User talk:BozoTheScary/Johnjoecavanagh

This is a discussion between BozoTheScary and Johnjoecavanagh.

open message to Johnjoecavanagh
You might have some valid points about the articles you've advocated. You might even have some valid points about the actions of others. Reasonable people make mistaken assumptions and accidentally offend others. These inevitable conflicts are resolved by assuming a certain amount of good faith and communicating and listening and coming to a mutual understanding, but not always agreement.

You make this impossible by aggressively asserting bad faith from the outset and quickly reverting to ad hominem insults. That is simply the vilest thing that you could do in this context, because it destroys all of the implicit trust that exists between strangers and signals you as a person who will resort to irrational rhetoric and bullying to get his way.

If you'd like to resurrect the article or articles that you've advocated, I'd be willing to attempt to help you out with this. However, I will not help if you continue to post insults to others. Also, I am not interested in rehashing your previous or current grievances.

I genuinely look forward to attempting to work with you. I'd love to be able to bring a deleted article back to life. Are you willing to try? –BozoTheScary (talk) 16:04, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

You know Bozo, I don't even care about the article. All I want is to make my peace with Schumin, have a reasonable discussion with him and thats all. But he refuses to let that happen, or to let us talk man to man. 86.40.216.105 (talk) 10:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Then, you are going about it all wrong. You don't invite a discussion with insults or projections of bad faith.  You present Schumin and all of your other chosen "enemies" on Wikipedia with a no-win scenario where the only resolution is to agree that you are right and they are and always were wrong.  As a bonus, they get to endure your insults the entire time because reciprocating would get them banned as well.  Given that choice, the best choice for closure for them is to refuse all contact with you.
 * Those bridges are completely burned to you. There is no hope of recovering even an uneasy peace with them.  If you want closure with them, you're going to have to make it in your own head and move on and try to avoid what went wrong before.  I am offering you an opportunity to move on and try again to make something constructive.  Are you interested?  –BozoTheScary (talk) 13:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Schumin ignored even my first posts which were highly civil. When he refused to respond to these, I decided attacking his appearance and his personality was a more desirable option, because at least I would get that 'gotya' buzz. Unfortunately this tactic hasn't worked. As I said, all I want is closure. I want some recognition from him that what he did at the start was out of order, and that he had some part to play. I also wanted to teach him a lesson; I hate seeing other new users going on to his page and asking why their page was deleted without so much as a mention from him. Its downright rude, and not the way to run an encyclopedia.

And finally, although I love the Wiki dearly (I have a different editor full time, with a different IP who has around 1,000 edits) I believe editors like Schumin (Who don't contribute in a positive way, who whore themselves for adminship and when they get there they interfere in others work and rarely edit anything worthwhile in an informative sense) do Wikipedia a dis-service. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, first and foremost. It is unfair that one geek can be king for the day, ruining the work of other people because he feels like it, or didn't get any girls when he was at school. 86.40.216.105 (talk) 17:25, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Just to note, Johnjoecavanagh has been community banned, so if you feel it's necessary, you can report the IP to AIAV at any time to get it blocked. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 20:41, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Understood. I'm not busy with much else right now, so we're chatting to see if we can come up with something productive.  –BozoTheScary (talk) 21:00, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You did it again. You resorted to personal insults in your last sentence.  When someone cuts you off in traffic and your respond by denting their car, don't hold your breath waiting for an apology.  While they might have committed an unintentional minor offense to you, you chose to reciprocate with a escalated and deliberate offense against them.  They may have been thoughtless, but you acted with malice aforethought.  I recommend again that you abandon attempts to communicate with all of the other users that you've insulted.  You get to have revenge (the 'gotya' buzz) or a possible apology, but you don't get both.
 * So, since your other sock doesn't dare touch any of "your" old articles, I guess that you don't dare try to resurrect "Redboy" with it. What can you tell me about Redboy?  I don't have access to the archive.  Is it some local legend in Monaghan?  I've done some searches and found nothing on the web.  Might there be a book that mentions it?  Did you live in Monaghan or do you know about it secondhand?  –BozoTheScary (talk) 21:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been very busy recently and meant to reply to this sooner.

I have no intention in re-writing it. It will simply be deleted by Schumin. The man has no conscience or no desire to create an encyclopedia. He is in this for the personal kicks. All I want is for him to actually acknowledge my existence and I will go away. I just want to fully discuss our problems, man to man. He started out by ignoring me and by assuming bad faith about me, and he continues to do so. I am a pretty normal bloke, but I especially love getting at bullies. I was a bit of a bully at school, but never the kind that ignored people. Schumin was bullied very badly at school and he takes that out on Wikipedia. The mans a coward, and I don't know why anyone would stick up for him. 86.40.106.103 (talk) 16:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You're looking an awful lot like a hypocrite here. You tell me that you aren't interested in making an article that can withstand scrutiny, then you insult Schuminweb saying that he doesn't want to contribute.  You make some baseless assertions about Schuminweb's intentions and history, and then you cry about him assuming bad faith.
 * Now that Ben Schumin is off limits, what are you going to do next?
 * My offer to help write an article still stands. I am almost completely convinced that you are more invested in "getting back" at Schuminweb for being the unfortunate person to delete an article that desperately needed to be deleted.  Please, prove me wrong.
 * Until I hear from you again, I highly recommend that you watch Ridley Scott's The Duellists. I am curious if you identify with any of the characters. –BozoTheScary (talk) 22:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I trusted you, by the way. Figures you were more interested in sucking up to the buraucracy here than actually fighting for the changes that need to be made for wikipedia to be a viable project. I cancelled my bi-monthly donations to this place after my fued with schumin, and haven't looked back since. You should really approach these subjects with an open mind, rather than appearing to have an open mind and resorting to mockery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.209.14 (talk) 01:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * What were those "changes that need to be made" again? I asked a few times about the changes you wanted made, but I can't seem to find them.  I actually was seriously asking and wanting to help with Wikipedia content, but you were mum on that subject.  Meanwhile, you spent a lot of energy crapping on Schuminweb and creating anti-Schumin sockpuppets and spamming his page with mockery.  I offered to help you, and, in turn, you've tainted my talk page with your personal attacks after I asked you to refrain, tried to enlist me in your vendetta, tried to manipulate me into feeling sorry for deriding your attacks, and insulted me by implying that I'm a suck-up and closed-minded.


 * At this point, I've given up on getting anything for the encyclopedia from you. Now, I'm just here for the show.  I think I know you well enough to know that you won't stop.  You might find one or two new approaches that you think are clever, but you'll just keep posting the same kinds of things, like insulting personal photographs or user page details.  Basically, you'll keep on using other people's openness against them and keep playing the victim card whenever the mood strikes you, usually in an unintentionally ironic context, like above.  You'll continue to be just another dust bunny that we need to sweep up every so often.  See you around.  I'll have my broom handy.  –BozoTheScary (talk) 03:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to respond to this; the changes that needed to be made; and the real reason why I was originally blocked was the Wikipedia deletion policy. I organised a petition that protested against the hastiness of certain users who deleted far too quickly, often when people were in the middle of making their article. This rudeness, and lack of decorum needs to be changed. I have embraced guerrila tactics in order to get some sort of revenge, but it simply doesn't work, and I agree with you on that. I was banned for opposing the hierarchy here, and for no other reason. My actions since then have simply made me look like a troll and vandal - WHICH IS ENTIRELY MY FAULT - and I make no qualms about that. 86.45.215.18 (talk) 18:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow. For the first time, I am very impressed with you.  I am actually proud of you for this personal accounting and am beginning to be able to hear your grievances now that the insults aren't there to clutter them.  We might find some common ground, yet.  See my question below.  –BozoTheScary (talk) 22:27, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Johnjoecavanagh
Please don't feed the trolls... your talk page message on User talk:86.45.215.18 is only giving him the attention that he wants in the first place, fueling further abuse from his camp. SchuminWeb (Talk) 15:09, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Since you are the focus of his stupidity, I will accede to your wishes. Good luck.  –BozoTheScary (talk) 16:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. SchuminWeb (Talk) 18:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Bozo, Schumin has no idea. I assumed you were a reasonable man. I want to SOLVE MY PROBLEMS with him. I have said I am sorry, yet he CONTINUES TO ignore me. This is highly unfair. Bozo, I had legitimate concerns, all I want is to bring this to an end and make my peace. Why won't any of you let this happen? Why do other people constantly fight his fights for him? And most importantly, why doesn't Schumin have the balls to talk to me to my face? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.215.18 (talk) 16:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I offered you a clean slate with me and you soiled it. Schuminweb has earned the goodwill of other contributors just as you have earned your status as a permanently banned vandal.


 * I feel that I must sincerely recommend that you consider that you might need some help. Perhaps print out some of the conversations that you've had here and ask some friends or maybe your doctor or parents review them and give you their opinions.  You are clearly an educated and cognitively functional person, judging by your spelling and grammar and concept flexibility.  Emotionally, however, you don't seem to be sharing the same understanding of what is happening with other people.  –BozoTheScary (talk) 17:12, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Bozo, I have a life. Trying to speak sense to Schumin is just a little side hobby of mine I indulge in from time to time. Do you not have hobbies?

What I would like to see happen is Ben respond to my comment with a fairly reasoned outline of why he believes what he does. If he did that, I would go away. I have went to great lengths to try and reach a compromise, even drafting the help of one of his friends who subsequently stopped emailing me back. And in spite of rebuttals that make you look like a hypocrite, I still choose to believe you are a fair man. You don't know the exact history behind Schumin and me, so don't pretend you do. If you really wanted to give me a fresh slate you would have tried to talk to me like a man; instead, after three responses you denigrated me. I have no beef with you, I only thought someone like you might like to collaborate in trying to bring my fued with Schumin to an end.

How would you reccomend I bring this thing to its rightful end? 86.45.215.18 (talk) 18:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * How would you recommend I bring this thing to its rightful end?
 * That is an excellent question. By my definition of "rightful", I recommend that you work for closure on your own and respect Schuminweb's wishes that you never initiate contact with him ever again.  I also recommend that you examine this pattern of people breaking contact with you.  It is not normal for that to repeatedly happen to a person like that.
 * However, I suspect that your definition of "rightful" involves Schuminweb begging your forgiveness and so on. There is nothing you can do to make this happen.  It is as out of your control as is the orbit of the moon.
 * Can you tell me what you need for closure? Please, please, don't answer with any insults about anybody.  If you can do that, I might be able to work with you. –BozoTheScary (talk) 21:20, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not expecting Schumin to beg for forgiveness. What do I want? I want the worlds first stop shop for knowledge to be more accountible with regards to the select cadre who actually make the decisions around here. Although I understand that I personally will not be able to make that happen, I would like to see Trinity College Dublin be unblocked. They were innocent bystanders in all of this and Schumin has banned the entire university in the mistaken belief that I am a member there. Now that is highly unfair.

As for the whole 'examing myself' aspect of your correspondance, that is unnecessary. I have stressed this is a little hobby and I do lead a normal productive life. And I am not an ass like I am here :-)

What I would like to see happen, though don't expect, is for Schumin to actually acknowledge some of these fair minded proposals rather than crawl and hide like he usually does. JonathonJoseph (talk) 16:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


 * That is a relief. I am glad to know that the 'face' that you have previously presented here is not the real you.


 * Does Schuminweb need to be the one to acknowledge your proposals, or can we consider preparing something to propose to the admin community? I think that you want to address what he represents to you, rather than he himself.


 * If so, can we organize your proposals on this page? I think that you're talking about a Right Relations policy, whereby admins are responsible for more than just being policy lawyers/judges and accept some rudimentary burden to communicate in a compassionate way.  Is that where you are going? –BozoTheScary (talk) 03:48, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Last warning
I want to work with you on this, but you absolutely, positively must stop communicating with user Schuminweb. By continuing to communicate with you while you call him a 'dick' implicates me in your abuse. I am now in a position where I am risking the appearance of condoning your behavior.

This really must be my last warning. If you communicate with him directly or indirectly one more time, I will delete this page and will not reply to you in any way. I am not comfortable communicating with you civilly as if there is nothing wrong while you are abusing him in a way that I find highly objectionable. It is imperative that you control your other 'face' or we will not be able to work together. –BozoTheScary (talk) 03:48, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

You have my word
You have my word, I will make no contact with Schumin for the time being. I was angry about his persistent accusation of vandalism. If you look at the message I wrote before those series of comments you'll see that I was being conciliatary. Why bother, eh?

Anyway, you want to know my proposals. What I would like to know from you is an honest appraisal of the situation. Do you think it possible to clear my name? Especially after my period of personal attacks (Which were not all attributable to me, many innocent people were blocked over that, despite me saying they were innocent)

I feel the only fair course is to clear up a number of issues:

1) I don't care about the article I made. I intended to write it with a friend, we were working on it and were rudely interrupted after several appeals for the belligerent editor (Schumin) to stop. We questioned him further about this, and he subsequently threw wiki policy at us, which means absolutely nothing to newcomers. Frankly it displayed a lack of social skills to be unable to say without the aids of templates what we did wrong. He made no attempt to help, only to punish. Which was wrong.

2) I then began messaging users and started a discussion about the Wikipedia deletion policy. I think you'll discover that my points were not made about my article personally but the way in which admins deal with newcomers making articles, and their direct, often offensive and ineffective method of dealing with newcomers. I have seen it happen before and after I raised this debate.

3) I was banned by 'Woohookitty' for continuing to canvass support for reforming the deletion policy and bringing more accountability to the admin elite. I, like others, was worried that the worlds first stop shop for knowledge was in the hands of a select few incompetants who had no common sense decency to go along with their belligerence.

4) This was the sum and only reason why I was banned.

5) Angry at this, I stopped my petitioning and tried to reason with Schumin with regards to the debate.

6) He ignored me each and every time, and accused me of vandalism regularly in his edit comments.

7) From that moment I launched a periodic guerrila war against Schumin. I mainly went online when I was bored of course, it didn't revolve around my life in any way! What I'm trying to say now is that the guerrila war took on a life of its own when Schumin refused to respond.

8) I am now at a crossroads, mainly bored because I got nowhere but also concerned that all of the suggestions I made, which did garner support, are now regarded as trolling if anyone ever brings them up.

Now you understand the position I am in, do you have suggestions for how a fair solution can be brokered? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.110.130 (talk) 15:18, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

So... 86.45.206.234 (talk) 00:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I've been under the weather. I'm working on a response now.  Thanks for the input.  –BozoTheScary (talk) 20:54, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Resolution
Ultimately, the resolution is yours. You will have to carry it out. You will have to champion it. To do so, you will have to be worthy of your proposals. The face that harrangued Schuminweb is not worthy and commands no respect.

Proposals for you
These are proposals for you to develop a pattern of behavior that is worthy of respect. You almost certainly will not ever earn Schuminweb's respect, but there is a world full of people to whom you can present yourself. This is how you can behave to earn their respect.

This may require that you think very long before hitting the "Save page" key from here on out. No one is immune from emotional response, but respectful people learn to temper their emotions with time or exercise or tea, until they can respond from their heart with gentleness.

Wrong: "You are incompetent."
 * Separate criticism of ideas/work/edits/policy from criticism of people.

Right: "I found your proposal difficult to follow."

Wrong: "Your proposal was stupid."
 * Eschew general criticisms.

Right: "Your proposal does not seem to address recent events."

Wrong: "Be nice, you fuckers!"
 * Model your ideas.

Right: "Don't you see how counterproductive your terse communications are?"

Wrong: "Why can't you just be gentle with the newbies and help them out?"
 * Walk in their shoes.

Right: "Being more friendly will probably save you effort."

–BozoTheScary (talk) 21:13, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposals for admin policy
This is my first try at boiling down your comments into proposals for admins. I've very likely missed your nuances, so please edit away. There's no reason to insist on treating this entirely like a talk page.

Wrong: "I deleted page ABC under policy XYZ."
 * Behave like a facilitator until conflicts arise, only then behave like lawyers and arbiters.

Right: "Page ABC may be deleted under XYZ. Do you need help?"

Wrong: "You have mistreated me. I shall now ban you."
 * Allow one strike for bad behavior.

Right: "Insults are not productive. Would you like to rephrase your complaint?"

–BozoTheScary (talk) 02:22, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

No-one will accept this. I have decided to sit out my three months with patience and come back in September, best to allow the dust to settle. Let Schumin know he has won this battle, but not the war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.206.234 (talk) 00:03, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You're getting ahead of things. First, do these proposals cover your issues?  Second, are these proposals worthy of putting forward?  –BozoTheScary (talk) 03:40, 12 June 2008 (UTC)