User talk:BostonMA/172

Suspected Original Research, "The modern world's first effort to build socialism"

BostonMA: The current text reads:


 * "In Russia, the modern world's first effort to build socialism or communism on a large scale, following the 1917 October Revolution, led by Lenin's Bolsheviks, raised significant theoretical and practical debates on communism among Marxists themselves."

Statements which attribute actions to "the modern world" are suspect as original research. After 48 hours have elapsed, (and obviously after the article is unlocked), I will edit this sentence, unless someone provides a verifiable source for the sentence or makes a request for more time to locate such a verifiable source.

I will replace it with the following text, unless convinced that another text is superior.


 * "The Russian 1917 October Revolution was the first time any party with an avowedly Marxist orientation, the Bolshevik Party, obtained state power. The assumption of state power by the Bolsheviks generated by a great deal of practical and theoretical debate within the Marxist movement."

(BostonMA 22:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

172: This is just a matter of style, not original research or POV. Once the article. On that note, the style of the sentence should be modified, so as to avoid coming across as giving agency to non-human historical abstractions such as "the modern world." When the article is unprotected, I will change the prose in question to the following "... first effort to build socialism or communism on a large scale in modern history... " Still, there's no reason to make a little style error out to be a bigger deal than it really is. 172 23:49, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

BostonMA: Hi, as far as I am concerned, your version is still suspected original research, and I will expect you to provide some sort of verifiable source.

Also, I disagree that the issue is not one of POV. You take the POV that an attempt was made (by whom? Stalin?) to build socialism. My POV is that Stalin used the political slogan of "buiding socialism" to advance certain ends, but that he did not actually attempt to build socialism, but rather something repulsive to socialism. (BostonMA 00:09, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

172: Fine. Then the sentence can get changed to "... first purported effort to build socialism or communism on a large scale in modern history... " Who is making the claim to be building socialism is obviously the Bolsheviks in this context. 172 00:16, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

BostonMA: Then the date should be changed from the 1917 October Revolution to the 1924 rise of Stalin's power, unless your claim is that the Bolsheviks were purporting to build socialism prior to that date. If that is your claim, I again, would ask for verifiable sources.

172: Huh? Their goal was building socialism before Stalin's rise to power. 172 00:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

BostonMA: Did the Bolhseviks have the goal of building socialism in Russia before Communist parties came to power in the West? I do not believe so. You may have a different opinion, and that would not be uncommon. However, commonly held views are often mistaken, (and in this case I think they are mistaken). That is why I ask for a verifiable source. (BostonMA 01:19, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

172: This point is kind of moot. Both Trotskyites and Stalinists wanted to see the revolution spread to the West, and they expected it to spread. The fact that it would not was revealed to them after the Bolshevik Revolution. Yes, they came to power in 1917 with the goal of building 'socialism' (whatever they claimed that meant to them). No one disputes this. 172 01:32, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

BostonMA: Perhaps it would clarify things for me to tell you that in my opinion, the aim of the Bolshviks prior to 1924 was to build what they referred to as "the dictatorship of the proletariat", which is something quite distinct from socialism/communism. I agree that the Bolsheviks hoped to some day build socialism, but that is not the same as "... first purported effort to build socialism". Do you see? BostonMA

172: Yes, their view of socialism presupposed the dictatorship of the proletariat. But they were confident that the dictatorship of the proletariat would lead to the building of communism and socialism. You are right to maintain that their conceptions of the terms rendered them distinct. But I see no problem with the wording I proposed avove-- for clarity and brevity-- because it makes no reference to sequencing or time horizons. So it just skrits the issue of the discourses within Marxism at the time as to when the building of socialism was to begin. 172 02:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

BostonMA: Your wording does indeed skirt the issue of what the Bolsheviks actually thought and said about their actions. I'm not sure that is a good thing for an article on communism. Clarity and brevity also apply to my wording. I think it is important to stick with the policy of strict accuracy and verifiable sources, because that will help to prevent bias. There is a danger, I think, that the current wording provides support for straw-man arguments against communism. Providing support for straw-man arguments, when one could just as easily be accurate gives the impression of non-NPOV. (BostonMA 02:45, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

172: Not to quibble with your point, I fell compelled to point out that while one can say that the text does not contradict those 'straw-man arguments agaisnt communism,' it does not support those 'straw-man arguments' per se. For a general sourcebook writing an entry on communism, describing Bolshevik rule following the October Revolution as the first attempt in modern history to build socialism on a large scale is a concise and sufficient way of making an important observation. Reference sources like Wikipedia are simply not expected to go into the same level of detail on Marxist discourses on revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat as (say) Encylopedia of Marxism in their entry on communism. As I keep on telling Gibby, while I think your observations are valid, there's only so much material that the general article on communism can cover, with the article being left with a reasonable word count. Meanwhile, there are literally thousands of articles on the English Wikipedia related to communist ideology, Communist parties, Communist regimes, and discourses on Communism that lack editors, desperately needing the kind of attention that has been devoted in the past couple of days to the talk page of this article. In sum, we can get around to better specifying the particular sentence that you're calling into question-- as soon as the article is unprotected; for now, though, we'll have to wait for the matter involving Gibby to be resolved before this article can be unlocked. 172 04:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

BostonMA: One significant POV is that socialism/communism was tried in Russia and failed. Another significant POV, probably a minority, is that that socialism/communism has not been tried. Stating that Russia was the first attempt to build socialism is an explicit denial of the second POV. You repeat your arguments about word count, conciseness, and avoiding detailed Marxist discourse. I think my proposed wording satisfies those concerns. It is short, concise, and does not contain detailed Marxist discourse. (It does break one long sentence into two, but that was a stylistic choice on my part). Your final point is that your proposed text "makes an important observation". The question of bias requires me to ask "who made this observation?". If it is the editor's observation, then it is original research. (BostonMA 12:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

Your final comment suggests that we table this discussion for now. I believe I have made a fair proposal [3] [4] for how to deal with text suspected of original research. You have not yet agreed to that proposal, but you have not made any other proposal for how we ought to procede in a way that avoids edit warring. If you do not feel that we have or can come to a consensus, perhaps we need an outside view to take a look. Please let me know what you think. (BostonMA 13:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC))