliver getting revenge for Sara's death (before we knew who did it), so to me it would have to be either Diggle or her mother (and she seemed more broken up about it than him). Also, we have Ray's nanotech, which healed him and could theoretically heal her as well. There is a scene in the future episodes that looks like she is standing.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  18:34, 21 January 2016 (UTC)


 * As soon as as I saw you state "Um....called it.", I was reminded of the show's return and knew I had to watch that episode before reading more of this section. I am confused about what you were right about, though. That it wasn't Felicity? As for who's in the grave, it would seem that it's Diggle, given how upset Felicity was. But then again, it's probably too easy to state that it's Diggle. If it's Felicity's mom, I would expect Felicity to be even more upset than that...unless all of her extra upset behavior happened before the point we see her in the limo. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:40, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes...lol, I was tooting my horn on it not being her. I can see John simply because he no longer has a purpose on the show. He used to be Oliver's moral compass, but Oliver's kind of gotten his own now. Felicity's mom is another likely because of her increased screen time. There's no real reason for her to be a love interest for Lance except that she was a fan favorite and it would devastate multiple characters if she's killed.  BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  08:51, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
 * {http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/arrow-death-examining-clues-from-midseason-premiere This article] sum up our thoughts perfectly on the matter (outside of Laurel). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:54, 23 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Sorry that I just now read your latest posts (the both of your posts). I've been busy with Wikipedia stuff; you know how it is. Bignole, by "Oliver's kind of gotten his own now," you mean that Oliver is his own moral compass or that Felicity is? Favre1fan93, thanks for the link; I'll be sure to read that article. First, I'll watch the latest episode. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:07, 30 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm saying that Oliver has gotten become his own moral compass. He pushes the boundary at times, but he's learned how to a better man and hero to the city. Diggle did that for him in the first two seasons, but it's not needed anymore for Diggle.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  02:37, 30 January 2016 (UTC)