User talk:Blechnic/ANI paste

Editor Wilhelmina Will's no holds barred DYK race -- I propose a temporary ban for her
User:Wilhelmina Will has resorted to personal attacks in edit summaries, for which she has been warned on her talk page, and to reverting substantive edits in articles in order to obtain the correct number of words for DYK.

Apparently she feels so secure in doing this that she is willing to admit that is her sole purpose for reverting. I posted before on AN/I about her plagiarizing articles, and talked to her about it, but she did not respond other than to warn me away from her and admit she didn't understand what she had copied.

This editors reason for being at Wikipedia appears not to be to write articles, but rather to get the DYK medals (I still can't believe this is a community issue that people would destroy the encyclopedia's reputation for an anonymous award in cyberspace).

Based on this I have asked that the Mesodermochelys article be removed from candidates for DYK.

She admits she is editing solely for the purpose of the number of words to get the article on DYK to get an award. She plagiarizes but isn't bother about it. The Mesodermochelys article has had to have almost every sentence reworded due to Wilhelmina Will's inability to read scientific articles accurately.

Is this what Wikipedia should be featuring on its main page? I don't think so. I think the main page needs a break from Wilhelminia. --Blechnic (talk) 04:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Since the DYK criteria are much stricter than the criteria for inclusion, an editor whose entire purpose is to create articles for DYK and rack up "medals" wouldn't seem to be bad on face. I can't speak to the specific problems this editor is generating but the underlying act should not be suspect in any way. Protonk (talk) 05:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Willing to edit war, revert edits that increased accuracy and clarity in order to have the right number of words, and calling another editor "revolting" are fine by you if used for DYK, then? Ugh.  --Blechnic (talk)
 * (ec) Oh please, Protonk, you seriously think that adding pointless verbiage to an article just to jack up its word count for DYK (which she admits doing - follow Blechnic's links) is serious, useful, appropriate editing? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Like I said, I don't know anything about the specific actions the editor in question has done. I'm just contending the general premise of this statement "This editors reason for being at Wikipedia appears not to be to write articles, but rather to get the DYK medals (I still can't believe this is a community issue that people would destroy the encyclopedia's reputation for an anonymous award in cyberspace)...She admits she is editing solely for the purpose of the number of words to get the article on DYK to get an award."  Protonk (talk) 05:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * She certainly did edit war for the purpose of the number of words for DYK: "My reason is to keep the main body of this article above 1500 bytes. Firsfron of Ronchester  05:49, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * then the problem is the edit warring, not the motivation. the solution (DYK topic ban) is a unique and probably helpful one.  I'm just defending the notion that an editor may edit to only contribute to DYK.  If we had a (hypothetical) editor that did so without introducing factual innacuriacies, without edit warring and without plagarising, we would lavish them with praise.  the underlying motive isn't the problem here, though it is probably key to the solution. Protonk (talk) 19:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * (ec) Perhaps something like a topic ban? No further DYK submissions from Wilhelmina until the community decides to lift the ban? If that's all she's here for, she's not doing the encyclopedia any favors. (Disclaimer: I have not evaluated Blechnic's post on the merits, but if his factual claims are accurate - which I have no reason to doubt - some kind of a circuit breaker ought to be tripped) (Another disclaimer:I am not an admin) --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's what I suggest, no DYK submissions or credits for Wilhelmina. I'm more concerned now, after working on this latest article, about her accuracy.  She clearly does not understand extinct organisms--what she is currently writing about.  --Blechnic (talk) 05:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * (ec) Perhaps the stated DYK criteria are stricter than the criteria for inclusion, but in practice, an editor can plagiarize an article from another source and have it included in DYK--then we have a big fat copyvio linked from the main page. Wilhelmina Will's behavior is sufficiently problematic that I think she (?) should be given a temporary time-out from DYK--there are credible concerns of plagiarism, and the personal attacks aren't helping. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It is a shame - there are oodles of straightforward stubs (especially in geography and botnay) just itching to be expanded out there without having to get mired in technical detail. I note Fritzpoll has offered to mentor, which may be constructive (?) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:14, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * No, I don't think any kind of ban is the answer. Wilhelmina, though a little unorthodox, is a quality contributor; we should not be persecuting her for adding new content. Further, I see little difference in the diffs you've presented, Blechnic; there is no need to go searching for a conflict merely because you dislike a user. I see no inherent problem with trying to get a lot of DYK medals; the end result is lots of high-quality articles for the project. Glass  Cobra  05:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't dislike or like her. Her contributions are not quality, most I've seen are copyvios or wrong.  Her science is really bad.  --Blechnic (talk) 05:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There certainly was no reason to revert just to get the article up to the correct size. More can be added to the article, if that's the only DYK concern. The personal attacks while reverting to the ever-so-slightly longer version are problematic. Not to mention the factual accuracy of DYKs "extended" in this manner. Firsfron of Ronchester  05:18, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * GlassCobra, follow Blechnic's links, look at her edit summaries and talk page comments. Wilhelmina clearly admits that she's making changes for the sole purpose of jacking up the article's word count just to fulfill her "dream of having made 5000 DYK articles". That is just not on. A DYK ban is the least disruptive way of dealing with this. She could still edit the rest of the encyclopedia to her heart's content, but her incentive to commit copyvio's and insert useless verbiage would be gone. And the ban could be lifted as soon as she sees the light about her conduct. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * After looking at the history of Mesodermochelys, I agree that there are problems with Wilhelmina Will's conduct. But can someone point me to a diff illustrating the copyvio/plagiarism issues that people are talking about above?  Sandstein   05:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That was another AN/I, not this one. She copied a few phrases for this that should be, in my opinion, in quotes, but the article has mostly been entirely rewritten at this stage.  I'll see if I can find a link to the other AN/I.--Blechnic (talk) 05:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's a link to at least most of the discussion. I think her latest response to this AN/I thread will pretty much say it all, along with her calling me a "revolting" editor in her edit summaries while reverting substantive edits to keep the number of words high enough for DYK.  She didn't respond to the first AN/I, and her initial response to me expressing concern about her copyvios, as I noted above, was to warn me to never "cross paths with her again."  --Blechnic (talk) 06:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, let's start a tally, then:


 * Support DYK ban for Wilhelmina at least until she tells us she understands and is willing to abide by copyvio rules and stop treating DYK medals as an end in themselves.--Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Until editor gets her act together and accuracy is part of it. --Blechnic (talk) 05:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Based not only on the attacks in the edit summaries, but even moreso the reversions to simply keep it at the right technical length (versus actually improving the article), I support a decent-length topic ban from DYK for WW. S. Dean Jameson 05:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Per Dean Jameson's reasons (personal attacks in edit summaries, accuracy issues, edit wars based on article length for DYK), I think I'd also support a temporary DYK ban for WW. Firsfron of Ronchester  05:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Support DYK ban for Wilhelmina until she clearly starts producing accurate quality articles and shows more civility. (I also think that DYK encourages this sort of thing, earlier this year I found and dealt with multiple issues of copyvio from an editor collecting DYKs). Doug Weller (talk) 06:18, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Mesodermochelys isn't the only palaeo article created by her that has been a problem. I've made to make major changes to Mystriosuchus and Corsochelys to make them in anyway accurate. In addition, many of the palaeo articles created by her lack any information altogether (see her sea turtle creations). She seems to be trying to increase the number of articles out of the article request process, which is commendable; however all her palaeo article either are lacking in information or have serious accuracy issues and some copyvios. Mark t young (talk) 10:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose - everytime Wilhelmina has been brought up here, it seems to be you, Blechnic. Just stop it, okay? Sceptre (talk) 11:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, it seems that Wilhelmina Will may have been brought up on AN/I more than the twice I brought her up ("everytime Wilhelmina has been brought up here" implies a larger number than two including this one). However, I did not bring her up these other times she was brought up here at AN/I.  --Blechnic (talk) 15:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think Blechnic deserves great credit for persistence in refusing to let an unpleasant problem be swept under the carpet. JohnCD (talk) 16:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with JohnCD.ThuranX (talk) 18:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Support -- Crohnie Gal Talk  13:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Support for the short term per Mark T. Young, taking his owrd (and others) on copyvios and inaccurate material. I wonder if the situation could be saved by close monitoring and am opne to the idea. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Support both a DYK ban and a possible overall short term block. As someone who has a few DYKs under the belt, her actions to attempt to rack up more is not only insulting to other DYK editors, but shows a complete lack of full respect for the rules regarding a DYK. In the last AN/I thread, I was ready to give Wilhelmina the benefit of the doubt, but the continuing on going problems and her responses to these issues make me feel that something more needs to be done here. I was suprised the last thread did not result in a block as she seemed to be ignoring all comments and the offer of mentoring to help correct a major issue with the use of copyrighted material, posting of blatantly false information, and the use of herself as a source. -- Collectonian  (talk · contribs) 14:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Support, both a DYK ban, for a couple of months, and a short block for civility violations. Editing Wikipedia should be about improving the encyclopedia, not collecting awards. When someone edits an article with an edit summary indicating that the goal of the edit is simply to increase the word count to the DYK minimum rather than to improve content, this clearly demonstrates problematic and unproductive attitude both to DYK and to Wikipedia in general. Also, the edit summaries in the first two diffs provided by Blechnic are really unacceptable. There is no excuse for deliberately insulting other editors and the fact that the sole purpuse of WW's edits, according to those edit summaries, was to insult Blechnic, makes it even worse. I would think that a short civility block for WW is warranted just for that. Nsk92 (talk) 14:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Support DYK ban as proposed, plus mentoring/adoption if anyone is willing - I seem to remember that someone offered, but I can no longer find that on her talk page. We need to find out whether this editor's undoubted energy and enthusiasm can be channelled towards helping to build an accurate encyclopedia, rather than accumulating number-of-articles-created points and DYK credits. (In view of the amount of trouble it seems to be causing, I wonder whether the whole DYK system is maybe more of a hindrance than a help to WP?) JohnCD (talk) 16:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Support; DYK are not an ends, and savaging articles to make them qualify, quality be damned, is not acceptable. &mdash; Coren (talk) 17:01, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Support civility block, not just topic ban. This bald-faced lie in regards to the personal attack diffs provided by Blechnic is an insult to the entire community. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It is incivil to accuse others of lying. Blechnic's diff's prove that there was a "code" used. However, unless you can prove what that code means, which is impossible, then you are being incivil. I recommend that you strike your inappropriate accusations now. Thank you. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:20, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * "5o 7h8t 1 d0n'7 5e3 th3 n8m3 of 7h87 r3v0l7ing 3d1t0r" is hardly a code. it's Leetspeak. 5 = s 7=t 8=a 0=o. Claiming it's not obvious what she's saying is facetious at best. – xeno  ( talk ) 17:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * And where is the target mentioned in your "translation"? For something to be a personal attack, there needs to be a person. So far, all you have done is prove that Jaysweet has acted incivil by calling someone a liar. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The target (as mentioned in the above discussion) was User:Blechnic. She made the somewhat obvious personal attack three times whilst editing Mesodermochelys (see from between 22.53 yesterday to 00.04 today). Mark t young (talk) 17:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but that is something that is impossible to prove, as "Blechnic" does not appear, and any claim otherwise is a clear contradiction to what was provided. Now, could you please stop attempting to rationalize a clearly incivil accusation as made above, which only provides support that people are here not because they are in the interest of the community. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The fact that she tried to claim that the phrase (whether or not it was a personal attack directed at Blechnic - as it seems to be, since she's using it when undoing his edit) was some reminder to herself justifies Jay's comment. – xeno  ( talk ) 18:01, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, what you don't understand is the difference between "lying" and "mistaking". Calling someone a liar is incivil. Claiming that they were personally attacking someone, i.e. "provided by Blechnic is an insult to the entire community", and their claim that they wont is a lie has nothing to do with what you stated above. This is about her supposed "lying" about attacking Blechnic. This cannot be proven. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No, she lied. She claimed it was her own personal code, when it's been proven beyond any doubt that it was Leetspeak. S. Dean Jameson 18:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * To spell it out, for anyone who hasn't looked up the references: the message was "5o 7h8t 1 d0n'7 5e3 th3 n8m3 of 7h87 r3v0l7ing 3d1t0r", repeated three times in edit summaries, each time immediately following an edit by Blechnic. That is easily read as Leetspeak for "So that I don't see the name of that revolting editor". Wilhelmina claimed it was code for "Reminder: Work on Jamie Howarth's page today." That's the entirely reasonable basis for the accusation of a "bald-faced lie". JohnCD (talk) 18:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No, thats clearly a misrepresentation. She claimed she wasn't attack Blechnic. The previous person said that she was. I pointed out that there is no clear object, and the use of "liar" is a clear violation of Civil: "Ill-considered accusations of impropriety; for instance, calling someone a liar, or accusing him/her of slander or libel." Calling people a liar is not allowable on Wikipedia. It is severely incivil. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The lie was in her trying to claim that the edit summary wasn't an attack on an editor. Whether or not it was an attack on Blechnic is, quite frankly, a red herring. Someone ought collapse this entire argument as such. – xeno  ( talk ) 20:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with collapsing this. It's turning into a theatre of the absurd. Ottava Rima's accusations have spilled over onto several talkpages, and now Ottava Rima has reported me to some etiquette noticeboard for supposed incivility in calling him/her on her baseless accusations. Collapsing this is probably the best idea. S. Dean Jameson 21:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Support DYK topic ban and civility block. Plagarism is unacceptable, as are personal attacks. -MBK004 17:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Support, per all above. – xeno  ( talk ) 17:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * SupportDYK Topic Ban and Civility Block, and civility and plagarism probations. ThuranX (talk) 18:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Support If Blechnic, in return, is warned over lack of AGF ("This editors reason for being at Wikipedia appears not to be to write articles, but rather to get the DYK medals") and told to stop making personal attacks ("The Mesodermochelys article has had to have almost every sentence reworded due to Wilhelmina Will's inability to read scientific articles accurately."). These actions are not beneficial to an encyclopedia, and instead harmful. These actions are escalating actions and result in further problems. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Those don't look like personal attacks to me, but straightforward reporting of the user's behavior.  Corvus cornix  talk  21:06, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Corvus, you cannot have a more clearer situation of a personal attack than saying someone lacks the ability to read accurately. That is clearly an attack on their person. Remember, NPA states at the top: "Comment on content, not on the contributor." This was a clear breach. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, to be fair OR, that is an oversimplification of what Blechnic said - assuming good faith, we can assume that Blechnic was not saying she couldn't read, but couldn't understand the technical details of scientific journals. Not an uncommon problem, even for researchers in the field! :) Fritzpoll (talk) 21:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If I oversimplified "inability to read", then I apologize. However, the language seems to be inappropriate, and this could have been solved by a simple redaction to say there have been problems resulting from her edits that remove the scientific accuracy, instead of blaming her "ability" as the root cause. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * While there may be a case for warning Blechnic, I fail to see why the decision about Wilhelmina Will should be conditioned on some warning to Blechnic. —SlamDiego&#8592;T 21:14, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Because Wikipedia is about preventative, not punitive, and personal attacks cause discontent between users, which will spiral the problem further out of control. The response to incivility is not to be incivil. We need to state the facts of the case, not discuss the attributes of others, and be as objective as possible. Otherwise, problems escalate. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not arguing against a warning for Blechnic. (I have not formed an opinion on that.) I'm asking for why the response to Wilhelmina Will should be conditioned on warning Blechnic. If we simply couldn't communicate with Blechnic (and thus could not make a warning), should we let Wilhelmina Will continue? —SlamDiego&#8592;T 22:23, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah. It just seems like the situation happens around those two interacting, so the solution would have to be based on their mutual interactions. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose any sanctions against Blechnic. That Ottava Rima is agitating so loudly in Wilhelmina WIll's favor, to the point of now creating two separate disruptive off-topic threads is absurd, and I ask that she be warned by an admin, and any further distracting sub-threads be 'rewarded' with a block for disruption of an AN/I thread. It's clear that Ottava is willing to risk his/her reputation, such as it is, to save WW, which is not going to work. As such, the warning would not only be to keep this AN/I focused but to prevent OR from his/her own worst impulses. ThuranX (talk) 02:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thuranx, your comments show short sighteness when it comes to fixing the topic, and ignore the fact that I've dealt with mediation between users quite often, have an extensive background in the DYK topic area, and that I already recommended WW be prevented in the matter. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Support DYK ban until she gives reason to believe that she will adhere to the spirit of DYK when submitting. That would mean no copyvios (taking Mark T Young's word, which I have found to be reliable in the past) and meeting the minimum DYK requirements legitimately, withiut playing games.  I can understand the frustration of falling a few words short and thus rewording things to use a few extra characters and being reverted, but there should be a better way to extend an article that needs extention. Rlendog (talk) 22:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

We seem to be getting off track with all the arguing. There is clear consensus for a preventative DYK ban. However, we need something constructive to assist her with editing articles based upon academic citations. Can I suggest that mentoring is a condition of her DYK ban being recended? Mark t young (talk) 21:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It would be absolutely necessary. I have already made an attempt to talk to her. Based on her response, we will find out if such a thing is possible on her end. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Note - this was posted and there appears to be two DYK regulars who suggest opposes to the above in some form or the other. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The only two "suggested opposes" at DYK are me and Bedford, who raised an alternative to a ban that I agreed to support should WW follow up on it. I will always support anything short of a ban, particularly if the user facing the ban shows an inclination towards working for an alternative solution.  That seems pretty straight-forward.  However, Will has not shown any inclination to anything but continuing to created bad and wrong articles and edit according to her personal desires rather than accuracy.
 * Also DYK users have a link to this discussion and explicit notice of the nature of this discussion should they choose to come here and participate. It is not necessary for anyone to suggest their voices.  Did you post a note at Bedford's talk page to let him know you were speaking here for him here at AN/I, thouhg?   Thank you, also, Ottava Rima, for speaking for me, but I have clearly spoken for myself above.  Please do not speak for me.  --Blechnic (talk) 16:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * PS I did let User:Bedford know that you spoke for him here, as you have not notified him, according to your user talk contributions history. --Blechnic (talk) 16:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * "The only two "suggested opposes" at DYK are me and Bedford" it sure seems like you were opposed in your excessive pursual of this and the extreme lengths you are taking: "I think it is a little excessive. I suggest possibly cooling down a bit. <3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 05:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)". So far, there have been quite a few people questioning your eagerness. Now, you definitely aren't helping your case by acting condescending. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Blechnic is acting "condescending"? I have to say, tu quoque... S. Dean Jameson 02:04, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I suggested that she could no longer self-nom until five of her articles were nominated by others,and later placed on the front page. ANI has proven unreliable, and instead of a mass lynching, it is best if those most knowledgeable about DYK practices meet out a reasonable and fair punishment that does not discourage creativity, but does encourage competent prose.-- Bedford Pray  16:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:OWN doesn't just apply to articles, you know -- or are you suggesting that "outsiders" are incapable of making judgments based on the available evidence? --Calton | Talk 00:23, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Nominations are not limited to regulars in DYK, anyone can nominate. It was my suggestion, originally, that editors at DYK also discuss a solution, simply because editors at DYK and editors monitoring DYK are the DYK community.  There is no door keeping anyone else out, though.  The post is linked above, feel free to drop by and contribute to a solution if you like.  --Blechnic (talk) 04:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Support a topic ban from DYK for a little while. Right now the concerns of plagiarism and the associated drama have reached the point where her continued participation at DYK is harmful. Vickser (talk) 06:30, 31 July 2008 (UTC)