User talk:Brightideasguru

Hello Victoria! welcome to Wikipedia!

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I hope you stick around and keep contributing to Wikipedia. Drop us a note at New user log. If you need help, you can drop a note on my talk page or use New contributors' help page. You can also type   on your user page, and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. utcursch | talk 15:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Victoria Davis
I just read your blog entry. If you feel that the subject is not notable enough for Wikipedia, you can tag the article with. If you are sure that the subject is certainly not notable, you can propose deletion. Hope this helps. utcursch | talk 15:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I guess my biggest problem is that although the winner of Miss USA may mean she's a notable person, I have to question why the proliferation of such arguably trivial information as the winners of the Miss Teen USA pageant at the state level would even be included in Wikipedia. - perhaps the USA winner - but although it is important NOW (which would make it news) in 10 years it will be trivia unless some of these ladies go on to do great things. And then you have the duplication of names - what if someone more notable has the same name. I've just never seen what I would consider "trivial" information included in Wikipedia. There is a whole project dedicated to it. It just seems to belong in Wiki News. brightideasguru | talk

Per previous AFD's and general discussion it has been established that winners of Miss Teen USA, Miss USA & Miss America state pageants and those who have competed in the national pageants are notable. If you have another Victoria Davis you would like to write an article about, you should create a new article, not tack the information on to an existing article. -- PageantUpdater  •  talk  |  contribs  |  esperanza  01:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

And I am more than upset about your blog article. If you have a problem with me, address it to me directly, not on a pulpit. In reply to your comments on that blog: a) As I have said above, state titleholders and those who have competed in the national pageants are notable. b) The information is not trivia. These women compete for the state title, sometimes against over one hundred other girls, reign for one year making appearances and appearing in news media etc and compete in a live, nationally televised pageant. Once they pass on their crown they are not simply forgotton as you suggest - they are part of the history of the state and national pageants and deserve recognition for their role in this history. c) If you believe yourself notable enough to have a wikipedia article (and generally you should not create one about yourself anyway), you should create a new article and not tack your information on to an existing article. d) I have never offered any award to anyone. I have, however, been awarded two barnstars for my contributions to wikipedia in this very field. -- PageantUpdater  •  talk  |  contribs  |  esperanza  01:39, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

In the discussion that you had it was with other people interested in pageants. However, we will have to agree to disagree with this - the notability means that a person OVER TIME has notability, your information would more than likely qualify as news. Also, since some of these girls appear to be minors - do you have releases to post their information. Yes, I know that I cannot create an article on myself, however, when we have people with the same name there are issues. I would in no way disparage a person with a pageant - I also did beauty pageants myself and know that there is a lot of effort. I myself have won many awards in education - does that not make me notable as well. However, this is not about me. This is about being consistent across all fields, which it is apparent that wikipedia is not. As a leading teacher of wikis in the classroom, the shortcomings of wikipedia are becoming glaringly apparent. And I did address this personally on the talk page of the page that I edited (which did not have a response) and several other places. Victoria A. Davis 17:50, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact that they are minors has absolutely zilch to do with this issue. As I said on the talk page of the article in question, they articles will be expanded over the next year... the vast majority contain further biographical details but I can only work with what has been released by the state pageants.  If you would like to create an article about yourself, start one at Victoria Davis (edublogger) or whatever you call yourself as is the custom. I don't care whether you addressed me personally, that blog entry and personal attack on me was uncalled for. --  PageantUpdater  •  talk  |  contribs  |  esperanza  19:06, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Victoria on this one. These items, although newsworthy now, will not be so in 2 or 3 years.  These names, as well as many others, will be forgotten.  If that's the case, perhaps at that time, the articles will be marked for deletion.  I've been through the article creation route for people, who in my opinion were more notable than pageant contestants were, only to have them marked as AFD and disappear.  That's part of life at wikipedia.  --Renrenren 02:41, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The fact that they are minors has a lot to do with the issue. Also, if you do not respond in the mechanism given, then what am I to think or say?  I have followed the rules of Wikipedia and have been civil in all of my dealings.  I am a teacher who focuses on the use of wikis and have advocated the use of wikis in the classroom.  I do my best to work with ethics and with kindness.  The information posted on your profile is public.  You and I will have to agree to disagree  on the nature of the information included in wikipedia. I will continue to remain civil, as I feel that I have even on my blog post.  I am not going to create an article on myself.  This is not about whether I deserve inclusion but about being even handed and fair in the inclusion of people in Wikipedia.  Standards should be used and adhered to.  I know many people with many more accolades who have been deleted from wikipedia.  I just do not feel that winning one teen pageant should warrant inclusion for the reasons stated.  I feel a little differently about the adult pageant because: 1) They are adults, and 2) the winners have to create a platform and travel throughout their state for it.  There are people who would also feel that that is trivial.  But this is not about me.  This is about seeing if the Wikipedia model works.  I am not touching the other person's bio at this time.  At this point I disagree.  And I will be watching this entire experience and chronicling my experience with wikis on my blog.  I am sorry if you feel offended.  I have reread it and do not feel anything was a personal attack but rather just a quotation of what you are doing in Wikipedia.  I applaud you for having a hobby.  I only take issue with the wisdom and notability of including minor teens in wikipedia.  Good luck with your editing, we will see what the other editors have to say about this issue and if indeed the wikipedia model works.  Victoria A. Davis 20:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Re: Questions I cannot find answers for
I have never been involved in discussions on beauty pageants winners and I am not from USA, so I can't say much on this topic. There is no age restriction related to biographies.

In the past, I've personally nominated many articles for deletion, some of which survived deletion. I still feel that they are not worthy of being included in Wikipedia, but there are many others who feel otherwise. One should not feel bad about it -- Wikipedia is run by users, including me and you. If a majority of the people feel that the state winners of Mrs. teen USA are notable enough for Wikipedia, probably they are. If you feel otherwise, you can always nominate the article for deletion. It doesn't amount to waging a "war" -- it will just lead to some discussion.

Let me also point out that past discussions are in your favor: Articles for deletion/Calley Anne Slagle. The article on Miss Idaho USA Calley Anne Slagle was deleted -- there was no claim to notability apart from the state teen title.

All of us would want to have a single notability standard that can be applied to all the articles. But, such a standard can never be agreed upon. We do have guidelines WP:BIO, but it's not policy -- just a guideline. The issue of notability has always been discussed hotly, but the debate can never result in a 100% consensus -- only some essays: Pokémon test, Inclusion is not an indicator of notability.

Regarding your second query -- in case of people with same names, disambiguation pages are created. For eg. Bhupinder Singh. In cases where one of the person is considerably more famous than others, the page is redirected to the person on that article and a separate disambiguation page is created. For eg. Gandhi redirects to Mahatma Gandhi, which has a link to the disambiguation page: Gandhi (disambiguation). The disambiguation page has links to articles on other Gandhis -- Indira Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi, Sonia Gandhi etc.

I hope your unpleasant experience doesn't scare you off Wikipedia. utcursch | talk 13:18, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no transwiki template for Wikinews. Anyways, I don't think putting such a template will work in this case. I'll try to trigger a discussion on this subject on weekend -- I'm a little busy on weekdays. utcursch | talk 11:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The deletion of Calley Ann Slagle is a poor example... Slagle never won a state title (merely inherited it) and never competed in a nationally television pageant. The Teens are notable for the same reason the Miss delegates are and there is no reason to separate the two. --  PageantUpdater  •  talk  |  contribs  |  esperanza  09:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Either way, you are basing your argument on being a stateholder of the title. I believe there is a distinct difference between the Miss and the Teen delegates.  Since there was only discussion at the pageant level, I believe this is a Wikipedia wide question so that things are kept comparable. There are many people who have won awards and hold the title for a year because of the work they have done. The International Edublog Awards are one example.  The winners there have done much work and hold the International title for  ayear, however, they do not seem worthy for inclusion in Wikipedia.  This is about keeping Wikipedia consistent and is a much larger issue than pageants.  I will learn how to escalate this discussion to the entire wikipedia forum so that the entire issue can be discussed there.  Victoria A. Davis 00:19, 8 January 2007 (UTC)