User talk:Bravehrt77

File source and copyright licensing problem with File:Seven Kingdoms Band.jpg
Thanks for uploading File:Seven Kingdoms Band.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, then a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a restatement of that website's terms of use of its content, is usually sufficient information. However, if the copyright holder is different from the website's publisher, their copyright should also be acknowledged.

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If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have created [ in your upload log]. Unsourced and untagged files may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If the file is copyrighted under a non-free license (per Fair use) then the file will be deleted 48 hours after 23:32, 11 October 2010 (UTC). If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Eeekster (talk) 23:32, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Problems with upload of File:Seven Kingdoms Band 1.jpg
Thanks for uploading File:Seven Kingdoms Band 1.jpg. You don't seem to have said where the image came from, who created it, or what the copyright status is. We require this information to verify that the image is legally usable on Wikipedia, and because most image licenses require giving credit to the image's creator.

To add this information, click on this link, then click "Edit this page" and add the information to the image's description. If you need help, post your question on Media copyright questions.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:
 * Image use policy
 * Image copyright tags

Thank you for your cooperation. --ImageTaggingBot (talk) 02:06, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Seven Kingdoms (band)
A tag has been placed on Seven Kingdoms (band) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G12 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be a clear copyright infringement. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. This part is crucial: say it in your own words.

If the external website belongs to you, and you want to allow Wikipedia to use the text — which means allowing other people to modify it — then you must verify that externally by one of the processes explained at Donating copyrighted materials. If you are not the owner of the external website but have permission from that owner, see Requesting copyright permission. You might want to look at Wikipedia's policies and guidelines for more details, or ask a question here.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag - if no such tag exists then the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate and adding a hangon tag is unnecessary), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.  Chzz  ► 11:05, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

License tagging for File:Sevenkingdoms.ogg
Thanks for uploading File:Sevenkingdoms.ogg. You don't seem to have indicated the license status of the image. Wikipedia uses a set of image copyright tags to indicate this information; to add a tag to the image, select the appropriate tag from this list, click on this link, then click "Edit this page" and add the tag to the image's description. If there doesn't seem to be a suitable tag, the image is probably not appropriate for use on Wikipedia.

For help in choosing the correct tag, or for any other questions, leave a message on Media copyright questions. Thank you for your cooperation. --ImageTaggingBot (talk) 17:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

File copyright problem with File:7 Kingdoms.jpg
Thank you for uploading File:7 Kingdoms.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the file. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their license and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have created in [ your upload log].

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 20:26, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Seven Kingdoms (band) feedback discussion
'''Hello there. Here is the section I placed indicating WP:BAND notability and why it should qualify for entry.'''

The reason why this band is Notable, is because they have 2 record label releases, - (WP:BAND-5) and are a nationally signed recording artist with a national distribution deal. Nightmare records features such Wikipedia-certified artists such as, but not limited to - Bride, Cage, Circus Maximus, Dream Theater, Eden's Curse, Freedom Call, Joe Stump, Lillian Axe, Rob Rock, Spheric Universe Experience, and Stratovarius. Seven Kingdoms has appeared in several independent music reviews. They have appeared in International publications. They have also been reviewed by the premier review personnel for this industry, Marc Gromen of Brave Words, Bloody Knuckles. (all under WP:BAND-1). They have performed with several WikiPedia-certified International recording artists such as W.A.S.P, Sonata Arctica, Circle II Circle, Stephen Pearcy, The Agonist, and The Abscence. They have been invited to, and showcased at Prog Power, which is the United States premiere event for music of this genre, in Atlanta Georgia in 2010. They have appeared on radio interviews (WP:BAND-12) and currently, have been signed to support International recording artist, and certified-Wikipedia artist, Blind Guardian on their "Sacred Worlds, Songs Divine" North American tour throughout the Sovereign nations of the United States and Canada. - (WP:BAND-4). On their latest release, "Seven Kingdoms", they have featured international notable guest artists Crimson Glory / Leatherwolf singer Wade Black, and guitarist Glen Alvelais of Testament / Forbidden. - (WP:BAND-6) Additionally, they have been placed into regular international rotation on one of the industries premiere online radio stations, Epic Rock Radio.com. - (WP:BAND-11). This qualifies this articles Notability requirements under Wikipedia Notability: Music, articles 1,4,5,6 and 11 and 12.. Statements indicating WP:BAND Notability requirements, and other notable events are referenced below. All images and video used on this page are used with the express permission of Seven Kingdoms and Intromental Management. Permissions have been uploaded to Wikipedia for archiving. Block quotations have also been properly cited. Please discuss, and allow revisions to be made, prior to any CSD deletions being attempted. Thank you.


 * Yes, I will help you. I can't get to it until tomorrow, and I can't make any promises. Cheers, Herostratus (talk) 18:18, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Here is my additional question.
 * First, I ask to please re-read my Notability statement prior to the Admin Deletion Discussion. Next, it seems that people continue to remove the content of my page without any explanation of any kind. I have had to repost the source as others have removed my media 5 times already. I believe I am within my rights to include the content I have posted. I have followed all Wikipedia guidelines for the uploading of the video and audio media. I have obtained the necessary permissions, and, uploaded them to Wikipedia as instructed. It is now up to Wikipedia to process them accordingly. So, my question is, why do people, or are people, allowed to remove this content at will? I know a page can be edited by anyone, but aren't there any standards to respect the wishes of the creator of the page to keep the content intact? I wish to keep all audio and video media intact in this article. Additionally, I have reposted receipt of my permissions uploaded to Wikipedia below. Please advise. Bravehrt77 (talk) 16:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Here is permission reference letter # 1 uploaded to Wikipedia.

From: camden cruz [mailto:@] Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 4:10 PM To: Bravehrt Subject: Re: Request for Wiki permissions

You have the permission from us, Seven Kingdoms, to do as you please for the wikipedia page. Please let me know if you need anything else. I have the copyrite info and whatnot, so yes... WE APPROVE.

-Camden Cruz Camden Cruz Entertainment Florida Powerfest Seven Kingdoms, L.L.C. www.sevenkingdoms.net www.myspace.com/sevenkingdoms

--- On Tue, 10/19/10, Bravehrt  wrote:

From: Bravehrt77 <@> Subject: Request for Wiki permissions To: "camden cruz" <@> Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 3:43 PM

Camden, please read this.

Members of Seven Kingdoms, copyright holders of the materials below, I really liked your link for your live recording session of the “Seven Kingdoms” album found here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwwiH8IHWJg&feature=player_embedded, the video for Stormborn, located here, -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3m8mbvuCbo and the song “Wolf In Sheep’s Clothes” located here -http://www.intromental.org/music/sevenkingdoms.mp3. I found the information on these three pages to be informative and useful. I'd love to use them in a project I'm involved with called Wikipedia, so I'm seeking your permission. Wikipediahttp://www.wikipedia.org is a free encyclopedia that is collaboratively edited by volunteers from around the world. I'd like to include your materials in this articlehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bravehrt77/Seven_Kingdoms_(band). To get a sense of the freedom of Wikipedia, you could even edit this right now, even without formally registering. We can only use your materials if you are willing to grant permission for this under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-Sharealike 3.0 Unported License. This means that anyone will have the right to share and, where appropriate, to update your material. You can read this license in full at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_3.0_Unported_License The license expressly protects authors "from being considered responsible for modifications made by others" while ensuring that authors get credit for their work. There is more information on our copyright policy at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights If you agree, we will credit you for your work in the resulting article's references section by stating that it was based on your work and is used with your permission, and by providing a web link back to: http://www.intromental.org/music/sevenkingdoms.mp3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwwiH8IHWJg&feature=player_embedded and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3m8mbvuCbo Thank you for your time; I look forward to your response. Kindly, Bravehrt77 Sent from my iPhone

Here is the submission letter # 1 to Wikipedia

From: Bravehrt [mailto:@] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 9:48 PM To: 'permissions-commons@wikimedia.org' Subject: Request for Wiki permissions

I am requesting Creative Commons permission for the following 3 files listed below for the following Wikipedia page in development  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bravehrt77/Seven_Kingdoms_%28band%29

http://www.intromental.org/music/sevenkingdoms.mp3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwwiH8IHWJg&feature=player_embedded and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3m8mbvuCbo

Please reply.

Bravehrt77 on Wikipedia

Here is permission reference letter # 2 uploaded to Wikipedia

-Original Message- From: Claus Jensen [mailto:@] Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 4:32 PM To: Bravehrt Subject: RE: Request for permission for Seven Kingdoms photo

Hey Bravehrt77,

you have our permission to use the SEVEN KINGDOMS material from the official homepages: www.intromental.com/sevenkingdoms www.sevenkingdoms.net

All the best, Claus Jensen

--- --- ---

Claus Jensen managing director Intromental Management www.intromental.com --- --- ---

________________________________________ From: Bravehrt [@] Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 9:39 PM To: Claus Jensen Subject: Request for permission for Seven Kingdoms photo

Mr. Claus Jensen of Intromental Management, copyright holders of the materials below,

I really liked your link for your promotional band photo of the group “Seven Kingdoms” located here -  http://www.intromental.com/sevenkingdoms/index.html. I found the information on this page to be informative and useful. I'd love to use it in a project I'm involved with calledWikipedia, so I'm seeking your permission. Wikipedia  http://www.wikipedia.org is a free encyclopedia that is collaboratively edited by volunteers from around the world.

I'd like to include your materials in this articlehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bravehrt77/Seven_Kingdoms_(band). To get a sense of the freedom of Wikipedia, you could even edit this right now, even without formally registering.

We can only use your materials if you are willing to grant permission for this under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-Sharealike 3.0 Unported License. This means that anyone will have the right to share and, where appropriate, to update your material. You can read this license in full at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_3.0_Unported_License

The license expressly protects authors "from being considered responsible for modifications made by others" while ensuring that authors get credit for their work. There is more information on our copyright policy at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights

If you agree, we will credit you for your work in the resulting article's references section by stating that it was based on your work and is used with your permission, and by providing a web link back to:

http://www.intromental.com/sevenkingdoms/index.html

Thank you for your time; I look forward to your response.

Sent from my iPhone

Here is Submission Letter # 2 to Wikipedia

From: Bravehrt [mailto:@] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 9:51 PM To: 'permissions-commons@wikimedia.org' Subject: RE: Request for Wiki permissions

I am requesting Creative Commons permission for the following image listed below for the following Wikipedia page in development  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bravehrt77/Seven_Kingdoms_%28band%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Seven_Kingdoms_Band_1.jpg

Permission is granted below, which encompasses any images from the sites below.

Please reply.

Bravehrt77 on Wikipedia

Ah, OK. You have been very diligent, Braveheart, and I appreciate this. You have been reading Requesting copyright permission I gather. You need to send the reply, if you get one, to Wikipedia via email as described at Requesting copyright permission. This should not be done here in public (and you should erase the email addresses and phone numbers etc in the above text) You send it to permissions-en AT wikimedia DOT org, add this to the image description of the file:, that should save it from deletion. Eventually you will get a "ticket number" and.... well, all this is at Requesting copyright permission. I'll continue later. Herostratus (talk) 02:17, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Non-free content
Hi. I see from the above that you are working on securing usable permission from the website, but I need to advise you that they are not in position to grant copyright to quotes from other media. Wikipedia's policies do not permit extensive quotations of non-free content. Quotations must be used transformatively, as set out in our non-free content policy and guideline. See Copyrights and Non-free content. The non-free content has been removed again and should not be restored. While you may incorporate brief snippets from reliably sourced reviews, these must be incorporated as part of an overall body of original prose and not simply copied and pasted from the sources. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:26, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I have reverted to the last version before you again added in this problematic content. Please make sure that your edits do not restore this material. If necessary, the page may be protected or your account blocked to prevent this material being restored to Wikipedia. It is against our copyright policy. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:47, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I am attempting to make the modifications as we speak. I was not able to save them as you are currently attempting to re-modify the page. Please allow me a moment to finish. Thank you. --Bravehrt77 (talk) 13:47, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The modifications you made incorporated the material again. You may not do this. Modify incrementally without violating the copyright policy, please. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:50, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Looking more deeply into the material, I have to note that even brief quotations from these sources won't be usable unless full information is supplied for them. The name of the source is not enough to verify the accuracy of these quotes or to meet our non-free content policy. For example, you give the name of Metal-Temple magazine, but the full details on the origin of the quote come from . Please make sure you provide original details for the brief quotations you do implement. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:55, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Again, I am working on ensuring these are correct. I would appreciate some time to allow for these corrections to be made. Thanks. I do understand that each source is "free" per se, and needs to be truncated and the links corrected so they can be Fair Use. Thanks --Bravehrt77 (talk) 13:47, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Certainly; there's no rush. :) But if you need the full quotes with which to work, please do so in a word processor program or other media so that the content is not published here before it complies with policy. It's a simple matter to import it once its ready. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:14, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I updated everything. I checked all my links, and as far as I am able to see, each one of them is a direct reference to what I have listed in my References. If any of them is still incorrect, I may have mis-ordered them, but each, by themselves, are verifiable. Please advise if I need to reorder, or, if all looks well. Much appreciated. --Bravehrt77 (talk) 13:47, 29 October 2010
 * On the way. :) They're brief enough, but I'm afraid you're still using them as bald quotations. :/ As I noted above, they have to be used "transformatively"--meaning you can't just copy them, but have to have some reason. They should be incorporated as part of a prose contribution. For example, you might say something like, "Response to Brothers of the Night was positive. Website The Metal Crypt commented that the album was particularly likely to appeal to fans of Power Metal "who like some meat on their music"." Your references need to be inline immediately after each quote. If you use the same source twice, you can save some typing time by giving the reference a "name". If you type, the next time you use it, you only need to type  , and it will "stack" them into one number. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:59, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok thank you. My 1st Wiki. I'm learning. I will try to update them. I believed using a truncated quote constituted fair use, if it was attributed correctly, even if it was quoted exactly. At least that was my takeaway from reading the Non Free section on Text? I also originally did put the ref after the name of the article, but, since Iincorporated them into the review section, I thought, that was the Wikipedia standard, that the Review table referred back to the name of the article?

This is what confuses me in regards to Non-Free Text "Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea. Copyrighted text that is used verbatim must be attributed with quotation marks or other standard notation, such as block quotes."

So my question is, if this is the guideline, and I've done that, why must the quote be used transformitively? Where does it say in this that it must be done so? I'm still confused.

--Bravehrt77 (talk) 13:47, 29 October 2010


 * You haven't done that; you've only pasted quotes. They aren't being used to "illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea." You haven't made a point, suggested context or described a point of view. They're just blurbs. This approach is crafted with fair use in mind, as one of the tests of fair use is its purpose and character. Incorporating quotations into prose, it's much easier to make them transformative than derivative--the former is permitted; the latter is not. To back up to your first question, all quotations must have citations immediately after their use. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 16:14, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I believe I have by posting the quotes directly under the header which is attributed to them, aka - Album 1 reviews immediately followed by the quotes. I think, by natural reading, it's logical to understand the context of what follows is in direct reference to Album 1 being reviewed. Is it neccesary to enter another statement which will only add as a reference back to the header of each section? EX - These quotations are in direct reference to Album 1 being reviewed. To me, that's overly wordy, and makes no sense. I think it's fair to assume the reader is fully capable of understanding the context of the quotations which they fall under. If this is absolutely neccesary to include this double wording, I will do so. --Bravehrt77 (talk) 13:47, 29 October 2010
 * It is absolutely necessary to incorporate it into prose. As long as it otherwise meets policies and guidelines, it does not matter to me what prose you incorporate it into, but transformative use is essential to meet WP:NFC. You can't just incorporate non-free content; you must demonstrate valid reason for doing so. --Moonriddengirl (talk)16:30, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This is still not transformative: . I appreciate the work you've put into truncating the quotes, but the quotes need to be incorporated in a body of prose. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 17:37, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I am not trying to be disrespectful here, but I re-read the information on Non-Free text, and I still do not see any requirement to modify or re-write any truncated quotes, unless they overly quote, which I agree with, and have since corrected. I have properly refernced the fact that each prceeding quote on the page is the work of the properly attributed author. This should be sufficient. In fact, according to the Text section, it clearly states they are now in compliance as usable works of Fair Use. I would prefer, at this point, to have the opinion of another Administrator, as I do not intend to completely re-write each and every remaining quote on this page as I am believing you are suggesting. I have clearly quoted, blockquoted, cited, truncated, and am in full compliance with Fair Use in the page's current form under WP:Non-Free- Text. Each article is properly referenced, verifiable, and cited. Additionally they have all been put into the proper context. I am not re-writing each quote, and see no reason to do so, as that would dilute the purpose of an actual "album review", under section 8. of the WP Non Free article. --Bravehrt77 (talk)
 * Fine. I'll ask another administrator to take a look. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 18:36, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Please do. Here is another Wiki-approved album review for you to take a look at, which makes direct quotes, and was approved to illustrate my point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honesty_(Alex_Parks_album) --Bravehrt77 (talk)
 * That's not a wiki-approved album review, I'm afraid. (Furthermore, the quotes don't meet citation requirements, so they've been removed.) Wikipedia has considerable content that has never undergone review and that may be inappropriate to use as a model. Unfortunately, since our content is open for editing by anyone at any time, you can't really guarantee that any given article is a good model at any given moment, but "featured articles" are your best bet. If you wish to see an album article that has gone through peer approval process, see, for example, The Seduction of Ingmar Bergman. You can see the handling of this particular kind of content in the "reception" section: The Seduction of Ingmar Bergman. For another example, see God Hates Us All and its reception section. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 18:47, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I fully understand that, however, I still fail to see, where, on that Non-Free page, that it clearly states anywhere that quotions, if truncated and properly referenced, are not available to use. It does not mention, anywhere, that I can see at least, that they must be reconfigured in any way They say the words "direct quote". I have followed these guidelines, and still believe I have done so correctly and stand by what I had previously stated. This is a review of particular person's words and thoughts, and I do not wish to change, or modify them, in any form, other than what I have already complied with to make them correct. To do so, would dilute the entire article, and as per section 8, I believe this will allow me to use them, in their current form. As such, if there are any additional concerns, please allow me to work with a different Administrator. Thanks. --Bravehrt77 (talk)
 * I have asked another administrator to weigh in on the non-free content as you requested, but I remain an uninvolved administrator here and may continue to act as an uninvolved administrator if there are additional concerns. Section 8 does not refer to text, but, specifically, to "Other non-free content—including all copyrighted images, audio and video clips, and other media files that lack a free content license". I see that another contributor has already removed the content as a non-free content concern. That you do not wish to change or modify in any form does not mean they will not be changed or modified, I'm afraid. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 19:05, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

2nd opinion

 * Hi Bravehrt77, I've come to this page because you requested the opinion of another administrator. The way that you have truncated the quotes is a very significant improvement. But quotes - no matter how long or short - have to serve a purpose. In the US, that purpose include "criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research". Wikipedia's criteria are a narrower still - the quotes have to be "to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea." (see WP:NFC). It is impossible to do any of those things without accompanying prose to contextualise the quotes used. What point is being made by the quotes if there is no accompanying prose to explain them? I'd also point out the relevant project guide says in respect of the critical reception of an album: "The bulk of the information should be in prose format". I'd suggest looking at a number of the articles in Category:FA-Class Album articles for some examples. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:19, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for replying. Here is my point, these are your guidelines for this formatting. This is taken directly from the page she has been referencing. Please show me, on this page, by referencing the below information, where I am in error, and I will comply.

My point
Please show me, on this page, where I am in error, and am not following guidelines, and I will comply. These below stated, are your own criterion for using direct quotations. I believe I have complied with all listed requirements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content

Policy Articles and other Wikipedia pages may, in accordance with the guideline, use brief verbatim textual excerpts from copyrighted media, properly attributed or cited to its original source or author, and specifically indicated as direct quotations via quotation marks,, or a similar method. Section 8 Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding Acceptable use The following cases are a non-exhaustive list of established examples of acceptable use of non-free media on Wikipedia. Note that the use of such media must still comply with the Non-free content criteria and provide rationales and licensing information.

TextBrief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea. Copyrighted text that is used verbatim must be attributed with quotation marks or other standard notation, such as block quotes. Any alterations must be clearly marked, i.e. [brackets] for added text, an ellipsis (...) for removed text, and emphasis noted after the quotation as "(emphasis added)" or "(emphasis in the original)". Extensive quotation of copyrighted text is prohibited.


 * The part that is causing problems is "may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea." There are three ideas there, each of which I'll discuss in turn. (a) Illustrate a point A point can't be illustrated by listing quotes - the quotes make no point without prose to contextualise it. (b) Establish context - not relevant here. (c) Attribute a point of view or idea - there is no point of view or idea being attributed by the quotes. You've attributed the quotes to their sources. But the quotes in turn need to be the source for a point of view or idea that the article makes. The article makes no critical comment whatsoever on the albums, so the quotes aren't used to attribute anything.--Mkativerata (talk) 19:34, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok I am starting to get more clear, however, aren't the point of the quotes themselves self explanatory? To simply review the album. That's the point. To me, this is minutuae, every quote is a person's review of the album in question. Does this need further explanation? I can add some nouns in the prefacing comments that I made that preceeds the quotations, but, to me at least, each quote is simply self explanatory - a review of an album, so I see no need to add words to contextulaize it further. It really is common sense. Additionally, nothing you have stated says it is unacceptable to use direct quotes as long as a point is being made. If that is what the hold up here is, I will do so.
 * Each quote is an individual quote though - they each need to be used individually in accordance with WP:NFC. So I'd write prose something like this:

"The band's Seven Kingdoms album of 2010 received a positive review from Mark Gromen of Metal Asylum, who commented the band was 'certainly one to watch'. Dangerdog criticised the band's attempts to add 'modern dirty vocals' but otherwise recommended the album."
 * The other point to make is that there is no need to use all the quotes - the point can be made with only a selection of them. The examples in the category I pointed to above illustrate this. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:50, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

That makes more sense to me, you've been very helpful and I appreciate you providing examples as this is my 1st Wiki. Can you please restore my work, and I will edit it according to your statements? I don't have a current copy on file.
 * The content can still be retrieved from the article's history. See Help:Page history. In this case, the content is all still available in this version. To retrieve it, you need only click "edit" on that page and then select and copy the content you need. Please be careful not to save, though! That would undo some of the tables that have been subsequently edited to the article by another contributor. Once that content is in your clipboard, you can paste it into a current edit of the page and manipulate it accordingly. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:23, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Please stop
Could you please stop adding Non Free Content, putting the name of the site who gave the review before it is not enough. Mo ainm ~Talk  21:26, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

What, exactly, is the difference between what you did, and what I did? You said the same thing, but used the word "opined". You still used the exact quote. What is the difference? In case you did not realize this, you CAN use quotations as long as a point is made. I did that. I formed a complete sentence, exactly as you did, and referenced in the quote, just like you. How about you stop blocking and erasing things and going by the established guidelines that DO say direct quotations, with points, are acceptable use ? I really do think you admins are going off the handle about this.

Would you please get off my page for a while? I am attempting to edit it in the format which I am intending to create. Thank you. --Bravehrt77 (talk) 13:47, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If you are talking about the Seven Kingdoms (band) then no as it is not your page have a read of WP:OWN. Mo ainm  ~Talk  17:56, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I created this page, spent hours developing it, and am currently editing it. You have nothing to say, and only are serving to be an annyong person attempting to block me from doing so. I am the creator. I am editing it as per the content I am intending to publish. If you continue to deliberate remove or block me from publsiing the content I am creating, I will, most definitely, report you to administration for harrassment. --Bravehrt77 (talk) 13:47, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * On every page we have this message "If you do not want your writing to be edited, used, and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here..." So just so it is clear as I don't think your read the link I provided for you this is also what it say "All Wikipedia content is open to being edited collaboratively. Wikipedia contributors are editors, not authors, and no one, no matter how skilled, has the right to act as if they are the owner of a particular article." So if we work together we can get this article at least resembling a wikipedia article.  Mo ainm  ~Talk  18:21, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Explain
Could you explain to me what you are trying to do on the article? Mo ainm ~Talk  18:10, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

No I will not. I am not explaining anything to you. I do not need your assistance, and am complying with all Wikipedia guidelines. If you stop deliberately blocking me, or continously hovering over my editing, I will be finished editing. --Bravehrt77 (talk) 13:47, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

You are doing nothing to further the process of creating the page. Regardless of what Wikipedia may say, yes, while it is a place where other people "contribute" You are not contributing anything. You are blocking my attempts at including the content that I am intending to publish. And, further, I do have rights to publish the content I wish to publish on the site I created, as well as anyone else. I will continue to publish them, and remove the unhelpful editing that you are deliberately preventing me from accomplishing. By the way, this is a talk page, not the page itself, and therefore, and I do believe, I have the right to my opinion and right of expression. --Bravehrt77 (talk) 13:47, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I am trying to help you here but you don't seem to wan't help. Have you looked at other articles on the various bands we have here? Mo ainm  ~Talk  18:35, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

November 2010
Welcome to Wikipedia. The recent edit you made to Seven Kingdoms (band) has been reverted, as it appears to be unconstructive. Use the sandbox for testing; if you believe the edit was constructive, ensure that you provide an informative edit summary. You may also wish to read the introduction to editing. Thank you. ” TeLeS  ( PT @ L C G ) 18:20, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Tags
Why did you remove the tags from the article? Mo ainm ~Talk  20:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Can I ask you something? 3 things. Are you sitting there, at a computer screen staring at the screen monitoring what I do? It definitely seems like it. Are you the cyber police? And 2, as you've said, it's a free page, anyone can edit it, and I did. 3. I'd rather not, and don't really want to, explain myself to you. You do not own the page either, and really, I'm finding your iron handedness to be very unhelpful, and I am officially requesting to work with another administrator, and, if I do not get the assistance of a different administrator, I am going to email the entire list of administrators until another responds. Pleade do not ask me any further questions, or comments, as I will not respond to you, any further, again. Thank you.


 * You can find all the administrators you want here at ANI but you still need to provide a rational as to why you removed the tags because what you are saying now is that the lead is perfect and doesn't need any work per WP:LAYOUT that the article complies with the manual of style and that it is no longer an orphan.  Mo ainm  ~Talk  20:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Image
Hi. We need a link to where File:7 Kingdoms.jpg can be found on or. If it's not on those websites, you should replace it with one that is. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 21:07, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Article development
Stopping by to ask about the images, I couldn't help but notice that you still seem a bit unfamiliar with the environment on Wikipedia. The community welcomes the input of all contributors, but there are certain basic styleguides and standards that are determined by community consensus. I realize that you have your own certain way that you would like to handle this content, but unfortunately as Wikipedia is not a private webhost the content will be brought into line with those standards. For example, your use of "block quotes" does not accord with the manual of style on quotations. These are reserved for lengthy quotations; quotations that are under four lines in length (as most copyrighted content will be) or shorter than a full paragraph are imbedded in sentences. When you do use "block quotes", you do not put your introductory text within the block quote. It is separate.

I listed for you above a couple of "featured articles" with good review sections that you might use as a model. They demonstrate that way that such content is handled in accordance with our styleguides and standards pretty well: The Seduction of Ingmar Bergman, God Hates Us All. You can see a couple of "block quotes" in use in the "featured article" on Sex Pistols. Note how sparingly they are used; that article is quite long and well-developed, but it only has three block quotes.

The "Notable events" section is also likely to develop comment at some point. Most of Wikipedia's content should be presented in prose form as paragraphs. Occasionally, lists are appropriate, but generally the community stance is that prose is more readable and hence better for our audience. That section also includes "embedded links"; these are also against community standards. See this section for more on embedded links.

Not knowing how articles are developed and what community standards may be is not a problem. We encourage new editors to be bold within reason, trusting that as they grow familiar with the environment, they will learn the ins and outs. The model under which we operate presumes that other editors will help develop the article.

In terms of tag removal, tags are placed to invite other contributors to help address article issues and also to inform those who are already editing the article what those issues may be. Tags are not removed unless the issue is resolved or unless consensus is reached to remove them. If there are tags on the article with which you disagree and other editors object to their removal, you should explain your reasons, generally at the article's talk page. This is the first stage of dispute resolution. Cordial conversation keeps the project functioning smoothly, which is essential.

If you cannot come to consensus and wider feedback is necessary, there are many different fora around Wikipedia where wider participation can be sought (though we always have to be careful to avoid "canvassing"--looking for people specifically that we expect to agree with us). But you cannot request to work with other editors or administrators just because you do not like the answers you are receiving. Sometimes consensus will go with you on Wikipedia and sometimes it will not, but we are required to foster an atmosphere of cooperation, even when we do disagree. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 21:41, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

My point to Moonriddengirl
I believe that you're not getting MY point here. I believe, specifically, that this person is deliberately interfering and stripping my postings. I also believe, that you, and he, have different interpretations of the rules. Please allow me to illustrate - In case you have not read this entire page, please read this. This post came directly from another one of your administrators...

'''Each quote is an individual quote though - they each need to be used individually in accordance with WP:NFC. So I'd write prose something like this:

The band's Seven Kingdoms album of 2010 received a positive review from Mark Gromen of Metal Asylum, who commented the band was "certainly one to watch". Dangerdog criticised the band's attempts to add "modern dirty vocals" but otherwise recommended the album.

The other point to make is that there is no need to use all the quotes - the point can be made with only a selection of them. The examples in the category I pointed to above illustrate this. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:50, 29 October 2010 (UTC)'''

What I am attempting to say here is, that's EXACTLY what I did, verbatim, and this Mo Anim person immediately stripped them before I had a chance to even breathe. My 2nd point is, in an "open community" as you are stating, I really don't feel the need to explain myself to him. I do not have or hold any express purpose or agreement to need to work directly with him. I have the right, notwithstanding that I created it, to edit this page as much, or if not more, than anyone else here, including both of you. Next, if he continues to strip the content I am posting, content that is within the rules, which it IS then HE or she, whoever they are - are bordering on WP:Vandalizing, in my opinion. The content I posted was fair, and proper.

Lastly, I really do believe, as other administrators do not have any specific problem with how this layout is done, then by all means, put it to a consensus. It would seem that the only 2 persons trying to deconstruct the page are you, and this other person. Where one person says this is perfectly fine, you and he destroy. So, I do believe, regardless if we agree or not, you people have your own internal conflicting opinions of what is and is not proper. I do not have a problem, per se, with disagreement. The administrator Mkativerata has been extremely helpful and provided specific examples that I was attempting to emulate before Mo Anim completely removes them. The reason I asked for the assitance of other administrators is, pure and simple, I believe you are incorrect, and, you will not stop trying to modify this page to your own personal, and I believe, incorrect interpretations of the rules. I believe if other admins assist, things will be made much more clear.

My own personal take on this is, I have read many - many pages, and really do not wish to look at your example of "prose". I did not come here to write fantasy novels. I do not feel an encyclopedia, by it's very definition, is the subject of "prose" It's the definition of illustrated and conveyed facts. If one wants prose, read a Harlequin or a novel.

In the end, I stand by the things I have said, have complied with what was stated. Further, the use of block quotes as you referenced was done, as you know, when the article had quoted the entire length of the statement. That has since changed.

The very last thing I wish to say to you is, in all the continued postings you have said to me, you have not once, in any way, shape, or form, conveyed clearly to me, that YOU DO fully understand, that DIRECT QUOTES CAN be used in Wikipedia pages. NOWHERE -anywhere- does it say on that Non Free page that they are NOT allowed or MUST be used in "prose". Your own administrators have conveyed as much, as long as it is used to contextually make a point, which, it HAS, by using the provided example your administrator gave to me, which I posted content EXACTLY like this, which Mo Anim summarily and promptly deleted. One of you is wrong. Pick one. I believe it's both of you, since quotes ARE allowed.

Since I do believe that both of you are incorrect, and are the only 2 persons attempting to monitor this page 24/7, I challenge YOU to allow this to be subject to open discussion as I will not, re-contextualize this page to suit your own personal judgments about what this page must be according to your own vision and interpretations further. Meaning, I will not change it further. I am well within my rights, and usage and following all established guidelines. I will not turn this page into "prose". That's not what and Encyclopedia is designed for, and not what this page will be. --Bravehrt77 (talk)


 * Non-free text must be used transformatively. I told you this; User:Mkativerata told you this. I am very familiar with Wikipedia's approach to copyrighted content. But you are continuing to misunderstand the project. You say, "I have the right, notwithstanding that I created it, to edit this page as much, or if not more, than anyone else here, including both of you." You do not have any more rights over this page than anyone else on Wikipedia. Any editor has an equal say in the development of this article as you do, and their word has more weight than yours when it is supported by policies and guidelines, as these policies and guidelines represent the will of the community. Moreover, your statements here reflect a profound misunderstanding of the development of this article. You say, "you will not stop trying to modify this page to your own personal, and I believe, incorrect interpretations of the rules." I have modified this article twice since you reduced the length of the quotations--once, to restore content that somebody else had removed in prose form (as you were told it needed to be): here. And once to remove the sound file, for which we have no permission. The article has, however, been modified by several other contributors who have not spoken to you who are attempting to address the problems which were tagged. This is the way Wikipedia works. You may place content on Wikipedia, but what happens to it after it gets here is up to the community.


 * You have not yet identified the source page of the image. Perhaps you missed that question above. If you can't provide a link to the licensed websites wherein this picture appears, it will be deleted. If it does not appear on those pages, you need to replace with an image that does. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 01:23, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * You're obviously actively editing the article. That's fine. Before you wrap up, you should go to the image page at File:7 Kingdoms.jpg and place the url of the page where it appears under "source." Just to be clear: if you don't provide a link to where on those two websites the image appears, it will be deleted within 12 hours since the e-mail correspondence with the copyright holder is complete. Alternatively, you can upload over it any of the images that do appear on the band's website, but please remember to provide a link under "source" to the specific url where the image appears. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 01:39, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I have placed a hold tag on this, I have uploaded proper permission request with Wikipedia, and in the OTRS team is notified. The picture in question is non commercial, and is a standard photograph. The owner of the photograph has responded to her, and now it is her responsibility to update the ticket on the file. I believe, this concludes my need for any remaining permission, on any media, on this page. The file is not scheduled to be deleted until November 5th. I believe she will respond by then. Thank you for your concern. --Bravehrt77 (talk)


 * I am the individual with whom you have been corresponding via e-mail. I have removed my name from the above, as I do not identify by it on Wikipedia. We have a general policy about privacy on Wikipedia. Please call me Moonriddengirl here. I came to ask you for the source of the image precisely so that I could place the tag on the image page, but I cannot find it on the two pages that are specifically indicated in the release. Is it on those websites? If not, we need a separate release. That the image is non-commercial has no bearing. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 01:46, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Then what I am trying to explain is, it is a "simple photograph" you are not going to be able to find it on either of those pages. I have sent the email to Camden that references the link in question, he has responded, and sent you an updated email, I believe recently, which grants permission for this digital photograph, that he, himself, took, and grants permission to. It is not the property of Claus at Intromental Management. It is Camden's private property. --Bravehrt77 (talk)


 * Thank you. I've received his e-mail and as soon as he gives me clarification on license will note it. Since it's under discussion, there's no rush; we don't delete content when usable license is almost certainly forthcoming, only when it becomes clear it will not be. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 01:58, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Clarified; no more concerns about the image. The permission is logged. Thanks. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 02:05, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. Can you please certify the last remaining image, Camden Cruz.jpg that I have uploaded also? I may plan on using that at a later time. It is contained, in a Flash file, on the sevenkingdoms.net\media page. --Bravehrt77 (talk)


 * Sure; it's done. While looking for it, I also noticed File:Seven Kingdoms Band 1.jpg, which I've updated as well. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 10:44, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
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